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silverhawk
post Feb 23 2020, 11:51 AM

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QUOTE(Palindromes @ Feb 23 2020, 10:52 AM)
Seems like we can't avoid age discrimination when applying for programmer role.

The earliest age one could work probably is early twenties after finishing study.
Then I heard median age in Facebook and Google is about 28~30.

What is median age?
So if a Facebook/ Google employee spent 4 years in university pursuing a CS course and entered the workforce in 22, from the median age, we can tell that upon reaching 34 years old is already considered old in Facebook. Wow.

34~36 is still young, because 55~60 is the official retirement age. Bud, there is 20 years more to go.
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Looking at the data from a single point will bring you to the wrong conclusions.

Just because FAANG companies have a median age of 28~30 doesn't mean they're not hiring older people. All it says is that there are A LOT of people aged 28~30 in the company. It says little of the hiring practice or whether there is discrimination. Consider the simple fact that an older more senior person in such a company are likely to also be poached by another company or leave to start their own. So its more likely a problem of retaining the older workers, than not hiring them.


ngaisteve1
post Feb 23 2020, 12:15 PM

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QUOTE(silverhawk @ Feb 23 2020, 12:51 PM)
Looking at the data from a single point will bring you to the wrong conclusions.

Just because FAANG companies have a median age of 28~30 doesn't mean they're not hiring older people. All it says is that there are A LOT of people aged 28~30 in the company. It says little of the hiring practice or whether there is discrimination. Consider the simple fact that an older more senior person in such a company are likely to also be poached by another company or leave to start their own. So its more likely a problem of retaining the older workers, than not hiring them.
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Or perhaps changed role to become management role like project manager. By the way can technical role match up with management role now?

This post has been edited by ngaisteve1: Feb 23 2020, 12:20 PM
malleus
post Feb 23 2020, 12:49 PM

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QUOTE(silverhawk @ Feb 23 2020, 11:44 AM)
Has this worked out well in practice? From what I've heard and personally experienced, it doesn't seem to work out so well for all involved.
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Has what worked well? I mentioned a number of things, so can you be more specific? Are you talking about the pairing exercises? or pairing during work? or the take home first round filter? or the need to have a properly done up take home test to give to candidates?

Palindromes
post Feb 23 2020, 01:12 PM

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QUOTE(silverhawk @ Feb 23 2020, 11:51 AM)
Looking at the data from a single point will bring you to the wrong conclusions.
.............. It says little of the hiring practice or whether there is discrimination. ......So its more likely a problem of retaining the older workers, than not hiring them.
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I do hope so. But generations come and generations go.

They want young programmer face to show to their client, according to that video posted by jbcoder.

On the other hand, it would be quite embarrassing to have employee older than his younger employer. It is understandably why I see people in their late 30 and early 40 becoming managers or starting their own business.


silverhawk
post Feb 23 2020, 03:04 PM

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QUOTE(malleus @ Feb 23 2020, 12:49 PM)
Has what worked well? I mentioned a number of things, so can you be more specific? Are you talking about the pairing exercises? or pairing during work? or the take home first round filter? or the need to have a properly done up take home test to give to candidates?
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Take home tests as a first-pass filter.

Are the quality of candidates that get pass the filter good? How do they compare to someone who got poached/referred in that didn't have to go through the test? Do you know if good candidates were missed out on because some people just outright reject a company that requires a take home test? We can put aside the criteria that the tests were properly done, assume there are good and bad versions of it in the mix.


xSean
post Feb 23 2020, 03:10 PM

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sometimes i join my boss for demo from startup....young and passion...

developed in latest tech like nodejs/python, mongodb/redis/elastic search, angular/react, flutter etc...

they said use rdbms like sql server and mysql quite outdated...cannot do distributed system and slow....and their solution got related to transaction data.

This post has been edited by xSean: Feb 23 2020, 04:21 PM
silverhawk
post Feb 23 2020, 06:55 PM

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QUOTE(xSean @ Feb 23 2020, 03:10 PM)
sometimes i join my boss for demo from startup....young and passion...

developed in latest tech like nodejs/python, mongodb/redis/elastic search, angular/react, flutter etc...

they said use rdbms like sql server and mysql quite outdated...cannot do distributed system and slow....and their solution got related to transaction data.
*
laugh.gif

lets wait for @jbcoder to see what he says
malleus
post Feb 24 2020, 08:34 AM

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QUOTE(silverhawk @ Feb 23 2020, 03:04 PM)
Take home tests as a first-pass filter.

Are the quality of candidates that get pass the filter good? How do they compare to someone who got poached/referred in that didn't have to go through the test? Do you know if good candidates were missed out on because some people just outright reject a company that requires a take home test? We can put aside the criteria that the tests were properly done, assume there are good and bad versions of it in the mix.
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The truth is, there'll always be a certain number of good candidates missed out whichever approach that you use. Hence the main reason on the importance of a properly designed test that'll take roughly an approximate amount of time to complete, instead of something too simple or too overboard.

