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> Atheists Agnostics Assemble, Ask and your answer will be served

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TSSpear2
post Aug 3 2018, 09:09 PM, updated 6d ago

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We continue here with me as the TS, which IMO is better. Same rules same principles, we seek to enlighten, not to ridicule. However spinner and tab dancer are not welcome. Illogical or irrational discussion will be kicked out. To be fair, these discussion and behavior would be tolerated until it becomes meaningless, which continued posting will be deleted. With that said, I open the thread for all with a quote,

“For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command nor faith a dictum. I am my own god. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.”
― Charles Bukowski

This post has been edited by Spear2: Aug 3 2018, 09:10 PM
TSSpear2
post Aug 3 2018, 09:39 PM

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QUOTE(khairul88hazwan @ Aug 3 2018, 01:11 PM)
Islam is peaceful religion while the world is not... war will happen sooner or later... it is a matter of time... many group wants to take over this world like illuminati , Russia, China etc...

Islamic expansion is occuring.... yes its good if the world respect Islamic expansion through peace but no way the other group will just surrender the victory to Islam... so the jihad will be relevant until the end....

I will not let the Atheist spread their lowest pokemon ideology.... plus there can never dominate a single state... haha
*
I will start with this leftover from a similar thread that was closed unexpectedly, maybe this is the reason why it was closed, someone complaint, so it must be censored ... So here goes nothing.

In fact waging wars clearly means Islam is not a peaceful religion. The act to dominate the world also clearly means Islam is not a peaceful religion. The same goes to Islam expansion and the jihad to achieve this, either you breed to expand or you wage war and dominate to expand, and from your post it is is likely to be both.

puchongite
post Aug 3 2018, 10:52 PM

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QUOTE(Spear2 @ Aug 3 2018, 09:39 PM)
I will start with this leftover from a similar thread that was closed unexpectedly, maybe this is the reason why it was closed, someone complaint, so it must be censored ... So here goes nothing.

In fact waging wars clearly means Islam is not a peaceful religion. The act to dominate the world also clearly means Islam is not a peaceful religion. The same goes to Islam expansion and the jihad to achieve this, either you breed to expand or you wage war and dominate to expand, and from your post it is is likely to be both.
*
To continue with the debate, I would like to present the points which are commonly brought up by Muslims, in the face of the accusation that "Islam is not a religion of peace".

1. Not every Muslim is an extremist. In fact most Muslims we never see them going out to bomb others. There are black sheep in every grouping, why people take the minority as the representation of Islam ?

2. Even Christian apologist David Wood admits that Christianity was once upon a time not a religion of peace. And even in Buddhism we find certain monks had performed violence. Perhaps there is very little meaning to obtaining a recognition as a religion of peace ? Why people seem to be a lot more critical about Islam ?

3. Islam followers are taught the idea of retaliation when needed. When a violent act is performed by a Muslim, with a little mental acrobatics, it can be passed off as a form of justifiable retaliation or even a self defence. And hence for example, anybody who leaves Islam can be perceived as trying to sabotage Islam. And hence it becomes justifiable to kill the apostates. And hence the 911 and paris terrorist attacks could all be passed of to fit the teaching of Islam. Is it reasonable to expect people to just receive oppression without doing anything ?

The assertion that "Islam is not a religion of peace" will probably require further elaboration.

What exactly people mean when they say Islam is not a religion of peace ?
BeastX
post Aug 3 2018, 11:03 PM

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QUOTE(drTai(Plastic Surgeon) @ Aug 3 2018, 10:45 PM)
Just arrived back from out of town. My question is why the Jews consider very smart and the Arabs are too hard to teach.?
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A significant amount of Jews are actually atheists.. Other than that there's little genetic difference...
ramz
post Aug 4 2018, 04:18 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Aug 3 2018, 10:52 PM)
To continue with the debate, I would like to present the points which are commonly brought up by Muslims, in the face of the accusation that "Islam is not a religion of peace".

1. Not every Muslim is an extremist. In fact most Muslims we never see them going out to bomb others. There are black sheep in every grouping, why people take the minority as the representation of Islam ?

2. Even Christian apologist David Wood admits that Christianity was once upon a time not a religion of peace. And even in Buddhism we find certain monks had performed violence. Perhaps there is very little meaning to obtaining a recognition as a religion of peace ? Why people seem to be a lot more critical about Islam ?

3. Islam followers are taught the idea of retaliation when needed. When a violent act is performed by a Muslim, with a little mental acrobatics, it can be passed off as a form of justifiable retaliation or even a self defence. And hence for example, anybody who leaves Islam can be perceived as trying to sabotage Islam. And hence it becomes justifiable to kill the apostates. And hence the 911 and paris terrorist attacks could all be passed of to fit the teaching of Islam. Is it reasonable to expect people to just receive oppression without doing anything ?

