Hi thomas,

I do not agree to TULIP (pillars of Calvinism). I understand that not all Calvinists agree to all 5 points of TULIP either. Perhaps some even just hold on to Perseverance of the Saints.

As for the Elect, the million dollar question is, you don't know & won't know, whether you're in that particular group until after you die Only God knows who is predestined in that sense.

So yes, i do agree with the Sovereignty of God & all those verses you quoted.

My bone of contention with Calvinists is the OSAS doctrine. I've been fighting tooth and nail against the heresy of OSAS.

For you to follow Calvinism, i guess you'll first have to know what kind of man Calvin really was. And to a certain extent, Martin Luther. Maybe Augustine too. I've read up on their history. Enough to know what Calvinism stands for.

The thing is, those who believe in the false doctrine of OSAS, almost always hold on to to another false doctrine, the Pre-Tribulation Rapture fantasy. Yup, that's another huge can of worms.

And yes, i guess it's best that we let this be our last post on the subject of Calvinism



Just to chime in a bit, I do not believe in 'Once Saved Always Saved' either. Suffice to say, it's a conditional eternal security. A Covenant takes two hands to clap.

People like to accuse the true gospel of being WORKS-BASED in that, it's hypocrisy.

Christianity has not faithfully delivered the “faith once delivered”.

The Gospel is never just : FAITH + Nothing

God in heaven said that, if a righteous man turns away from his righteous way and goes and commit evil in the sight of the Lord, he shall surely be condemned because his righteousness will not be remembered, but if an evil man turns away from his evil path and does what is right the Lord will not remember his evil against him and will declare him righteous.

Now this righteousness that we do is obedience to Jesus Christ. Obviously we cannot make ourselves righteous, only Jesus makes you righteous when he sets you free from sin. But once you are set free and then you go back to following this world, your previous righteousness is no longer counted and now your evil is counted against you.

Ezekiel 18:24 i think.

& incredibly, i actually get lynched for promoting works salvation here, which is not the case. The resistance is very strong here, as displayed by UW, zanness among others.

Heck, penguin even cursed me to hell using his Dr. Ninja dupe. The mods had to remove his posts


Nobody is even implying about working for our salvation! That’s a straw man argument most OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) folks have to pull up, in order to support their flawed doctrine.

Majority of Christians will foam at the mouth & scream their heads off, when works are mentioned after coming to Salvation.

“How dare you even suggest keeping God’s laws, or commandments or being obedient??!! That is works!”




There are many verses that warn against falling away, ship-wrecking faith, etc. Who are they for, if Salvation is "Lock, Stock & Barrel" & "Jesus Did It All"?

I'm of the opinion that Obedience after coming to Saving Faith is crucial, not optional. The book of JAMES explains it clearly. Faith without works is a dead faith. The 1st century believers understood Christianity as a WAY of life.

So far, i've only seen desmond & jul quoting James. That's all.


Point to ponder :

IS OUR FAITH A UNILATERAL CONTRACT TO ACQUIRE A "FREE TICKET TO HEAVEN"?

OR IS IT A TWO-WAY BLOOD COVENANT BETWEEN US AND OUR MESSIAH, A COMMITMENT UNTO DEATH? HAS OUR SALVATION OF "CHEAP GRACE" BECOME JUST ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF A CHURCH MARKETED "INDULGENCE"?

OR IS IT A BLOOD COVENANT IN WHICH WE WILL SELL OUT ALL WE HAVE AND ALL WE ARE FOR OUR SAVIOR AND LORD?



Get our Hamartiology wrong ------> Soteriology wrong ------> Eschatology wrong

That's just the way it is with modern day churches.

Bottom line : Repentance proven through DEEDS



Anyway, i'm weary of the endless exchanges with UW on the OSAS subject. Already said enough. I'll just leave you guys to a peaceful V14.

You seem to be chuffed to bits concerning the thief on the cross, or to be more blunt, an affinity for deathbed conversions.

You think that it supports your view of ‘Once Saved Always Saved’ (OSAS), because there were no "works" involved

So let me indulge your senses. Jump back to the scene at Golgotha.


1) Lets look at what Matthew says in Chapter 27, shall we:

Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,

42He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.

43He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

44The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.


….ok……so no mention about repentant thief here. Only mocking.



2) How about Mark Chapter 15:


30Save thyself, and come down from the cross.

31Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.

32Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.


Oooops! Nothing there either reviled = criticize in an abusive or angrily insulting manner.





3) Why don’t we try John Chapter 19 now:

18Where they crucified him, and two others with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst.

19And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.

20This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, andGreek, and Latin.

21Then said the chief priests of the Jews to Pilate, Write not, The King of the Jews; but that he said, I am King of the Jews.

22Pilate answered, What I have written I have written.

23Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout.

24They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.

25Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
26When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
27Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.
28After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
29Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
30When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
31The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

32Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.

33But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:





Oh dear! John doesn’t say anything either! Neither do 2 of the 3 Synoptic Gospels!




So where is your 'thief on the cross' now, UW? You sure he's in paradise?


Here are some verses for you to consider:

"But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’" - Matthew 18:16

"This is the third time I am coming to you. “Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.” - 2 Corinthians 13:1

"Do not entertain an accusation against an elder, except on the testimony of two or three witnesses" - 1st Timothy 5:19

"Anyone who rejected the Law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses." - Hebrews 10:28

"One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established." - Deuteronomy 19:15

NOW the above is consistency


"Therefore produce fruit worthy of repentance." - Luke 3:8

"Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." - Matthew 7:20

"He will render to each one according to his works: " - Romans 2:6 (ESV)

"Who will render to every man according to his deeds: " - Romans 2:6 (KJV)

What sort of fruits do thieves normally produce?

This post has been edited by Mr. WongSF: Jul 28 2018, 03:10 AM

Did you know that John Calvin had Michael Servetus burned at the stake for defying his beloved trinity doctrine? Is that the love of God, to burn men alive who don’t agree with you? Do not fruits tell?

You Catholics slander & lie, just like your Calvinistic brothers do, about Michael Servetus who was a true servant of God. Have you actually read the books you quoted?

The highlighted in red, is a trumped up charge used to slander & to bring down an innocent man!



The Lord Jesus Christ laid out a simple guideline for identifying the true and false among us. He said:

“You can tell what they are by what they do. No one picks grapes or figs from thorn bushes. A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot produce good fruit. Every tree that produces bad fruit will be chopped down and burned. You can tell who the false prophets are by their deeds” Matthew 7:16-20.

Aside from any discussion of doctrines, by this criterion alone John Calvin was a false prophet of the first order. How do we know?

Because he condoned and excused, when not initiating it himself, the persecution and murder of those who opposed his doctrines and position. These are not the good fruits of a man of God.

One such as Calvin who kills others because they differ with his beliefs is a murderer.

That is precisely what Saul of Tarsus was before he was turned by God:

“Then Saul, still breathing murderous threats against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and requested from him letters of authority to the synagogues of Damascus, that if he should find any who were of the Way, both men or women, he might bring them, having been bound, to Jerusalem” - Acts 9:1-2.

And Jesus said to him: “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” - Acts 9:4

After the Lord turned him, did Saul then persecute and slay real heretics, unlike the true brethren of Christ and children of God whom he had previously persecuted in his ignorance and religious zeal? Never! He was now found to be the persecuted one, by those that were his former comrades in unbelief; they stoned him, whipped him, beat him with rods, and then killed him. Why did they do this? Because of the gospel Paul preached. They could not bear to hear the Truth. They said: “Get rid of this man! He doesn’t deserve to live” - Acts 22:22 .

John Calvin said the same thing of Michael Servetus, a man that dared to disagree with his cherished doctrinal formulations. Seven years before Calvin actually saw to it that Servetus was put to death, he said: “If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight.”

Calvin made good on his threat. Why? Because he had no answers to Michael Servetus’ correction of his false doctrines, and he could not bear to be proven wrong and to lose face.

The temporal power he had taken to himself was predicated on being right. He was a very proud man; God resists the proud.

Did Paul call on men to repay the evildoers? No, he identified them and their evil for the sake of those who would listen, recognizing and proceeding according to the Lord’s injunction:

“Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore, be wise as serpents and harmless as doves” - Matthew 10:16

Paul left it to God to judge those opposed to the gospel, and was willing to pay the price for his stance with his own blood, which he did. The saints shed their blood for, and not the blood of, sinners.




How Shall True Believers React to Unbelievers?

What else are we to learn from Paul and his conversion from a violent persecutor of Christ’s brethren to a man who took much abuse for the privilege of being identified with Jesus Christ?

