Wondering if anyone here is up to snuff when it comes to video recording, HD recording in particular. Got my first taste with the current Xacti HD1A im using , but upon reflecting on the recorded clips, they are flavours of HD short of jaw-dropping.

Im about to drop down to Sony Style KLCC in a bit, to inspect a current finding i found out about their HDR-SR1E-to-PS3 compatibility, but what im more inclined to ask is somewhat of a broader nature: Which recording format carries the HD format better, HDV tapes or HDDs? Specifically, MPEG2 file streams or Sony/Panny's new AVCHD file transports?

Read and researched quite a bit, particularly Camcorderinfo.com, and they are in favour of Canon's HV20 which is HDV based, rather than anything HDD based, due to compression woes of the AVCHD format. Im leaning towards HDD-based camcorders, although i've placed image quality as first priority. Reason being, i mainly shoot my subjects in broad daylight, and very rarely would she, or us for that matter, be in twilight or low light situation. The convinience of HDD outweighs HDV tapes, although one could argue the importance of a format not prone to crash or mechanical failures such as hard drives.

To keep things short, i've another important vacation, and possibly one of the most important decision of my life to be made, coming pretty soon, and these occasions and events warrant archiving, recording and cherishing for the rest of our lives (mine and hers), in which brings up the reason why this thread is here in the first place.

So, i would be much appreciated if any video-filming gurus around here would embellish the virtues of which format is better (HDV vs HDD), and which brand to go for (Sony, Canon, Panasonic and JVC). The main criteria that remain constant here is it must be High Definition. I've shortlisted 3 of them here, not in any particular order, but they made change later once i made up my mind on which format to go for.

They are Canon HV20, JVC GZ-HD7 and Sony HDR-SR1E.

Canon HV20 for its top marks on image quality as well as low light performance, JVC GZ-HD7 for its generous recording capacity (60Gb), and Sony SR1E for build quality, picture quality (2nd to the Canon) and HDD convininiece. Of course, once i've decided on which format to use, some of thse option might change, but im setting my eyes on these three at the time being.

Criterias? Image quality, convinience of usage (both in operating the camera and swapping contents out of the camcorder), audio quality and price. Based on these, the current no.1 spot in my mind would be the Sony HDR-SR1E, but Europe and US are already getting their summer refresh of the current models, in the form of HDR-SR5E, 7E and 8E, and Malaysia is projected to receive them by July (still pending). Im not hot for the Canon HV20, since it's HDV based, but if the image quality proves to be significantly better than any of the Sonys, i might switch camp. The JVC model is there to keep both the Sonys and the Canons in check.

Pricewise, Canon HV20 is the cheapest at RM4699, Sony HDr-SR1E is at RM5999, while the JVC is a seriously sleek black sexy machine at RM6999. Out of these three, only the Sony and JVC is available locally. Not a big deal though, i can simply fly down to Singapore and get the Canon. Another option is see how the SR7E/8E performs once im in Auckland next Thursday and buy it there.

One slight problem though, the "E" moniker behind the model names on the Sony's represent shipment of the said model to countries grouped under PAL TV system. Although you might say the in HD world, there are no such thing as NTSC/PAL anymore, since we are dealing with the 720p and 1080i/p formats, the segregation still exists in the form of 1080i50Hz for PAL and 1080i60Hz for NTSC.

Why is this a big fuss you ask? Well, im planning to pipe the videos i've recorded on the Sony (should i decide to buy this) through the PS3, for video playback. The PS3 can read AVCHD file formats after recent firmware updates, and does it better than any CoreDuo Intels and the likes. The problem here is, I have a Japanese and a US PS3s, which if i am not mistaken, accepts only 1080i60Hz NTSC streams, which would be in contradictory to the streams recorded on the SR1E which would be 1080i50Hz PAL. Which is why im about to drop by Sony Style KLCC later for the investigation.

I could just simply pipe the videos through HDMI from the camcorder to the HDMI port on my Bravia X, sure no problems there, but the deal with the PS3 is for archiving and storage, as i have modded my Japanese PS3 with a larger 160Gb drive, which is perfect and idiot-proof for friends and relatives who are accustomed to channel-surf using remotes.

Pheww....long post there. Again, any takes on this? HDV or HDD? Canon, JVC or Sony? Help!

This post has been edited by stringfellow: Jun 20 2007, 02:02 AM

Can you please elaborate more on why you prefer HDV?

