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> Atheists Agnostics Assemble, Ask and your answer will be served

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Lionel90
post Aug 4 2018, 11:42 AM

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QUOTE(Simply_Ed @ Aug 4 2018, 10:16 AM)
I consider myself to be an agnostic. Just a question that I’ve been pondering.

If there is no life after death, what is the purpose of our lives on earth and how do you convince yourself that whatever you’re doing has meaning ?

Consider that we are infinitesimally small compared to the size of the universe, and our life spans are negligeble against the life span of the universe. And how human race never existed before “recently” and potentially cease to exist in the future (an assumption).
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The answer from a deist:
Our life on earth should be about making the world a better place, even if it's just by 0.00001%. Whatever you do would definitely has their meaning, see butterfly effect. For dramatization, see how 'alive' Einstein still is today.

I believe there is a God, but not one who care about how you wash your ass or if you pray to him. After all, if he needs our prayers that much, we should be the God to him. If he is kind enough to really grant us lives, he can't care enough whether or not you believe in him. If he cares that much, I don't really think he is as kind as glorified. Hence, I'm a deist. laugh.gif
Lionel90
post Aug 6 2018, 11:46 AM

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QUOTE(khairul88hazwan @ Aug 3 2018, 03:58 PM)
Bodoh... Isis is just propaganda to scared the west....

Last time when US wants to invade Iraq they said got weapon of mass dectruction?? Where is the weapon of mass destruction now?
Instead they bringing havoq to Iraq and steal their oil resources...

Wake up la bro... The media is 99% Control by the Jews and Jews Illuminatti like Ramz and Spear are enemy of Islam....

I dont know how atheist can believe there is no God.... its like i tell you a nation is having no leader yet it is peaceful and progressing... its impossible the world this large and uniform doesnot has its creator....

Tell me which Nation dont have leader and prosper??
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QUOTE(Lionel90 @ Aug 3 2018, 04:31 PM)
Bodoh, a west propaganda or not, who needs ISIS to paint Islam a bad picture when you here are doing that voluntarily, threatening to harm others and all that? Or are you also a west propaganda?

If you wanna say that the atheists are wrong, then simple, show them that there is God. Otherwise all these are just endless discussions which the atheists have upper hand as there are nothing that shows God's presence except for a new books. Manmade books.

And you know what you are saying by that? "Because we don't know how everything begins, there must be a God." Being a deist (pls look up the definition), I feel insulted by your intelligence, or lack of. Let me rub some salt into your wound, imagine it's a murder case, you are saying, because the accused is there, holding the knife that appears to be the weapon at the crime scene, he is the murderer. End of, no investigation needed.

Let's not ask question to which the answer won't be to your liking - because the answer is randomness, which you are gonna laugh at, after all "which Nation dont have leader and prosper??" right? While forgetting one is about administration, well the other, I don't know what's it about.
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Believe you owe me a reply? Shall we?
Lionel90
post Aug 9 2018, 09:54 AM

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QUOTE(khairul88hazwan @ Aug 9 2018, 08:29 AM)
First to counter your assumption is you must know that God is the Greatest....

He is the greatest of  all... so he can do whatever he wants... who are you to dictate what God wants  ? We are weak... we face mortality while God is everlasting...

So you must search what God wants us to do... In Koran God clearly said that our creation is to worship him and care taker of this earth...  In Islam God ask us to acknowledge his existence, do prayers, fasting, zakat and perform Haj as pillars of our faith.

Then we are required to be kind , help the needy, orphans and to respect our parents...

If you look at history closely Islam is not all about wars... they help Britain empire from Spanish invasion...

https://www.facebook.com/KJVids/videos/1768392576548356/
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Basically all your argument is: God is greatest, so even if He knows right at the start whether someone would fail or pass, and even if He do nothing should He know that you would eventually fail, you still have to pretend that this so called 'test' is fair, when the outcome is already foreseen and serves no purpose in the eyes of God, since he already knows it? This is like a teacher, who already knows his students would fail, but did not even try to provide more assistance to the students. Sure enough, the students fail, to add insult to injury, the teacher send them away to wash the toilets. Oddly enough, the students still respect and love the teacher for the 'love' he has shown them. You are the student right here.

