Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

5 Pages < 1 2 3 4 > » Bottom

Outline · [ Standard ] · Linear+

> Mistreatment of China's Uighur, Why China resort to inhumane treatment

views
     
Spear2
post Oct 9 2019, 11:47 AM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
4,395 posts

Joined: Oct 2017


QUOTE(ramz @ Oct 9 2019, 07:43 AM)
Mistreatment is not ok no matter what. For Uighurs case, is something like preemptive strikes on Muslim before they start to organize to be a force that will threaten China's narrative.

But China must learn that should not be the way to handle conflicts. Don't learn from Malaysia.

Must I tell China the right way? Is what I do. Convince Muslims that islam is a false religion. Don't force, don't impose. Do reverse dakwah. That's it. And if there is promotion to violence, haul those people up, not haul up 2 million people, that's not the way.

Morality is a funny thing. If u do something wrong often and prevasively enough, it will start to look acceptable. Then it becomes the new morality standard. So it's very important to condemn it at the first sign of human rights violation. Even in this forum there are people saying it's ok because others are doing it.

Don't take Human rights violations lightly .
*
I have read a number of articles, some painted China as an evil regime, forcing 1M Uighur population into detention camp similar to Nazi, maybe gassed them to reduce the number or forced abortion to reduce the population etc ..., some reports pointed out the inconsistencies and lack of concrete evidence, and visits by foreign investigators yielded nothing substantial other than the "education" camps to reduce extremism.

I think the truth is probably somewhere in between. There are some gross exaggeration from the western media, taken from a handful of people who have suffered under the callous and rough mistreatment, dozens of extremist suspects were even put to death and having the stories blown up and viral'ed.

But look at the background. This is China communism coming to age, even the Tiananmen protest 30 years ago was brutally crushed with hundred of deaths. China will not tolerate extremism in any form that departed from central doctrine. That is the dark side of having 30 years bullet train progress elevated 1 billion people out of poverty and abysmal living conditions, instead of the democracy and liberalism suggested by the soft approach in your bolded statement.

Do you think you can convince the Muslims? How many years you need and what tools are at your disposal? It is very likely if you come out in the open and continue your reformation cry, you will be placed in a religious correction center ... smile.gif

TSramz
post Oct 9 2019, 12:09 PM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
6,339 posts

Joined: Jan 2009
QUOTE(Spear2 @ Oct 9 2019, 11:47 AM)
I have read a number of articles, some painted China as an evil regime, forcing 1M Uighur population into detention camp similar to Nazi, maybe gassed them to reduce the number or forced abortion to reduce the population etc ..., some reports pointed out the inconsistencies and lack of concrete evidence, and visits by foreign  investigators yielded nothing substantial other than the "education" camps to reduce extremism.

I think the truth is probably somewhere in between. There are some gross exaggeration from the western media, taken from a handful of people who have suffered under the callous and rough mistreatment, dozens of extremist suspects were even put to death and having the stories blown up and viral'ed.

But look at the background. This is China communism coming to age, even the Tiananmen protest 30 years ago was brutally crushed with hundred of deaths. China will not tolerate extremism in any form that departed from central doctrine. That is the dark side of having 30 years bullet train progress elevated 1 billion people out of poverty and abysmal living conditions, instead of the democracy and liberalism suggested by the soft approach in your bolded statement.

Do you think you can convince the Muslims? How many years you need and what tools are at your disposal? It is very likely if you come out in the open and continue your reformation cry, you will be placed in a religious correction center ... smile.gif
*

China is doing the "no nonsense" way. That is against the morality I have been upholding for many years. I can't accept that. It will set president on the accepted morality that authority can bulldoze its way to make things "right' in the name of "preemtive measures". Preemptive measures to violence I agree. But not to ideology. But what if the ideology have violence within? That's a tough call to make. But I stand we still need concrete evidence of the manifested violence it will cause. But I don't think China is doing it on that reason. They just don't want a "political ideology" to flourish. Is like Malays defending their "must always be in power" agenda. Same thing. Which I can't accept.