Paul himself gives us the answer that he received of the Lord:

“However, because of this I was shown mercy, so that in me first Jesus Christ might show forth all longsuffering, as a pattern for those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life” - 1 Timothy 1:16 .

John Calvin does not fit this pattern – quite the opposite. He did not suffer those that disagreed with him even to live. He played the part of persecutor. He set an evil example, against the admonition of the apostle John:

“We are not to resemble Cain, who was a child of the Evil One and killed his own brother. And why did he kill him? Because his own actions were wicked and his brother’s actions righteous” - 1 John 3:12 WNT.

Can anyone truly defend Calvin? Amazingly enough, many try to do so in the Name of Christ. thomasthai among others.

They do not realize they have put their hand in the hand of a murderer, and now their hands are also stained with the blood of the saints, whom Calvin persecuted and yet persecutes by his spirit that lives in those who follow him.

For they were not heretics that Calvin persecuted, but the very brethren of Christ. As Jesus said to His brothers:

“Certainly, the time is coming when people who murder you will think that they are serving God” - John 16:2.

The Scriptures are not ambiguous about Calvin’s works and their origin:

“Everyone hating his brother is a murderer. And you know that no murderer has everlasting life abiding in him” - 1 John 3:15 .

Calvin was such a man.








i'm calling BS on that one!

What horrid confusion, vainglory, and strife have been produced by philosophers posing as Christians, putting God under a microscope in their intellectual laboratories and dissecting Him into three beings;

even messing with the Scriptures to support their damnable heresies! What arrogance! What presumption!

These are doctrines of devils designed to confound and derail seekers of truth. They are there to test the pilgrims traveling to the celestial city of God. Paul told the Corinthians:

“For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved [of God] may be made manifest among you” (1 Corinthians 11:19 KJV).

The Scriptures also say:

“Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God is ONE LORD” (Deuteronomy 6:4 KJV).

“There is ONE LORD, one faith, one baptism” (Ephesians 4:5).

“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory” (1 Timothy 3:16 KJV).

“Jesus said to him, Have I been with you such a long time and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father. And how do you say, Show us the Father?” (John 14:9 MKJV)

“Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost has made you overseers, to feed the Church of God, which He has purchased with His own blood” (Acts 20:28).

Who purchased the Church of God – Jesus, the Holy Ghost, or God?

Some apologist for the trinity doctrine came up with the fancy explanation that we pray to the Father, through the Son, by the Holy Spirit. But who did Stephen pray to when he was stoned?

“And they stoned Stephen, who was calling on God and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit” (Acts 7:59 MKJV).

Perhaps the trauma of the experience hindered him from understanding the difficult, yes, impossible, concept of the trinity and remembering how he ought to relate to it? (Who can conceive such a thing?)

The arguments of Trinitarians are the products of brain-soiling and quite easily countered with truth from Scripture.

Jesus said, “My sheep hear My voice.” I hear the voice of God. Do I hear introductions like, “This is the Father,” or, “This time it’s the Son,” or, “Yesterday you heard from the Son, but today I, the Holy Spirit, am speaking”? Or do I sometimes hear a chorus of three voices? No, I hear one voice, as did all the prophets of God. He is One, not three.

Jesus is God, and all the figurative language Jesus and others used concerning the Person of God is understood by those to whom it is given. Isaiah says there is only one Savior and none besides Him:

Isaiah 45:21-23 MKJV
(21) Declare and bring near; yea, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this of old? Who has told it from then? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me; a just God and a Savior; there is none besides Me.
(22) Turn to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.
(23) I have sworn by Myself, the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Philippians 2:9-11 MKJV
(9) Therefore God has highly exalted Him, and has given Him a Name which is above every name,
(10) that at the Name of Jesus every knee should bow, of heavenly ones, and of earthly ones, and of ones under the earth;
(11) and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Isaiah calls the Son “Wonderful, Counselor, the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.” God presented Himself to the world in a body formed for the purpose, and we are to worship Him as He is. Anything else is folly.

I am one person. I am a father, a son, and a husband. That may make three positions or roles, but it doesn’t make me three people. So it is with God, the Lord Jesus Christ. The Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is Lord (Father) Jesus (Son) Christ (Holy Spirit, meaning “Anointed One”).