If God can do whatever he wants, it means what you do won't matter. If he likes it, he lets you into heaven (and the 72 virgins drool.gif ); if he doesn't, you do good or not, he sends you to hell.
Lionel90
post Aug 9 2018, 09:57 AM

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QUOTE(khairul88hazwan @ Aug 9 2018, 09:48 AM)
What is so not logic God send relevation to a chosen human which is Muhammad?
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Because anyone can make that claim? You have to ask? Like seriously? doh.gif

If I tell you God sends me to tell all human being that He actually doesn't give a f about what you do, there is no heaven for weaklings like us anyway, would you believe me? Or would you call me crazy? Now why would you trust Muhammad but wouldn't trust me?

This post has been edited by Lionel90: Aug 9 2018, 09:59 AM
Lionel90
post Aug 9 2018, 10:19 AM

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QUOTE(khairul88hazwan @ Aug 9 2018, 10:07 AM)
Make some scripture like Koran if you think it is not Gods Words... many people has claims to be prophet after Mohd dies... do they succeed?
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You have not answered my question at all.

QUOTE(Lionel90 @ Aug 9 2018, 09:57 AM)
If I tell you God sends me to tell all human being that He actually doesn't give a f about what you do, there is no heaven for weaklings like us anyway, would you believe me? Or would you call me crazy? Now why would you trust Muhammad but wouldn't trust me?
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What's so special about Quran that you think it's God words then? Why do those prophet wannabe fail?

This post has been edited by Lionel90: Aug 9 2018, 10:20 AM
Lionel90
post Aug 9 2018, 05:51 PM

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QUOTE(rzam @ Aug 9 2018, 05:22 PM)
You could say that an animal has free will … as long as it continues to be that animal. So in the case of an elephant, the animal’s free will is defined as “being an elephant.” It’s not allowed to be or pretend to be anything else, and it must be this thing immediately on birth.

Watching the birth of animals is a great learning experience. It’s as if the animal is expected to not waste any time, start being what you are supposed to be almost immediately. In the case of an elephant, mother elephant even seems to gently kick the newborn, telling it “hurry up and be an elephant.” Within minutes the calf is up and walking and “being an elephant.”

Now compare this to what we might call “being a human.” The human baby is cut all sorts of slack! Why, it spends most of its first weeks of life sleeping. Then maybe it gets around to observing, to crawling, to doing things we might define as “human like.” But it takes its sweet time. Walking, running, speaking, they are according to some leisurely time table the elephant knows not. And there’s lots of pretending and mugging involved with the human, too. They are allowed to make odd, non-human faces and sounds, to even pretend to be other animals: tigers, lions, monkeys, or just act goofy!

None of these gifts of free will is given to animals. Animals, almost from the moment of birth, must start to be what they are meant to be! No fooling around, no taking your time.

That luxury is reserved for the humans.
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You know that these are just the differences between human and those animals as species right?
All primates also have the same nature, so they have 'free will' (according to your own definition) too? They are so similar to human, but of course, since they are of the same ancestor of human. You believe in theory of evolution right? laugh.gif
Lionel90
post Aug 9 2018, 07:06 PM

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QUOTE(flyingmalayman @ Aug 9 2018, 06:33 PM)
It is funny to think that sometime science use the same method to prove the existence of something as well e.g

Muslim: You cannot observe God per se (cannot see) but you can see His action and creation. Hence God exist

Science: You cannot observe electron per se( cannot see electron) but u can observe the effect of electron (electricity etc). Hence electron exist.

Lol
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Firstly, like BeastX said, if you can quantify and measure it, then it exists. You can do that for both the existence and effect of electron, even if you can't see it. Same for oxygen and all the gases.

Secondly, you can't see God's actions and creations, you only THINK it's his actions and creations.

Not even close.
Lionel90
post Aug 10 2018, 09:43 AM

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QUOTE(rzam @ Aug 10 2018, 08:32 AM)
why do people here cannot apprehend simple analogy?
instead focusing on the issue of free will,they go to another topic?
really lol at the "complexity" questions acting as if it were "intellectual"
laugh.gif

firstly,what is your definition about free-will?

