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> Mistreatment of China's Uighur, Why China resort to inhumane treatment

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puchongite
post Oct 25 2019, 08:58 AM

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QUOTE(alhelmy @ Oct 25 2019, 03:58 AM)
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The last point is important.

Those who are detained have to repeatedly watch 're-education' films featuring state appointed Iman who explains 'illegal religious practices' and 'appropriate interpretation of Islam'.

At least in the views of the China government, many of the Uighur are having terrorist mindsets and doing harmful religious practices.

Leaving the discussion of whether the approach taken adequately meets humanity standard aside, I personally think China government is correct in this accessment of the issue. Islam has built in political elements and philosophy, it is easy for it to used to spread different political idealogy than the only allowed political idealogy in the communist China. It is just like in Malaysia, we are not allowed to be involved in any idealogy other than democracy, particularly communism. A government will always defend its political ideology.

But in Malaysia to shout about political Islam is treated as a very righteous thing. Hadi Awang does that all the time. That is big irony.

This post has been edited by puchongite: Oct 25 2019, 09:03 AM
TSramz
post Oct 25 2019, 09:21 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Oct 25 2019, 08:58 AM)
The last point is important.

Those who are detained have to repeatedly watch 're-education' films featuring state appointed Iman who explains 'illegal religious practices' and 'appropriate interpretation of Islam'.

At least in the views of the China government, many of the Uighur are having terrorist mindsets and doing harmful religious practices.

Leaving the discussion of whether the approach taken adequately meets humanity standard aside, I personally think China government is correct in this accessment of the issue. Islam has built in political elements and philosophy, it is easy for it to used to spread different political idealogy than the only allowed political idealogy in the communist China. It is just like in Malaysia, we are not allowed to be involved in any idealogy other than democracy, particularly communism. A government will always defend its political ideology.

But in Malaysia to shout about political Islam is treated as a very righteous thing. Hadi Awang  does that all the time. That is big irony.
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Hadi has a right to shout about political islam. And somebody has the right to shout about communism is he choose to. Let the best man win. But of course there are limits to the shouting. As long as you don't promote violence, you are free to say it. This is the environment I want to live in. But I know not many share my inspiration.

I am not there to witness how China treat the Muslims. But my sentiments tells me there is definitely Human abuse, and the approach to force re-education also seems not right (I have to look into the details to confirm). Forced re-education to kill promotion of violence is ok, but not to kill the ideology. Although islam scriptures promote violence (so do most major religions btw), but it does not translate to majority of Muslims promoting violence.


puchongite
post Oct 25 2019, 09:26 AM

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QUOTE(ramz @ Oct 25 2019, 09:21 AM)
Hadi has a right to shout about political islam. And somebody has the right to shout about communism is he choose to. Let the best man win. But of course there are limits to the shouting. As long as you don't promote violence, you are free to say it. This is the environment I want to live in. But I know not many share my inspiration.

I am not there to witness how China treat the Muslims. But my sentiments tells me there is definitely Human abuse, and the approach to force re-education also seems not right (I have to look into the details to confirm). Forced  re-education to kill promotion of violence is ok, but not to kill the ideology. Although islam scriptures promote violence (so do most major religions btw), but it does not translate to majority of Muslims promoting violence.
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Many of the political Islam directly translate to violence.

Also are sure it is ok to shout about communism in Malaysia ?

This post has been edited by puchongite: Oct 25 2019, 09:54 AM
TSramz
post Oct 25 2019, 09:30 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Oct 25 2019, 09:26 AM)
Many of the political Islam directly translate to violence.

Also are sure it is ok to shout about communiy in Malaysia ?
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Well there are 2 ways to shout. 1. Let's have a khalifah system but let's do this by influencing others. 2. Let's have a khalifah system, force it and threaten those who don't want. I can tolerate the 1st way.

I am talking about the environment I like to live in. Of course Malaysia don't allow communism.
puchongite
post Oct 25 2019, 09:40 AM

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QUOTE(ramz @ Oct 25 2019, 09:30 AM)
Well there are 2 ways to shout. 1. Let's have a khalifah system but let's do this by influencing others. 2. Let's have a khalifah system, force it and threaten those who don't want. I can tolerate the 1st way.

I am talking about the environment I like to live in. Of course Malaysia don't allow communism.
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Political Islam has very big scope. Syariah is political Islam. Apostasy law is one facet of political Islam. And directly translate to inhumanity and violence.

