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 LYN Christian Fellowship V14 (Group)

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thomasthai
post Sep 4 2019, 12:13 PM

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QUOTE(TheRant @ Sep 4 2019, 11:41 AM)
I take back what I said.

However the other part stands.

Funny that you cannot do that.

But then when you find fault on me, you seem harsh but then when it's the other way round, it suddenly become a serious accusation right?

So why dun you do us all a favour and answer the other part then.
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I affirm all the 5 solas of the Reformation.
Sola Scriptura
Sola Gratia
Sola fide
Sola Christus
Soli Deo Gloria

Scripture is the sole source of authority for Christian faith and practice.

Look, if I have called you something nasty in the past, please forgive me.

Let's just agree to disagree.

thomasthai
post Sep 4 2019, 12:45 PM

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QUOTE(TheRant @ Sep 4 2019, 12:16 PM)
Unfortunately you do not practice that in this thread.

And what do you mean by scripture is the sole source of authority?

Which scripture?

The NIV? ESV, KJB

Which differs from each other?

How can they be equally authoritative if they differ from each other?
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You and your KJV obsession.

There are no original letters written by the new testament writers left today. So who determines which manuscript is the best preserved? There are close to 6000 greek texts out there and they are all different.

This is a fact.

You would be presumptious if you say that God protected only 1 out of the 6000 and that one made it to the KJV.

Even the KJV was was the product of multiple manuscripts.

There are no major doctrinal differences in the greek manuscripts.

I honestly think you are too obsessed with finding the best manuscript.
thomasthai
post Sep 4 2019, 12:55 PM

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QUOTE(azriqii @ Sep 4 2019, 12:51 PM)
Why are we arguing different version of Bible now?
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As you can see, we are all human.
thomasthai
post Sep 4 2019, 01:17 PM

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QUOTE(TheRant @ Sep 4 2019, 01:10 PM)
I never asserted that kjb is not a product of multiple manuscripts in fact it emphasize the truth in the kjb. Because they could have easily used a single manuscript to translate but then the fact is, thru have to use multiple manuscripts because the translators realize that the truth is not found in just the texts receptus itself.

You just admitted that you do not believe in the scriptures BTW. So why pretend?
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Can you briefly outline any doctrinal differences if let's say I use the KJV and the ESV bible?

If you can't give any examples, then you are talking nonsense.
thomasthai
post Sep 4 2019, 01:34 PM

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QUOTE(TheRant @ Sep 4 2019, 01:25 PM)
It's not difficult to find. In fact didn't you did that a while back by trying to prove the 'imperfection" of the kjb? If you want to find its so easy. There's going Google right

BTW. No time to entertain you. The way you speak in the previous post is actually similar to how atheist discredits the Bible. I know it's going to be a Merry go round whereby once you are proven wrong,  you just disappear.
I believe I have already PMed you etc and if you dun get it,  maybe heaven is not meant for you.
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Again, you are talking nonsense.

I've seen the KJV onlyist's list of variant readings. No doctrine was built on one word or one verse alone.

You can have many variant readings but the same understanding.

All the translations (kjv, esv, nasb) preserved the message of salvation.
thomasthai
post Sep 5 2019, 06:00 AM

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QUOTE(TheRant @ Sep 4 2019, 03:47 PM)
I guess you probably think just a mere confession of Christ save. No matter what version of Christ that person believes in. So my question now is, is say you profess in the Islamic version of Christ and repent, will you get saved?

Before we continue, we should make things clear right?

But you probably do not have the material and guts to continue on right?
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Then show everybody here how is the Christ in NASB, ESV different from the Christ of the KJV.

Show us how the words and verses can lead to false Christ and ultimately no salvation?

You can't because no doctrines were formed from a single word or verse.

The other important principle from the Reformation is this: scriptura es sui interpres, which means the scripture explains scripture in latin. (scripture is its own interpreter)

Even if someone tries to alter a part of scripture, other parts will contradict and correct it.

Even if scribes try to change the whole new testament, the old testament can be a witness against that. The old testament is the new concealed, and the new is the old revealed. There's no way scribes can muck up the new testament without any external witness.

I believe this is how God preserved His word.

You believe that in order for God to preserve His word, He has to divinely and mechanically control all the scribes again and again to that no one makes any mistake in copying scriptures, which I find that will be very hard to prove because ultimately, the original autograph is gone.