"baby behaving that way is not just animal instinct"
i dont have problem with that
but what does it got to do with free will?
can a human choose what he wants to eat?
eg: today i want to be a vegetarian,next month i want to go on gluten-free diet,
i want to visit my friend in africa,so will build a plane so i can go faster..whatever

according to you,an elephant can have free will, so an elephant can become carnivores now?
this elephant,he "desire" to go visit in the north pool for a month..
so can the elephant prepares himself with all the necessity clothings, jackets, rations foods, etc
can that elephant do that?can any animal do that?

come share with us which animal species have free will according to your understanding

p/s: i honestly didnt know "free-will" can trigger so much people lol
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You wanna have sex before marriage, you cannot, or you go to hell.
You wanna drink alcohol, you cannot, or you go to hell.
You wanna try pork someday, you cannot, or you go to hell.
You lazy to pray and wanna skip, you cannot, or you go to hell.
You are rich, but find it meaningless to go for Haji, you cannot, or you go to hell.
You find Islam not the true religion, you wanna leave, you cannot, or you go to hell.
The list goes on, and you think you have free will when just about everything you do or don't dictated by an imaginary being? Even little ants have more free will than you.

Sorry la if I sound triggered, because your stupidity does trigger me.
Lionel90
post Aug 10 2018, 10:41 AM

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QUOTE(flyingmalayman @ Aug 10 2018, 09:54 AM)
Yes like I said observe electron, measuring and applying it in our life but then still you cannot see electron, and hell science even invent quantum THEORY, a new field to explain about electron but even then still cannot see electron and that they even used statistic to say the PROBABILITY of electron to sit in atom, but never shown that eletron is exactly there, it is just that u can never disprove the electron since there are no better theory to explain the observation. It is a paradigm in science to say that all of those effect observed now is caused by electron, and they use quantum THEORY to explain it. Same like many years ago when people think mass and energy are separate and hence explain every phenomena using it, but when Einstein came and say mass and energy is related, suddenly the paradigm shifted and every explanation change.

So the same like religion when everything that exist cannot disprove the existence of god, and is used to explain the existence of god.

P/s: u can see oxygen and gases because they have proton and neutron and u can see this directly. But the fact that u said oxygen and gases cannot be seen shows that u r really not having enough knowledge/dont work in this field and hence why u cannot understand my joke in the first place
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It's when a deduction cannot be disproved then it's accepted, in science (IIRC). Can the same be said about God? Can you back up claim that God exists or it's merely that you think something points to his existence?

QUOTE
u can see oxygen and gases because they have proton and neutron and u can see this directly

Oh you can? Maybe I need to change specs then. Good for you though.
Lionel90
post Aug 10 2018, 01:32 PM

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QUOTE(rzam @ Aug 10 2018, 11:14 AM)
1) say you grow old and live alone,and your kids,well they have a family living far away
then you die..you rely on your family members to take care of your corpse right?
so the question is, how do you trust them to take care of your dead body?
how can you belief in them? can science proof it so that other people can have evidence about your trust onto your kids?

2) say that your family does take care and bury you properly,cased close..
but say that your family doesnt care about proper burial..
they live so far far away..and could care less about your corpse bcoz they are buzy with their life at the moment
they have similar thinking like you do,they dont care..
you died on your own life,you should take care of yourself right? why should your corpse be a burden in you kids life right?

3) worst case,your kids could just let you rot alone in the house right?
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When you are dead, you are dead, even if you are gonna live forever after that. Whatever they do to your corpse, nothing you can do about it. They wanna troll you and bury you in a Christian cemetery, nothing you can do to stop them. Why are you worried about your physical form that's gonna rot away when you are dead? I thought you are gonna live forever with 72 virgins after that? Or God would punish for failing to be buried in the proper place with the proper ritual, even if it's no fault of your own?

Eh, I thought you were gonna talk about free will? Better stick to that as you sounded less stupid on that topic, which quite says something about the stupidity you have shown on this burial issue.
Lionel90
post Aug 14 2018, 02:54 PM

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QUOTE(khairul88hazwan @ Aug 14 2018, 12:09 PM)
Yes i agree that Atheist comes from Monkey... while the theist they are descendant of Adam and Eve...
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Actually you know what, it's entirely possible that you are descendant of Adam & Eve. That's one of the explanations of why are you so retarded. Products of incest afterall...