The assertion that "Islam is not a religion of peace" will probably require further elaboration.

What exactly people mean when they say Islam is not a religion of peace ?
*
Item 3 is interesting. Islam condone killing. But verses in Islamic scripture put conditions to kill. But the conditions are vague that they can easily be mapped to any situation on hand.

For example, Apostasy. They spin that Apostasy equate to treason and harmful to islam. Therefore I as a apostate must be killed. How is that justified? All I did is said I don't believe in islam. Is that treason? Of course not. And how is that harmful to islam? If islam is the Truth, nothing can harm it, especially an apostate. And I get sentence to death? I don't deserve death just on an opinion!

I leave u with a fundamental Muslim's thoughts on how he justifies his insane ideology. His delusion is there are enemies threatening islam that they must fight, and that Apostates are harmful to islam. Attached
Attached Image

This post has been edited by ramz: Aug 4 2018, 04:32 AM
Simply_Ed
post Aug 4 2018, 10:16 AM

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I consider myself to be an agnostic. Just a question that I’ve been pondering.

If there is no life after death, what is the purpose of our lives on earth and how do you convince yourself that whatever you’re doing has meaning ?

Consider that we are infinitesimally small compared to the size of the universe, and our life spans are negligeble against the life span of the universe. And how human race never existed before “recently” and potentially cease to exist in the future (an assumption).

This post has been edited by Simply_Ed: Aug 4 2018, 10:17 AM
ramz
post Aug 4 2018, 10:30 AM

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QUOTE(Simply_Ed @ Aug 4 2018, 10:16 AM)
I consider myself to be an agnostic. Just a question that I’ve been pondering.

If there is no life after death, what is the purpose of our lives on earth and how do you convince yourself that whatever you’re doing has meaning ?

Consider that we are infinitesimally small compared to the size of the universe, and our life spans are negligeble against the life span of the universe. And how human race never existed before “recently” and potentially cease to exist in the future (an assumption).
*
You make your purpose. You give meaning to your life. You. Just decide and go. It can be simple things like make your parents happy, or big things like solving world hunger. Just don't make your purpose in life is to go to heaven you will be fine.

Let the universe run its course. U playing a very, very tiny part in shaping it. The universe has been around for 14 billion years. It will be around for another 14 billion years minimum. There is no judgement day. That's all made up by theist
Simply_Ed
post Aug 4 2018, 10:52 AM

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QUOTE(ramz @ Aug 4 2018, 03:30 AM)
You make your purpose. You give meaning to your life. You. Just decide and go. It can be simple things like make your parents happy, or big things like solving world hunger. Just don't make your purpose in life is to go to heaven you will be fine.

Let the universe run its course. U playing a very, very tiny part  in shaping it. The universe has been around for 14 billion years. It will be around for another 14 billion years minimum. There is no judgement day. That's all made up by theist
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Cause what I understand about any religious people, generally is that they have certain guidelines to follow to whatever purpose they choose in life and their ultimate goal most usually is to transcend mortal life into the afterlife and gaining points by worshipping Shiva, or following the 10 commandments and being a Christian or praying 5 times a day and going to the Mosque etc.

From your reply, do you mean that as human beings we have no universal purpose and essentially just exists because of the Big Bang all the way through to evolution?

Also, If you aren’t govern by religion, do you then reflect on your actions through conscience, gut feeling, or do you follow the golden rule, silver rule, Kantian law ?

What stops you from being immoral or carrying out immoral actions ?

As an agnostic, I don’t believe in any sort of afterlife, heaven, hell, reincarnation etc. I believe we cease to exist when we die. But that’s a belief from my readings and upbringing thus far. Future experiences may change my beliefs.

This post has been edited by Simply_Ed: Aug 4 2018, 11:06 AM
ramz
post Aug 4 2018, 11:07 AM

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QUOTE(Simply_Ed @ Aug 4 2018, 10:52 AM)
Cause what I understand about any religious people, generally is that they have certain guidelines to follow to whatever purpose they choose in life and their ultimate goal most usually is to transcend mortal life into the afterlife and gaining points by worshipping Shiva, or following the 10 commandments and being a Christian or praying 5 times a day and going to the Mosque etc.

From your reply, do you mean that as human beings we have no universal purpose and essentially just exists because of the Big Bang all the way through to evolution?

Also, If you aren’t govern by religion, do you then reflect on your actions through conscience, following the golden rule, silver rule ?
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Yes no universal purpose. You make your own purpose. Purpose is opinion of yourself.

