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> Atheists Agnostics Assemble, Ask and your answer will be served

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puchongite
post Aug 3 2018, 10:52 PM

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QUOTE(Spear2 @ Aug 3 2018, 09:39 PM)
I will start with this leftover from a similar thread that was closed unexpectedly, maybe this is the reason why it was closed, someone complaint, so it must be censored ... So here goes nothing.

In fact waging wars clearly means Islam is not a peaceful religion. The act to dominate the world also clearly means Islam is not a peaceful religion. The same goes to Islam expansion and the jihad to achieve this, either you breed to expand or you wage war and dominate to expand, and from your post it is is likely to be both.
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To continue with the debate, I would like to present the points which are commonly brought up by Muslims, in the face of the accusation that "Islam is not a religion of peace".

1. Not every Muslim is an extremist. In fact most Muslims we never see them going out to bomb others. There are black sheep in every grouping, why people take the minority as the representation of Islam ?

2. Even Christian apologist David Wood admits that Christianity was once upon a time not a religion of peace. And even in Buddhism we find certain monks had performed violence. Perhaps there is very little meaning to obtaining a recognition as a religion of peace ? Why people seem to be a lot more critical about Islam ?

3. Islam followers are taught the idea of retaliation when needed. When a violent act is performed by a Muslim, with a little mental acrobatics, it can be passed off as a form of justifiable retaliation or even a self defence. And hence for example, anybody who leaves Islam can be perceived as trying to sabotage Islam. And hence it becomes justifiable to kill the apostates. And hence the 911 and paris terrorist attacks could all be passed of to fit the teaching of Islam. Is it reasonable to expect people to just receive oppression without doing anything ?

The assertion that "Islam is not a religion of peace" will probably require further elaboration.

What exactly people mean when they say Islam is not a religion of peace ?
puchongite
post Aug 4 2018, 11:23 AM

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QUOTE(Simply_Ed @ Aug 4 2018, 10:16 AM)
I consider myself to be an agnostic. Just a question that I’ve been pondering.

If there is no life after death, what is the purpose of our lives on earth and how do you convince yourself that whatever you’re doing has meaning ?

Consider that we are infinitesimally small compared to the size of the universe, and our life spans are negligeble against the life span of the universe. And how human race never existed before “recently” and potentially cease to exist in the future (an assumption).
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What is the purpose of life ?

People often ask this question. Strictly speaking this is not the actual question people wanted to ask. It is more like the person wanted to ask: what is the most meaningful purpose of life for me ? In other words, he has noticed the purposes of life which he has been having have lost their meaning. He has found them not meaningful enough anymore.

For me the purpose of life as assigned by God ( if there is one ), is not meaningful enough. I don't find the promises in the heaven real and even if they are real, I don't find them meaningful. Why kind of meaning is that we have to live in our present life submitting like slaves to the God (Islamic concept). Similarly the Christian purpose of life is this :-

QUOTE
According to the Bible, our purpose, the reason we are here, is for God's glory.  In other words, our purpose is to praise God, worship him, to proclaim his greatness, and to accomplish his will.  This is what glorifies him.....
Seems both Islam and Christian are similar in the assertion of meaning in life.

Wow if this is really the purpose of life, can you imagine how degrading it is ? But there are plenty of theists will find this very meaningful for them.

That relationship reminds me of a documentary which show a male snake will "submit" itself as the food for the female snake, after having sex with the female, fulfilling the need to propagate the species. That's the purpose of life for the male snake. Its "choice" !!!

And so one should just look at his own self, to see what one is best at doing, and do it right. And make sure you could find it meaningful for your own self. You choose it. Different people find different meaning of life. If you could do big or small things which please you and useful to the society, I guess most people will find them meaningful enough.

This post has been edited by puchongite: Aug 4 2018, 11:39 AM
puchongite
post Aug 4 2018, 12:17 PM

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QUOTE(Lionel90 @ Aug 4 2018, 11:42 AM)
The answer from a deist:
Our life on earth should be about making the world a better place, even if it's just by 0.00001%. Whatever you do would definitely has their meaning, see butterfly effect. For dramatization, see how 'alive' Einstein still is today.

