Little background about myself, a soon-to-be accounting degree fresh grad from a local uni (2nd upper).

During my internship in audit line, I have went to quite a number of field work and dealt with clients directly (including PLCs). Overall I had a good exposure, gave me a rough idea on the profession.

Since then I started to think of future possibilities:-

1. Audit - totally fine with the job scope of audit. Just that kind of dissatisfied with the long working hours. I am more of a person that prefers work-life balance rather than just work, work and work. I am not really fond of fast career progression and steep increment in pay – instead, I would prefer a steady career progression and growth in pay.
Needless to say, I understand audit provides the best flexibility on future choice as the experience won’t be discounted.

2. Commercial / Tax – can back home mostly on time, peak period is minimal and not as late as 12am. At most 10pm+ which is acceptable.
For tax, salary wise seems to be good, career progression seems to be ok as well, but seems that you will be stuck forever in tax firm. Tax job in commercial firms seems almost to none, and worst thing is, due to the nature of tax, seems that you will be stuck in Malaysia forever. (I don’t really mind being stuck in Malaysia for my whole life, but its always good to have a backup plan just in case)
As for commercial, seems that salary wise is so-so, career progression is also so-so but its ok as my expectations are not that high. But seems that will be stuck forever with that industry that you have chosen, and they seems to favour people with audit experience of at least 3 yrs.

3. Internal audit – I found that it could be one of the choice as I am better on writing / elaborating rather than calculating figures. But then, job offers seems to be limited. Usually only MNCs and PLCs will have internal auditors. Hence, if kena sacked, job security seems to be a part of concern.

4. IT audit – seems still fairly rare in Malaysia. Not much thread discusses about it, but I am interested in information systems as well. In fact, I have considered about reading computer science back then after my SPM but heck, I didn’t like and wasn’t good on complicated maths (calculus etc) back then, so I gave up the thoughts. I am considering this line mainly because of the future trend of AI……seems it could be a good choice as AI might eliminate accounting jobs in future. Will appreciate if anyone can share some exp and info about it.

5. Shared Service Center / GBS (Global Business Service) – Also seems fairly unpopular, what I heard is its similar to commercial but there is more emphasis on ERP systems like SAP. Pay wise seems very good for fresh grad. Knowing certain foreign languages seems to be a plus in this line which might be advantageous to me as I know a foreign langauge (apart from Chinese). But the nature of its an outsourcing job makes me worry about job security despite most of them are established MNCs. I am also doubtful on future career progression on this line – appreciate if anyone can share some info on this as there are very few threads discussing this line.

6. Threat of AI and Cryptocurrency – I am also quite worried about the future career prospects due to the developments in AI (Artificial Intelligence). Will AI eliminate middle level accounting jobs? I know CFO/Financial Controller sure wont kena eliminate but I don’t think I will end up as a CFO/Financial Controller. Probably will only end up in middle level (Finance Manager/Accountant) which I sense there is a risk of being replaced by AI in the next 10-20 years, because I felt that in commercial line the job scope is quite routine and standardized......yes, there are of course judgmental things, but is decided by the CFO/Financial Controller. I even feel that auditors is also same, has a risk of being replaced by AI in 10~20 years.......I felt that during my work, we are just following what the audit manager/ partner decides.

Another issue that I am worried is the emergence of cryptocurrency (e.g. Bitcoin). If everyone started to use them, is accounting job in danger?

My same concern goes to every branch of accounting mentioned above as well. Anyone care to share some view on this?

Sometime reading those news that what jobs will be automated in next 10-20yrs really depresses me because accounting job is always on the list. Will I be jobless in the future?

Which line is, in the long term, most safe from automation by AI?

7. Professional Qualifications - Is it a must? Since I am from recognized local U, I can get my MIA after I work for 3 yrs. Whats the point to pursue ACCA or CPA Aus if I could get my CA title anyway? (Apart from working overseas)

Sorry for my long questions, just feel that I am in a huge dilemma right now and don’t know which pathway should I go for. Hope sifu-sifus here will be able to share some insights.

