Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Bump Topic Topic Closed RSS Feed
139 Pages « < 124 125 126 127 128 > » Bottom

Outline · [ Standard ] · Linear+

> Military Thread V26

views
     
MilitaryMadness
post May 23 2019, 03:31 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,302 posts

Joined: Oct 2010
From: Over your shoulder


Damen lays down keel for South African Navy's first Multi Mission Inshore Patrol Vessel (MMIPV)

user posted image

On February 23, Damen Shipyards Cape Town (DSCT) has ceremonially laid the keel for the South African Navy’s first of class Multi Mission Inshore Patrol Vessel (MMIPV) at its shipyard in the Port of Cape Town.

As explained by Chief of the South African Navy Vice-Admiral Mosiwa Hlongwane, a keel laying ceremony is an important tradition for any shipyard. It is naval tradition that every ship constructed for service be honoured on four historical ceremonial occasions, being: the keel laying; the christening (or launching); the commissioning; and decommissioning.

Although most ships are constructed using a modular system that does not include a traditional keel, the keel laying ceremony is still an important part of the construction process. Traditionally, the ceremony is meant to invite good luck during the construction of the ship and continued good fortune throughout the life of the vessel, whereby a commemorative coin is placed into the area of the keel and welded into place. The event in a modern sense celebrates the first milestone of a ship’s construction.

As a reminder, the acquisition of the MMIPV under the R1.5 billion Project Biro was approved in October 2017. The new vessel, P1571, will be completed in 2021 and is expected to be commissioned in June the same year. The second and third platforms are expected to be delivered in 2022 and 2023 respectively.

The IPVs will be the first vessels of a Damen Sea Axe design to operate in South Africa. The Sea Axe is a revolutionary, Damen patented hull design, which offers exceptional seakeeping behavior. The straight-edged, axe-shaped bow cuts through the water, minimising slamming for improved safety and comfort on board and significantly reduced fuel consumption and emissions.

sos


KLthinker91
post May 23 2019, 06:26 PM

Getting Started
**
Junior Member
227 posts

Joined: Feb 2019
From: Cherasboy
QUOTE(MilitaryMadness @ May 23 2019, 09:45 AM)

IMO, hitting a warship with a missile with a shaped charge (like an ATGM) will probably cause much, much smaller damage than a similar-sized missile with an HE-Frag warhead. In terms of damage, the impact from a ship's medium-caliber cannon is probably far more damaging to a warship than an ATGM.
*
Yes

Well guided missiles which started off as ATGMs do now come with different flavours such as HE-Frag and thermobaric, because of their usefulness. So it's a reasonable assumption that an ATGM adapted for shipboard use would have a HE-Frag warhead

Even so, you're right that it would be similar to a medium caliber cannon, around 76mm size. Still, a single 76mm shot won't immediately sink a medium-sized ship or destroy critical equipment

QUOTE(MilitaryMadness @ May 23 2019, 03:31 PM)


*
I wonder what makes them inshore rather than offshore vessels
KLthinker91
post May 23 2019, 06:27 PM

Getting Started
**
Junior Member
227 posts

Joined: Feb 2019
From: Cherasboy
Pinoys launched their Korean-built frigate today

user posted image
azriel
post May 23 2019, 06:41 PM

New Member
*
Newbie
4 posts

Joined: Jan 2012
Looks like STRIDE is developing and showcasing what looks like a cut out light/medium tank model.

STRIDE Developing Light Tank?
Mai189
post May 23 2019, 07:43 PM

New Member
*
Newbie
0 posts

Joined: Aug 2018
QUOTE(KLthinker91 @ May 22 2019, 11:37 PM)
Vulnerable areas are more spread out, the ship might be less structurally affected, damage control capability would be much higher. So you might be able to hit something if you're very very lucky. And then again, you might not. You might damage something critical beyond repair, and then again, you might not.
It might, because as I say again, the blast from an ATGM is quite small. There's a good reason why you don't see antiship missiles of this size other than the LCS's Hellfire.
Better to achieve a total kill than settle for a mission kill.
Read properly, I'm talking about bringing 2 USVs to the fight versus bringing a helicopter.
However an S-70 is more capable, can accomplish many other missions such as ASW and transport and aerial surveillance, isn't potentially affected by jamming, has much more range, and can carry much larger missiles or torpedoes to achieve a total kill.
Because the Vanguard 130 only has room for a helicopter hanger OR a USV hangar, it can't carry both.
*
Of course it "might" cause critical damage. If it can destroy a 26m patrol boat, why can it not cause a 26m gaping firey hole in a frigate or a Kedah. And that is just one atgm missile. Typically, a USV as large as a Venus 16 can carry 4 or more. And that "might" increases dramatically given the smallish ships (frigates and below) deployed in the region.