Spear2
post Oct 9 2019, 12:34 PM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
4,395 posts

Joined: Oct 2017


QUOTE(ramz @ Oct 9 2019, 12:09 PM)
China is doing the "no nonsense" way. That is against the morality I have been upholding for many years. I can't accept that. It will set president on the accepted morality that authority can bulldoze its way to make things "right' in the name of "preemtive measures". Preemptive measures to violence I agree. But not to ideology. But what if the ideology have violence within? That's a tough call to make. But I stand we still need concrete evidence of the manifested violence it will cause. But I don't think China is doing it on that reason. They just don't want a "political ideology" to flourish. Is like Malays defending their "must always be in power" agenda. Same thing. Which I can't accept.
*
This is the kind of moral dilemma one has to face. Consequentialism versus deontology

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consequentialism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deontological_ethics

Star Trek : the needs of many outweigh the need of a few smile.gif
Pikichu
post Oct 9 2019, 01:19 PM

On my way
****
Junior Member
518 posts

Joined: Jan 2019

QUOTE(puchongite @ Sep 29 2019, 02:31 PM)
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «
*
+1 Thank you for sharing the youtube. The comment's in youtube shows one aspect of the reality.

QUOTE(ramz @ Oct 9 2019, 07:43 AM)
Mistreatment is not ok no matter what. For Uighurs case, is something like preemptive strikes on Muslim before they start to organize to be a force that will threaten China's narrative.

But China must learn that should not be the way to handle conflicts. Don't learn from Malaysia.

Must I tell China the right way? Is what I do. Convince Muslims that islam is a false religion. Don't force, don't impose. Do reverse dakwah. That's it. And if there is promotion to violence, haul those people up, not haul up 2 million people, that's not the way.

Morality is a funny thing. If u do something wrong often and prevasively enough, it will start to look acceptable. Then it becomes the new morality standard. So it's very important to condemn it at the first sign of human rights violation. Even in this forum there are people saying it's ok because others are doing it.

Don't take Human rights violations lightly .
*
Right, mistreatment is not alright.

On 5th July 2009, riot and chaos by extremists occured. So the initiative is not preemptive.
PRC deploy security force but there were no ends to the violence.
PRC did something few other countries attempted, education.
West called it camps which it does look like it.

The nature of extremist is brainwashing, seclusion and segregation. They would not even consider medicine for the sick.

Fast forward to date, locals especially women can socialize and work in society.
37 states praise XinJiang https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-xi...s-idUSKCN1U721X
Mean while rest of the world still dealing with terror. Saudi Arabia amassing war machine over historic levels.

They have a different culture and system. They do not vote and do not use 2 party system. Yet the taught the locals language, law, skills.
They did not teach another religion in the camps. Muslims are still Muslims.

As oppose to a western system in Hong Kong, 2 million are rioting in violence, injuring locals, vandalising facilities, for months now.
Yet HK let them protest and hardly killed 21 dead like in Iraq.

It is good that you voice out the wrongs. Unfortunately extremism and terror continues to exist in the year 2019.
As the youtube Puchongnite shared, some countries still being victim to terror unlike in XinJiang.
It is hard to see back then they burn national flags including MY but today tourist feel safe in XinJiang.

Human rights are important but Malaysia is anti ICERD, so we respect the majority. What happen in XinJiang is solved according to their system.

QUOTE(Spear2 @ Oct 9 2019, 11:47 AM)
I have read a number of articles, some painted China as an evil regime, forcing 1M Uighur population into detention camp similar to Nazi, maybe gassed them to reduce the number or forced abortion to reduce the population etc ..., some reports pointed out the inconsistencies and lack of concrete evidence, and visits by foreign  investigators yielded nothing substantial other than the "education" camps to reduce extremism.

I think the truth is probably somewhere in between. There are some gross exaggeration from the western media, taken from a handful of people who have suffered under the callous and rough mistreatment, dozens of extremist suspects were even put to death and having the stories blown up and viral'ed.

But look at the background. This is China communism coming to age, even the Tiananmen protest 30 years ago was brutally crushed with hundred of deaths. China will not tolerate extremism in any form that departed from central doctrine. That is the dark side of having 30 years bullet train progress elevated 1 billion people out of poverty and abysmal living conditions, instead of the democracy and liberalism suggested by the soft approach in your bolded statement.

Do you think you can convince the Muslims? How many years you need and what tools are at your disposal? It is very likely if you come out in the open and continue your reformation cry, you will be placed in a religious correction center ... smile.gif
*
China is an evil regime. No voting regime. Until they stamp down corruption. Today west continues to propoganda against PRC.
If their system is wrong then there would be riots and civil unrest. Just like Hong Kong which the youth were educated / brainwashed by colonial powers.
To riot in such manner, planning, equipment, they have to be well funded.

PRC knows it cannot impose their system on the world. But they realize how western powers dominate the world. So for them not to be consumed, PRC must survive and thrive. Surely India, Brazil, Africa are not doing anything and Russia has been painted the villain.

Muslims in MY cannot be convinced because the constitution states of it. Neither would I want to try. Respect them as they are. But up to a point where they do not violate others' rights as stated in the constitution.

