Well because, in your earlier post, you mentioned

"to be Frank hyper grace or easy believism people think you just need to believe to be saved. so far so good right? then they believe any work is not allowed, you only need to believe and receiving."

Implying works is needed to be saved.

Then later you said

"book of james never suggest salavation by work"

So which is which?

Erm, I don't have problem with the Bible, just your unqualified attack, I have a problem with.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 26 2018, 03:50 PM

not only you have problem of selective reading the bible. you have also selective memory


here you are below, doubting the bible in your own word. mind you work complete faith is direct quote from bible



quote


Whether you use the word good works completes Faith or it's "inseparable", in other words, good works is required for Salvation no matter you word it and you know that is how the rationality is.


unquote

No I don't have selective bible reading or selective memoy because I remembered quite vividly...

As I've said works required in the book of James is NOT for the justification of Salvation before God.

But that doesn't put away what you've just said...because according to you Faith In Christ is not enough to Salvation, you hinted more. So what is it? Works or...?

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 26 2018, 08:31 PM

I think both Desmond and UW are quite clear that Salvation comes by Faith alone.

I am just not sure why they are arguing over works.
Each seem to be deliberately misunderstanding the other.

To me, works are a manifestation that our faith is true. We can't help but do good because it is the Holy Spirit at work within us.

From the scripture it is clear to me that the process goes like this.

Hear the Word ROM 10:14
Have faith in the Word ROM 10:17
Saved by that grace that comes through faith. EPH 2:8-9
Transformed by the Holy Spirit through the Word of God 2 Cor 3:18
Bear fruit of the Spirit. (Read your Bible pray every day)
Do works as guided by the Holy Spirit. (ACTS 16:6-10 example of what not to do)
Get rewarded for your works done under guidance of Holy Spirit.(1 Cor 3:12-15)

Well said, Yaokb.

For a simple minded person like me, this is what I see with regard to faith & good works, The Greatest Commandment & the second most important commandment.

Or I could use the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ, about being born of the Spirit & those who does the will of God, only being able to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Or I could also use the life of our Lord Jesus Christ directly as depicted in the Gospel.

All of the above shows that faith leads to good works, so that when others see such good works, they will praise our Father in heaven, for God alone is good indeed.

This post has been edited by Roman Catholic: Jul 27 2018, 02:48 AM

The correct order of salvation is:

Regeneration > faith > good works

Without faith its works salvation, without regeneration theres no faith, without good works theres no genuine faith.

They are all linked, but the order cant be swapped.

We were all spiritually dead before the Spirit regenerated us (eph 1), so regeneration must come first.

Ah, to be simple is good. I will only caution that this simple statement that both salvation is by faith and works has its own depth. Don't just stand on the ice.

The definition of salvation is not only regeneration in the Bible. To argue works over the 1st step of God's salvation is just pointless.

For example, Paul in Rom 5:10 says:

For if we, being enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son (salvation by faith), much more we will be saved in His life, having been reconciled,

There is the "much more" salvation; the FULL salvation - the organic saving by His life.

To bear fruits of the Spirit is to experience salvation. We were created to express God (image - Gen 1:26). But we are fallen and falls short of glory of God (God's expression). So, we experience God's full salvation to be filled with Christ to express Him.

------------------------------------

2nd .... throwing a wrench Are our good works merely ours then?

This post has been edited by pehkay: Jul 27 2018, 07:34 AM

well gents, no one is saying one is save by work. 2hat I actually have problem is hypergrace / prosperity gospel / word of faith. UW typically post a subliminal messaging version of his good friend, Joseph prince prosperity gospel.


example being below. read it with your own eyes


Every time you confess, “I am the righteousness of God in Christ”, God the Father is pleased. When you confess that you are the righteousness of God in Christ, it reminds Him of what His Son has done for you to become righteous.

Also, by making you righteous, God is showing Himself righteous—“to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus”. (Romans 3:26)

Each time Jesus hears you confess, “I am the righteousness of God in Christ,” it brings much pleasure to His heart too, because you are laying hold of what He suffered and died to give you.

The Holy Spirit, who now indwells you to convict you of righteousness (John 16:10), also rejoices when you confess, “I am the righteousness of God in Christ.” He is pleased when you flow with Him.

The delight of the Godhead is not the only thing you gain when you declare, “I am the righteousness of God in Christ.” The Bible tells us that when you “seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness…all these things shall be added to you”. (Matthew 6:33)

Whether it is food, clothing or other necessities in life, “all these things” will be added to you. They will not just be given to you, but added to you as your inheritance when you seek first His righteousness.

You don’t need to use your faith for every single need in life. You just need to use your faith for one thing—to believe that you are the righteousness of God in Christ, and it will cause all the blessings you seek to come after you and overtake you!

© Copyright Joseph Prince, 2008–2018

Morning Fellow Believers;

It's good that we are all discussing this.

I just want to make a couple of points.


In the book of James Chapter 2, when scripture gives the example:

"Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food" It is NO Point to just "wish" the person well. It's hypocritical to just wish well but you don't don't do anything. Why? BECAUSE the brother or sister is in NEED! That is the point. That is what it means Faith without Works is dead.