Man was created in God’s image. Is man three persons? If God is three, but man is one, the image God created is false. But God isn’t three, and His image is perfectly accurate. Yes, I’m spirit, soul, and body, but I’m one person, not three.







So does your Calvinists Bible read like the following :



The Gospel According to Trinitarians

“But what does it say? ‘The Word is near you, even in your mouth and in your heart’; that is, the Word of Faith which we proclaim; Because if you confess the Trinity, and believe in your heart that God is Triune, you shall be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses unto salvation. For the Scripture says, ‘Everyone believing in the Trinity shall not be put to shame.’ For there is no difference both of Jew and of Greek, for the same Lords over all are rich to all who call on Them. For everyone, ‘whoever shall call on the Trinity will be saved’” (Romans 10:8-13 MKJV).

“For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in the Trinity should not perish but have everlasting life” (John 3:16 MKJV).

“He who believes on the Trinity is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the Trinity” (John 3:18 MKJV).

“He who believes on the Trinity has everlasting life, and he who does not believe the Trinity shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him” (John 3:36 MKJV).

“Then Peter said to them, ‘Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the Trinity to remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit’” (Acts 2:38 MKJV).

“Philip said, ‘If you believe with all your heart, it is lawful.’ And he answered and said, ‘I believe in the Trinity.’ And he commanded the chariot to stand still. And they both went down into the water, both Philip and the eunuch. And he baptized him” (Acts 8:37-38 MKJV).

“All the Prophets give witness to the Trinity, that through the name of the Trinity whoever believes in the Trinity shall receive remission of sins” (Acts 10:43 MKJV).

“And leading them outside, he said, ‘Sirs, what must I do to be saved?’ And they said, ‘Believe on the Trinity and you shall be saved, and your household’” (Acts 16:30-31 MKJV)

“And Paul said, ‘John truly baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on the Trinity coming after him, that is, into the Trinity.’ And hearing, they were baptized in the name of the Trinity” (Acts 19:4-5 MKJV).

“And this is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is Triune, and in Him is no singleness without Three” (1 John 1:5 MKJV).

“And by this we know that we have known Him, if we believe in the Trinity. He who says, ‘I have known Him,’ and does not believe the Trinity, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever believes the Trinity, truly in this one the love of God is perfected. By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought to believe in the Trinity” (1 John 2:3-6 MKJV).

“Who is a liar but he who denies the Trinity? He who denies the Trinity is anti-Christ. Everyone who denies the Trinity has neither the Father nor the Son. The one confessing the Trinity has the Father and the Son” (1 John 2:22-23 MKJV). Haledoch

“We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the Trinity. He who does not love the Trinity abides in death” (1 John 3:14 MKJV).

“And this is His commandment, that we should believe on the Trinity, and love one another, as He gave us commandment. And he who believes in the Trinity dwells in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by believing in the Trinity” (1 John 3:23-24 MKJV).

“Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but try the spirits to see if they believe in the Trinity, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses the Trinity is of God; and every spirit that does not confess the Trinity is not of God. And this is the anti-Christ you heard is coming, and even now is already in the world” (1 John 4:1-3 MKJV).

“By this we know that we dwell in Him, and He in us, because we believe in the Trinity. And we have seen and testify that the Trinity was sent to be the Savior of the world. Whoever shall confess the Trinity, God dwells in him and he in God” (1 John 4:13-15 MKJV).

“Everyone who believes in the Trinity has been born of God. And everyone who loves Him Who begets also loves him who has been born of Him. By this we know that we love the children of God, whenever we love the Trinity. For this is the love of God, that we believe in the Trinity, and this is not burdensome. For everything that has been born of God believes the Trinity. And this is the victory that overcomes the world, our faith. Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes in the Trinity?” (1 John 5:1-5 MKJV)





By the way, the italicized words in this next verse are inserted by the translators, not to be found in the most original manuscripts:

“For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on the earth: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and the three are into the one” (1 John 5:7-8 MKJV).

“He who has the Trinity has life; he who does not have the Trinity does not have life. I have written these things to you who believe on the name of the Trinity, that you may know that you have everlasting life, and that you may believe on the name of the Trinity” (1 John 5:12-13 MKJV).

“For many deceivers have entered into the world, who do not confess the Trinity. This is the deceiver and the anti-Christ” (2 John 1:7 MKJV).

