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 LYN Christian Fellowship V14 (Group)

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yeeck
post Sep 12 2019, 04:16 PM

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QUOTE(thomasthai @ Sep 11 2019, 03:55 PM)
Of course not. If you look a few pages there, I said that the 10 commandments is God's holy moral standard for all people and all time.

But in terms of the gospel, no, you are not saved by keeping the law.

The jews thought that they were saved by being Abraham's descendants and keeping all the law. In fact, they developed their own system of law.
The congregation, by the guidelines given in Timothy and Titus.
Protestants (or more specifically, the Reformed churches) believe that presbuteros, episkopos, shepherd(pastor from latin pasteur) are all interchangable.

Their duties of overseeing the church and teaching and preaching more or less overlaps.

We see that scriptures have given complete guidelines so that the church will never be without leaders.

One question back to you, what happens to the catholic church if all the pope and bishops died at the same time? How is the authority passed down?
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Are you saved if you only believe but don't live according to your faith? That's where even Protestants disagree among themselves.

"Protestants (or more specifically, the Reformed churches) believe that presbuteros, episkopos, shepherd(pastor from latin pasteur) are all interchangable." presbyteros and episkopos are definitely different. That's not even in accord with what the older Christian churches (older than Protestantism) believes in (e.g. the Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox).

Your last question is a theoretical one but Catholics will see as never happening in their lifetime unless it is the end of the world and Christ returns wink.gif.
yeeck
post Sep 12 2019, 04:44 PM

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QUOTE(prophetjul @ Sep 12 2019, 04:35 PM)
Actually I am not harping on works. Feels like works to you is a dirty word. The problem is that you were taught Faith vs Works thing.
That is a wrongful way to look at faith.

Faith or Aman in Hebrew depicts the need for action/works. Without which James calls it fake. He describes that even devils have faith. Strange?

No. Because the faith as understood by the Jews is Faith and works are binary not separated as depicted by Luther.
There is no Sola Fide in the Jewish perspective of Aman.

How can we be unconscious of faith works when we are taught to obey God?
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prophetjul is closer to Catholic teaching on this compared to UW. smile.gif
yeeck
post Sep 12 2019, 05:29 PM

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QUOTE(prophetjul @ Sep 12 2019, 04:46 PM)
I am closer to Jewish understanding of Faith/Aman, not Roman Catholic teachings on works.  laugh.gif
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The RCC does not teach that works itself saves.
yeeck
post Sep 12 2019, 09:12 PM

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QUOTE(prophetjul @ Sep 12 2019, 06:02 PM)
i do not mean works itself either, but obedience to God's commands. Which RCC seem to be very lacking.
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Well God told His apostles, "he who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me". Thus apostolic succession is a very important, something lacking in Protestantism.
yeeck
post Sep 12 2019, 09:28 PM

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QUOTE(thomasthai @ Sep 12 2019, 07:23 PM)
RCC's soteriology is a lot more complex.

Let me try to break it down.

1) A person is saved by grace through faith in Christ.

2) God infuses justification (by imparted grace) to that person (as opposed to protestant's imputed righteousness). That means that person actually has to contribute to his righteousness (maybe 50 from God and 50 from himself, etc., while we believe that we are 100% righteous by the merits of Christ.

In other words, justification and sanctification is two different things, whereas for a protestant, we believe when God justifies, He sanctifies too.

3) But that person, if he commits a mortal sin, can fall from salvific grace.

This is when confession, veneration, sacraments come in. From here, he has to earn his way back in good standing with God.

But by my judgement, at the very core, it is still mostly a works based salvation.
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You are correct for the first 2 parts. However you and other Calvinists forget are that humans are not robots. We have something called free will. We have to cooperate with the graces necessary for salvation which God will certainly give to those who ask Him. A mortal sin is a deliberate rejection of God. What did the scriptures say when one has fallen from grace? See the life of King David, the parable of the pharisee and the publican and you will get your answer.
yeeck
post Sep 12 2019, 09:48 PM

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QUOTE(thomasthai @ Sep 12 2019, 09:42 PM)
This is always the objection for Calvinism, we are not robots and we have free will.

Calvin in fact, did not deny free will. In his work the institutes of the christian life he said that.

The problem is this, left to ourselves and our own free will, we are all headed to hell.

Without the intervention and regeneration by God, we will never come to faith in the Lord.
We were all dead in sin, and it is God who made us alive (regeneration). Can a dead man raise himself? No!

