I rest my case that at the end of the day, when you fall short, you still appeal to Christ as your Saviour ie appealing to God's grace as the key to Salvation. not your works.

I've never disputed that Faith and Works goes hand in hand. I only dispute that works is the justification to Salvation. You never did understand that as well the rest who always disagree with me.

Whether you have done enough works or lack of it, at the end of the day you still appeal to Christ as the key to Salvation (For me the Bible has always highlighted has always been the Finish work of Christ at the cross which God accepts as the justification to Salvation)

Because if you say otherwise, why appeal to Christ for your short comings or your failure to adhere to God's command?

Do you see what I've been trying to tell you all along? Think about it.

So lets just cut this very direct.

Are you saying your works is one of the justification to Salvation.

Yes or No?

Erm, if you claim to understand better than I do, then you should know.

Yes or No? It is really that simple.

No it's not, you just refuse to answer.

Yes? No? Maybe? I don't know. <---there's nothing outside of these options.

You said

"I am saying FAITH in Jesus leads to the kingdom and ultimately heaven, which you like"

I didn't see the word works in there, am I correct?

So just to confirm one more time, does

1. Faith in Christ alone qualify to kingdom and ultimate heaven or

2. Faith + Works both needed to qualify to kingdom and ultimately Heaven?


1 or 2?

So I guess answer is No.2 then. Yes?

While I can agree what you're tying to imply, this Faith + Work is not really a straight forward answer but it can be.

No where in the book of James 2 teaches us that dead works leads to disqualification to heaven.

it teaches us that it leads to the phrase worthless or unprofitable, KJV uses the word dead. Meaning unprofitable Christian lives or defeated life vs a victorious one.

The difference is in there.

Else to say Works is require for Salvation would make Ephesians 2:8-9 to be not true.

For the phrase in verse 10 of the same chapter

10.For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.

tell us we are indeed created to do good works, we are designed for it and yet doesn't mean lack of it disqualify us to Salvation.

Of course I'm talking about the end result and no where did I suggest Faith is not in the living now.
We need to establish correctly how you get Salvation which is by faith in Christ and by God's Grace which is the Gospel at the core because if we don't, the rest will be faulty. That is why knowing the consequence is important. The bible says those who have this hope, purifies himself. (1 John 3:3)

You're just too negative of your view of what I say and what I believe in, that is the problem.

That leads You to always think I'm always suggesting disobedience or suggest licentious lifestyle.

Haih prophetjul.

So that settles it, What you're talking is what I'm talking.

I've always strongly preach that Faith in Christ is what saves us, not works. So whether you have enough work, lack of it, fallen short, at the end of the day we ALL still appeal to Christ,
NEVER our works. With that being said.......

The works or the fruits are the work of God so we should not preach Me Me Me I I I need to do this or that, We need to preach God, IE CHRIST because only God is able to change the person. Else we can't really work out our Salvation. There is no way.

The focus of this has been WRONG all the while. We keep preaching you must repent, YOU must work, YOU must show fruit..when we should be preaching Look to Christ the person who IS GRACE that is the root and power of life so that repentance can come. That is the Gospel IMO.



This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Sep 14 2019, 09:46 AM

You'll be surprise to hear me say this.

It is not our business to insist on a person, his or her fruits must manifest, given time. Why?

Because that is God's work ( In essence we are also demanding unto God. Think about it) and it causes us to judge the person.

What if the person professes Faith but choose not to repent? Then I'll say the person have never really understood what Christianity is all about.