I've finally playtested the HV20 just now, just arrived today in Canon Bintang Maju in Maju Junction. The overall build quality is indeed feel cheap, but there is no denying its imaging capabilities. The Cinema 25P (Malaysia holds PAL's 25fps instead of NTSC's 24fps) does seem to alleviate the chronic symptoms of noise in low light conditions, but you'll have to make sure you steady-cam it or avoid erratic large scale movements, or your footage will become a motion-trailing mess. Not a good option in my book since i will mostly be mobile while recording in dimly lit situations.....hey, im not planning to tape porn on the HV20 on tripod here!

Went back to Sony Style KLCC and again tested the SR1E, this time had the camcorder connected via HDMI. What a difference! Coupled with the Bravia X on display there, i hardly see any difference between the SR1E and the high-end FX1! The more discrening details would lie in their recording as FX1 does MPEG2 at 25Mbps while the SR1E does AVCHD at 15Mbps, and AVCHD introduces noise during recording. Recorded a 30 second clip with still shots, slow pan, and zooming in and out , and reviewed it back on screen. My take? I guess i can live with the IQ. Sorry HV20, although you may look slightly better in image quality, but the thought of dealing with archaic tapes, forward-rewinding tapes to get to particular clips, and real-time capturing (1 hr 30 minutes clip requires 1hr 30 minutes capturing onto an M2TS stream on your hard drives, and that is before you even start editing! ) is not my idea of having fun. These cons far outweight the advantage of slightly better image quality.

Seems like it's a firm decision already now, right? Not exactly. I've eliminated to include any HDV models in the potential choices, but there is another problem: HDR-SR7E and SR8E is looming over the horizon. At the moment SR1E is king, but with SR7E's 60Gb and SR8E's whopping 100Gb HDD, that title may change hand. The only two reason im not confident that these two models will not perform as good as SR1E, to my uninformed understanding, firstly, the point being raised by BeastX, the CMOS sensor with more effective pixels. By cramming more pixels into a particular sensor, sure, you get better resolution, image gets sharper and you get higher definition, but since these pixels are cramped into smaller places, their ability to gather light diminishes, thus resulting in even poorer low light capabilities. The SR1E's own low light capabilities arent that stellar to being with, and I shudder to think how these new sensors will cope , perhaps by bumping up gain, or introducing Sony's own 24/25P Film mode ala HV20. But from the look of the announced specs, these two possibilities arent there, and therefore even the Camcorderinfo.com folks are already foreseeing SR7/SR8's projected poorer performance in low light. Secondly, the SR7/8 loses the most important feature present only on SR1E model, the multifunction ring. The ring doubles as a function selector for manual controls, as well as actual manual focus, just like how a camera does. This is particularly important especially when dealing with HD footage, as thanks to handheld jittery movements of the human hands. Instead, the SR7/8 brings back the Cam Dial , which is although effective, but not as accessible and common sense as the multifunction ring. There is also this nagging inconvinience of having to search around for a mini-HDMI-to-HDMI cable for plugging in the SR7/8 to my Bravia X, since the SR7/8 uses the xvYcc standards that requires HDMI1.3 , which uses this mini HDMI Type C connector end. I have found no store in KL carrying this type of connector.

So, it is either im getting the HDR-SR1E today, or....after i sleep it off in a few minutes, decide to do what i rarely do these days.......i WAIT. I could abscond myself from anything camcorder-wise and wait it out till my Auckland flight to buy the SR7/8 there in New Zealand (it is already available there) in 3 days time, but 3 days.....72hrs can be a very long period to fight with temptations.

---

Added on June 19, 2007, 1:23 amAnd oh, my own setup for all this? It will look like this:-

Sony 1080i HD camcorder connected to three devices, via HDMI to the BRavia X, via USB to the PS3, and via the same USB to an editing PC which i will get later. From the editing PC, housekeeping like drag-n-dropping the footage as well as minimal editing will be done, and then archived into external HDDs and DVDs, until HD-DVDs or Bluray solutions becomes affordable. From the PS3 connected via USB to the camcorder, i would either select important clips straight off the HDD of the camcorder, or pipe in the edited clip from the editing PC , into the 160Gb HDD inside the PS3, for living room viewing and reminiscing when family and relatives drop by. Manouvering around the PS3 is easily done by the Bluetooth Remote already bought. From the HDMI connection of the camcorder to the Bravia X, that would be the adhoc connection, whenever i get back from particular vacations or trips in which i had made footages on, to be viewed instantly on the Bravia X.

Sounds perfect to me.

