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> Karma is untrue or useless, A serious discussion

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TSpuchongite
post Apr 4 2020, 06:10 PM, updated 2d ago

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I can perform a simple experiment to either disprove karma or to render it useless as the moral compass of our morality.

Please ask if you are interested.

I will start off the discussion by asking this question below.

Is karmic action over our next life guaranteed ?

This is a yes or no question.

If yes, it means one can expect to receive the karmic action of his past life.

If yes, then I can design a simple experiment to disprove karma.

If no, if means one might or might not receive the karmic retribution of his deeds in the past life. It simply lacks guarantees or predictability.

Think about the implication if you say no. It then means if one's reason to do good is because he wants to break the bad retribution, but since this retribution is not guaranteed, then it becomes bloody useless.

Please debate if you agree with me, or ask questions.

This post has been edited by puchongite: Apr 4 2020, 06:37 PM
TSpuchongite
post Apr 4 2020, 06:23 PM

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In this post I want to explain the experiment to disprove karmic action.

The experiment is pretty simple.

Just collect 50 samples of living things. To avoid human morality issue, do it on ants.

Randomly split 50 ants of the sample into 25,25 and put them in two different containers.

Container A you spray insecticide on it. Container B you do not.

The outcome is pretty predictable. No matter how you choose to split the sample, ants in container A always ended up dead. That means irrespective of whatever their past lives, they are made to die. Those in container A are guaranteed to die, it does not matter what their past lives were.

Therefore karmic action of the past life cannot be guaranteed. The real cause of their death is actually the spray of insecticides on them. Their past lives have no part to play.

Some posters argued that isn't the selection the ants for container A a karma cause ?

Yeah, you are right. But that is present life karma. It means present life karma can swap out past life karma. This experiment's objective is to disprove past life karma, and not present life karma.

Just do the same thought experiment using human. Then you will see that karma is either untrue or useless.

If you argue that no matter how I prepare select the sample of ants for container A, it will not be random, past life karma of the ants have somehow impact the choice of the selection, then read this post #69 :-

https://forum.lowyat.net/topic/4937032/+68

Then you are saying there is no randomness in the real world.

You are then making a tall claim which go against science, which based on randomness of sampling to achieve objectivity of scientific experiment and the conclusion.

For example then, we cannot use clinical trial of a medication to arrive at the efficacy of a medicine.

This post has been edited by puchongite: Apr 8 2020, 10:36 PM
k2.ekAY
post Apr 4 2020, 06:45 PM

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This post has been edited by k2.ekAY: Jun 28 2020, 01:46 PM
TSpuchongite
post Apr 4 2020, 06:53 PM

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QUOTE(k2.ekAY @ Apr 4 2020, 06:45 PM)
here's a good video on karma & rebirth explained by a respectable bikkhu.

before you start any thought experiments to prove/disprove, perhaps you can spend some time watching the dhamma talk video below to understand the concept in buddhist context a little better smile.gif


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Is karmic action guaranteed ? Does it have predictability ? Just answer these simple questions.

This post has been edited by puchongite: Apr 4 2020, 06:58 PM
k2.ekAY
post Apr 4 2020, 07:05 PM

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This post has been edited by k2.ekAY: Mar 27 2021, 08:11 PM
TSpuchongite
post Apr 4 2020, 07:08 PM

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QUOTE(k2.ekAY @ Apr 4 2020, 07:05 PM)
yes. karmic action not necessarily only actions performed through speech or bodily act will guarantee karmic result/fruit (karma vipaka)

to be precise, karma is a volitional action. meaning it is an intention formed first in your mind, then leads to bodily action and verbal action.

and the fruition will ripen depending on whether certain conditions are met. a ripen karma is called karma vipaka.
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In other words you are saying it is not guaranteed. And hence it is useless, it lacks predictability.
k2.ekAY
post Apr 4 2020, 07:18 PM

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This post has been edited by k2.ekAY: Mar 27 2021, 08:11 PM
TSpuchongite
post Apr 4 2020, 07:35 PM

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QUOTE(k2.ekAY @ Apr 4 2020, 07:18 PM)
it is predictable, but it's almost impossible for ordinary folks for you and i to predict the exact fruition of ones karma, unless you're fully enlighten  smile.gif

yet if certain conditions are met with the karmic action performed, a guaranteed fruition may come.

if you're really interested to understand more, maybe you can start reading the actual words of the buddha's teachings on karma here:
MN 136: Maha Kammavibhanga Sutta - https://suttacentral.net/mn136/en/sujato
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That's the definition of no predictability, unless you could exactly define the "conditions."




k2.ekAY
post Apr 4 2020, 08:38 PM

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This post has been edited by k2.ekAY: Mar 27 2021, 08:11 PM
TSpuchongite
post Apr 4 2020, 08:52 PM

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QUOTE(k2.ekAY @ Apr 4 2020, 08:38 PM)
my bad, perhaps the should say it is not guaranteed unless conditions are met.  blush.gif

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It is the same !