I believe there is a God, but not one who care about how you wash your ass or if you pray to him. After all, if he needs our prayers that much, we should be the God to him. If he is kind enough to really grant us lives, he can't care enough whether or not you believe in him. If he cares that much, I don't really think he is as kind as glorified. Hence, I'm a deist. laugh.gif
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The purpose of life is not a fact seeking question. It cannot be answered as a scientific evaluation.

There is no such thing called something MUST be the purpose of life and must be true.

Purpose of life is a preference. It is about what is your preference and what is most meaningful to you.

But constraint by physical reality, preference may not be always achievable. When such thing happens, when ideal is not achievable, people lost their meaning in life and start to question the purpose of their existence. For example when people are poor, cannot find enough money to buy food to feed themselves, then they start asking the purpose of the suffering/existence.

And under such circumstances, a stubborn belief that every exists for purpose, give them faith to sustain and to hang on.
puchongite
post Aug 4 2018, 09:19 PM

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QUOTE(rzam @ Aug 4 2018, 09:00 PM)
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

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The guy with cap is spitting so much nonsense.

But in this instance, he seems to on the upper hand of the debate, as his opponent seems to be lost when swamped by those weird questions - those questions which he has never be bothered unless he is a frequent debater.

But winning a debate has nothing to do with the truth.

The purpose of life as designated by God, for me, is like the slave's purpose in life is for the master ( read my earlier posts on purpose of life ).

Theists love such purpose in life but I find it utterly degrading.

Pretty sure people who like to control your mind, do not like the idea that you choose your purpose in life. They are only interested to impose a purpose of life onto you.

This post has been edited by puchongite: Aug 4 2018, 09:40 PM
puchongite
post Aug 5 2018, 07:32 AM

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QUOTE(ramz @ Aug 5 2018, 12:02 AM)
Look who is talking? Why you not answering my arguments? You are the one who is avoiding my debate. You are the case that you can't find
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rzam is not here for a debate or discussion. He is here to selectively quote certain videos or texts to make himself feel good.

He is just like his master Zakir Naik, who claims to be a great debater, but have never really debated with people who want to debate with him.

And he will never be too shy to claim victory of the debates he has with a few inexperience debaters.



David Wood says Zakir Naik is a joke. So are all the rest of Islam apologists who use the same debate techniques. They do things not to get to the truth, but to make own self feel good.

This post has been edited by puchongite: Aug 5 2018, 07:32 AM
puchongite
post Aug 5 2018, 08:51 AM

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QUOTE(ramz @ Aug 5 2018, 08:21 AM)
You remember SpikeMarlene? where is he now?
I remember when i was still muslim, i gave up talking to anybody, coz no muslim wants to understand my problem. Even my spouse didn't want to understand my problem then (but now he reasons better than me about atheism sometimes). i just did my own research and concluded. Spikemarlene said something that triggered an avalance of thoughts. i remember u contributed to some of the discussions then. thank you for opening things up, puchongite.
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SparkMarlene is spear2. You should have noticed that based on the style. smile.gif

This post has been edited by puchongite: Aug 5 2018, 08:55 AM
puchongite
post Aug 5 2018, 03:18 PM

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QUOTE(khairul88hazwan @ Aug 5 2018, 01:47 PM)
Islam will always prevail... Islam is destined to be the Greatest.... through peace or war Islam will rise... atheist is just tiny and insignificant to the rise of Islam ...

https://www.facebook.com/KJVids/videos/1761845367203077/
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Today we have Christian being the biggest religion but is it that all Christians can be united to achieve world dominance ? It's obviously NOT !

We have now 43000 denominations of Christian, and if we go down to the details, the denominations are as divided as different religions. We can have a believer of non trinity in this RWI forum accusing the believers of trinity as believing in the wrong God and God will not let the wrong believers go easily, and hence entering the hell is implied.

Similarly we have many sects of Islam claiming each other fake. And the God being low EQ is particular enough to send the fake believers to hell.