But whatever, you can believe what you want.

This post has been edited by thomasthai: Sep 5 2019, 06:21 AM
thomasthai
post Sep 5 2019, 08:45 AM

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QUOTE(prophetjul @ Sep 5 2019, 08:32 AM)
Actually scripture interpret scripture is rather Jewish.

I see the main problem of interpreting scriptures is this.
Most of us are not literate in the original language of the scriptures.
We are not conversant with the Jewish culture with all pictorial alphabets, its idioms and figures of speech.
We either mis interpret, reinterpret into the translations, miss out all together in its intent, etc.

Origen, when he was forming the LXX tried to change the OT to be inclusive of Paul's writings, not knowing that the Jewish rabbis likes to take a bit of verses from the OT to from their argument. He thought that Paul used whole passages in his thesis. So he rewrote the whole passage from the NT into the OT!  laugh.gif
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Speaking of this, the issue of baptism comes to mind.

People always question why are the Presbyterians so stubborn to not do immersion baptism.

If you do a greek lexicon study of the word baptism and how it was used by people in those days, you will come to a conclusion that baptism is by immersion.

But if you study the original Hebrew rendering of baptism from the OT, you will find the baptism can mean wash, submerge, dip, sprinkle.

Amd then you find 1st century Christian art where they drew people in the river with, with water pouring over their heads, you will understand why Presbyterians insist on sprinkling.

thomasthai
post Sep 5 2019, 08:53 AM

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QUOTE(TheRant @ Sep 5 2019, 08:37 AM)
Haha. You really sure can change definitions as you go along right?  In the past,  people still have integrity to ensure that even if the verses differs there will be questions. It's not just a change in the wordings.  It's a change in the entire meaning. But it's OK.  You want to pretend right?

There is a definite change in the doctrines and it's easy for you to find out. I think you dun need me to spoonfeed you right?  But even if there is not,  them if it is all about doctrines,  then write the doctrines down instead of reading the Bible then. You are already undermining God by your very own challenge.

Do you think I have so much time to spoon feed you?  You are already acting like a certain person here and I an sure you will come to the same conclusion as him one day which will then confirm your condemnation. Different spots but the same leapord.

Can see that you are already sweating like the narcissist you are.  Based on your statements,  why were you attacking the kjb then? Also,  you know that entire passages were removed from the kjb.

That's the thing. You never had any integrity and you will be judge for that one day.
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The irony here is clear for everyone to see.

The one claiming to be the only true Christian, while everyone else who uses a different bible translation is a heretic and going to hell, condemns, insults, slanders and name calling.

When asked to provide proper arguments, scolds others for wanting to be spoonfed, and presumes everyone knows what he is talking about.

You are a disgrace to the Lord Jesus Christ.
thomasthai
post Sep 5 2019, 11:30 AM

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QUOTE(TheRant @ Sep 5 2019, 11:10 AM)
To be honest, looking at the way you write. You do not really have any conscience. That's a characteristic of someone who is on the way to hell.

Funny you never address the actual accusation against you but then just pretend it never happens. That is how Heretics behave by the way.

Of course you know what I am talking about but then pretend you dunno. Is this the first time we have our exchanges. And everytime you just run away when you have nothing to say.

And you assume that I actually read the ESV. Why should I read the ESV when I know it's corrupted.

If you want to find the answers to your question. just type into google esv corrupted. Is it so hard?

And this is the website that i found upon typing. But even after "spoon feeding" you you still cannot see. Well that is because you are blind.

https://www.scionofzion.com/esv_exposed.htm

In fact, I do not even need to search this website for you. You have already condemned yourself by making the statement that since doctrines are the same why argue?

But the Bible Itself says that every word are pure words. You even contradict the Bible by your very words.

Of course. Now you will change the definition to say that those are not main doctrines. The irony is, the doctrines that I believe in is not the same as the doctrines you believe in. So who are you to define the main doctrines in the first place. You are not very smart are you.

Anyway it's getting tiring replying to you. I am pretty sure if you actually die right now, the next thing you will see is the great white throne of judgement.