My point is that the aim of such tactic is to get a mission kill bar a total kill. I never said that one should not get a total kill. A mission kill can always result in a total kill later. What..you are going to wait for another opportunity when an gap for an attack presents itself before you in a hot war situation? Do not be ridiculous.

You get a better grasp of what I am proposing. It is not about platform versus platform anymore; rather bringing to the fore the entire force of the network. When the Vanguard deploys its USVs, UUVs and helicopters, they will be tied to a network i.e. sensors and shooters. It is not always the case that a harpoon must come from the Vanguard rather it can even be a sequential attack by the USVs and helicopter and/or ship.

No... it is slowly growing list of marine atgms..hellfires, Spike LR, Spike NLOS and now MMP.

A vanguard class will have room for both USVs and helicopter given its size and if it applies the same design it has implemented on the Endurance 140, the USVs can be stored in the hull of the ship. It is not for nothing Mindef's design showed the deployment of helicopter, UUVs, USVs and UAVs.
Mai189
post May 23 2019, 07:59 PM

New Member
*
Newbie
0 posts

Joined: Aug 2018
QUOTE(MilitaryMadness @ May 23 2019, 09:45 AM)
Of course can penetrate, but probably be a waste though. A shaped charge warhead is good for pinpoint armor penetration, but pretty useless for general demolition duty. That's why Anti-ship missiles use a HE-Frag warhead (usually with an incendiary casing sleeve) for the best results. The small size of a tank's interior causes the small impact of the plasma jet penetrator to do a lot of damage, but warships are large enough to absorb that kind of damage. Most of the damage done on a shaped charge warhead penetration is caused by the spalling of molten armor metal rather than the penetrator itself.

IMO, hitting a warship with a missile with a shaped charge (like an ATGM) will probably cause much, much smaller damage than a similar-sized missile with an HE-Frag warhead. In terms of damage, the impact from a ship's medium-caliber cannon is probably far more damaging to a warship than an ATGM.
*
The blast from a Kornet ATGM proves showcases a blast equal or more than that of a medium calibre cannon say 56mm.


QUOTE
Some ATGM are supersonic (I think Hellfire reach 1 mach+) but I think most problematic is most ATGM is either line of sight or at least need to be launched at a relatively short range so that the launcher's targeting laser is unaffected by the earth's curvature. In naval terms, 30 km is considered 'short-range' already and any attacker would already be inside a decent warship's defensive envelope.
Hmmm..the only naval cannon that can reach 30km is the 127mm cannon and limited by rate of fire. Recent models of ATGMs e.g. Spike LR2 can be fired from more than 5km away - more range than that of a CWIS.

The Pinoy's Spike ER has a range of more than 8km:



Spike NLOS does not even need to be in line of sight....

Has any anti missile missile system shot down a missile the size of an atgm?

Mai189
post May 23 2019, 08:11 PM

New Member
*
Newbie
0 posts

Joined: Aug 2018
Recent Spikes can also receive target data from remote target acquisition systems, such as airborne UAVs/USVs, or remotely operated via networked command and control systems ensuring pin-point accuracy.


Protector USV - 9m

Let us not kid ourselves regarding this threat.
Fat & Fluffy
post May 23 2019, 11:07 PM

Casual
***
Junior Member
397 posts

Joined: Jan 2016
From: Hong Kong



QUOTE(azriel @ May 23 2019, 08:41 PM)
Looks like STRIDE is developing and showcasing what looks like a cut out light/medium tank model.