And creating more and more variants and differences is a proven law of nature. That's why human are having more and more different traits and features. That's why more and more religions and sects of religions are created.

Even in a little country like Malaysia, we have majority of Malays sunnis. Are the Malays having the same religious and political preference ? The answer is no. Not many Malays can be excited by your world domination agenda.

This post has been edited by puchongite: Aug 5 2018, 03:27 PM
puchongite
post Aug 6 2018, 08:52 PM

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Why theists want to match their scriptures with science ?

If the scriptures match well with science, then the theists will be convinced that the scriptures are true ?

So this is saying science is the reference for truth ?

If the scriptures don't match well with science, will the theists then think the scriptures are false ?
puchongite
post Aug 7 2018, 08:29 AM

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QUOTE(rzam @ Aug 7 2018, 08:02 AM)
can science proof beliefs, gravity, or your ancestor?
can science proof the Creator?


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You have made two big mistakes in the questions you asked above.

1. You don't understand the basic of burden of proof. The creator and what not are not claims made by science and so science does not carry the burden of proof.

2. Gravity and ancestor are claimed by science under the respective theories. If you consider gravity is unproven, it means your understanding of the theory of gravity does not meet the basics.
puchongite
post Aug 7 2018, 09:33 AM

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QUOTE(jovigrunge @ Aug 7 2018, 09:27 AM)
Why are the main thread closed or censored? This is "transparent" Pakatan era or still "hide everything" BN era?  confused.gif
And also the thread on the syariah law ( which is more about the concept of punishment ) has completely vanished from the real world.

No reasons were given for both of that.

Talking about new Malaysia.


puchongite
post Aug 7 2018, 09:57 AM

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QUOTE(ramz @ Aug 7 2018, 09:53 AM)
Yes. Then syariah law thread is downtown rwi! It is affecting me ATM. What the fuck is wrong with lowyat moderators?
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I don't expect the lowyat moderators to be as good as Nga Kor Ming, but they should not behave like Pandikar Amin.

This post has been edited by puchongite: Aug 7 2018, 09:57 AM
puchongite
post Aug 7 2018, 10:02 AM

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QUOTE(jovigrunge @ Aug 7 2018, 10:00 AM)
Lol......mods are politicians too?
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Moderators' job is similar to the job of a dewan speaker lar. wink.gif
puchongite
post Aug 7 2018, 11:13 AM

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QUOTE(Mea Culpa @ Aug 7 2018, 10:42 AM)
"Soul" as to what the scientists claim is our consciousness, nothing mentioned about another dimension or "realm".

The claim is "quantum information" = Consciousness. You cannot delete the "quantum information" by deleting the brain. Can you follow?... so the reversal can also be true, the quantum information is already existing before being "born" (quantum entanglement) into a conscious being.

According to M-Theory the universe has 11 dimensions. In bosonic string theory, spacetime is 26-dimensional.
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Consciousness is still a vague word, even scientists don't agree among themselves what is consciousness.

As long as there is a feedback, any system will exhibit some kind of consciousness. Eg plants can have consciousness, because plants have various senses which provide feedback to alter the behaviour of the plant. Eg, plant can bend itself to grow towards light. Then the plant is thought to have consciousness.

Brain is not even a must for consciousness.

However, with respect to human, consciousness seems to be defined to be tied to the brain.

Nevertheless, science's idea of consciousness is always internal to the organism. It is never external. When the organism dies, when all senses die, and the processing capability of the senses also die, then the consciousness should vanish together.

The religions idea of consciousness or soul, is quite different. It is an almost independent entity from the physical body. For me, it's crap. LOL.

This post has been edited by puchongite: Aug 7 2018, 11:16 AM
puchongite
post Aug 7 2018, 11:25 AM

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QUOTE(Mea Culpa @ Aug 7 2018, 11:24 AM)
No its not.

Define the conscious beholder.

Feedback system is so much complex on computerised robotics  systems and AI programs even more so than human brain. Can we say they are conscious? Nope.
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Why not ? Please justify.