QUOTE(ramz @ Oct 9 2019, 12:09 PM)
China is doing the "no nonsense" way. That is against the morality I have been upholding for many years. I can't accept that. It will set president on the accepted morality that authority can bulldoze its way to make things "right' in the name of "preemtive measures". Preemptive measures to violence I agree. But not to ideology. But what if the ideology have violence within? That's a tough call to make. But I stand we still need concrete evidence of the manifested violence it will cause. But I don't think China is doing it on that reason. They just don't want a "political ideology" to flourish. Is like Malays defending their "must always be in power" agenda. Same thing. Which I can't accept.
*
Would you fight a war in a nonsense way?
Would you make friends with terrorist?
So in dealing with corruption, stern and effective method must be employed. Rule of law.
Employing education to fend off extremism and terror has resulted in what XinJiang has to day.

As the youtube Puchongnite shared, even multiple states were invited to experience the change.
It is not perfect where everyone became rich like Norway. But the extreme thought have been enlighten by education.

In this case it was not a tough call to make. They tried enforcement. Naturally they progress down this path.
After 2019 years why are there still so much terror.... that is the main question.

Malays are forever in power. The monarchy, government, military, police and economy are all controlled so well that even after 60 years, MY fail to achieve high income economy that people are still 'happy'
TSramz
post Oct 9 2019, 07:03 PM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
6,339 posts

Joined: Jan 2009
QUOTE(Pikichu @ Oct 9 2019, 01:19 PM)
+1 Thank you for sharing the youtube. The comment's in youtube shows one aspect of the reality.
Right, mistreatment is not alright.

On 5th July 2009, riot and chaos by extremists occured. So the initiative is not preemptive.
PRC deploy security force but there were no ends to the violence.
PRC did something few other countries attempted, education.
West called it camps which it does look like it.

The nature of extremist is brainwashing, seclusion and segregation. They would not even consider medicine for the sick.

Fast forward to date, locals especially women can socialize and work in society.
37 states praise XinJiang https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-xi...s-idUSKCN1U721X
Mean while rest of the world still dealing with terror. Saudi Arabia amassing war machine over historic levels.

They have a different culture and system. They do not vote and do not use 2 party system. Yet the taught the locals language, law, skills.
They did not teach another religion in the camps. Muslims are still Muslims.

As oppose to a western system in Hong Kong, 2 million are rioting in violence, injuring locals, vandalising facilities, for months now.
Yet HK let them protest and hardly killed 21 dead like in Iraq.

It is good that you voice out the wrongs. Unfortunately extremism and terror continues to exist in the year 2019.
As the youtube Puchongnite shared, some countries still being victim to terror unlike in XinJiang.
It is hard to see back then they burn national flags including MY but today tourist feel safe in XinJiang.

Human rights are important but Malaysia is anti ICERD, so we respect the majority. What happen in XinJiang is solved according to their system.
China is an evil regime. No voting regime. Until they stamp down corruption. Today west continues to propoganda against PRC.
If their system is wrong then there would be riots and civil unrest. Just like Hong Kong which the youth were educated / brainwashed by colonial powers.
To riot in such manner, planning, equipment, they have to be well funded.

PRC knows it cannot impose their system on the world. But they realize how western powers dominate the world. So for them not to be consumed, PRC must survive and thrive. Surely India, Brazil, Africa are not doing anything and Russia has been painted the villain.

Muslims in MY cannot be convinced because the constitution states of it. Neither would I want to try. Respect them as they are. But up to a point where they do not violate others' rights as stated in the constitution.
Would you fight a war in a nonsense way?
Would you make friends with terrorist?
So in dealing with corruption, stern and effective method must be employed. Rule of law.
Employing education to fend off extremism and terror has resulted in what XinJiang has to day.

As the youtube Puchongnite shared, even multiple states were invited to experience the change.
It is not perfect where everyone became rich like Norway. But the extreme thought have been enlighten by education.

In this case it was not a tough call to make. They tried enforcement. Naturally they progress down this path.
After 2019 years why are there still so much terror.... that is the main question.