I never said that those who uses the modern versions are lost by the way. But then their attitude towards the KJV is one of the criteria as saved people love the truth. But then with the information that is available right now, if you use the modern version, you are very highly suspect. If you cannot be led to the KJB or other similar versions, then most likely you do not have the Holy Spirit in you.
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So to have the Holy Spirit in you is to be lead to the KJV bible?

Is that doctrine drawn from the KJV bible? rolleyes.gif

I suspected it all along. KJV onlyer is a bibliomancy cult.
thomasthai
post Sep 5 2019, 12:44 PM

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QUOTE(TheRant @ Sep 5 2019, 11:54 AM)
So tell me where is the perfect Bible then.

Because the Bible says very clearly that God will preserve His words. So where is the Perfect Bible then.

The Holy Spirit will eventually lead you to the word of God. Unless you say that the word of God is not perfect. And to me the KJV is perfect. Of course there are other perfect Bible in other languages and also may be in English as well. But then this is none of my concern because my primary language is in English.

I never claim that the KJV is the only perfect word of God.  That is why I mentioned similar versions. You can have other versions in other languages or even English that matches the KJV. And they are perfectly fine to be used. It's just simple logic. If say you have A and B. If A is perfect, in order for B to be perfect it has to match A. It's not rocket science. I mean you actually want to debate me with that kind of comprehension skills you have? That is why our conversations has always been around circles and you just conveniently runaway once you got caught with your pants down.

I can tell that you are getting desperate right now. Looking at your comprehension skills etc.

You can shout anyhow you want. You probably know in your heart where you actually belong to.

You see, I do not follow a man like you do. And yet you say that I am in a cult. Actually to be frank. Your behavior is pretty cultish not mine.

Technically you are the one who is cult like because you are only repeating what is being told to you. You do not have the ability to think for yourself.

Actually I shared a verse and I would probably shared it with you.

I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

But then since you are already righteous, you probably do not need Jesus right?
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I have asked you many times, since all the autographs are lost, how do you determine that the KJV is the perfect rendition of God's word?

All i get is circular reasoning and round and round condemnation.

Did God tell you that the KJV is perfect?

From the KJVO arguments, I always see them argue along the lines like "God should do this, that's why there's this, and God won't do this because this and this"

Always presumptious about God.
thomasthai
post Sep 5 2019, 01:29 PM

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QUOTE(TheRant @ Sep 5 2019, 01:07 PM)
And yet you have not answered my question.  Where is the perfect bible.

Haha circular reasoning. I thought you are the expert in that.

Why dun you be honest and just say you dun believe God preserve His words. We can continue after you admit to that.

And you even lied by saying you ask me many times.

Do you even have a brain?  You think everyone is as stupid as you?

Liars go to hell do you understand?
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God preserved His word by the transmission of all the manuscripts so nobody can claim that only they know what God said.

The 6000 greek and 25000 coptic/syriac/gothic manuscripts are all His word.

The variants are minor and don't reflect any change in meanings and doctrines.

Now you tell me, how do you determine that the KJV is the closest to the original when you don't have the original?

I'm sick to death talking to you.

It seems like when God said He will preserve His word, the KJVO people presumed that there will be a leather-bound, burgundy colour KJV bible dropping from the sky.

This post has been edited by thomasthai: Sep 5 2019, 01:52 PM
thomasthai
post Sep 9 2019, 09:20 AM

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QUOTE(TheRant @ Sep 5 2019, 02:15 PM)
Funny. How come you dun think I am sick to death. In fact talking to you is talking to death itself.

Wow. You just change the definition of preservation just like the heretics does. Do you realize that a muslin can also claim the same thing?  Saying that God preserve his words through all the manuscript out there is an insult to His integrity. It's like me telling you hey I have all the information. But the information is distributed among all the books in the library. But then you probably do not even understand what integrity means because you are on your way to hell.

I have already said why I believe that the kjb is God's preserved words. Looking at the fruits it produce so far and also the fact that I believe God preserves His words. Even when I was naive to think that the other Bible contains God's word the moment I saw a, contradiction when there is a comparison of the niv and the kjv,  I know which one to trust immediately.  Most Christians actually somehow feel that the kjb is a better version and more accurate but because they are lazy and think that the kjb is harder to read despite evidence on the contrary. As I implied earlier,  the Holy Ghost will lead you towards the Truth and if you are insensitive. You probably dun have the Holy Ghost in you. Of course as I said. The modern version diminish the deity of Jesus. And they remove key verses. Of course the fact that I "found" the kjb just like I found Chrisy.