What is stopping it to be defined as different types of consciousness ?


puchongite
post Aug 7 2018, 11:42 AM

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QUOTE(Mea Culpa @ Aug 7 2018, 11:36 AM)
We now IT exist because we ARE conscious.

The different types of consciousness also referring to the same thing, its the observation of the said observer.

Feedback system is a poor analogy, it can be proven false by the examples provided.
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You have replied but for me, you have said nothing additional.

My claim remains: consciousness exists because there are senses which provides feedback, and also the processing to the feedback which alters the behaviour of the system.

Perhaps the observed difference between an AI system's consciousness and the human consciousness is "predictability". AI system are program to consistently deliver the same predictability. Human is different. It's not entirely consistent. It's lack of 100% predictability is obvious.

And also obviously AI system also do not have much senses and processing related to emotions.
puchongite
post Aug 7 2018, 11:57 AM

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QUOTE(Mea Culpa @ Aug 7 2018, 11:53 AM)
AI system can be developed with learning ability, which will improved overtime so its predictability is not fixed.
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All the more it illustrates that these things can be made increasingly closer to the behaviour of human consciousness.
puchongite
post Aug 7 2018, 12:20 PM

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QUOTE(Mea Culpa @ Aug 7 2018, 12:09 PM)
So whats the difference between a computer AI and a consciousness?

AI Computer - extremely complex programming.

Consciousness - SIMPLIFICATION of a complex process. When you move your hand, you do not need to know which muscles to move,nope.. all is automated by subconscious and unconscious mind.

Have a look at The Interface Theory. Consciousness is expressed mathematically, which arrivesto the same quantum equation.
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I have no idea about The Interface Theory. And I also do not think there is even consensus in the definition of consciousness now. Can The Interface Theory mathematically represent plant consciousness ?

Put it simply, complexity in programming is a matter of "encapsulation". Your above comparison, you are comparing things at bolts and nuts level. Which isn't necessary. When you use siri in your iPhone, do you have to know how it is programmed ?

I have never claimed the AI intelligence can be identical with human intelligence. But nevertheless, as long as there are feedback, there are processing to the feedback, there are alteration of the output, to me, they have met the essential requirements of consciousness.

This post has been edited by puchongite: Aug 7 2018, 12:21 PM
puchongite
post Aug 7 2018, 12:32 PM

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QUOTE(Mea Culpa @ Aug 7 2018, 12:26 PM)
By that logic, Sims human can be made conscious right, as long as they met the requirement of the feedback system.

So a creator God is not impossible at all right? Haha
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Sims human = ?

What has the top paragraph to do with the bottom paragraph ?
puchongite
post Aug 7 2018, 12:49 PM

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QUOTE(Mea Culpa @ Aug 7 2018, 12:36 PM)
Sims is a computer game, simulates humans social behaviours. You as a player God.

Imagine if they become conscious.
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You have implied a definition of "conscious". That's why it becomes amazing to you, when something becomes conscious. Your consciousness is by definition the level of consciousness exhibits in a full blown sensible, educated, intelligent human.

But if you have different definition of consciousness, what is the big deal ? The big deals is in the level of consciousness.

Are you amazed by the consciousness demonstrated in an air-cond ? It "knows" how to maintain the temperature at your setting.

This post has been edited by puchongite: Aug 7 2018, 12:49 PM
puchongite
post Aug 7 2018, 04:52 PM

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QUOTE(Mea Culpa @ Aug 7 2018, 04:39 PM)
Its in the article. And you missed the "  ".

Some might also want to claim that the quantum information as "karma" that initiate transmigration of consciousness.
Just fill in the blanks whatever fits. Like i said its just a speculation claim.
Just replace  the God with "creator" .Take the program analogy, say the characters in the Game is conscious, but they wont be able to touch or see the electronic circuits nor the player God that controls the Game. Those characters are merely AI in the form of programming. Different form or level of existence. Here the humans are the creator who is in control of the conscious software AI.
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Your logic is hard to follow. Game creation and human creation jumbled together.

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