This post has been edited by stringfellow: Jun 19 2007, 01:23 AM

A pictorial look at the thrree candidates...before the "rejection"


The plain-looking but better performing Canon HV20


The sexy black beast but disappointingly executed JVC GZ-HD7


The current choice in mind, Sony HDR-SR1E


The seducer, the all black, all menacing Sony HDR-SR7E



This post has been edited by stringfellow: Jun 20 2007, 02:01 AM

Oh close....so very close! Manhandled the HDR-SR1E even more today, and it felt just right to come home with me. The Canon store in KLCC still didnt receive their HV20 yet, and i still remember my experience with the HV20 the day before: mediocre/ho hum. Playing around with tapes and recording heads makes me feel like putting up the 'fro and disco lights, and boogie Saturday nights away!

Maybe tomorrow (today) will be the day a decision will be made....Unless someone can convince me otherwise, im dangerously leaning towards the SR1E and HDD, over the HV20 and its tapes.

Appreciate the insights into the virtues and pitfalls of both FORMATS, im well aware of their difficulties and strengths. Let me explain my case further so that you may understand why i chose AVCHD.

I may not even edit, if time is not on my side. The very extent i am going to edit anyway, is the very basic of editing, cutting and pasting. As for other frills and decorations like putting a nice back-end stuff like animated menus, chapters and all, that will come in time, im jumping into this headfirst, without any prior knowledge, other than what little i've learned during my video transcoding days using Virtualdub and TMPGenc. So, my needs of editing is very little, other than the simple need of dragging the video file onto a blank DVD-R and burning it as AVCHD data, and if her family have incorporated a PS3 into their living room, that would be good way of sharing our activities together. FOr both our sides of the family who had yet to migrate to HD , a simple One touch "Disc Burn" to DVD will do the trick ,downsampled and burning it into a recognizable and playable DVD on your run-of-the-mill DVD player. The editing that comes before this, will be very minimal or none at all, like i have described before.

You've pegged me wrong , im not aspiring to be an indie-amateur camera guy, im just doing this to preserve our (me and her) memories together and sharing it with our loved ones. What happens LATER when im hooked into this hobby (which is im sure i will ), i leave it to the future to decide. Then only i would decide if i would invest in a more powerful editing rig than what i have right now. Does that sound logical to anyone?

I simply, at this point in time, CANNOT aspire to become an indie videographer, i neither have the luxury of time, and money (im also pursuing my other indulgences of travelling and extreme activities) to become one. Perhaps, later in life, when things stabilises, that option may present itself. At this moment in time, im just happy i could preserve our cherished memories onto something as simply operated and managed as data on a HDD. I still think dabbling real-time in capturing data off Firewire cables from HDV tapes is a waste of time, and time, is something i dont really have in spades right now.

Perhaps this is a good time to tell that i've already decided and bought the camcorder of my choice, and it is the Sony HDR-SR1E. Was given a free shoulder bag, wide conversion lens, and a RM20 discount voucher towards any digital imaging accessories. Used that for the purchase of the NP-QM91D,the Super Stamina battery (up to 6hrs of recording, matching the camcorder recording volume) along with a travel charger. To carry all this, i've gotten myself the Crumpler 6 Million Dollar Home bag, which fits everything snugly with space to spare, even after i threw in the Cybershot T-100 camera inside along with cables, extra batteries and MS Duo cards. Im thinking of getting a decent tripod, external mic as well as telephoto and a better wide lenses, but i figure, i had better learn the tricks of the trade before venturing any further into the field.As you can see, my choices of equipments in this reflects my preferences of ease of use. Maybe later, once im comfortable with what buttons, dials and focus ring doodads does and start delving into the more advanced aspect of this field, that i would come to more appreciate the need of those extra accessories like lenses, external mics and tripods. Until that stage comes, im happy to be labeled the "point and shoot vacationing family brigade" rather than a "professional videographer enthusiast". That status, will come with time and experience, as well as boatloads of money invested

This post has been edited by stringfellow: Jun 20 2007, 11:19 PM

And also, i have ordered the NEXTO CF OTG Xpress ND-2300 Portable Storage Device with 160Gb HDD to dump all the footage into when storage space becomes restricted on the internal 30Gb HDD on the SR1E. Ordered it from Shashinki.com ( Thank God for that flashing ad on top of the forum header! ), and item shipped and will arrive tomorrow.

So in essence:-

+ +

It's charging right now, the good thing about this battery is that you can check its charge left without having the need to plug it into the camcorder, just press the indicator button and the light-up lights will tell you the remaining charge left.