“Everyone transgressing and not believing in the Trinity does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of the Trinity, he has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring the doctrine of the Trinity, do not receive him into your house, nor speak a greeting to him” (2 John 1:9-10 MKJV).


whoa, dangerous mang!




"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." - Jude 4-6

STOP IT I've never advocated 'works based' salvation. Only Obedience. Endurance. Perseverance. Narrow path.

"He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; "- Rom 2:6-7

" If ye love me, keep my commandments. "- John 14:15

So you really got to stop pinning this 'works based' straw man on me. It's tiring.

e.g. People who follow Buddha & think works will safe them, ARE 'works-based' religions. Do you get it? We follow Jesus. Discipleship. The WAY.

Not just merely professing an intellectual belief, but showing it in our ACTIONS.


"She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." - John 8:11

Why would Jesus say, to go & sin no more if it's not possible?

"So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man" - Acts 24:16


Haih UW, you're the one who purposely refuse to understand this (heck, even the RC fella understands this!), & hold on to your antinomianism beliefs of 'saved in the spirit, but still sinful in the flesh'.

So you gotta stop propagating this 'sinless perfection is not possible' nonsense. You've been fed too much diabolical doctrines by modern day churches.

THAT.............is heresy.




Also, since you're too thick to understand the point that i've been trying to make, regarding the thief on the cross, let me elaborate.

refer to my post here https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopi...post&p=89748947

Without the two or three witnesses required, it is not established truth before God.

Considering the manner of life of the saints in the Scriptures, you’ll not find one instance where they sought to convert a person to faith at time of death.

That’s because nothing whatsoever is commanded or taught by God that would induce one to coerce or cajole last-minute professions of faith from anybody.

Such wouldn’t be true faith. Men of faith die as men of faith, and the wicked die in their sins.

The 'story' is the one and only(not as what you claim : consistent throughout the Bible ) witness to that doctrine in all of Scripture, because the story is spurious.

While the Lord doesn’t cast off any who come to Him, this account doesn’t match how things work.

Inner change takes place over time.

Nowhere is repentance or the necessity of exercising newfound faith for spiritual growth mentioned.

It’s all about, “Remember me, Lord,” and finding oneself transported into Paradise as if by magic.

Of course my posts don't make sense to you, when you're interpreting scripture with your carnal mind. You pretend to not understand. OSAS? Co mon!





Apart from this 'thief on the cross' story, which tells you about 'death bed conversions', show me where else in the Bible is there another example like this??

Don't simply say!

SHOW ME!!


You pretend to not understand, because you refuse to understand! You are setting a really dangerous precedent here. 'Easy believism' was never taught in the 1st century.

The stakes were high for the Christians of that time. They knew & understood what following Christ meant.

Which includes certain death, in the face of lions at circuses.






p.s. Martin Luther did not want the Book of James to be included in the Canon. He couldn't fit it into his doctrine.

If the answer you were given wasn't so wrong, I wouldn't have bothered sending you this.

So here goes:

Lets break down all 3 verses slowly.

v21 The only people who will enter are those who do what my Father in heaven wants


What does 'doing' here mean? Keeping God's commandments. They failed to keep God's commandments till the end. They began as believers, but ended differently.

In short, they fell away. Just think about it. If you are a not a Christian, would you call Jesus 'Lord'? Say, if you're a Buddhist or a Taoist, would you call Jesus 'Lord'? Doesn't make much sense, would it?

Get my point? Yes, these people were ONCE Christians.


v22 by the power of your name we spoke for God. And by your name we forced out demons and did many miracles.



This verse is the most telling. It's the key as to what/who the identity of these people really are/were. Examine this verse carefully.

They could cast out demons!!!

How do you actually do that? Well, not unless you have a higher authority!

You cast out demons in the name of Jesus! How can one possibly do that?

Well, unless they're Christians of course!

You don't see Buddhists or Hindus going, "in the name of Jesus, i command you to come out!", Do we?

Also, they claimed to have performed miracles in whose name? Yes. In Jesus' name. They definitely acknowledged him at one point as their Lord.


For more evidence of this, pls kindly refer to verse 26 below :

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Matthew 12:22-28

A House Divided Cannot Stand

22 Then one was brought to Him who was demon-possessed, blind and mute; and He healed him, so that the [a]blind and mute man both spoke and saw.