STRIDE Developing Light Tank?
*
lelz, toy model... just like flying car... i think more realistic is to just bring in tulpar but hopefully dont pay like the gempita... a more pragmatic approach is to get the kaplan but pride will have to be lowered
thpace
post May 23 2019, 11:23 PM

Rising Star
******
Senior Member
1,210 posts

Joined: Aug 2011
QUOTE(Fat & Fluffy @ May 23 2019, 11:07 PM)
lelz, toy model... just like flying car... i think more realistic is to just bring in tulpar but hopefully dont pay like the gempita... a more pragmatic approach is to get the kaplan but pride will have to be lowered
*
would be more wise to develop AV8 with turret from CMI/Hitfact/Denel

Since AV8 used Denel LCT30, i am sure they have a greater general idea on how to fit the LMT 105 turret onto the av8
lucifer_666
post May 24 2019, 03:02 AM

Getting Started
**
Junior Member
234 posts

Joined: Oct 2008


QUOTE(Fat & Fluffy @ May 23 2019, 11:07 PM)
lelz, toy model... just like flying car... i think more realistic is to just bring in tulpar but hopefully dont pay like the gempita... a more pragmatic approach is to get the kaplan but pride will have to be lowered
*
I'm biased for CV90120. Or even CV90105, if 120mm is overkill for medium/light tank.
MilitaryMadness
post May 24 2019, 08:02 AM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,302 posts

Joined: Oct 2010
From: Over your shoulder


QUOTE(KLthinker91 @ May 23 2019, 06:26 PM)
Yes

Well guided missiles which started off as ATGMs do now come with different flavours such as HE-Frag and thermobaric, because of their usefulness. So it's a reasonable assumption that an ATGM adapted for shipboard use would have a HE-Frag warhead

Even so, you're right that it would be similar to a medium caliber cannon, around 76mm size. Still, a single 76mm shot won't immediately sink a medium-sized ship or destroy critical equipment
For anti-ship missions, using an ATGM is not quite right. Although ATGMs can be guided accurately to their target, compared to specialist anti-ship missiles, they are quite 'dumb'. Anti-ship missiles have sea-skimming and defensive maneuvering capabilities, which make them harder to detect and intercept by their target.

Most ATGMs practically fly in a straight line, which could present a problem in naval conditions if launched from the surface. Launch from too far out, and most of the target ship will be hidden by the horizon, launch too close and you'll be in the target ship's defensive envelope.

What you want is an airborne platform.

QUOTE(KLthinker91 @ May 23 2019, 06:26 PM)
I wonder what makes them inshore rather than offshore vessels
*
They're basically coastal patrol vessels. Shallower draft, less endurance, less crew.

MilitaryMadness
post May 24 2019, 08:51 AM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,302 posts

Joined: Oct 2010
From: Over your shoulder


Malaysian Coast Guard initiates 'Op Naga', arrests 123 Vietnamese fishermen and seizes 25 foreign fishing boats

user posted image

After launching a large-scale crackdown in Malaysian waters, authorities there have detained 123 Vietnamese fishermen and 25 vessels for alleged illegal fishing.

The Malaysian Maritime Enforcement Agency (MMEA) conducted “OP Naga” from May 2 to 16, which involved patrols in the waters as well as in the airspace over Pahang, Terengganu and Kelantan, VN Express reported. The operation led to checks on 266 vessels, of which 25 were seized.

On May 18, the Malaysian Home Ministry said the fishermen arrested were being investigated under the Fisheries Act for fishing without permission as well as entering the country without proper documentation.

The MMEA has stated that Op Naga will be continued to curb trespassing and illegal fishing.

From the beginning of last year, there have been at least 101 cases of Vietnamese vessels trespassing in neighboring countries’ waters. Between last year and late April this year, 163 vessels and 1,258 fishermen have been detained.

sos

KLthinker91
post May 24 2019, 09:15 AM

Getting Started
**
Junior Member
227 posts

Joined: Feb 2019
From: Cherasboy
QUOTE(Mai189 @ May 23 2019, 07:43 PM)

If it can destroy a 26m patrol boat, why can it not cause a 26m gaping firey hole in a frigate or a Kedah.
Lol! Damage doesn't work that way rolleyes.gif

Meter =\= Hitpoints

Shooting an ATGM into a 150m destroyer doesn't mean it will create a 26m hole and reduce health by 1/6th! biggrin.gif

Look up photos of ATGM penetrations, you will realise the hole is tiny - smaller than the palm of your hand

QUOTE
My point is that the aim of such tactic is to get a mission kill bar a total kill. I never said that one should not get a total kill. A mission kill can always result in a total kill later. What..you are going to wait for another opportunity when an gap for an attack presents itself before you in a hot war situation? Do not be ridiculous.