Another example when it comes to God.

If God tells you to do something and you don't do it...or that when God word promises something to you BUT you don't act like it, Your life, the way you live (for example) when God tells you to be kind and gentle, but you act out your FLESH character of being RUDE, or that God promises to provide or promise to bless you but you don't believe that and go all out to fight your own life by your effort, Your Faith is Dead. Meaning it's not alive. Why? BECAUSE! you don't believe what God says..your inaction basically mean that.

BUT does it mean you will lose your Salvation because you don't act? No where the Lord says in the book of James..If you don't work, You will lose your Salvation.

So to propagate the idea, that your Faith in Christ is not enough to Salvation, it must have the role of your works, you're propagating your own works is needed for Salvation. NO matter you want to rephrase or use whatever words...but that is what you're saying, Jesus being a savior is not enough, you need to be little part of savior too.

HECK to very meaning of Savior means you can't save yourself, hence that title of Savior only befits Jesus and never you or whatever you attempt to do.

That is my point.

God bless guys. Thanks Yaokb.

Actually no matter what you post, whoever preacher you quote; there are many questions I asked you to which you are unable to answer. Or that you ignored.

That tells me you could not refute the matter at hand. If truly, you think you are right, give your answers.

If you can't and all you're capable of is throwing insults and sarcasm that doesn't befit of a Christian, that tells me you don't know enough.

The word regeneration is born again, am I right ?

Hi there,

It sounds right to me..which part is unacceptable?

* I like what was said:

So many times we try to lock ourselves into a "humanized" version of God.

That has lead us to think God is like us humans, the way we think and act. This relates very much to the doctrines we believe. There are some of us who cannot comprehend, God is really that good, it sounds to good to be true...easy believism, etc etc.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 27 2018, 10:01 AM

of course, only UW is right. what more do you want?


you want people to praise your prosperity gospel?

or believe in what your good friend Joseph prince teach?

actually for a guy that believe that only two Jews enter promised land, I shouldn't take you seriously. because you obviously dont know what you are talking about.

It's not the matter of only I'm right, but where is your point? You don't seem to be answering.

I did ask you so many questions...many of them you either ignore or don't seem to be interested to make yourself clear.

Don't blame others of being only right when you yourself aren't trying.

let be Frank, I have no interest in answering your rhetoric question which obvious motive is to mix truth and lie.

who care about you? you think you are the one sitting on the throne on judgment day?

you think too much

You seem to care a lot, hence you should answer.

Yes don't mix truth and lie to correlate if you know or don't know.

Irony of who is sitting on the throne here.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 27 2018, 11:07 AM

go play with your fake preacher friend Joseph prince



you are the bugger who reply to my post first. in actuality I am always not in mood to interact with a fake teacher.


so please spare me your sermon. I had no interest in it. and frankly if you want you should just preach at calvary church.


so dont reply to my post again. I had no interest whatsoever on your opinion.

That's a very bad excuse to use, to cover up for your refusal to make your point clear.

You are not following Biblical principles.

First of all, you are no where near qualified to judge anyone to be a fake teacher. Be it me or anyone.

Second, you go against the principle of judging others.

Third, Titus 3:2 says "to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and always to be gentle toward everyone."

If you want to be that rude, can I equally say, you are not following Christ based on these 3 premises?


* The Irony of Faith without works is dead.....
** The Irony of "you are the one sitting on the throne on judgment day?". Double
*** Afraid of drilling down the crude details (Afraid that what was shared could be right), shows unwillingness to learn then use excuses to cover up.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 27 2018, 11:46 AM

Hi again, I presume you're a Christian so my perspective below is from Christian perspective.

That is because God isn't Human. He is God, And as how you said it, "we expect", God to act the way we expect, thinking from humanize perspective. That God should at least respond asap when we expect Him to.

Yes it's hard, when you needed to hear from God and He is silent. I went through that phase and my advise is for you to be patience, to labor to enter into peace. Why? Because God speaks the loudest when we are at peace.

Hebrews 4:11 (NIV) - Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

I know it's an oxymoron situation. How to be at peace when you're troubled and YET the Bible tells us...to labor or strive for it. For a good reason, so that we can connect to God soonest and hear from Him.

You need to know this: Sometime the predicament that we go through is not because of God but because of the Enemy's attack and sometime it can be our own fault. God is sovereign and never make mistakes hence the fault usually lies with us.

Hope that helps and hope I can learn better what's troubling you.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 27 2018, 01:45 PM

No, if Abraham just believed without acting, Ishamael would not have been born. And because Abraham added work to his faith (by sleeping with Hagar), which was a mistake, the Arabs were born.

When we think that faith demands action, we start to plan action that we consider or reason it as good to God. This is not necessarily true. What we consider as good work might not be considered good by God. Eve thought that eating the fruit of knowledge was good, but her reasoning was flawed, and so does all of us who thought we know what is considered good work.

This post has been edited by Haledoch: Jul 27 2018, 03:09 PM