Malays are forever in power. The monarchy, government, military, police and economy are all controlled so well that even after 60 years, MY fail to achieve high income economy that people are still 'happy'
*

Malaysia was formed with the wrong morality . But I agree there is nothing we can do about it. So let's not harp on it, but instead continue promoting morality based on good principles. But Constitution aside, we must condemn all other discrimination.

tictac88
post Oct 9 2019, 07:05 PM

Getting Started
**
Junior Member
171 posts

Joined: Apr 2016
those are separatists, so cannot simply let them run free just like that

This post has been edited by tictac88: Oct 9 2019, 07:13 PM
tictac88
post Oct 9 2019, 07:21 PM

Getting Started
**
Junior Member
171 posts

Joined: Apr 2016
QUOTE(ramz @ Oct 9 2019, 07:03 PM)
Malaysia was formed with the wrong morality . But I agree there is nothing we can do about it. So let's not harp on it, but instead continue promoting morality based on good principles. But Constitution aside, we must condemn all other discrimination.
*
we can voice out our concerns with human rights issue. but among those who are currently actively campaigning against china now, some of them do not really have human rights as their core concerns. their true aim is actually much worse. they want to destablize a currently otherwise peaceful region. and if this is successful, such human rights issue will pale in comparison to the true terror that is going to happen when the region is in true chaos. just look at syria.

zamorin
post Oct 9 2019, 09:38 PM

Resident Carouser
*******
Senior Member
6,775 posts

Joined: Aug 2011
From: Malaysia Darul Harapan

QUOTE(tictac88 @ Oct 9 2019, 07:21 PM)
we can voice out our concerns with human rights issue. but among those who are currently actively campaigning against china now, some of them do not really have human rights as their core concerns. their true aim is actually much worse. they want to destablize a currently otherwise peaceful region. and if this is successful, such human rights issue will pale in comparison to the true terror that is going to happen when the region is in true chaos. just look at syria.
*
I have issues about foreign power trying to destabilize China but that shouldn't take into account the genuine repression of Chinese government against their minorities, like you seem to dismiss so readily.
zamorin
post Oct 9 2019, 09:38 PM

Resident Carouser
*******
Senior Member
6,775 posts

Joined: Aug 2011
From: Malaysia Darul Harapan

QUOTE(tictac88 @ Oct 9 2019, 07:21 PM)
we can voice out our concerns with human rights issue. but among those who are currently actively campaigning against china now, some of them do not really have human rights as their core concerns. their true aim is actually much worse. they want to destablize a currently otherwise peaceful region. and if this is successful, such human rights issue will pale in comparison to the true terror that is going to happen when the region is in true chaos. just look at syria.
*
I have issues about foreign power trying to destabilize China but that shouldn't take into account the genuine repression of Chinese government against their minorities, like you seem to dismiss so readily.

Just because NATO, U.S and its allies commit crimes in Syria and other places shouldn't be used as an excuse for China or any other countries to do the same.

This post has been edited by zamorin: Oct 9 2019, 09:40 PM
TSramz
post Oct 10 2019, 04:34 AM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
6,339 posts

Joined: Jan 2009
QUOTE(tictac88 @ Oct 9 2019, 07:21 PM)
we can voice out our concerns with human rights issue. but among those who are currently actively campaigning against china now, some of them do not really have human rights as their core concerns. their true aim is actually much worse. they want to destablize a currently otherwise peaceful region. and if this is successful, such human rights issue will pale in comparison to the true terror that is going to happen when the region is in true chaos. just look at syria.
*

I disagree. Human right violations promotes immorality. Terrorism can be dealt without violating Human rights. There is a way without resorting to Human rights abuse.

For example countries that are well known to violate Human rights like Saudi Arabia, iran, Afghanistan, Malaysia don't think they are violating Human rights. Because that's the nature of how morality works. When it is violated pervasively, it becomes the new standard, and is hard to revert back. Just look at Malaysia's racism policy (i.e bumiputera policy). Do you think it will be abolished any time soon? No. Because it is the new morality standard.

We must take Human rights issues seriously. Don't bulldoze it with the hope you will achieve something greater. You won't.

This post has been edited by ramz: Oct 10 2019, 04:35 AM
puchongite
post Oct 10 2019, 07:44 AM

10k Club
********
All Stars
18,519 posts

Joined: May 2008


UN Ambassadors from 50 countries voice support to China position on Xinjiang issues.



These countries which oppose China's policy have these characteristics :-

1. Developed countries.
2. Non-Muslim majority countries.
touristking
post Oct 17 2019, 04:21 PM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
2,629 posts

Joined: Jun 2017
QUOTE(Pikichu @ Oct 8 2019, 07:00 AM)
So it is ok to mistreat you biggrin.gif LOL
*
Which country doesn't mistreat their people? Spain doesn't. USA doesn't. So you want to move to Mars?

alhelmy
post Oct 21 2019, 10:24 AM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
3,842 posts

Joined: Nov 2015
QUOTE(touristking @ Oct 17 2019, 04:21 PM)
Which country doesn't mistreat their people? Spain doesn't. USA doesn't. So you want to move to Mars?
*
All countries have some form of supremacy, goes by various names, some official by law, some unofficially, including white privilege, etc


TSramz
post Oct 21 2019, 10:33 AM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
6,339 posts

Joined: Jan 2009
QUOTE(alhelmy @ Oct 21 2019, 10:24 AM)
All countries have some form of supremacy, goes by various names, some official by law, some unofficially, including white privilege, etc
*

only racist will think it is normal to have some form of supremacy.