I've seen some cases where a person got poached and the interview process was cut down for them being poor performers too, mainly because they have a larger than life reputation as they're active on organizing conferences and local community meetups.

Which still brings up the original question of, what exactly would be an alternate method that can scale for bringing down the candidate pool of 100 down to the best 3? And 100 can be quite a small number in some cases, I've seen numbers that goes up to 10k+ per year.


ngaisteve1
post Feb 24 2020, 10:25 AM

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What are the tough data structures questions you exp during interview test? Are expected to hand code for example bubble sort, quick sort algorithm?
SUSTheRant
post Feb 24 2020, 11:39 AM

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QUOTE(ngaisteve1 @ Feb 24 2020, 10:25 AM)
What are the tough data structures questions you exp during interview test? Are expected to hand code for example bubble sort, quick sort algorithm?
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Just out of curiosity. Why would you want to leave your current job.

I think you are likely 40 plus right? Why would you leave your training job for programming job. At your stage, I would try to distance myself from technical as much as possible.

I dunno. I think it's very tough for you frankly especially if you have not been involved in development for a while.

Also you ask me how to qualify for senior position. At this stage, you should know what is expected as a, senior right?

As a senior, you are supposed to make yourself look good. Dun ask too many questions unless it's relevant and solve those issues yourself. Coding standard is a must. You have to be able to learn something quickly and deliver.

In other words you have to be better then a junior in every circumstance.

This post has been edited by TheRant: Feb 24 2020, 11:50 AM
ngaisteve1
post Feb 24 2020, 12:03 PM

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QUOTE(TheRant @ Feb 24 2020, 12:39 PM)
Just out of curiosity. Why would you want to leave your current job.

I think you are likely 40 plus right?  Why would you leave your training job for programming job. At your stage, I would try to distance myself from technical as much as possible.

I dunno. I think it's very tough for you frankly especially if you have not been involved in development for a while.
Why will you want to know someone's age? Is this age discrimination? hmm.gif

I am on technical everyday. Hands-on technical training.

Anyway, thanks for your advice. icon_rolleyes.gif

QUOTE(TheRant @ Feb 24 2020, 12:39 PM)

Also you ask me how to qualify for senior position. At this stage,  you should know what is expected as a, senior right?
I don't just ask you. This is not private message. I also ask other sifus here.
I just want to have an idea the expectation of a senior position only which I believe most of you guys are all seniors. icon_rolleyes.gif

Why will I ask if I already know? hmm.gif
Working for many years doesn't equals to 'seniors', right?
silverhawk
post Feb 24 2020, 07:09 PM

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QUOTE(malleus @ Feb 24 2020, 08:34 AM)
The truth is, there'll always be a certain number of good candidates missed out whichever approach that you use. Hence the main reason on the importance of a properly designed test that'll take roughly an approximate amount of time to complete, instead of something too simple or too overboard.

Getting that balance right would be pretty hard I reckon. Though like you say, might pay off if you have thousands of applicants trying to get in.

QUOTE
Which still brings up the original question of, what exactly would be an alternate method that can scale for bringing down the candidate pool of 100 down to the best 3? And 100 can be quite a small number in some cases, I've seen numbers that goes up to 10k+ per year.
*

My take on this isn't popular, but I still think a human approach is the right one, even at such scales.

Tests are scaleable when done right, but if you have so many applicants its likely leaked and answers would be easy to find making the first-pass filter redundant. This is what's happening with whiteboarding algorithm tests, people just do leetcode exercises or memorise the trendy buzzwords of the day to pass the interview.

If the company is swarming with candidates, they should be able to cherry pick based on those who are approaching them aggressively. IMO the best first-pass filter is not even advertising the job.

QUOTE(ngaisteve1 @ Feb 24 2020, 10:25 AM)
What are the tough data structures questions you exp during interview test? Are expected to hand code for example bubble sort, quick sort algorithm?
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Don't expect a particular data structure or algorithm. You might want to brush up on some of the basics to get a refresher before the interview but be prepared to get curve balls thrown at you. For example if I asked you why quicksort is faster than bubble sort, how would you answer? If I asked what is the weakness of quicksort, how would you answer? If I gave you a sorting algorithm code without naming it, are you able to deduce its pros/cons?

What is more important is to communicate with the interviewer. Even if you don't know the data structure or the algorithm, you should know the basics of coding to come up with a solution. May not be the best, but as long as it works. If you know its not optimal, you can ask for hints to make it faster. If you can show that you are humble enough to ask for help when you don't know something, and are able to come up with a solution with some hints (quick learner), you'll make a pretty good candidate for a team.

This post has been edited by silverhawk: Feb 24 2020, 07:12 PM
ngaisteve1
post Feb 24 2020, 10:28 PM

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QUOTE(silverhawk @ Feb 24 2020, 08:09 PM)
Getting that balance right would be pretty hard I reckon. Though like you say, might pay off if you have thousands of applicants trying to get in.
My take on this isn't popular, but I still think a human approach is the right one, even at such scales.