23 And all the multitudes were amazed and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”

24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.”

25 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand.

26If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand?

27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges.

28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So in conclusion, these people were definitely Christian believers at one point. Unfortunately, they didn't persevere til the end. They went back into the world after experiencing the power of Christ in their lives,

which was pretty evident, given the miracles & exorcisms that they could perform.


"But when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and practices iniquity, committing the same abominations as the wicked, will he live? None of the righteous acts he did will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness and sin he has committed, he will die." - Ezekiel 18:24


v23 Then I will tell those people clearly, ‘Get away from me, you people who do wrong. I never knew you.’



I think that the explanation given by the previous poster to you is very flimsy, considering that he was just using word play to justify his stance. Not a terribly solid premise to base the whole passage on, IMO.


In the Contemporary English Version for instance, it says :

"But I will tell them, "I will have nothing to do with you! Get out of my sight, you evil people!"

All i can say is that, you will have to determine in Greek or Hebrew, whether 'I never knew you', was originally in the past tense or the present tense or even past participle. Also, look up parallel passages.


The warning above, given to Christians is indeed sobering. It's a warning that the possibility of falling away & ship-wrecking one's faith is a very really possibility if we're not careful.



Hope this helps

Hi again,

That is why, we first have to establish who these people really are. Sure, there are those who can perform counterfeit miracles. I do not deny this. BUT they perform counterfeit miracles NOT in the name of Jesus'.

That is the crux & is the main contrast.

But in this situation, that is not the case. These people actually claimed, that they performed all these in the name of Jesus'.

That is also why, i quoted Matthew 12:22-28 for your benefit. ( You can also refer to Luke 11:15 - 20 ) Here it is again :



Matthew 12:22-28

A House Divided Cannot Stand

22 Then one was brought to Him who was demon-possessed, blind and mute; and He healed him, so that the [a]blind and mute man both spoke and saw.

23 And all the multitudes were amazed and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”

24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.”

25 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand.

26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand?

27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges.

28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.





These people claimed that they cast out demons. They also claimed that they did it in the name of Jesus. Therefore, we objectively look at the act itself.

How is it possible to successfully cast out a demon from someone, unless you really have the power & authority of God to do it? Which they actually did perform.

NOW UNLESS you say that they're all liars & just pretended to perform exorcism, then you've already made up your mind & i rest my case.

But just so you know, both you & i weren't there. So if they say what they did is true, which the Bible says so as well, then we'll just have to assume that they did INDEED perform such miracles & exorcism THROUGH THE NAME OF JESUS.

They already declared that they performed the 'casting out of demons' through Jesus' name. Which means they credited God for it. They did not cast demons out by Buddha, not Mo, not Vishnu, etc.

You must understand this, a non-Christian will not say things that give glory to God.


Case in point :

Luke 9:49-50

49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbade him, because he followeth not with us.

50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.


Okay, so we can conclude that these folks were indeed performing miracles & casting out demons in the name of Christ.






Next,

The reason why i said the premise used by the previous poster is flimsy, is because of the English word play on 'never'. You have to be careful with how the whole sentence is said in its original text.

For that, i can't help you, because i don't know Hebrew or Greek or Aramaic. So you'll have to take the english translations at face value. Like i quoted from the Contemporary Eng ver, it says :


But I will tell them, "I will have nothing to do with you! Get out of my sight, you evil people!" - Matthew 7:23 (Cont Eng ver)

Notice it doesn't say, ' I never knew you'.

You cannot just say, ahh, ' I never knew you'. So that's it then. That means these people were all liars from the beginning. That is not good exegesis IMHO.

I'm not calling these people liars for claiming what they could perform. I believe they were once genuine believers. Neither am i saying that God is a liar. In this context, God is denying them entrance into the Kingdom.




Again, if you missed out on the verse that i left you, here it is :



"But when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and practices iniquity, committing the same abominations as the wicked, will he live? None of the righteous acts he did will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness and sin he has committed, he will die." - Ezekiel 18:24




For me, it's very simple. There are 2 camps here :



Camp 1 : Those who believe in 'Once Saved, Always Saved'. So by default, they will naturally reinforce their view points, by saying that these people weren't saved to begin with. Jesus never knew them from the start.


