I think it is totally BS. no such thing. if gomen honestly want to sign ICC. they can just sign it. no need to give an excuse. dah jadi gomen..apa takut.

Instead of making all this useless forum and try to educate people. why not just ask our gomen to sign it. since when gomen need rakyat approval for this such thing. Gomen know what best for the rakyat...

People like you are useful tools for politicians

belum sign already protest hari ni perpaduan ummah protest kat kl..

ya. very annoying.

it is a double edge sword broh...

Deep State won't be logical for poor people, when you're from elite backgrounds- then it will make sense.

hi

Hi awak
Eh eh someone's birthday inkambing

enjoy deep fake better.

No, its bullshit. Only deep throat is real

dude. Jurassic Park is not real okay.

Deep state exist, or else why Daim calling the shots on ECRL and issues with China instead of Finance or Transport or even Foreign minister.
An airport project up north shelved since the 90's get revived.
AP queen get advisory role on important matters.

Then some macai like AllinG would jump in and say better than the deep state of Najib.

I think so

I think people have this shallow minded idea that political leaders can do whatever they wish regardless of existing laws and regulations, and when the civil service stops them citing breaches with these rules, they say its 'deep state'.

You can always railroad these regulations, but then youll end up with yes-men civil servants.

got najib = no state at all so u choose then

Its true given that every time we change a leader, we would have a new AG and IGP as well.

Can you even describe what is the "Deep State" in the US and Malaysian context, and compare and contrast the two?

It's a term picked up from the US where their standards of democracy and check and balance on executive power is far, far higher than ours.

How does Malaysia compare to US in terms of effective executive, judicial and legislative power, and what is the (alleged) effect of "Deep State" to Malaysia and US?

deep state tu apa? tidur nyenyak ke?

True, say for the example above I given, that a person without official position and wasn't an elected representative involving in making and negotiating big issues for our nation.
This person have a stronghold in politics for many decades before, so is the stated woman who is a former minister and member of the parliament.

HISHAMUDDIN RAIS on deep state

very loooooooong

https://www.malaysiakini.com/columns/473491

Mat Songel, daulah terpendam sailang Dr M


Pada 6 April 2019, Menteri Luar Saifuddin Abdullah bercakap dengan Malaysiakini tentang kemungkinan wujudnya daulah terpendam yang merancang rampasan kuasa.

Kata-kata menteri luar ini adalah pencerahan rentetan daripada kenyataan Perdana Menteri Dr Mahathir Muhamad yang muncul pada 5 April 2019.

Mahathir mengumumkan tentang kewujudan projek sailang yang dirancang untuk menggagalkan Statut Rom Perjanjian Mahkamah Antarabangsa (ICC).

Saifuddin yang lemah lembut lagi berbudi bahasa dengan penuh diplomasi menerangkan:

"Ada sebuah negara yang tidak pernah berlaku transisi demokratik, berlaku satu pilihan raya selepas kebangkitan rakyat, seorang presiden dipilih. Dan presiden itu dianggap the first elected democratically president and he formed the government (presiden pertama yang dipilih secara demokratik dan dia telah membentuk kerajaan).

"Dalam masa setahun seorang jeneral mengetuai satu rampasan kuasa dan menjatuhkan kerajaan yang dipilih secara demokratik.

"Kenyataan Dr Mahathir, kerisauan saya perkara sedemikian boleh berlaku di negara ini. Kita mesti elakkan perkara ini berlaku. Kita harus mempertahankan kebangkitan rakyat dan pilihan raya rakyat," katanya dalam satu wawancara dengan Malaysiakini.

Hishamuddin Rais yang bukan menteri luar dan tidak berdiplomasi menjelaskan bahawa negara yang dimaksudkan oleh Saifuddin Abdullah ialah Mesir.

Presiden yang dijatuhkan oleh daulah terpendam ialah Mohamed Morsi yang sah dipilih oleh rakyat Mesir.

Yang menjatuhkan ialah komplot Jeneral Abdel Fattah el-Sisi (gambar) dengan kerja sama daulah terpendam Mesir. Kini el-Sisi mengangkat dirinya sebagai Presiden Mesir.

Bekas presiden Morsi kini dalam penjara diancam dengan hukum gantung kerana mengkhianat. Khalas.

Saifuddin dengan penuh diplomasi menyatakan kebimbangan dirinya bahawa rampasan kuasa oleh daulah terpendam boleh berlaku.