1) A will happen unless B condition is met

or

2) A will not happen unless B condition is met,

Both are lacking of predictability unless you could clearly define what is exactly the B 'conditions'.

Have you have a clear definition of B ?




Spear2
post Apr 4 2020, 09:07 PM

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QUOTE(k2.ekAY @ Apr 4 2020, 08:38 PM)
my bad, perhaps i should say it is not guaranteed unless conditions are met.  blush.gif

conditionality, karma and rebirth are inter-related, they cannot exist independently.

there is element of predictability. read sutta MN136. the buddha clearly expounded the teachings in the sutta whereby there are different states of rebirth one can take place in, given when certain conditions are there. only when certain conditions are met then only outcome can be guaranteed.

karma is a natural phenomena/process, which is not to be philosophized nor debate on whether it is true or untrue. it is experiential, and you can experience this phenomena from moment to moment if your mind is clear enough to see, then you'll understand.

the thought experiment (container with ants) you created does not even have any relation at all in proving/disproving the phenomena.
maybe you are wondering, how do i know i am guaranteed not to be reborn as an insect or other misery states? according to early scriptures, there are 31 planes of existence (https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sagga/loka.html)
ant belongs to the animal realm, which is a woeful state of existence. you are only guaranteed not to be reborn in the 4 woeful realms only when you have the right causes and conditions. they can be found here: sota­patti­phala sutta (SN 55.55) , dutiyasariputta Sutta (SN 55.5), and https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/i...the_stream.html
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This is just a belief, not real or true. You believe it, then you use it to explain what you observe of the world. You don't believe it, the observations can still be explained without it.
TSpuchongite
post Apr 4 2020, 09:34 PM

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QUOTE(k2.ekAY @ Apr 4 2020, 08:38 PM)
the thought experiment (container with ants) you created does not even have any relation at all in proving/disproving the phenomena.

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My thought experiment is irrelevant when karma does not have predictability.

In other words, I cannot disprove something which lacks predictability, it is simply unfalsifiable. I don't have to disprove an unfalsifiable claim.

I would be able to disprove it when you clearly define your conditions which makes it predictable.

This post has been edited by puchongite: Apr 4 2020, 09:35 PM
Spear2
post Apr 4 2020, 10:14 PM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Apr 4 2020, 06:23 PM)
In this post I want to explain the experiment to disprove karmic action.

The experiment is pretty simple.

Just collect 50 samples of living things. To avoid human morality issue, do it on ants.

Randomly split 50 ants of the sample into 25,25 and put them in two different containers.

Container A you spray insecticide on it. Container B you do not.

The outcome is pretty predictable. No matter how you choose to split the sample, ants in container A always ended up dead. That means irrespective of whatever their past lives, they are made to die. Those in container A are guaranteed to die, it does not matter what their past lives were.

Therefore karmic action cannot be guaranteed. The real cause of their death is actually the spray of insecticides on them. Their past lives have no part to play.

Just do the same thought experiment using human. Then you will see that karma is either untrue or useless.
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It is rationalized when you choose which ants go into which container. The ants were chosen because of karma. To you it seems random, to the believers that's karma at work.
Pikichu
post Apr 4 2020, 10:52 PM

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I see puchongites' comments and no arguement that karma is not consistent.
Borrow thread to explore topic.