I was looking for the SuperQuick charger to go with it, but upon calling every other Sony Stores around KL, you need to have it ordered before they stock it. Have to be content with the normal travel charger.

Rollercoaster videos (which in fact, what i did and still doing for a particular coaster enthusiast related discussion board) will definitely not be on the SR1E. That task is relegated to the Sanyo Xacti HD1A, it does that task satisfactorily, looking at the circumstances (rocking and rolling, sideway centrifugal force as well as negative and postitive Gs). Believe me, i've done POV videos on freefall rides (one occasion, the HD1A floats right in front of my face when i left it on my lap during the fall, luckily the strap was still fastened to my wrist), rides with loops and inversions be it sitting or standing (sitting on the Incredible Hulk coaster in Universal Studios Florida Islands of Adventure, and standing while i was on Riddler's Revenge coaster in Six Flags Magic Mountain). You just have to trust the lap bars/seat belts/ shoulder harness to hold you in while you record. Im dont think recording while bungy-jumping is advisable, that's what im about to do tomorrow.

As for their fragility, those are things of the past. The current HDD based camcorders uses the same HDDs found on new generation iPods and beyond. There are motion detectors of course, which shuts down the cam from shooting, but i'd imagine i wont be running down Main Street USA trying to catch a glimpse of Snow White in the Pumpkin carriage during the parade. All it takes is lilke what you said, a properly planned staked out shooting spot, and defending it with your life.

That point is moot though, it didnt even cross my mind when considering between the two recording formats. I've read cases of HDV tapes dirtying recording heads and having the need to clean them up as early as 2 hours after recording, read the reports from Camcorderinfo.com and SonyHDVinfo.com discussion boards. These tapes arent perfect either. Apparently, changing tapes between brands would make the recording track on the head, get dirty easily since some of these tapes uses either dry-based lubricants and wet-based ones. Im not fond of revisiting the days where i had to slot in cleaning head cassette tapes of the VHS days. Sorry.

There are good discussional threads on these discussion boards i've mentioned regarding the merits and apparent undercurrent of anti-HDD movement regarding the changing state of recording formats on camcorders. The very same thing that happened when photographers who are reluctant to move from rolls of film to solid state storage devices like memory cards, early Microdrives (which are by the way, miniaturized HDDs) and such, is happening right now between HDV tapes stalwarts and HDD crowd. The way i read from these discussion threads, and the experiences from these seasoned pros, both formats, be it HDV tapes or HDDs, have their own weaknesses that would incur loss of data based on their specific circumstances. I'd like to think that if you do take the necessary precautions when recording, you can avoid these inherent dangers, whether you're taping on HDV tapes or recording on HDDs. Like you said, it's a matter of planning.

Worse come to worse, i can still sell off the Sanyo Xacti HD1A and top up a little bit more to get the HV20. Im curious what's the excitement of taping on HDVs and the workflow process is all about that apparently made the general consensus reluctant to move to HDD. But then again, the HD1A is perfect for stealth recording (im not talking underskirting here! ) or taping discretely under the watchful public eye. anything larger , such as the present normal sized camcorders would definitely identify yourself as a possible candidate for breach of privacy. The HD1A , in my palm, is practically invisible, which is how i manage to record some of the more restrictive area within a tight security area, such as theme park attractions and newly launched shows.

This post has been edited by stringfellow: Jun 21 2007, 03:29 AM

Which is what i have reiterated before since my first post. I dont doubt the quality of HV20 when it comes to its PQ, but im not too fond of rewinding and realtime capturing things via firewire before you can even talk about editing. The tape medium does not strike my fancy either.

Low light, was once my consideration when it comes to the camcorder of my choice, but i later come to terms with it, thinking that i would be recording much of my stuff in broad daylight, not in dimly lit situations, so that point was moot. The 24/25p mode is usable only if you slow pan the HV20, with a steady tripod, which in my case would not be of much use, since i would be recording most of my footage while on foot with the camcorder in my hand. Speaking of which, ergonomics would factor in big in my books, and despite having largish hands, the HV20 is still uncomfortable. The SR1E, HC7 or even the SR7E (just got back from Auckland, and managed to playtested this latest model) are second nature when it comes to hand-camcorder ergonomics.

Weighing those is, made me chose SR1E. Other users may, and will have different priorities when it comes to choosing their camcorders. Trust me when i say that i've scoured discussion boards, and webpages having the slightest hint of comparisons between current camcorder models, but until you have hands-on experience with them, you wont get the big picture. Camcorderinfo.com was my reference at one time, but i've grown to trust my own judgement once these models are in my hands.