Di Mesir daulah terpendam bergerak. Di Malaysia daulah terpendam wujud. Mustahil di Malaysia mereka tidak bergerak.

Manakala ucapan Mahathir pula telah menyatakan bagaimana Malaysia menggantung pengiktirafan Statut Rom untuk sementara.

Menurut Mahathir gantung sementara kerana berlakunya kekalutan.

Menurut pandangan Mahathir ini semua adalah kekeliruan dan kekalutan yang dirancang dan disusun. Walhal Malaysia telah menandatangani perjanjian Statur Rom ICC. Amin.

Anak semua bangsa wajib sesama memahami apa itu daulah terpendam. Siapa dia daulah terpendam. Sila lihat dan dengar dengan hati-hati klip ucapan Mahathir tentang perkara ini yang boleh ditonton dalam YouTube.




Klip ucapan Mahathir ini sarat dengan pelbagai bentuk maklumat. Kita tidak perlu ada ijazah sain politik dari Havard Universiti untuk memahami ucapan Mahathir ini.

Dari segi semiotik kita boleh baca tanda dan makna ucapan Mahathir. Dari bahasa badan kita baca bahawa amat jelas Mahathir ini marah.

Jeng jeng jeng. Marah kepada siapa?

Pada petang Sabtu 20 April di sebuah hotel Kuala Lumpur dalam satu program Amanah, Menteri Wilayah Persekutuan Khalid Samad Menteri Wilayah juga telah menyebut daulah terpendam.

Khalid memberi tahu kepada ahli dan aktivis parti Amanah agar berwaspada tentang kewujudan daulah terpendam.

Malah Khalid memberi ingatan kepada anggota parti agar jangan terperangkap dalam jaringan perang saraf daulah terpendam.

Apa sedang dibuat daulah terpendam?

Khalid mengalu-alukan kritikan terhadap kerajaan PH tetapi setiap kritikan itu wajib berasas dan bukan hentam semberono hasil dorongan daulah terpendam.

Bila dikahwinkan klip YouTube Mahathir dengan kenyataan Saifuddin Abdullah dan ucapan Khalid Samad maka yang muncul satu persoalan: Apa sedang dilakukan oleh daulah terpendam?

Bila perkataan daulah terpendam muncul maka Hishamudin Rais wajib membuat analisa untuk anak semua bangsa. Analisa yang senang difahami dan mudah dihayati.

Justeru, menjadi tanggung jawab saya untuk menghuraikan babak-babak di belakang kenyataan-kenyataan ini. Apa maknanya dan tanda-tanda dari kenyataan dan ucapan ini. Amin.

Dari rujukan sejarah kita tahu bahawa idea dan kaedah daulah terpendam ini telah wujud semenjak zaman Greek kuno lagi.

Dalam sejarah politik moden secara resmi daulah terpendam diwujudkan secara tersusun oleh Mustafa Kemal Ataturk di Turki pada tahun 1923.

Daulah terpendam dari dahulu hingga ke hari ini adalah jaringan, kabel dan sel-sel rahsia, yang rasmi dan tidak rasmi. Daulah terpendam bergerak untuk mempertahankan kepentingan masing-masing.

Mereka mungkin terdiri dari sosok tertinggi pasukan tentera, lembaga risikan atau penjawat awam.

Para penjawat awam dan pegawai tertinggi kerajaan berkepentingan untuk menjaga gred Jusa dan periuk nasi mereka. Memastikan daulah wujud agar mereka terus bekerja.

Anwar ganti Mahathir

Wujud juga sel yang mempertahan satu-satu ideologi. Secara subversif sosok ini secara tersusun dan tidak tersusun akan bergerak untuk menafikan niat, dasar dan cita-cita kerajaan yang diplih oleh rakyat.

Sosok-sosok apparatchik tertinggi dari syarikat kerajaan (GLC) juga akan bersama daulah terpendam jika kuasa dan kepentingan ekonomi mereka tergugat.

Sama bersekongkol ini ialah para cukong dan kaum pemodal yang mahu memastikan mereka terus mendapat kontrak dan laba keuntungan yang berterusan.

Jangan lupa di Malaysia daulah terpendam juga termasuk sosok-sosok ahli politik yang kalah dan ahli politik yang bernafsu besar. Ini termasuk golongan feudal yang merasa diri mereka tidak difeudalkan lagi. Amin.

Anak semua bangsa wajib sedar latar lanskap dan wacana politik Malaysia semenjak 9 Mei 2018 masih lagi sibuk soh seh soh seh dengan: Apakah Anwar Ibrahim diyakini oleh orang ramai untuk menggantikan Mahathir Mohamad?