You get a better grasp of what I am proposing. It is not about platform versus platform anymore; rather bringing to the fore the entire force of the network. When the Vanguard deploys its USVs, UUVs and helicopters, they will be tied to a network i.e. sensors and shooters.  It is not always the case that a harpoon must come from the Vanguard rather it can even be a sequential attack by the USVs and helicopter and/or ship.

Meh. Every age has its own gimmick. Now of course the rage is drones drones drones

This Van 140 concept is very littoral. It depends a lot on shore support and on a cluttered marine environment. Very workable if around Jurong Island, but not when doing independent ops in the open ocean.

Malaysia can replicate this easily. Just need two guys in a sampan with a radio and a missile. Slap a pretty infographic video and call it PERANG BERDASAR NETWORK biggrin.gif

If I were the Singkies, knowing this ship will be the lead ship of the future... I would insist on a hangar for an S-70 and UAVs. Cut down the USV to just sensors and fuel, forget the Spikes. Make the drone cheap(er) and expendable, purpose is to provide targeting for the SSMs carried by the warship.

QUOTE
No... it is slowly growing list of marine atgms..hellfires, Spike LR, Spike NLOS and now MMP.
Purpose is to deal cheaply with small boat enemies.

QUOTE
A vanguard class will have room for both USVs and helicopter given its size and if it applies the same design it has implemented on the Endurance 140, the USVs can be stored in the hull of the ship. It is not for nothing Mindef's design showed the deployment of helicopter, UUVs, USVs and UAVs.
*
Read properly. Van 140 doesn't have a helicopter hangar.

Of course they show many things. It's a brochure to sell the idea. Whether it works and how well is something else.
Frozen_Sun
post May 24 2019, 09:20 AM

New Member
*
Junior Member
41 posts

Joined: Sep 2013
QUOTE(MilitaryMadness @ May 24 2019, 08:02 AM)
For anti-ship missions, using an ATGM is not quite right. Although ATGMs can be guided accurately to their target, compared to specialist anti-ship missiles, they are quite 'dumb'. Anti-ship missiles have sea-skimming and defensive maneuvering capabilities, which make them harder to detect and intercept by their target.

Most ATGMs practically fly in a straight line, which could present a problem in naval conditions if launched from the surface. Launch from too far out, and most of the target ship will be hidden by the horizon, launch too close and you'll be in the target ship's defensive envelope.

What you want is an airborne platform.

They're basically coastal patrol vessels. Shallower draft, less endurance, less crew.
*
For conventional naval warfare...obviously insufficient. But should be useful for patrol purposes....

ATGM may not be able to sink patrol ships or OPV, but can harass them or even disable them if hit critical spot.
Fat & Fluffy
post May 24 2019, 09:41 AM

Casual
***
Junior Member
397 posts

Joined: Jan 2016
From: Hong Kong



QUOTE(thpace @ May 24 2019, 01:23 AM)
would be more wise to develop AV8 with turret from CMI/Hitfact/Denel

Since AV8 used Denel LCT30, i am sure they have a greater general idea on how to fit the LMT 105 turret onto the av8
*
av8 not tracked...
MilitaryMadness
post May 24 2019, 10:07 AM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,302 posts

Joined: Oct 2010
From: Over your shoulder


QUOTE(Frozen_Sun @ May 24 2019, 09:20 AM)
For conventional naval warfare...obviously insufficient. But should be useful for patrol purposes....

ATGM may not be  able to sink patrol ships or OPV, but can harass them or even disable them if hit critical spot.
*
I think that they are effective to a certain level only. I feel like the attitude for this is like: "Ffftthh as long as its a guided missile, it'll do", discounting everything that makes anti-ship missiles deadly to ships. Dedicated anti-ship missiles have far longer ranges, far larger warheads and have sea skimming & defensive maneuvering capabilities to be really effective in their roles.