Camp 2: Those who believe that while their Faith were genuine at some point in their lives, it fizzled out towards the end & did not keep the Faith. These will hear those terrible words which you quoted in verse 23.


It's obvious to you by now, as to which camp i belong to







Finally, coming back to the English translations. Just to reinforce my point :

You must have seen the word 'Saved', in the Bible countless times. You also hear people say often, "I was saved 10 years ago."

However, the word 'Saved' in the Bible is seldom in the past tense. The more accurate translation is, 'we are in the process of being saved'. It's not completely done yet. Interesting ain't it?

For this, you'll have to do your own D.D.

I'll just leave you with one of many explanations : https://www.simplybible.com/f066-sure-saved...hree-tenses.htm


Hope it helps

Dear mr Calvinist Cessationist,

a Continuationist will disagree with you. In fact, i sincerely believe that the gifts will still be fully operational during the tribulation period.

Regards

Wokeh, i stand corrected. This guy is bad. Harry Potter bad.

Peace bro



edited : I just saw you say charismatic, so i wanted to share a little. I attended a charismatic church for decades. There were people speaking in 'tongues'. I couldn't understand what they were saying. Some were loud.

I also witnessed what they call 'Holy Laughter'. Folks would laugh & fall on the floor. Then the ushers would cover them with pieces of cloth to preserve their modesty. They would cont laughing for quite a while.

This next thing, i only heard about, but unfortunately was never around to witness it....'Slain in the Spirit'. Some folks would fly a few rows back suddenly.

But i do not see any of these things happening at my new church. None at all. & i've been attending since end 2010.



This post has been edited by Mr. WongSF: Oct 23 2018, 01:43 AM

Hi Vrese

Here is another angle presented by the evangelist Miho Valle. Verbatim:


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v21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;

Note: who calls Jesus Lord? Unbelievers?

How can unbelievers call Jesus Lord, if they don't believe in him? Do Atheists call him Lord? Try asking a devout Jew, see if they will call Jesus Lord. Only believers call him Lord.







"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" - Luke 6:46

for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How then can they call on the One they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the One of whom they have not heard?

And how can they hear without someone to preach? - Romans 10:13 - 14


Note: I grew up a Christian, a believer of Jesus Christ as Lord and savior. Yet, I've gotten into drugs, and an alcoholic for 30 years. Went into the Occult, and New Age beliefs.

I would drink, get drunk and preach Jesus as Lord and savior. I would preach in church and come home drink and smoke cigarettes. Yet I called Him Lord. If I had died, would I still go to heaven after calling him Lord?






" but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." - Matt 7:21

Note: was I doing God's will, and expect "to enter into heaven?"





v22 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works?

Note: Do unbelievers prophesy in his name? Can an unbeliever cast out demons?




"Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.

14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.

15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?

16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded." - Acts 19:13 - 16




38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

40 For he that is not against us is on our part. - Mark 9:38-40

(Okay, i quoted you a parallel verse from Luke 9 in my previous post. It sounds the same.)







v23 "And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Note: How can, after doing miracles, and good works for Jesus, yet, he never knew you?

"But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die." - Ezekiel 18:24

(Okay, i quoted the above verse to you in my 2 previous postings as well.)

Note: This was the story of my life. Occult, New ager, alcoholic, drug user, etc. But, I called him Lord. I prayed. Read the bible. Went to church. Did the altar calls.

Accepted him as Lord and savior many of times (Rev 3:20).

But I did "All the abominations that the wicked man doeth", yet shall I stil go to heaven if I died, or hung myself (which I once attempted). Yet, I called him Lord. I would have to face God after I die.....


"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" - Hebrews 9:27


Note: Than I would see Jesus and say," Lord, Lord, It is I Miho. I preached in your name. Did many wonderful works in your name, let me into your kingdom that you made, and you died a horrible death for the punishment for the ugliness for sins". Come on Jesus, once saved always saved right? I cannot lose my salvation right Lord, everyone is preaching it, so it must be true, even though your word says otherwise, but hey, they seem sincere".

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Good nite

Hello penguin, i know it's youuuuu!!!! Hi hi hi hi!





Ahh, yes......Speaking in tongues......tempest in a teapot. Pls carry on.......




Hi, hope this site encourages you :

http://singleunexpectedly.blogspot.com/sea...20the%20Married

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Hello GirlOnaMission,

apart from tongues, are prophesies & healings regular occurrences in your church?