Persoalan siapa selepas Mahathir telah merampas agenda utama kemenangan 9 Mei. Agenda utama Pakatan Harapan (PH) untuk membawa perubahan struktural telah dirampas.

Para wartawan jadi hingar-bingar bising dan sibuk ke hulu ke hilir bertanya: Dalam masa terdekat ini apakah Anwar dipercayai oleh Mahathir sebagai pengganti?

Walhal yang wajib ditanyakan untuk dijadikan perbualan nasional oleh anak semua bangsa ialah apakah bentuk reformasi dan perubahan struktural yang dirancang oleh PH.

Atau apa agenda ekonomi terdekat untuk menampung harga barang keperluan yang mahal. Apa agenda sosial PH untuk jangka panjang dalam usaha menyelesaikan persoalan nasional, perumahan atau persekolah dan lain-lain. Khalas

Siri tulisan "Merakam Sejarah" oleh Hishamuddin Rais dalam Malaysiakini adalah bukti wujudnya watak-watak yang mahu mensailang Mahathir.

Awalnya Mahathir cuba disailang daripada mengangkat sumpah sebagai perdana menteri pada pagi 10 Mei 2018. Apabila ini gagal lalu diwujudkan projek gelap untuk menubuhkan negara Melayu-Islam dan untuk menolak Mahathir dan PH.

Terbukti - projek sailang ini telah beberapa kali gagal. Media menghebohkan kenyatan PAS tentang projek undi tidak percaya terhadap Mahathir.

Mat Songel muncul kembali dan telah mengambil teori serta pendekatan kaum kiri - mendirikan - united front - barisan bersatu.

Barisan bersatu ini berpayung dalam satu agenda - memastikan Mahathir tergelincir atau diundurkan secepat mungkin.

Barisan bersatu ini berjaya diwujudkan kerana ada kepentingan bersama antara Mat Songel dan daulah terpendam. Dalam masa yang sama para politikus dari zaman Najib dan kuncu-kuncu Najib ikut sama. Ini kerana mereka berhadapan dengan penjara.

Justeru, agenda PH untuk membuka ruang demokrasi melalui Statut Rom disabotaj. Apa yang telah berlaku sebenarnya adalah sambungan projek sailang Mat Songel.

Bersultan di bukit, beraja di pub

Usaha mensabotaj pendemokrasian PH ini juga telah mendapat restu dari kumpulan tauke pasir. Sang tauke merasa perniagaan jual beli pasir makin terdesak.

Pada satu ketika dahulu tauke pasir bersultan di bukit dan beraja di pub. Tepuk dada tanya Singapura. Semuanya berubah apabila rakyat memilih Pakatan Harapan sebagai kerajaan baru.

Apakah semua yang tertera dalam tulisan ini ini hanya cerita rekaan? Apakah semua ini hanyalah kisah-kisah dongeng?

Atau mengikut pandangan Anwar Ibrahim semua ini hanyalah labun penglipur lara daripada Hishamuddin Rais.

Bukan. Tidak. Ini bukan kisah dongeng. Saifuddin Abdullah bukan kaki putar. Khalid Samad juga bukan tukang karut.

Untuk membuktikan kesahihan apa yang saya tulis di atas, sila rujuk klip Malaysiakini dalam YouTube bertajuk - Mereka lebih pengkhianat dari saya.

Klip 5.47 saat ini adalah bukti apa yang saya nyatakan tentang Mat Songel, daulah terpendam dan tauke pasir.



Dalam klip ini Mahathir menerangkan duduk pekara bagaimana agenda demokrasi PH untuk menerima pakai Statut Rom telah diputar belitkan. Kekalutan sengaja ditimbulkan.

Secara licik kekalutan ini telah menuduh Mahathir sebagai pengkhianat menjual negara kepada orang asing.

"Mereka nak cuba gunakan untuk memburukan kerajaan, terutama saya kunun saya pengkhianat kepada bangsa saya.

"Sesiapa melanggar undang-undang, tak kira siapa sama ada mereka putera raja atau mat papa kerajaan akan mengambil tindakan.

"Mereka telah berjaya melakukan kekalutan dan kacau bilau dalam pemikiran orang rama bahawa undang-undang Statut Rom ini akan menafikan hak orang Melayu. Ini sebenarnya karut.

"Kalau tak sain Statut Rom kita boleh curi kita boleh buat macam-macam tak boleh ada tindakan. Tapi kerajaan ini akan bertindak jika kamu melaggar undang-undang.