The total depravity of men is so clear here I don't understand how people can understand it any other way.
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That's why only the graces given by God can nudge that person back to life. This could be repeated admonitions and good advice from our pastors, our parents, etc, but if we are too proud to even accept those graces, to confess our fault, and receive the sacraments which are fountains of grace from Christ Himself, then we have no one to blame but ourselves if we are damned, not because God predestined us to be damned. Even Judas could be saved if he like Peter, repented and seeked His forgiveness instead of adding on to his sins by taking his ow life.
yeeck
post Sep 12 2019, 10:03 PM

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QUOTE(yaokb @ Sep 12 2019, 09:31 PM)
16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

Luke 10: 16-17

out of context.

Jesus was not only speaking to his 12 disciples but to the 70 He sent out.
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It doesn't matter, the 70 were bishops or deacons of the early Church anyway. He told that to the 70 to prepare the cities He would visit. In other parts of Scripture, the 12 apostles were Christ's closest collaborators and it was Peter who was the head the apostles.

To make sure that the apostles’ teachings would be passed down after the deaths of the apostles, Paul told Timothy, “[W]hat you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also” (2 Tim. 2:2). In this passage he refers to the first three generations of apostolic succession—his own generation, Timothy’s generation, and the generation Timothy will teach.

We know that Christ established His Church and called the Apostles, devoting three years to their training. These Apostles He appointed as constitutional officials in His Church, giving them the threefold power to teach, rule and sanctify others in His name. But it is to be noted that He commissioned them, as the appointed officials of His Church, to "teach all nations" and promised to be with them "all days till the end of the world." Now it is clear that the Apostles themselves could not "teach all nations;" nor could they personally live "all days till the end of the world." Yet the Church had to continue, and with the constitution Christ had given it. It follows that the power and the authority of the Apostles must have been transmitted to their official successors. For evidence that this did happen we can scarcely look to the New Testament itself, which was written whilst the Apostles were still alive; but documents from the earliest days of the Church record the fact. Thus St. Clement of Rome, writing before the end of the 1st century, tells us that the Apostles appointed others to succeed them St. Clement knew the Apostles personally, and is himself mentioned by name in the New Testament, Philip, IV, 3. In the 2nd century St Irenaeus in his controversy with the Gnostics who claimed to possess secret doctrines derived from the Apostles, pointed out the publicly known succession of the Bishops in the Church from the Apostles, enumerating particularly the Bishops of Rome as successors of St. Peter, and declaring that no authority could belong to the teachings of those not in union with these official successors of the Apostles.
yeeck
post Sep 13 2019, 11:09 AM

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QUOTE(yaokb @ Sep 12 2019, 11:01 PM)
It seems to be a far reach by any measure to label the 70 as anything other than disciples. Deacons were named so only in the book of Acts and bishops did not appear until churches were established by Paul all over the gentile world. OK i admit it may be  semantics, but to base a teaching on a scripture taken out of context, matters, doesn't it?

And as for Clements, even Catholic scholars themselves doubt that the Clements mentioned in Philippians 4:3 is the St Clements you refer to.
source : http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04012c.htm

I am not Catholic but it does seem to me that a lot of the RCC teachings are based on traditions and customs rather than scripture.

Doesn't that make you uncomfortable?
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Absolutely not, Tradition came first before the NT was written down. Tradition and the beliefs of the early Christians interprets Scripture, not the new interpretations by Protestants that came more than 1500 years later. On what basis do you accept Scripture alone? Does scripture interprets itself? If yes, how does that explain the myriad interpretations causing the sprouting of sects like mushrooms as time goes by?

This post has been edited by yeeck: Sep 13 2019, 11:10 AM
yeeck
post Sep 13 2019, 06:14 PM

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QUOTE(prophetjul @ Sep 13 2019, 11:38 AM)
Does scripture interpret scripture?  YES
Jesus always did that in the Gospels.

The tradition that you refer to, is Jewish traditions, not Roman. RCC is based on pagan Roman traditions.
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Absolutely not. Even each and every Protestant group has their own 'tradition' to interpret Scripture, e.g. of Penance, the Eucharist, salvation by faith, “independence” or Bible-only. When a Baptist reads of baptism in the NT, they automatically interpret it as being adult baptism. When a Methodist reads of the Church in scripture, they interpret it as the entire believing community. They may use different parts of Scripture to allude to their interpretation, but not all of Scripture, and certainly not in harmony with the early Christians.

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