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 Wahed Invest Malaysia, Good, Ok2, Bad?

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zacknistelrooy
post Mar 3 2020, 08:30 PM

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QUOTE(GrumpyNooby @ Mar 3 2020, 04:12 PM)
That's why I'm still trying to figure out the dots.
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I do hope that you all are getting proper fills for you orders because the difference between price and NAV is quite steep ever since Wahed started:


user posted image


Even if one factors futures movement and the Ringgit, the difference should not be to that extent.


CODE
https://www.myetf.com.my/en/MyETF-Series/MyETF-Dow-Jones-U-S-Titans-50/Performance/Graph/Historical-NAV-Price


This post has been edited by zacknistelrooy: Mar 3 2020, 08:30 PM
zacknistelrooy
post Mar 7 2020, 09:01 PM

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QUOTE(abcn1n @ Mar 7 2020, 12:25 AM)
If I understand correctly, looking at the 5th March, isn't it scary that the price we pay is much higher than the NAV--in fact it seems to be the widest so far. If so, then price will have to drop right, and then our porfolio value will decline
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Finally someone asking the right question. Don't look at price but look at the buy and sells

QUOTE(balf @ Mar 7 2020, 09:16 AM)
it will adjust towards NAV eventually as i said, so yes it will drop eventually if NAV keep on moving downward.
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Yes if there no volume but if there is volume and the transactions are happening way above the NAV then that is a concern

The Wahed ETF (HLAL) listed in US does a way better job at pricing the ETF

QUOTE(abcn1n @ Mar 7 2020, 10:18 AM)
Thanks. I don't see this NAV and price graph in Stashaway though.
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The ETF purchased by are traded more and have better pricing.

Date NAV Transactions
6-Mar 1.2246 No volume
5-Mar 1.2629 3600 buy @ 1.40
4-Mar 1.211 101,000 buy @ 1.39 & 700 buy @ 1.39
3-Mar 1.2495 900 buy @ 1.35 & 430,000 buy @ 1.37
2-Mar 1.1902 800 sell @ 1.28 & 325,000 buy @ 1.24
28-Feb 1.1911 200 shares @ 1.28 & 300,000 @ 1.33 & 228,000 sell @ 1.33
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Even on Friday if I wanted to buy the ETF, the price on offer was 1.39 which is way higher than the NAV

This post has been edited by zacknistelrooy: Mar 7 2020, 09:02 PM
zacknistelrooy
post Mar 8 2020, 10:42 PM

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QUOTE(abcn1n @ Mar 8 2020, 12:45 AM)
Where do you see the bid, ask and transaction price for the METUS50 and for our local ETF that Wahed manage? If its thinly traded, then its really no good. From what I read previously, the KLSE ETF is thinly traded and that's why we should not play with it due to the wide bid ask spread.
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For METFUS50 is through my old brokerage account

user posted image

For the HLAL ETF you can use the following website when the US market opens:

CODE
https://markets.cboe.com/us/equities/market_statistics/book/AAPL/

zacknistelrooy
post Apr 12 2020, 09:24 PM

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Like I have said earlier, the ETF's run by i-VCAP have serious problems.

At one point last month they were trading at significant premium and those who bought last month paid that premium and now it is trading at a discount. I tested it myself

Volume isn't the issue because one can look at the TradePlus Shariah Gold Tracker run by Affin and it has only a one cent spread even with low volume

If the excuse is given that it is a foreign ETF then look at the MyETF MSCI Malaysia Islamic Dividend and even that has the same issue which shouldn't be the case since all the assets are in Malaysia after all

Attached Image

The NAV for the ETF on that day was around 1.01 but the provider was willing to sell at 0.935

This post has been edited by zacknistelrooy: Apr 12 2020, 09:26 PM
zacknistelrooy
post Apr 12 2020, 09:31 PM

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QUOTE(backspace66 @ Apr 12 2020, 09:27 PM)
If there is market maker that will be easily snapped up
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That 300 is very likely the market maker because I have seen that number for months now.