I am governed by my own morals and the law of the country. I don't need anymore governing body other than those 2. Of course I reflect on my actions. I don't go around stealing because my upbringing consider that it is wrong. Besides, it is against the law. The law helps, but it is mainly my internal moral compass. But if you escape the law u would do it right? No. But I can't speak for all. There are thieves that are atheist and religious.

This post has been edited by ramz: Aug 4 2018, 11:08 AM
puchongite
post Aug 4 2018, 11:23 AM

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QUOTE(Simply_Ed @ Aug 4 2018, 10:16 AM)
I consider myself to be an agnostic. Just a question that I’ve been pondering.

If there is no life after death, what is the purpose of our lives on earth and how do you convince yourself that whatever you’re doing has meaning ?

Consider that we are infinitesimally small compared to the size of the universe, and our life spans are negligeble against the life span of the universe. And how human race never existed before “recently” and potentially cease to exist in the future (an assumption).
*
What is the purpose of life ?

People often ask this question. Strictly speaking this is not the actual question people wanted to ask. It is more like the person wanted to ask: what is the most meaningful purpose of life for me ? In other words, he has noticed the purposes of life which he has been having have lost their meaning. He has found them not meaningful enough anymore.

For me the purpose of life as assigned by God ( if there is one ), is not meaningful enough. I don't find the promises in the heaven real and even if they are real, I don't find them meaningful. Why kind of meaning is that we have to live in our present life submitting like slaves to the God (Islamic concept). Similarly the Christian purpose of life is this :-

QUOTE
According to the Bible, our purpose, the reason we are here, is for God's glory.  In other words, our purpose is to praise God, worship him, to proclaim his greatness, and to accomplish his will.  This is what glorifies him.....
Seems both Islam and Christian are similar in the assertion of meaning in life.

Wow if this is really the purpose of life, can you imagine how degrading it is ? But there are plenty of theists will find this very meaningful for them.

That relationship reminds me of a documentary which show a male snake will "submit" itself as the food for the female snake, after having sex with the female, fulfilling the need to propagate the species. That's the purpose of life for the male snake. Its "choice" !!!

And so one should just look at his own self, to see what one is best at doing, and do it right. And make sure you could find it meaningful for your own self. You choose it. Different people find different meaning of life. If you could do big or small things which please you and useful to the society, I guess most people will find them meaningful enough.

This post has been edited by puchongite: Aug 4 2018, 11:39 AM
Lionel90
post Aug 4 2018, 11:42 AM

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QUOTE(Simply_Ed @ Aug 4 2018, 10:16 AM)
I consider myself to be an agnostic. Just a question that I’ve been pondering.

If there is no life after death, what is the purpose of our lives on earth and how do you convince yourself that whatever you’re doing has meaning ?

Consider that we are infinitesimally small compared to the size of the universe, and our life spans are negligeble against the life span of the universe. And how human race never existed before “recently” and potentially cease to exist in the future (an assumption).
*
The answer from a deist:
Our life on earth should be about making the world a better place, even if it's just by 0.00001%. Whatever you do would definitely has their meaning, see butterfly effect. For dramatization, see how 'alive' Einstein still is today.

I believe there is a God, but not one who care about how you wash your ass or if you pray to him. After all, if he needs our prayers that much, we should be the God to him. If he is kind enough to really grant us lives, he can't care enough whether or not you believe in him. If he cares that much, I don't really think he is as kind as glorified. Hence, I'm a deist. laugh.gif
puchongite
post Aug 4 2018, 12:17 PM

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QUOTE(Lionel90 @ Aug 4 2018, 11:42 AM)
The answer from a deist:
Our life on earth should be about making the world a better place, even if it's just by 0.00001%. Whatever you do would definitely has their meaning, see butterfly effect. For dramatization, see how 'alive' Einstein still is today.

I believe there is a God, but not one who care about how you wash your ass or if you pray to him. After all, if he needs our prayers that much, we should be the God to him. If he is kind enough to really grant us lives, he can't care enough whether or not you believe in him. If he cares that much, I don't really think he is as kind as glorified. Hence, I'm a deist. laugh.gif
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The purpose of life is not a fact seeking question. It cannot be answered as a scientific evaluation.

There is no such thing called something MUST be the purpose of life and must be true.

Purpose of life is a preference. It is about what is your preference and what is most meaningful to you.

But constraint by physical reality, preference may not be always achievable. When such thing happens, when ideal is not achievable, people lost their meaning in life and start to question the purpose of their existence. For example when people are poor, cannot find enough money to buy food to feed themselves, then they start asking the purpose of the suffering/existence.