"Kami tak peuli siapa kamu. Kami akan ambil tindakan terhadap kamu. Kalau kamu menjual tanah kepada orang asing kerana mencari duit kami akan ambil tindakan.

"Semua ini langkah politik untuk meminta raja-raja menyokong mereka. Ada keluarga raja yang campur tangan, niatnya ialah mengarahkan Raja Melayu menentang kerajaan hari ini. Ini niat mereka.

"Maka kami mengundur dari Statut Rom kerana kekalutan yang diwujudkan oleh beberapa sosok termasuk orang yang memiliki cita-cita politik.

Jeng jeng jeng: "Some people with political ambition (orang yang memilki cita-cita politik)."

Ini kata-kata Mahathir Muhamad di minit 4.50 saat dalam klip Malaysiakini yang tersimpan dalam YouTube.

Jangan tuduh Hishamuddin Rais buat kisah dongeng. Justeru siapa yang memiliki cita-cita politk ini?

Mustahil tauke pasir. Mustahil Cik Berahim. Mustahil Cik Ismail. Mustahil Mak Bedah. Mustahil Kak Kiah. Apakah ini kerja Mat Songel lagi? Tunggu minggu hadapan.

HISHAMUDDIN RAIS seorang aktivis politik, penulis dan pengarah filem.

Artikel ini pandangan peribadi penulis dan tidak semestinya mencerminkan pendirian rasmi redaksi Malaysiakini.

Im not sure that your understanding of a 'deep state' is accurate.

Other people wouldnt agree its deep state if these 'deep state people' are actually chosen by the political leaders themselves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_state
It can be GLC companies even, I don't see why it wasn't considered deep state by this definition.

No such things as bogeyman having power and all... Bullshit. I think why gomen make u turn is becouse of scared of the silent voters.

So.... Deep State = Silent Voter.

And neither of the examples you quoted were existing member the the previous regime, nor pushing agenda that is opposed to the current one.

Of course it hasn't been a boogeyman when the players are always there.
I rather believe that money is the more reliable source of factor and motivation.

A former finance minister wasn't a member of the previous regime?
The statement by the person I mention (Daim) on tol yesterday despite the election manifesto isn't pushing agenda?
What position he hold politically and officially?

dont blame MyJimmy for being simpletons

just look at america enough lah... powerful and super rich conglomerates playing games behind the scene lobbying the congress for their own gain

Millineal with too much TV House of cards always believe TV Series is a real thing.

Okay, so what makes this "Deep State" in US and in Malaysia?

illuminati, lalilulelo, the patriots, foxhound, you are all diamonds.

I didn't say about US.
I replied in post #22.

I gave you a few points in my previous post at what you should look at. That is hardly a worthy reply.

As I said earlier, the term was coined and chiefly employed in the US. To understand it, you have to understand its characteristics and the context which help defined it.

Then now you are asking in terms of a Malaysian context. So you have to differentiate how, in a different legal environment, the concept of a "Deep State" would apply.

At the very least... can you even define what is a "Deep State" and differentiate it from a Govt functioning normally as designed?

So you believe that since there is no separation of power between executive, judiciary and legislative that there is no deep state or the whole government is a deep state?
I would say that on the Malaysian context it wasn't functioning as designed, at least there is a Supreme Court judge who rules UMNO as illegal back then, I would argue that there is a deep state, since created by Dr M, which you might not be aware of since you are born in '91.

Also read my reply #25 for a recent action of a member of the deep state.

yes, he was a former finance minister - under the same prime minister as it is now. same goes with rafidah aziz.

with regard to his position, they were both given influence by the current prime minister. you don't 'deep state' against the current government, when you are appointed by the current government.

the fact that they do not have a formal position is literally an argument against the definition of deep state, which apply to people in the current structure. you can't be in deep state if you're not even part of the state, you know.

so yeah, i (and it seems its not only just me) really think you should re-examine what the term means.

Sorry, but I dont watch House of cards series yet, and no, I have old ic before , so you can guesstimate how old I am by now.

Sometimes, you should look around and think and you will realized that, not everything is as it seems

This post has been edited by JimbeamofNRT: May 4 2019, 11:35 PM

Real deep state,s buried deep inside your consciousness.. Your consciousness is just a facade

No, you seemed to have a misguided belief that deep state is of the opposition party, you seemed to think that deep state is a conspiracy group that have different agenda than the government, like an element of coup e'tat or such.
In reply #22, I quoted the key element "The intent of a deep state can include continuity of the state itself, job security for its members, enhanced power and authority, and the pursuit of ideological objectives."