True democracy is messy and slow and many times ineffective.

This post has been edited by puchongite: Oct 25 2019, 09:54 AM
TSramz
post Oct 25 2019, 10:05 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Oct 25 2019, 09:40 AM)
Political Islam has very big scope. Syariah is political Islam. Apostasy law is one facet of political Islam. And directly translate to inhumanity and violence.

True democracy is messy and slow and many times ineffective.
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I don't know whether u want to call true democracy.

But I like to live in an environment that is open for the best idea to surface. In Malaysia u can't criticize islam, u can't even promote another religion. You can't talk about apostasy law and how stupid it is except in forums like this (if this forum gets as popular as Facebook, you can't do it either). But if u open up, u must be fair to your enemies too. They have the right to open up too. Of course with some restrictions in place like no promotion to violence, no imposition. Etc.

This environment to me is not messy and ineffective, but the opposite. I don't want to put a label.
puchongite
post Oct 25 2019, 10:14 AM

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QUOTE(ramz @ Oct 25 2019, 10:05 AM)
I don't know whether u want to call true democracy.

But I like to live in an environment that is open for the best idea to surface. In Malaysia u can't criticize islam, u can't even promote another religion. You can't talk about apostasy law and how stupid it is except in forums like this (if this forum gets as popular as Facebook, you can't do it either). But if u open up, u must be fair to your enemies too. They have the right to open up too. Of course with some restrictions in place like no promotion to violence, no imposition. Etc.

This environment to me is not messy and ineffective, but the opposite. I don't want to put a label.
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Put yourself in the shoes of the Chinese government, then you will perhaps appreciate better which is more effective in addressing the issues of terrorism in Xinjang, the full humanity and democracy method or the China hardliner method or something else .....

TSramz
post Oct 25 2019, 10:25 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Oct 25 2019, 10:14 AM)
Put yourself in the shoes of the Chinese government, then you will perhaps appreciate better which is more effective in addressing the issues of terrorism in Xinjang, the full humanity and democracy method or the China hardliner method or something else .....
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I did mention in my earlier post that I am not there to observe. Maybe there is no human rights abuse after all. Maybe those impositions are fake news. But I really doubt so. Anyway I hold judgement for now.

puchongite
post Oct 25 2019, 10:33 AM

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QUOTE(ramz @ Oct 25 2019, 10:25 AM)
I did mention in my earlier post that I am not there to observe. Maybe there is no human rights abuse after all. Maybe those impositions are fake news. But I really doubt so. Anyway I hold judgement for now.
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The China does impose, so that's not fake. Neither the terrorism. Both are true.

In China, as long as you are not involved in other political idealogy, you are generally ok.

Islam is political, so that's why the China is very particular about certain ways of living as a Muslim.
alhelmy
post Oct 25 2019, 10:41 AM

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QUOTE(whirlwind @ Oct 25 2019, 06:48 AM)
But some bumi for example you start demanding this and that and quoted birth right. This is clearly greedy of you!
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Why would bumi demand birthrights when they already have that. It is the non-bumis who are demanding the very same birthrights accorded to bumis.



TSramz
post Oct 25 2019, 10:44 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Oct 25 2019, 10:33 AM)
The China does impose, so that's not fake. Neither the terrorism. Both are true.

In China, as long as you are not involved in other political idealogy, you are generally ok.

Islam is political, so that's why the China is very particular about certain ways of living as a Muslim.
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I understand China, but I don't agree with the impositions.

To Muslims not all subscribe to political islam. But the ones that do will preach about it. Is it wrong to do that? No. So there will be people like me who will say your idea is stupid. Is fair fight right? In democracy is about influencing. But if u have a fair fight in the influencing game, that's healthy. You lose means I need to brush up, or your idea really sucks!

I do not wish Malaysia to be like China.
whirlwind
post Oct 25 2019, 10:54 AM

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QUOTE(alhelmy @ Oct 25 2019, 10:41 AM)
Why would bumi demand birthrights when they already have that. It is the non-bumis who are demanding the very same birthrights accorded to bumis.
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It’s not why. It’s you.
As usual are you the alhelmy I’m talking too?
puchongite
post Oct 25 2019, 11:00 AM

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QUOTE(ramz @ Oct 25 2019, 10:44 AM)
I understand China, but I don't agree with the impositions.