Hi, r u a believer too?

Hi penguin sylar111,

Thx for your reply bro.

I used to question speaking in tongues, obsession with the PERFECT bible translation, manifestations, & lots of other stuff.

But not anymore! Those things i now consider mere semantics & Bibliolatry.

After almost 4 decades as a believer, I was given the baptism of the Holy Spirit only last year.

The H.S. came upon me so strongly that i couldn't stop the words rolling off my tongue! Truly God is amazing & is worthy of all praise!

I will never dare put God in a box again.

I've been officially salted by fire!

I now hear the voice of God literally speaking to me when i wait upon the Lord.

So i just want to put in bullet form to make it easy for you :

- The Bible is NOT the Word of GOD!
- The Bible is called the letter & scripture. Never is it referred to as the Word of GOD! 2 Corinthians 3:6, etc
- The Word of GOD is what you rcv, when you go & wait in prayer for Him.
Hebrews 4:12, etc
- We need Rhema.
- God is Spirit. The Spirit teaches us on an individual basis.
- The Bible just testifies about God.
- Knowing the Bible from cover to cover & being able to debate eloquently on doctrines don't mean a thing.
- Christians who fail to overcome in this life, do not get eternal life. Luke 9:62, 1 Peter 1:15-16

So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom 10:17

If the Word of God is the Bible, then all the early Christians had no faith, because the Bible wasn't printed until 1516.

Listen to my words does not mean listen to someone reading the Bible, it is listening to his live, Spirit words.

Words from the Bible are without spirit and are not directed at your exact condition and need.

When the Spirit of God speaks to us, it speaks to our exact condition and exactly what we need to know.

This is how we seek God. We seek to hear His voice and then treasure what we hear, and obey what he tells us to do.

To abide in Him and be taught by Him, you must listen.

To listen you must be quiet, not forming thoughts, not talking, not reading the Bible.

Some extremists have stretched 'sufficient' beyond all sense by claiming that the Bible is sufficient for the entire shaping of one's life. They claim that what isn't there doesn't belong in a Christian's life. Get real. The Scriptures only directly covers a small part of life's doings.

& like you, i probably agree that there are a lot in the fellowship thread who are not saved. They just 'think' that they're saved.

Anyway, I just pray that your journey in the Christian walk continues from strength to strength.

I hope to see you on the other side one day bro.

The cross has spoken, I am forgiven

The King of kings calls me His own

Beautiful Savior, I'm Yours forever

Jesus Christ, my living hope


Hallelujah! praise the One who set me free!

Hallelujah! death has lost its grip on me!

You have broken every chain

There's salvation in Your name

Jesus Christ, my living hope!!

Jesus Christ, my living hope!!

Oh God, You are my living hope!!!!

tra la la la¬¬¬



Sing to him, sing praise to him; tell of all his wonderful acts. - Psalm 105:2

God here and now, be lifted high

Right here and now, be glorified

God of Heaven and Earth

God who brought me back to life

I am Yours, forever Yours!!!!!

If you are preaching or teaching religion before being perfected and specifically authorized, sent, and ordered the exact words to speak by Christ, to progress spiritually, you must stop.

Every word you preach or teach, that is not heard from the Spirit immediately before speaking, puts condemnation on you, and until perfected and authorized, your teachings will not be true.

From the Word of the Lord within:

"When you speak words from yourself, it doesn't matter what you say; you say them with the wrong spirit, and they don't reach the heart of your listeners.

A word spoken from the Spirit requires you to hear what the Spirit says to you; speak only what you are told to speak.

All and only words from Him are to be spoken; the purpose is to prevent anyone from going out without authority, which you can see creates problems."

However true your words are, unless they are spoken with His Spirit in control of your mouth, your words do not reach the heart of your listeners; such words are idle (non-edifying), and we shall give an account for all non-edifying words that come out of our mouth.

Don't even talk about God or Christ until authorized by Him.

Shalom

sweet Merry mother of goth holey BATMAN!!! this thread is being overrun by RCCs

To Roman Catholic

i was reading an e-book from my collection & by the grace of God, happened to find this little gem collecting dust.

Pls view attch. Only 20 pgs. A short read.

Blessings!

 The_Baptism_with_the_Holy_Spirit.pdf ( 79.48k ) Number of downloads: 23