The verse my sheep hears my voice come into picture. You dun hear because you do not belong to Christ. Remember Jesus is the Word of God.  So the same applies to God's word as well.

Based on what you say,  I could also ask you how sure you think that Christianity is the right religion when there are thousands out there.  Every of your words are a contradiction and yet you still think you are saved.

So no point debating anymore. I know where your destination is.  You will probably find out after your death. But of course your destination might change if a miracle happen.  But as I implied,  the probability of that happening is very low.

You can defend yourself as much as possible.  But then ultimately you are not answerable to me but to God.
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Bottom line is, God told you that the KJV is the one He preserved?

Ok, you win.
thomasthai
post Sep 10 2019, 12:38 PM

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QUOTE(yeeck @ Sep 10 2019, 11:53 AM)
The Catholic Church affirms the existence of a common or universal priesthood of all the baptized laity. But this does not exclude the existence of a ministerial priesthood. In the OT book of Exodus for example, just a few verses after the Israelites are called a “kingdom of priests,” one discovers a distinct order of men who are considered priests apart from the people. In the NT, Jesus continued the role of the ministerial priesthood by giving authority to His apostles and their successors to forgive sins and to offer sacrifice (no longer the animal sacrifices as in the old but of the new sacrifice "do this in remembrance of Me".

Having images in churches is not the same as idolatry as shown many times before.
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From scriptures, we understand that the Levitical priesthood is is a shadow of the ultimate Priesthood of Christ. (Hebrews 7-8)

They were signs pointing to Christ, not something to be passed down.

In fact, the whole book of Hebrews was written to tell the Jews to stop hanging on to the law and traditions.

QUOTE
For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Hebrews 8:4‭-‬6 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/heb.8.4-6.NKJV


Following the pattern of Acts, Tim and Titus, we see that the church is to be ruled by presbuteros and diakonos, elders and deacons.

Nothing like the priesthood catholics understand it to be.

This post has been edited by thomasthai: Sep 10 2019, 12:47 PM
thomasthai
post Sep 11 2019, 04:45 AM

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QUOTE(TheRant @ Sep 10 2019, 04:42 PM)
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

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So what does this mean?

QUOTE
    Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
1 Timothy 5:17 KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/1ti.5.17.KJV 



thomasthai
post Sep 11 2019, 03:55 PM

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QUOTE(yeeck @ Sep 11 2019, 12:05 PM)
It is the old ceremonial laws which points to the fulfilment of Christ's sacrifice and institution of the New Testament which are no longer to be observed, not the moral laws such as the 10 Commandments. Are you like UW saying that even the 10 Commandments no longer applies?

Of course not. If you look a few pages there, I said that the 10 commandments is God's holy moral standard for all people and all time.

But in terms of the gospel, no, you are not saved by keeping the law.

The jews thought that they were saved by being Abraham's descendants and keeping all the law. In fact, they developed their own system of law.

QUOTE
Thank you for showing that scripture has presbyteros, diakonos. Question. Who ordained them?

The congregation, by the guidelines given in Timothy and Titus.

QUOTE
The earliest organization of the Church in Jerusalem was according to most scholars similar to that of Jewish synagogues, but it had a council or college of ordained presbyters (Greek: πρεσβύτεροι elders[8]). In Acts 11:30[9] and Acts 15:22, we see a collegiate system of government in Jerusalem though headed by James, according to tradition the first bishop of the city. In Acts 14:23, the Apostle Paul ordains presbyters in the churches he founded.

The term presbyter was often not yet clearly distinguished from the term overseer (ἐπίσκοποι episkopoi, later exclusively used as meaning bishop), as in Acts 20:17, Titus 1:5–7[10] and 1 Peter 5:1.[11][12][13] The earliest writings of the Apostolic Fathers, the Didache and the First Epistle of Clement for example, show the church used two terms for local church offices—presbyters (seen by many as an interchangeable term with episcopos or overseer) and deacon.

In Timothy and Titus in the New Testament a more clearly defined episcopate can be seen. We are told that Paul had left Timothy in Ephesus and Titus in Crete to oversee the local church (1Tim 1:3 and Titus 1:5). Paul commands them to ordain presbyters/bishops and to exercise general oversight, telling Titus to "rebuke with all authority" (Titus 2:15).