Using ATGM to attack ships will also practically be pinprick attack on a target the size of a warship and I think a LOT of luck & skill will be needed to hit an important enough spot to disable them. Most ATGMs carry a warhead less than 10kg while most dedicated anti-ship missiles carry a warhead at least 15x that weight with exponentially far greater damage potential. For example a Kornet missile has a 4.6 kg warhead while a Harpoon missile has 220kg warhead.

This post has been edited by MilitaryMadness: May 24 2019, 10:11 AM
TechSuper
post May 24 2019, 10:21 AM

New Member
*
Junior Member
5 posts

Joined: Jun 2015


QUOTE(MilitaryMadness @ May 23 2019, 03:31 PM)
Damen lays down keel for South African Navy's first Multi Mission Inshore Patrol Vessel (MMIPV)

user posted image

On February 23, Damen Shipyards Cape Town (DSCT) has ceremonially laid the keel for the South African Navy’s first of class Multi Mission Inshore Patrol Vessel (MMIPV) at its shipyard in the Port of Cape Town.

As explained by Chief of the South African Navy Vice-Admiral Mosiwa Hlongwane, a keel laying ceremony is an important tradition for any shipyard. It is naval tradition that every ship constructed for service be honoured on four historical ceremonial occasions, being: the keel laying; the christening (or launching); the commissioning; and decommissioning.

Although most ships are constructed using a modular system that does not include a traditional keel, the keel laying ceremony is still an important part of the construction process. Traditionally, the ceremony is meant to invite good luck during the construction of the ship and continued good fortune throughout the life of the vessel, whereby a commemorative coin is placed into the area of the keel and welded into place. The event in a modern sense celebrates the first milestone of a ship’s construction.

As a reminder, the acquisition of the MMIPV under the R1.5 billion Project Biro was approved in October 2017. The new vessel, P1571, will be completed in 2021 and is expected to be commissioned in June the same year. The second and third platforms are expected to be delivered in 2022 and 2023 respectively.

The IPVs will be the first vessels of a Damen Sea Axe design to operate in South Africa. The Sea Axe is a revolutionary, Damen patented hull design, which offers exceptional seakeeping behavior. The straight-edged, axe-shaped bow cuts through the water, minimising slamming for improved safety and comfort on board and significantly reduced fuel consumption and emissions.

sos
*
muntahlaa sapa operate sea axe design ni. ingatkan bagus punya design. sekali macam2 komplen daaaaaa
TechSuper
post May 24 2019, 10:25 AM

New Member
*
Junior Member
5 posts

Joined: Jun 2015


anyone know what SAAB 2000 MPA doing at Subang? dah 2 pagi aku nampak dia took off sebelum jam 8 dengan bunyi turboprop dia yg bising tu....
MilitaryMadness
post May 24 2019, 10:26 AM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,302 posts

Joined: Oct 2010
From: Over your shoulder


QUOTE(TechSuper @ May 24 2019, 10:21 AM)
muntahlaa sapa operate sea axe design ni. ingatkan bagus punya design. sekali macam2 komplen daaaaaa
*
Ada org complain ke? Tunisian Navy ada 2 OPV Sea Axe jugak, Jugurtha & Syphax.

user posted image
Syphax P611

TechSuper
post May 24 2019, 10:31 AM

New Member
*
Junior Member
5 posts

Joined: Jun 2015


QUOTE(MilitaryMadness @ May 24 2019, 10:26 AM)
Ada org complain ke? Tunisian Navy ada 2 OPV Sea Axe jugak, Jugurtha & Syphax.

user posted image
Syphax P611
*
ada sorg Master geng offshore penah bawak kapal sea axe design ni... even Petronas pun x mau charter kalau ada FCB lain available. hahahaha

139 Pages « < 124 125 126 127 128 > » 
Bump Topic Topic ClosedOptions New Topic
 

Change to:
| Lo-Fi Version
0.0301sec    0.23    6 queries    GZIP Disabled
Time is now: 8th December 2025 - 03:00 AM