This post has been edited by Lionel90: Aug 14 2018, 02:55 PM
Lionel90
post Aug 15 2018, 10:30 AM

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QUOTE(BeastX @ Aug 15 2018, 10:22 AM)
More accurately "narrative".... "theory" give too much precedence, cheapens the meaning of theory...
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Maybe I should fix that, cause he doesn't look like the sort who could differentiate a layman's "theory" from "scientific theory".
Lionel90
post Aug 15 2018, 05:15 PM

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QUOTE(Spear2 @ Aug 15 2018, 05:00 PM)
If you are honest and serious in learning, then I can tell you. If your aim is to insult then i will jest with you. Your choice.
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You are gonna break it to him that it could be traced back to fish?!?! I'm sure that gonna his "I'm different from all those animals, I'm a proud product of multiple generations of incest" ego won't be able to take it and he would prefer to live in denial forever.
Lionel90
post Aug 20 2018, 01:41 PM

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QUOTE(khairul88hazwan @ Aug 20 2018, 01:02 PM)
SI TUKANG GUNTING

Seorang laki-laki bernama Manan datang ke sebuah salon untuk memotong rambut dan janggutnya. Dia pun memulai sedikit perbualan yang hangat dengan tukang gunting yang melayaninya. Berbagai macam topik dibincangkan, hingga akhirnya Tuhan jadi subjek perbualan.

Tukang Gunting: "Encik, saya ini tidak percaya kalau Tuhan itu ada seperti yang encik katakan tadi."

Mendengar ungkapan itu, Manan terkejut dan bertanya, "Mengapa anda berkata demikian?"

"Mudah saja, cuba encik menjengok ke luar tingkap itu dan sedarlah bahwa Tuhan itu memang tidak ada. Tolong jelaskan pada saya, jika Tuhan itu ada, mengapa banyak orang yang sakit? Mengapa banyak anak yang terbiar? Jika Tuhan itu ada, tentu tidak ada sakit dan penderitaan. Tuhan apa yang mengizinkan semua itu terjadi..." ungkap si tukang gunting dengan nada yang tinggi dan angkuh.

Manan pun berpikir tentang apa yang baru saja dikatakan oleh tukang gunting. Namun, ia sama sekali tidak memberi respon atau jawapan agar perbincangan tersebut tidak menjadi hangat lagi.

Ketika tukang gunting selesai melakukan pekerjaannya, Manan pun berjalan keluar dari kedai tersebut. Baru beberapa langkah, dia bertembung dengan seorang laki-laki berambut panjang dan janggutnya pun lebat. Sepertinya ia sudah lama tidak pergi ke kedai gunting rambut dan itu membuatkannya terlihat tidak kemas.

Manan kembali masuk ke dalam kedai dan kemudian berkata kepada tukang gunting, "Tukang gunting itu sebenarnya tidak ada sepertimana yang anda kata bahawa Tuhan itu tidak ada!..."

Si tukang gunting pun terkejut dengan perkataan Manan tersebut.

"Bagaimana mungkin mereka tidak ada, buktinya adalah saya. Saya ada di sini dan saya adalah seorang tukang gunting" sanggahnya si tukang gunting.

Manan kembali berkata tegas, "Tidak, mereka tidak ada. kalau mereka ada, tidak mungkin ada orang yang berambut panjang dan berjanggut lebat. Contohnya lelaki di luar itu."

"Ah, anda merepek saja...Tukang gunting selalu ada di mana-mana. Yang terjadi pada lelaki itu adalah bahwa dia tidak mau datang ke kedai saya untuk di gunting rambut dan bercukur." jawabnya tenang sambil tersenyum.

Tegas Manan" "Tepat sekali! Itulah jawapannyanya untuk soalan anda kepada saya tadi. Tuhan itu memang ada. Yang terjadi pada umat manusia itu adalah kerana mereka tidak mau datang mencari dan menemui-Nya. Itulah sebabnya mengapa begitu banyak penderitaan di seluruh dunia ini...."