We are here trying to change the status quo for a better tomorrow, then comes the devil to say "it is normal what"

alhelmy
post Oct 21 2019, 02:10 PM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
3,842 posts

Joined: Nov 2015
QUOTE(ramz @ Oct 10 2019, 04:34 AM)
I disagree. Human right violations promotes immorality. Terrorism can be dealt without violating Human rights. There is a way without resorting to Human rights abuse.

For example countries that are well known to violate Human rights like Saudi Arabia, iran, Afghanistan, Malaysia don't think they are violating Human rights. Because that's the nature of how morality works. When it is violated pervasively, it becomes the new standard, and is hard to revert back. Just look at Malaysia's racism policy (i.e bumiputera policy). Do you think it will be abolished any time soon? No. Because it is the new morality standard.

We must take Human rights issues seriously. Don't bulldoze it with the hope you will achieve something greater. You won't.
*
Birthrights is not racism. It is privileges by entitlement. It is guaranteed by the Constitution and safeguarded by the YDPA. When people like you do not like the rule of law, you call it racism.





TSramz
post Oct 21 2019, 02:16 PM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
6,339 posts

Joined: Jan 2009
QUOTE(alhelmy @ Oct 21 2019, 02:10 PM)
Birthrights is not racism. It is privileges by entitlement. It is guaranteed by the Constitution and safeguarded by the YDPA. When people like you  do not like  the rule of law, you call it racism.
*
Entitlement means someone is entitled, and someone else is not entitled. Racism in action is exactly that.
alhelmy
post Oct 21 2019, 02:41 PM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
3,842 posts

Joined: Nov 2015
QUOTE(ramz @ Oct 21 2019, 02:16 PM)
Entitlement means someone is entitled, and someone else is not entitled. Racism in action is exactly that.
*
It's birthrights. No different than the birthrights of the first born (eg. birthrights in Jacob vs Esau, etc), or a manager's entitlement to a company car, etc, an expatriate's entitlement of housing allowance, etc. This is how a capitalist society works, if you want fairness in all, then go live in a socialist society.
Spear2
post Oct 21 2019, 02:47 PM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
4,395 posts

Joined: Oct 2017


QUOTE(alhelmy @ Oct 21 2019, 02:41 PM)
It's birthrights. No different than the birthrights of the first born (eg. birthrights in Jacob vs Esau, etc), or a manager's entitlement to a company car, etc, an expatriate's entitlement of housing allowance, etc. This is how a capitalist society works, if you want fairness in all, then go live in a socialist society.
*
You mean someone getting a higher salary is birthright, lol.
TSramz
post Oct 21 2019, 02:48 PM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
6,339 posts

Joined: Jan 2009
QUOTE(alhelmy @ Oct 21 2019, 02:41 PM)
It's birthrights. No different than the birthrights of the first born (eg. birthrights in Jacob vs Esau, etc), or a manager's entitlement to a company car, etc, an expatriate's entitlement of housing allowance, etc. This is how a capitalist society works, if you want fairness in all, then go live in a socialist society.
*
Since when capitalist society give rights by race? So in other words you saying the bumis are like managers and non bumis are like Kuli? Good analogy.
zamorin
post Oct 21 2019, 03:20 PM

Resident Carouser
*******
Senior Member
6,775 posts

Joined: Aug 2011
From: Malaysia Darul Harapan

QUOTE(alhelmy @ Oct 21 2019, 02:41 PM)
It's birthrights. No different than the birthrights of the first born (eg. birthrights in Jacob vs Esau, etc), or a manager's entitlement to a company car, etc, an expatriate's entitlement of housing allowance, etc. This is how a capitalist society works, if you want fairness in all, then go live in a socialist society.
*
You are one confused person. You don't even know the difference between capitalism and socialism and you think Malaysia is purely a capitalist country with no socialist components. You don't even seem to understand that the "tongkat" that you so much crave for is a socialist component.

The root cause of racism is ignorance. You are the best proof of that.

This post has been edited by zamorin: Oct 21 2019, 03:34 PM

5 Pages < 1 2 3 4 > » Top
 

Switch to:
| Lo-Fi Version
0.0384sec    1.71    5 queries    GZIP Disabled
Time is now: 18th November 2019 - 07:42 PM