Unlikely retail or institutional investors is outing the same queue every time


QUOTE(GrumpyNooby @ Apr 12 2020, 09:29 PM)
So do we have any market maker now given the current local equity sentiment?
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The market maker needs to have enough inventory in his books which seems in this case unlikely

Has less to do with local equity sentiment unless the market plunges in a few minutes


This post has been edited by zacknistelrooy: Apr 12 2020, 09:35 PM
zacknistelrooy
post Apr 12 2020, 09:41 PM

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QUOTE(GrumpyNooby @ Apr 12 2020, 09:33 PM)
So you have confidence that this robo-advisor will survive beyond September 2020?
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Yes but that doesn't mean one should invest in it now

Let them solve the issue then you can invest as they can easily switch to different products
zacknistelrooy
post Apr 12 2020, 09:46 PM

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QUOTE(GrumpyNooby @ Apr 12 2020, 09:42 PM)
If that's the case, should I switch to TradePlus Shariah Gold Tracker under Gold Portfolio?
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You would need to ask those who did the withdrawal if the stuff that got sold were at a discount to NAV

That is the danger now if you sell and I am not sure at what price they would even sell it at


Sorry but I don't follow gold closely enough to have an opinion on it

zacknistelrooy
post Apr 25 2020, 08:09 PM

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The problems of old are still here

The merry go around of discount and premium of this ETF has been an interesting watch.

As of Friday close the MyETF-US50 is trading at 11% above the NAV which is around 1.20

Last month when it seems there were a lot of complains, it was trading at a discount to NAV



The MyETF MSCI Malaysia Islamic Dividend is still trading close to 9% discount to NAV.

So until they manage to switch these respective ETF's, just a caution that you may not be getting the price you see on your app
zacknistelrooy
post Apr 27 2020, 05:38 PM

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MyETF MSCI Malaysia Islamic Dividend (MyETF-MMID)

user posted image

MyETF Dow Jones U.S. Titans 50 (MyETF-US50)

user posted image
zacknistelrooy
post Apr 27 2020, 06:04 PM

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QUOTE(rotloi @ Apr 27 2020, 05:44 PM)
Wahed is way way better than stashaway
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Nope
That isn't true

If you really want to know if Wahed is doing well then check their own created ETF (HLAL)

QUOTE
https://www.etf.com/HLAL#overview


So far it is inline with the market performance


QUOTE(tadashi987 @ Apr 27 2020, 05:47 PM)
i think u cannot compare at such because it just happened that Wahed is not that diversified and focusing on US Titan 50,
Stashaway is more diversified and drag down by underperforming ETF which could be tentative  sweat.gif
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Wahed is not outperforming because they have invested in US Titan 50

It looks like it is ouperforming because the ETF are selling way above its value

If you look at NAV which I even showed last month it is similar to StashAway

Even today if I wanted to sell more than 400 shares, the price on offer was 1.25 and 400 shares were on offer at 1.3 while the price was at 1.37
zacknistelrooy
post Apr 27 2020, 08:34 PM

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QUOTE(GrumpyNooby @ Apr 27 2020, 07:39 PM)
Indeed it is.
The graph on the app already describes fairly well.
My very aggressive portfolio is earning 9.9% since I had dumped very big amount few weeks back.

I was told by everyone in here that underlying details like ETF price, NAV, low volume, closeness to the US market, its associating ETFs in US and concern of the local ETF manager (Valuecap) are not important at all.

What matters in the end is the number displayed by the app.
Compared to SAMY, I'm still in negative region even though had been DCA since the slump back in March 2020.
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Please stop with the misleading statements

The finance industry already has a bad rep

People need to know the risk that is ahead right now

Currently you are paying nearly 16% more than what the ETF is worth

If you feel that is great then by all means go ahead

Also just because the app shows the price doesn't even mean you can sell it close to that price.


For those investing recently and the comparison with S&P 500 for the past quarter or month

Dow Jones Islamic Market U.S. Titans 50 Index that the ETF is based on

user posted image

S&P 500

user posted image
zacknistelrooy
post Apr 27 2020, 08:56 PM

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QUOTE(GrumpyNooby @ Apr 27 2020, 08:38 PM)
Are you from Wahed Malaysia?
Who are you to stop me from making such statement unless you're a representative from Wahed Malaysia or Wahed International?
Moreover I'm not even defaming nor slandering the company.
I'm just sharing the performance that I'm getting over my investing experience with Wahed since December 2019 last year.
Which section or part that I'm lying or cheating people over here?
It's all from the app itself unless you're hinting me that the app itself is cheating me!
Or the numbers are fabricated in some sense?

What're the risks? If we're overpaying for the price premium, an official complaint should be lodged to SC.
I should be more worried than you as I have substantial amount in the portfolio.
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I only asked to stop making misleading statements because when others look at the performance, they will think it is something great without knowing the full story.

When you mentioned performance you also need to mention how much more premium the ETF is currently trading at so people know what risk they are getting into

There are no issues with the app

The risk in overpaying is like last month when it trades at a discount or when Wahed finally moves to another ETF and sells it at value and not the premium you are currently looking at.