And under such circumstances, a stubborn belief that every exists for purpose, give them faith to sustain and to hang on.
RGRaj
post Aug 4 2018, 02:17 PM

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QUOTE(Simply_Ed @ Aug 4 2018, 10:16 AM)
I consider myself to be an agnostic. Just a question that I’ve been pondering.

If there is no life after death, what is the purpose of our lives on earth and how do you convince yourself that whatever you’re doing has meaning ?

Consider that we are infinitesimally small compared to the size of the universe, and our life spans are negligeble against the life span of the universe. And how human race never existed before “recently” and potentially cease to exist in the future (an assumption).
*
Among all living entities, only the human has the mental capacity to enquire about the cause & purpose of his existence. So the idea is to stop taking birth again by perfection of self realization.
rzam
post Aug 4 2018, 09:00 PM

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QUOTE(Simply_Ed @ Aug 4 2018, 10:52 AM)
Cause what I understand about any religious people, generally is that they have certain guidelines to follow to whatever purpose they choose in life and their ultimate goal most usually is to transcend mortal life into the afterlife and gaining points by worshipping Shiva, or following the 10 commandments and being a Christian or praying 5 times a day and going to the Mosque etc.

From your reply, do you mean that as human beings we have no universal purpose and essentially just exists because of the Big Bang all the way through to evolution?

Also, If you aren’t govern by religion, do you then reflect on your actions through conscience, gut feeling, or do you follow the golden rule, silver rule, Kantian law ?

What stops you from being immoral or carrying out immoral actions ?

As an agnostic, I don’t believe in any sort of afterlife, heaven, hell, reincarnation etc. I believe we cease to exist when we die. But that’s a belief from my readings and upbringing thus far. Future experiences may change my beliefs.
*

puchongite
post Aug 4 2018, 09:19 PM

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QUOTE(rzam @ Aug 4 2018, 09:00 PM)
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

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The guy with cap is spitting so much nonsense.

But in this instance, he seems to on the upper hand of the debate, as his opponent seems to be lost when swamped by those weird questions - those questions which he has never be bothered unless he is a frequent debater.

But winning a debate has nothing to do with the truth.

The purpose of life as designated by God, for me, is like the slave's purpose in life is for the master ( read my earlier posts on purpose of life ).

Theists love such purpose in life but I find it utterly degrading.

Pretty sure people who like to control your mind, do not like the idea that you choose your purpose in life. They are only interested to impose a purpose of life onto you.

This post has been edited by puchongite: Aug 4 2018, 09:40 PM
TSSpear2
post Aug 4 2018, 09:36 PM

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QUOTE(khairul88hazwan @ Aug 4 2018, 02:08 PM)
You are delusional... Islam has its enemies... Islam is the positive force...
Like it or not the negative force will counter it....

Through history you can see war every now and then... Islam has to fought for its survival and for growth in peaceful or even war if it has to survive.... Islam is not weak.... it has face the barbarian Mongol and won and its face Persian Force and Rome Force and won....

Now , after its empire collapse Muslim is kinda weak and get bullied a lot...  it will be different if all the Arab nation are united under one flag ....
The America wants to control the world by being Police of The World and to control the Arab and Islamic country... you cannot denied it...

Why eventhough the Nazi who do the holocaust and cruelty the Arab and Muslim country has to suffer by putting Israel in the middle of Arab Country?? ISLAM Will rise and put stop all these bullying and discrimination the negative force do to it in the future....

We will rise and become stronger in the future... Islam is a peaceful religion but it is not inferior... you can see it rise from the desert who has nothing and spread its powerful ideology through the world and help the western on ots reinassance era...
*
Your comments are only good for coffee shop talk, no scholarship, no depth, no learning, only feel good among friends who would nod in agreement at every words said. You grabbed whatever you know, which is little and stitched them together haphazardly for an argument for Islam, like a street peddler slapping his palms together demonstrating the efficacy of his medicine, sure it can cure cancer.

Here read a bit more and come back with some learning and a better argument,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Baghdad_(1258)
Hulagu began his campaign in Iran with several offensives against Nizari groups, including the Assassins, who lost their stronghold of Alamut. He then marched on Baghdad, demanding that Al-Musta'sim accede to the terms imposed by Möngke on the Abbasids. Although the Abbasids had failed to prepare for the invasion, the Caliph believed that Baghdad could not fall to invading forces and refused to surrender. Hulagu subsequently besieged the city, which surrendered after 12 days. During the next week, the Mongols sacked Baghdad, committing numerous atrocities and destroying the Abbasids' vast libraries, including the House of Wisdom. The Mongols executed Al-Musta'sim and massacred many residents of the city, which was left greatly depopulated. The siege is considered to mark the end of the Islamic Golden Age, during which the caliphs had extended their rule from the Iberian Peninsula to Sindh, and which was also marked by many cultural achievements.[7]

Yes Islam empire will rise again but then will be slaughtered by Mongols again, so is that your argument too?
rzam
post Aug 4 2018, 11:42 PM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Aug 4 2018, 09:19 PM)
The guy with cap is spitting so much nonsense.