To Muslims not all subscribe to political islam. But the ones that do will preach about it. Is it wrong to do that? No. So there will be people like me who will say your idea is stupid. Is fair fight right? In democracy is about influencing. But if u have a fair fight in the influencing game, that's healthy. You lose means I need to brush up, or your idea really sucks!

I do not wish Malaysia to be like China.
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I would say 90% or more Muslim are subscribing to political Islam, many of them doing it without consciously aware of it.
alhelmy
post Oct 25 2019, 11:03 AM

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QUOTE(whirlwind @ Oct 25 2019, 10:54 AM)
It’s not why. It’s you.
As usual are you the alhelmy I’m talking too?
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Me? I don't have to demand anything. I inherited it by my birthrights.



whirlwind
post Oct 25 2019, 11:14 AM

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QUOTE(alhelmy @ Oct 25 2019, 11:03 AM)
Me? I don't have to demand anything. I inherited it by my birthrights.
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I guess you are not the alhelmy I’m talking too

Therefore, whatever.......
Pointless talking to multiple people using the same account
TSramz
post Oct 25 2019, 11:18 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Oct 25 2019, 11:00 AM)
I would say 90% or more Muslim are subscribing to political Islam, many of them doing it without consciously aware of it.
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Ok how do we fight this idea? There is no way!

Malaysia:
1. won't let other ideology take control coz we got raja and sultans.
2. Cannot propogate other religions, so islam has just stifled the competition at hello.
3. Cannot apostate, meaning islam will never shrink.
4. Cannot criticize, meaning islam will always be the truth, coz nobody is opposing.
4. islam impose on other religions (disguised as race), meaning islam ratio will just continue to grow until we become like saudi.

First we need level playing field. But we won't get that.

Malaysia will forever me a mediocre country, or worst.
alhelmy
post Oct 25 2019, 11:22 AM

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QUOTE(whirlwind @ Oct 25 2019, 11:14 AM)
I guess you are not the alhelmy I’m talking too

Therefore, whatever.......
Pointless talking to multiple people using the same account
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Let me convince you to who I am, I am Alhelmy the Great, you are the cheese cake man, tongkat is fatt choy and if you need to be amused, I can amuse. Convinced enough?


TSramz
post Oct 25 2019, 11:26 AM

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QUOTE(alhelmy @ Oct 25 2019, 11:22 AM)
Let me convince you to who I am, I am Alhelmy the Great, you are the cheese cake man, tongkat is fatt choy and if you need to be amused, I can amuse. Convinced enough?
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I was convinced at hello. Thanks for your clown service.
whirlwind
post Oct 25 2019, 11:26 AM

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QUOTE(alhelmy @ Oct 25 2019, 11:22 AM)
Let me convince you to who I am, I am Alhelmy the Great, you are the cheese cake man, tongkat is fatt choy and if you need to be amused, I can amuse. Convinced enough?
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Then why are you forgetting about you agreeing that the Malays demand key positions, scholarships and loans only for the Malays? Forgetful?
puchongite
post Oct 25 2019, 11:36 AM

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QUOTE(ramz @ Oct 25 2019, 11:18 AM)
Ok how do we fight this idea? There is no way!

Malaysia:
1. won't let other ideology take control coz we got raja and sultans.
2. Cannot propogate other religions, so islam has just stifled the competition at hello.
3. Cannot apostate, meaning islam will never shrink.
4. Cannot criticize, meaning islam will always be the truth, coz nobody is opposing.
4. islam impose on other religions (disguised as race), meaning islam ratio will just continue to grow until we become like saudi.

First we need level playing field. But we won't get that.

Malaysia will forever me a mediocre country, or worst.
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Malaysia is hopeless, it can only get worse, not better.

If you keep tap on the activities in Xinjang, then you might get some idea.

The 'training camp' or the 'vocational school' are some of the activities which are well known and famous or notorious depending on your view.

The government also encourage those moderate Muslims in Xinjang to publish video of the everyday life. So you can see many Xinjang Uighur muslim video. They are definitely a lot more open than those in Malaysia. They are not wearing hijab. They walk around with the long hair. They speak fluent Mandarin. They sing and dance. From the making of these videos, the creators also make money from it. And they are happy.

This post has been edited by puchongite: Oct 25 2019, 01:36 PM

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