This post has been edited by zacknistelrooy: Apr 27 2020, 08:58 PM
zacknistelrooy
post Apr 27 2020, 10:40 PM

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QUOTE(tadashi987 @ Apr 27 2020, 09:07 PM)
chill dudes  sweat.gif  , I think zacknistelrooy is just trying to tell us not to get too excited looking at the performance but forgetting the myETF-US50 is trading at a premium -> we might not get what we see in the app

what he does is not wrong for creating an awareness to us

I guess the best way is to test and sell ALL and see if your receiving bank amount would it be much different from what your holdings is showing in the end
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Thank you for your understanding

By no means Stashaway is perfect either

Those in the 36% risk are seeing underperformance mainly due to to nearly 30% allocation towards underperforming asset classes at least for the past month

Those are Small Caps, Europe and Cash

So that is why I always advocate to know what your are investing because in the end of the day you have your own best interest.


I am sure one wants to end up like the retail clients of Bank of China that lost nearly a 1 bil because they were put in crude oil products

https://www.scmp.com/business/money/markets...llapse-burn-us1

QUOTE
Bank of China’s estimate for the carnage to retail investors from the collapse in a product linked to US crude oil futures surged 11-fold to more than 7 billion yuan (US$1 billion), as it consolidated reports from its nationwide network, according to people familiar with the matter.

The estimate of losses to customers across China increased from about 600 million yuan in the middle of last week, as more information was gathered from its more than 10,000 outlets, said the people, asking not to be identified as they were discussing a private matter. The number is not final and subject to further change as more branch data is examined, one of the people said.



zacknistelrooy
post Apr 28 2020, 01:22 AM

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QUOTE(tadashi987 @ Apr 28 2020, 12:53 AM)
what do you invest in tho  whistling.gif
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I invest directly in equities and ETF's listed in US.

Sometimes people ask me about these Robo-advisors so I have to test it out and now only have a bit Stashaway left after exiting the rest.
zacknistelrooy
post Apr 29 2020, 08:36 PM

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QUOTE(xcxa23 @ Apr 29 2020, 08:42 AM)
For samy etf ijr
Afaik, us small cap was booming during early 2012 until mid of 2018
Around 10% annualised, if I'm not mistaken.
When the trade war started, then it started to bear

Is there any etf performing well during trade wars?

I am interested to buy etf directly but afaik it is costly? From the thread I follow here,
Need high amount euro 4k or hefty fee
High lag day from foreign exchange to complete purchase. Might take up to 14 working days

Also, I am interested with your etf holdings. Mind sharing?
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Yeah

Real problems started after the Dec 2018 bottom

IJR has around 25% in financials so once US started to reduce rates and the slowing down of the economy meant this ETF not surprisingly started to under perform.

The IGV ETF outperformed during the trade war.


It isn't costly if you have saved a bit though I am not 100% sure what is the right amount as I never looked into it. There are experts here who a more well verse with the cost savings.


I am only holding one ETF right now which is SMH and the rest are mainly in tech shares



zacknistelrooy
post May 5 2020, 09:22 PM

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QUOTE(tadashi987 @ May 5 2020, 09:52 AM)
ya so far so good, but one thing i dont like about it is that not sure why sukuk/bond they would go for RHB islamic bond fund

RHb bond fund doesn't known to be good, hearsay there is few round of dropping because of default credit or so

personally feel syariah bond fund best is Amanah Syariah Trust (excluding nomura which is wholesale bond fund)

user posted image
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Afaik that fund held onto some of the Maju Expressway (MEX) bonds and their rating was downgraded
Can't remember if there were any other issue for the fund

QUOTE(tadashi987 @ May 5 2020, 03:29 PM)
user posted image
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It is indeed outperforming the S&P 500 but not to this extent

The premium has now grown to 20% from NAV

user posted image

I had a look at the transactions for the ETF and the last sell was on 17th April 2020. Has been all buys from that time.

I suspect that with the performance, there are people adding even more funds forcing even more buys that is driving up the prices more than normal

I have never seen an ETF have this kind of disconnect before because arbitrage usually kicks in

What are your thoughts and happy to hear if you don't believe in my theory
zacknistelrooy
post May 9 2020, 08:14 PM

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QUOTE(honsiong @ May 8 2020, 02:47 AM)
It seems like the market maker aka authorized participants arent issuing new ETF shares?

As of January 2020, they only have RM 2M AUM. This is a very very very very small ETF, dont expect it to have good trading volume to close the bid-ask spread.
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They only issued a bit this year but have reduced there units in circulation compared to last year

They have lost control of all their ETF

One of the ETF they were managing had a 30% discount to NAV

I would disagree with the bid-ask spread and trading volume correlation as I have observed the ones with large units in circulation have a better bid-ask spread and also depends on who is managing the ETF too.

 

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