This post has been edited by pringles123: Apr 28 2018, 11:55 PM

I think you have too much "idea" and expectation in your life. You should first define your "goal" & "success" definition in your life. It's not necessary to be rich, it could be stable life with moderate income but least stress.

Here are some tips for ya:

1. Audit - If you don't like long or random working hour, then you could try this for at least 2 years to boost up your experience value (and also easier to get into internal audit)

2. Commercial - Low salary? Finance director could hit 15k salary, finance manager easily 8k. These are all commercial accounts.

3. Internal Audit - How does job security is a concern? You're utilising your "profession" knowledge to audit the company, you can easily head back to commercial line.

4. IT Audit - You're thinking too much, VB programming skill in Excel is good enough to bring you to IT Audit head.

5. No comments

6. Threat - Even with crypto, organisation is still doing their own field. Proper documentation such as bills and etc still required manpower. Adding Malaysia is growing slowly, expect 20~30 years for full AI production system.

7. More qualification = more competitiveness and bargaining power.

Lastly, refer to the first paragraph, get it sort out and try the jobs before making any conclusion by your own.

As mentioned, my goal and success definition in my life would be work-life balance. My goal is exactly what you mentioned- to live a stable life with moderate income but with less stress.

I dont mind being stuck in office, working routine and boring job, as long as there is a job security there and steady career progression and pay growth. My definition of job security would be, even if the organisation collapsed/retreat and I kena sacked in my late 40s, I could still get another job easily in another similar organisation. E.g. A Group Accountant working in Seagate can still easily find a similar post easily in another manufacturing firm, e.g. Pensonic. / An employee who was working in Arthur Andersen back then had no problem finding a job in other audit/tax firms.

Maybe I forgot to mention another branch that I am also considering - Management Accountant/Cost Accountant. But seems needs CIMA to have good prospects, so higher difficulty I guess, plus opportunity seems not wide.

For commercial, I did not complaint anything about the salary. Instead, I am rather worried about the progression in AI which might eliminates abundance of middle level jobs in commercial line. Another reason is I afraid that I will be stuck in that particular industry, e.g. if I enter into construction company, I will be stuck in construction industry forever, I can only change jobs between construction companies but not hop to IT companies.

For internal audit, I heard that it is very specialized field and you can't head back to any of the line ever, unless you want to start all over from zero......well, in fact this was what I heard for all of the line except for external audit.

Don't worry so much. Just pick a field n try for 6 months. If u don't like it then try something else. At the end of the day especially in business, whether u get into the c suite is highly dependent on ur people skills.

not sure what is your goal? to earn a lot of money or work life balance? i'm accounting background but working with certain field that part of your threat over here.. Automation - still in early stage and in msia there are not many company implement or start using it.. reason, not much mature/well trained developer.. i have no special advise for u, but try to enter real workplace and feel yourselves.

Firstly, you think too much about the future options. No doubt it is good to choose the best route possible but it may not be the same for everybody. What works for some people may not be suitable for you. So far, based on your points, you have highlighted mostly external factors in deciding your career option. Let me highlight a few internal factors first:

1) Your energy – Most graduates come in trail blazing and willing to do anything to climb fast. Most overestimate themselves and burnout when they reach managerial and stuck there. Think of career as marathon rather than sprint. Those that made CEOs/CFOs or successful entrepreneurs are those that grind rather than shortcutting their way up.
2) Your motivation – Your life changes when you marry / have kids / want to buy house and/or cars or anything. This is where suddenly money matters to everyone.
3) Your work experience – Some may encounter cutthroat environment which scarred them for life (Ie: backstabbing, harassment, betrayal, unfair treatment, lack of recognition, …) The field you like may end up as your nightmare
4) Your ability – All in all, sometimes it really depends how far your capability carries you
5) Your adaptability – Finally, you can switch to non-finance areas but depends how much you willing to learn from scratch or willing to take a temporary stall in your career or remuneration progression.