QUOTE(k2.ekAY @ Apr 4 2020, 08:38 PM)
my bad, perhaps i should say it is not guaranteed unless conditions are met.  blush.gif

conditionality, karma and rebirth are inter-related, they cannot exist independently.

there is element of predictability. read sutta MN136. the buddha clearly expounded the teachings in the sutta whereby there are different states of rebirth one can take place in, given when certain conditions are there. only when certain conditions are met then only outcome can be guaranteed.

karma is a natural phenomena/process, which is not to be philosophized nor debate on whether it is true or untrue. it is experiential, and you can experience this phenomena from moment to moment if your mind is clear enough to see, then you'll understand.

the thought experiment (container with ants) you created does not even have any relation at all in proving/disproving the phenomena.
maybe you are wondering, how do i know i am guaranteed not to be reborn as an insect or other misery states? according to early scriptures, there are 31 planes of existence (https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sagga/loka.html)
ant belongs to the animal realm, which is a woeful state of existence. you are only guaranteed not to be reborn in the 4 woeful realms only when you have the right causes and conditions. they can be found here: sota­patti­phala sutta (SN 55.55) , dutiyasariputta Sutta (SN 55.5), and https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/i...the_stream.html
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How is a mind clear?
How is a mind clear enough to see as you described?
k2.ekAY
post Apr 4 2020, 10:59 PM

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This post has been edited by k2.ekAY: Mar 27 2021, 08:11 PM
SUSuamcy
post Apr 4 2020, 11:26 PM

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QUOTE(Pikichu @ Apr 4 2020, 10:52 PM)
I see puchongites' comments and no arguement that karma is not consistent.
Borrow thread to explore topic.
How is a mind clear?
How is a mind clear enough to see as you described?
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Karma could bring forward to your next life after reincarnation as well. It's hard to prove or explain.
No matter how intelligent are you, you cannot escape fate or karma. It's just a matter of time.

Wondering if Defamation through online will cause karma? The victim will feel hurt and reputation damaged due to the defamer's postings in the forum. How? What do you think?

Btw if you believe then you believe. If they don't believe it, then just wait for the skies to punish them one day.

This post has been edited by uamcy: Apr 4 2020, 11:35 PM
k2.ekAY
post Apr 4 2020, 11:30 PM

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This post has been edited by k2.ekAY: Mar 27 2021, 08:11 PM
k2.ekAY
post Apr 4 2020, 11:32 PM

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This post has been edited by k2.ekAY: Mar 27 2021, 08:10 PM
Pikichu
post Apr 5 2020, 12:00 AM

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QUOTE(uamcy @ Apr 4 2020, 11:26 PM)
Karma could bring forward to your next life after reincarnation as well. It's hard to prove or explain.
No matter how intelligent are you, you cannot escape fate or karma. It's just a matter of time.

Wondering if Defamation through online will cause karma? The victim will feel hurt and reputation damaged due to the defamer's postings in the forum. How? What do you think?

Btw if you believe then you believe. If they don't believe it, then just wait for the skies to punish them one day.
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QUOTE(k2.ekAY @ Apr 4 2020, 11:30 PM)
actual buddhists practice the following 3 steps: dana(generosity),  sila(morality & virtue), then bhavana(mental cultivation, also known as meditation) dana -> sila -> bhavana

by putting effort and gradually training in accordance to these steps, you're conditioning the mind to lean towards pure and clean state. pure and clean state of mind is a happy mind  smile.gif

once sila(morality) are like your second nature, what comes naturally is samadhi(concentration), a calm and serene mind that's clear, even blissful state of mind, which help ones to see things as they are, in other word, the reality la. that's when panna(wisdom) come to be.

sila -> samadhi -> panna.
"what 'things' ahhh???" you may ask. those 'things" are the reality of anicca(impermanent), dukkha(unsatisfactory-ness), anatta(non-self)

all phenomenas come to existence based on conditionality. even our state of mind, mental habits and activities and conditioned-based. they are ever changing, thus anicca(impermanence). we always want to hold on to pleasant feelings and always dispel unpleasant ones, and since they are impermanent, there are also dukkha(unsatisfactory). also because all phenomenas are subject to change,  this characteristic is called anatta(non-self) 
true or not ? hmm i don't know. you'll have to experience it for yourself. perhaps can be liken to this analogy: nearly impossible to describe the taste of durian to someone who hasn't tasted it themselves  wink.gif
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I asked, "How is a mind clear?
How is a mind clear enough to see as you described?"

Clearly two of you do not have a clear mind biggrin.gif LOL

When you do not have a clear mind, how can you be objective?
So you have what the military calls, a trained response. Just say karma, trigger all these response.

Anyway, if you cannot answer my first 2 initial questions, then you are stuck in your loop. No need to reply. Thank you for reading.
k2.ekAY
post Apr 5 2020, 12:28 AM

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This post has been edited by k2.ekAY: Mar 27 2021, 08:10 PM

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