Tests are scaleable when done right, but if you have so many applicants its likely leaked and answers would be easy to find making the first-pass filter redundant. This is what's happening with whiteboarding algorithm tests, people just do leetcode exercises or memorise the trendy buzzwords of the day to pass the interview.

If the company is swarming with candidates, they should be able to cherry pick based on those who are approaching them aggressively. IMO the best first-pass filter is not even advertising the job.
Don't expect a particular data structure or algorithm. You might want to brush up on some of the basics to get a refresher before the interview but be prepared to get curve balls thrown at you. For example if I asked you why quicksort is faster than bubble sort, how would you answer? If I asked what is the weakness of quicksort, how would you answer? If I gave you a sorting algorithm code without naming it, are you able to deduce its pros/cons? 

What is more important is to communicate with the interviewer. Even if you don't know the data structure or the algorithm, you should know the basics of coding to come up with a solution. May not be the best, but as long as it works. If you know its not optimal, you can ask for hints to make it faster. If you can show that you are humble enough to ask for help when you don't know something, and are able to come up with a solution with some hints (quick learner), you'll make a pretty good candidate for a team.
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Indeed preparation is really important.
Thanks for the valuable tips thumbup.gif


malleus
post Feb 27 2020, 08:30 AM

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QUOTE(silverhawk @ Feb 24 2020, 07:09 PM)
Getting that balance right would be pretty hard I reckon. Though like you say, might pay off if you have thousands of applicants trying to get in.
My take on this isn't popular, but I still think a human approach is the right one, even at such scales.

Tests are scaleable when done right, but if you have so many applicants its likely leaked and answers would be easy to find making the first-pass filter redundant. This is what's happening with whiteboarding algorithm tests, people just do leetcode exercises or memorise the trendy buzzwords of the day to pass the interview.

If the company is swarming with candidates, they should be able to cherry pick based on those who are approaching them aggressively. IMO the best first-pass filter is not even advertising the job.
I actually agree with you on the human approach. That's the preferred approach when the number of openings to be filled is small, or the opening is for a very specialized role where you'll already know the candidates that you want to approach to poach, and the only reason for advertising the opening in the first place is to fulfill visa application requirements.

But when the number is big, especially for entry to mid level seniority, that's when such scaling issues happen.

QUOTE(silverhawk @ Feb 24 2020, 07:09 PM)
Don't expect a particular data structure or algorithm. You might want to brush up on some of the basics to get a refresher before the interview but be prepared to get curve balls thrown at you. For example if I asked you why quicksort is faster than bubble sort, how would you answer? If I asked what is the weakness of quicksort, how would you answer? If I gave you a sorting algorithm code without naming it, are you able to deduce its pros/cons? 

What is more important is to communicate with the interviewer. Even if you don't know the data structure or the algorithm, you should know the basics of coding to come up with a solution. May not be the best, but as long as it works. If you know its not optimal, you can ask for hints to make it faster. If you can show that you are humble enough to ask for help when you don't know something, and are able to come up with a solution with some hints (quick learner), you'll make a pretty good candidate for a team.
*
A more realistic whiteboard test for the senior roles will be on how they would design something, rather than something algorithm related. It can be anything from, your preferred pattern for mobile apps, and how would you do implement it, or how would you design a data ingest pipeline.
xSean
post Feb 27 2020, 09:44 PM

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QUOTE(silverhawk @ Feb 23 2020, 06:55 PM)
laugh.gif

lets wait for @jbcoder to see what he says
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jbcoder so quiet recently in codemaster biggrin.gif
SUSjbcoder
post Feb 27 2020, 09:49 PM

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QUOTE(xSean @ Feb 27 2020, 09:44 PM)
jbcoder so quiet recently in codemaster  biggrin.gif
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There's a reason it's a 'startup', because it's run by a bunch of inexperienced millennials who think they know everything and hence use whatever the latest fad/trend and disses established opensource solutions.

I've already made my disdain for python known, there's no reason to repeat it.



bumpo
post Feb 28 2020, 11:34 AM

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QUOTE(xSean @ Feb 23 2020, 03:10 PM)
sometimes i join my boss for demo from startup....young and passion...

developed in latest tech like nodejs/python, mongodb/redis/elastic search, angular/react, flutter etc...

they said use rdbms like sql server and mysql quite outdated...cannot do distributed system and slow....and their solution got related to transaction data.
*
in my book who ever claims rdbms cannot do distributed system is straight up a retard laugh.gif

technology is usually fit for purpose which most start up i came across seems to neglect or gloss over. feels more like they just doing a sales pitch even when its a technical session sweat.gif

ngaisteve1
post Mar 29 2020, 09:32 PM

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Successfully received my job offer as s software engineer
Arhat
post Apr 20 2020, 01:57 PM

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Most employers now have unrealistic deadline expectations. That's why software has so many bugs.
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post May 5 2020, 11:55 PM

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didnt expect programming technical test to b so hard

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