Mendengar jawapan dari Manan tersebut menyebabkan si tukang gunting diam membisu tidak terkata.
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Aduh, when it suits you, "God is greatest and need not be understood". When it doesn't suit you, a comparison with barber is drawn and "God is waiting for you to find him".

You know, being consistent and not playing God would put your likes in better light.
Lionel90
post Aug 21 2018, 09:27 AM

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QUOTE(khairul88hazwan @ Aug 21 2018, 08:39 AM)
Wikipedia is full of flaws, quoted from quora. You aren't the brightest light in the room, are you? laugh.gif

This post has been edited by Lionel90: Aug 21 2018, 09:29 AM
Lionel90
post Nov 16 2018, 03:30 PM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Nov 12 2018, 04:35 PM)
It's hard to find a believer who is willing to do mature discussion about his belief.

The latest trend is this: if you have a different view from mine, then our discussion cannot proceed.

I got that several times already.
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I very much prefer that over someone who insists that his belief is the truth. Belief in this sense shall remain belief as there is absolutely no way one can prove or disprove the non-falsifiable claims.

But for the purpose of cultivating critical thinking, when one insists his belief is the truth I would take up the opposing view lol.
Lionel90
post Mar 27 2019, 04:38 PM

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QUOTE(Chrono-Trigger @ Mar 27 2019, 03:06 PM)
2. I am asking you, what you and your belief of atheism can offer to the world , in so dire need of consolation when it comes to real life issue such as dealing with death, sadness, despair, aging, sickness?
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Like cold, hard, bitter truth rather than comforting 'lies'? Or solution better than prayer?

Death - "he/she may be gone but he/she lives on forever in our memories" is a good replacement for "he/she is safe in the arms of angels" (or whatever believers say) because if you think about it, he/she may have gone to hell!
Sadness/ Despair - actively looking for the root and solve it rather than hoping that the prayer would be answered and the problem(s) magically solved
Aging - I don't know why one needs consolation about aging, or indeed how religion helps with aging lol?
Sickness - "follow the advice of doctor, you would get well soon" anytime over anything religious

Now those consolations or solutions do not have to be mutually exclusive, but if you think only religion can be of consolation to those in dire need of it maybe you need to rethink your strategy when it comes to such scenario. After all, I'm sure you are aware that problems never go away until they are solved.

This post has been edited by Lionel90: Mar 27 2019, 04:39 PM
Lionel90
post Mar 28 2019, 01:22 PM

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user posted image
Psalm 14:1 - The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds; there is none who does good.

There are still theists who think atheist cannot do anything good in this age eh? But I actually identify myself as a deist or free-thinker...

A bit rich coming from the guy who sent PM like this to me over a disagreement unrelated to religion:
user posted image

Tag him for "discussion" if you want but be warned it would turn into a flaming game at the end. I have blocked him anyway.
Lionel90
post Apr 1 2019, 10:20 AM

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QUOTE(xyroth @ Mar 31 2019, 10:04 PM)
QUOTE
But unsurprisingly, there is a rather significant caveat to that claim. In fact, what the researchers in question say they have actually proven is a theorem put forward by renowned Austrian mathematician Kurt Gödel -- and the real news isn't about a Supreme Being, but rather what can now be achieved in scientific fields using superior technology.


QUOTE(xyroth @ Mar 31 2019, 10:21 PM)
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/...godels-theorem/

Imagine at trillion times from now which when based on science discovery, humans has most not all the answer of the universe.....and based on godel theorem, can you guest what are the only unsolved mystery or question that cannot be answered?
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Yes, the rest of the article that I never get to read.
Lionel90
post Apr 9 2019, 01:55 PM

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QUOTE(will4848 @ Apr 9 2019, 01:15 PM)
according to lowyat philosopher will4848 has already pointed out, how can human perceived god if human never get in touch/communicate with god ??
if human can know what god is thinking and know his ability, then he is not god ...
u wont call a miracle is a miracle if u know the outcome, right ?  nod.gif
conclusion is, god cannot be perceived, human can only perceived their creativity n imagination    tongue.gif
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You might wanna address the theists with that instead of the atheists.
Do note that Buddhism is not a creationist religion and therefore what's usually being criticized of other religions do not apply to it.
You might wanna save yourself from this debate as Buddhism doesn't really make any absurd claims.

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