That to me is more synonymous with Catholic teaching that authority is passed down from the Christ to the apostles downwards to whomever they ordain, aka distinct roles, rather than the Protestant concept.
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Protestants (or more specifically, the Reformed churches) believe that presbuteros, episkopos, shepherd(pastor from latin pasteur) are all interchangable.

Their duties of overseeing the church and teaching and preaching more or less overlaps.

We see that scriptures have given complete guidelines so that the church will never be without leaders.

One question back to you, what happens to the catholic church if all the pope and bishops died at the same time? How is the authority passed down?
thomasthai
post Sep 11 2019, 03:58 PM

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QUOTE(TheRant @ Sep 11 2019, 12:39 PM)
Ok you got me there. Thanks for using the KJB though

But then how do you consider 1 Peter 5:2-3
2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock.

The thing is, it also depends on your definition of rule.

Of course by "comparing scripture with scripture" (You probably know why I put the inverted commas there)

rule can be compared with oversight.

oversight is more like a managerial kind of authority.  But at the same time, it's not really a dictatorial type if you know what i mean.

So it really depends on what context you define rule. Of course I do not deny that Pastors and Elders should have authority. But then it's not the dictatorial kind if you know what I mean.
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Of course I know what you mean. I didn't mean that kind of ruling too.


thomasthai
post Sep 11 2019, 04:02 PM

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QUOTE(TheRant @ Sep 11 2019, 12:20 PM)
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

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Thanks, I think laugh.gif

The message, passion, NLT are all paraphrase bibles, which basically mean some guy sitting in his porch 'thinks' what that verse mean by what it says. Absolutely no translation rules.

I once read a Psalm from the message, can really go bonkers if read too much.

I wouldn't touch them with a 6 foot pole.

This post has been edited by thomasthai: Sep 11 2019, 04:04 PM
thomasthai
post Sep 12 2019, 02:20 PM

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Before we go into another cycle of faith and works, let me say this.

We are not saved by works but by faith, and true faith will always produce good works.

End of story.

biggrin.gif:
thomasthai
post Sep 12 2019, 05:54 PM

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QUOTE(yeeck @ Sep 12 2019, 04:16 PM)
Are you saved if you only believe but don't live according to your faith? That's where even Protestants disagree among themselves.

"Protestants (or more specifically, the Reformed churches) believe that presbuteros, episkopos, shepherd(pastor from latin pasteur) are all interchangable." presbyteros and episkopos are definitely different. That's not even in accord with what the older Christian churches (older than Protestantism) believes in (e.g. the Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox).

Your last question is a theoretical one but Catholics will see as never happening in their lifetime unless it is the end of the world and Christ returns wink.gif.
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This is where I think most people find it very hard to understand, even protestants.

In Reformed theology, we believe that regeneration precedes faith. That means that only the people that God had foreordained to salvation will come to salvific faith in Christ. (Jesus said in John, only those that are permitted by the Father can come to Him)

Faith itself is not generated from our own might, it is the gift of God (Eph 2).

When God gives salvation, it follows that He will also give sanctification.

When I say this to Arminians, I will always get objections and bible verses. So I think I will stop here for now biggrin.gif
thomasthai
post Sep 12 2019, 07:23 PM

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QUOTE(prophetjul @ Sep 12 2019, 06:02 PM)
i do not mean works itself either, but obedience to God's commands. Which RCC seem to be very lacking.
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RCC's soteriology is a lot more complex.

Let me try to break it down.

1) A person is saved by grace through faith in Christ.

2) God infuses justification (by imparted grace) to that person (as opposed to protestant's imputed righteousness). That means that person actually has to contribute to his righteousness (maybe 50 from God and 50 from himself, etc., while we believe that we are 100% righteous by the merits of Christ.

In other words, justification and sanctification is two different things, whereas for a protestant, we believe when God justifies, He sanctifies too.

3) But that person, if he commits a mortal sin, can fall from salvific grace.

This is when confession, veneration, sacraments come in. From here, he has to earn his way back in good standing with God.

But by my judgement, at the very core, it is still mostly a works based salvation.

This post has been edited by thomasthai: Sep 12 2019, 07:29 PM

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