The one who need to reexamine the term is you.

Also see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_state_in...e_United_States

The "white house plumbers" aka Committee for the Re-Election of the President is considered to be Deep state when they are exposed in the Watergate scandal when Richard Nixon is still in power.
How does your doesn't "deep state" against the current government hold water when they current government is the deep state itself?

This post has been edited by Angelic Layer: May 5 2019, 06:58 AM

Lets look at the first para of the link you yourself provided:



"Without reference to the consent of the governed as expressed through the formal political process", i.e. not voted.

So lets apply some logic here: does this apply to people who are directly appointed by a leader who was democratically chosen?

If thats still unclear to you, lets think about ut this way. Daim and rafidah were appointed to their roles as advisors by mahathir, without being elected themselves. Similarly, jared kushner and ivanka trump were also appointed by donald trump, without being elected themselves.

Youre saying that daim and rafidah are 'deep state'. Thats fine. Are you also saying that ivanka trump and her husband are also deep state?

They aren't in an official position or capacity, just like the White House plumbers and the committee for the re-election of the president, they are appointed the role by Nixon himself mind you.
Yet the watergate is considered a Deep State, especially their operation exposed and pulled down a president.

I would say yes, for your second point if they involve in the governmental process or operations of sorts, that's why they try to investigate the Russian link not too long ago.

And who else considered watergate as deep state, apart from yourself? As far as i can google, only right-wing media said watergate was deep state, and even then theyre referring to the senate's insistence on nixon's impeachment, rather than nixon's cronies.

On your second point, youre basically saying every political advisor, every party secretary, down to mp research assistants and interns as deep state. A vast majority of people in govt are not elected.

You want to try that definition again?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watergate_scandal#Aftermath
Four of the watergate five went to jail, and 69 of government officials being charged with 48 found guilty.
Tell me that wasn't a vast number of accomplice.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019.../?noredirect=on
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-03-22/w...deep-state-coup
https://warontherocks.com/2019/02/how-the-d...rica-a-history/

This is 3 second of search, if you could found it and wasn't a troll or cyber trooper, you probably spend too much time on pornhub.
What is the point you are proving?
Raising questions but not providing prove as others have already provided doesn't make you right.

We're not talking about the size, we're talking about your definition of what constitutes deep state. That zero hedge one in particular was the exact one that mentioned the democrat response to nixon as deep syate, not nixon's own.

Did you actually read the links?

No such thing as deep state in Malaysia. The gov scared of the silent majority. Look into the result of GE14. If Pas and Umno decide to combine their votes on GE14. PH will never be government.

Now with so many PH uturn. Popularity also in the toilet drain. They worried they will loose support by moob. So mamak said deep state movement might happen.

That's why they said mamak cannot be trusted. LGE is more honest to explain why so many u turn.

What nonsense you talk, you said "senate insistence on Nixon's impeachment rather than cronies" earlier.
Of course thief doesn't admit themselves as thieves, that goes for Najib at his reign as well, if there is an investigation against the gang of Mahathir that will be another story right?
If goes by your definition, Najib also not corrupt but claimed by PH and wasn't proven in court as well.

Anything you need to ask more?
Does asking more make you right?

This post has been edited by Angelic Layer: May 5 2019, 06:44 PM

become govt

takut oppo KEK

Before this. The Deep State of malaysia are lead by thanos himself. Thats why whoever defy his words are kick out.

Dumbass bijan with his skeleton all over the place actually defy him. Here we are today.

Now thanos consolidating power day by day. So theres a movement trying to cointain his influence.

Thats why even theres official cabinet, all the ministers. He still called his old guard. The people that he trust backing him up.

So tell me. This deep state or shadow government. Is it the one in power, or the one trying to cointain it? I dunno

You referred to nixon's plumbers and re-election committee as deep state, when the material you provided infer that it was the senate, calling for his impeachment (i.e. opposing a sitting president), who are deep state.

Basically, the proof you provided literally contradict your own definition. Thats why people are questioning whether you actually understand whats going on.

And asking questions doesnt make me right. Understanding things makes me right.

That was the proof you asking for when you question my definition on reply #22, but you certainly didn't listen and believe that deep state can only from the opposition despite my clear quote.
You still obsessively sticking to your own definition despite what others give when you ask.

Believe what you want, your own reality, not my problem.