But in this instance, he seems to on the upper hand of the debate, as his opponent seems to be lost when swamped by those weird questions - those questions which he has never be bothered unless he is a frequent debater.

But winning a debate has nothing to do with the truth.

The purpose of life as designated by God, for me, is like the slave's purpose in life is for the master ( read my earlier posts on purpose of life ).

Theists love such purpose in life but I find it utterly degrading.

Pretty sure people who like to control your mind, do not like the idea that you choose your purpose in life. They are only interested to impose a purpose of life onto you.
*
who effing cares of what you think?

debate is where someone is to point out their views
and answering their claims to prove them with evidence
else,we all know that your claim is just emotional,not intellectual
its made public so that people can judge for themselves
not to find who is the winner or looser

in almost all cases i cant seem to find a good atheist debate
except between atheist and christians

i'am imagining people like urself are like this dude



ramz
post Aug 5 2018, 12:02 AM

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QUOTE(rzam @ Aug 4 2018, 11:42 PM)
who effing cares of what you think?

debate is where someone is to point out their views
and answering their claims to prove them with evidence
else,we all know that your claim is just emotional,not intellectual
its made public so that people can judge for themselves
not to find who is the winner or looser

in almost all cases i cant seem to find a good atheist debate
except between atheist and christians


i'am imagining people like urself are like this dude


*
Look who is talking? Why you not answering my arguments? You are the one who is avoiding my debate. You are the case that you can't find
ramz
post Aug 5 2018, 07:01 AM

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QUOTE(khairul88hazwan @ Aug 4 2018, 02:08 PM)
You are delusional... Islam has its enemies... Islam is the positive force...
Like it or not the negative force will counter it....

Through history you can see war every now and then... Islam has to fought for its survival and for growth in peaceful or even war if it has to survive.... Islam is not weak.... it has face the barbarian Mongol and won and its face Persian Force and Rome Force and won....

Now , after its empire collapse Muslim is kinda weak and get bullied a lot...  it will be different if all the Arab nation are united under one flag ....
The America wants to control the world by being Police of The World and to control the Arab and Islamic country... you cannot denied it...

Why eventhough the Nazi who do the holocaust and cruelty the Arab and Muslim country has to suffer by putting Israel in the middle of Arab Country?? ISLAM Will rise and put stop all these bullying and discrimination the negative force do to it in the future....

We will rise and become stronger in the future... Islam is a peaceful religion but it is not inferior... you can see it rise from the desert who has nothing and spread its powerful ideology through the world and help the western on ots reinassance era...
*
Islam won't rise in your life time. Sorry you won't be around to witness it. Look at the Islamic nations. Who are the most influential? None. Qatar, uae, Brunei, Malaysia are the best around but their performance are dismal. Israel is stepping all over Muslims and there is nothing Islamic Nations can do about it. Coz they are weak. Not in your life time Khairul hazwan. But don't let me stop you from telling your fairy tales stories.
ramz
post Aug 5 2018, 07:13 AM

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QUOTE(rzam @ Aug 4 2018, 11:42 PM)
who effing cares of what you think?

debate is where someone is to point out their views
and answering their claims to prove them with evidence
else,we all know that your claim is just emotional,not intellectual
its made public so that people can judge for themselves
not to find who is the winner or looser

in almost all cases i cant seem to find a good atheist debate
except between atheist and christians

i'am imagining people like urself are like this dude


*
The video u posted is not even the premise of an atheist. The guy is claiming there is no God. That is not the atheist claim. Our 'claim' is there is no evidence a god exist. In other words, we are not sure if there is a God or no god coz there is no concrete evidence either way. So why don't you open up another thread called "God doesn't exist" and post the video there.

Analogy is the needle in the haystack story. If u claim there is a needle (god) u must prove to me by showing me the needle. If I claim there is no needle, then I have to search every inch of the haystack, with your presence, to prove there is no needle (no god). But if I say I am not convinced there is a needle. YOU must prove me wrong by providing me the needle.

This post has been edited by ramz: Aug 5 2018, 07:23 AM

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