Point 1 - A bit of irony there. I can only think of audit in the finance career where you almost get stead increment and get promoted every year by meeting KPIs (which can be achieved by surviving every year). EA increment is almost RM1k per year which is almost 30% from senior perspective. Of course the % decline progressively as you climbs. I can think of other career which almost guarantees your progression like EA. In most places, increments are 5% and promotion is highly situational. Furthermore, most audit profession peak when they reach managerial position which they mostly focus on managing portfolios. Hence, your learning curve flattens considerably and your stress is mostly about managing people (not to say it’s easy). For example, most manager, director and partner headache is managing labor turnover and considering them to stay until manager.

Point 2 - Your points are mostly in target as most firms outsourced their tax division to Big4 as it’s a cost centre and regulations or corporate governance does not mandate a tax department. MNCs and banks hire more tax people due to the different tax jurisdiction they operate in but opportunities are few and far between as most people rarely leave their jobs.

Point 3 - Correction, you can get sacked at any time by anyone. Hence, no job is secure. Internal audit opportunities are normally in companies which are highly regulated such as banking, customer facing or rely heavily on technology. Internal audit is similar to quality analyst where you have to ensure the controls are fine. It’s not just figures as you need to be familiar with the business operations as well. MNCs also hire a lot of IAs as they need the subsidiaries or foreign operations to comply with HQ.

Point 4 - As you have mentioned it, most firms are adapting to use technology to automate the manual work and process. Audit work is mostly focus on checking, testing and reviewing the internal controls to ensure the financials are true and fair. For a company that relies on manual process, EA will do a lot of test of controls (also manual). For companies that use technologies, IT Audit will test the IT system. The trend is moving towards this direction as the client wants to reduce its finance headcount. The law will still require audit on these areas but audit firms will focus on bringing in more IT graduates than just finance. I think it’s easier to teach IT people to learn finance than the other way around.

Point 5 - Unpopular because it looks less sexy to auditors. To me it’s actually very similar. The only difference is the audit staff is the revenue center for the audit firm while the SSC staffs are cost centers. Both also focus on volume sooner or later (Ie: auditors handle more portfolios, SSC staff handles more companies or jurisdictions …). Jobs quite secure as they should be the lowest paid in the company, so unlikely for the company to fire them. But their bonus won’t be high and progression is again, situational. Isn’t Big4 bonus bad also?

Point 6 - Finance department and audit firms jobs are there because it’s a regulatory requirement. Regulators said company must prepare accounts and must be audited by an independent audit firm. This probably won’t change anytime soon. For example, it takes almost 50 years just to change our company act. The processes will definitely be updated with technology. No job is safe unless you continuously learn and update your knowledge. Those that die first is those that resist to change.

Point 7 – No it’s not a must. It’s all about branding and perception. The same reason why people take overseas professional qualification is like why people prefer Toyota and BMW over proton. If you can convince your future employer, you should have no issue. The problem in Malaysia, most bosses always like to judge based on cover. They think every foreign grad is superior than locals.

Refine your goal as it's very vague. There are 1001 type of jobs that can give you "work-life balance. to live a stable life with moderate income but with less stress". Work stress is a very normal thing ESPECIALLY in the accounting and finance world. You are still young and have not much experience any of the things you mentioned yet, hence it's not really productive to think about it so much yet. Furthermore, salary and "stress-free" environment shouldn't be your concern right now and this is the time you need to learn as much as possible. My suggestion to you is, try working for either one of it first. Have a taste of real life working world first before making any life decision. Every accounting friend of mine will suggest to start working in audit first, spend 2-3 years to learn about everything then see which particular segment you want to move into. Maybe you can take that advise can give it a try.

I have tried out external audit for 6 months during my internship , but I am still indecisive on whether should I continue on external audit after I grad......

Doesn't that mean that I would be in some sort of danger? As in my personal safety.

As for travelling, I've heard that depends on your company, not necessarily all IA requires frequent travel.......



This post has been edited by pringles123: May 1 2018, 07:21 PM

Definitely my goal would be work life balance.

I've entered into real workplace for half year during my internship (they treated me exactly like a permanent audit junior, some of my colleagues even thought I am a permanent staff, so my experience is not that kind of "guest" experience), yet still I am here being indecisive......

MNC will be your choice. Big 4 will not have any work life balance. If you're good enough, career path in MNC can be very good, either on par or maybe better than big 4 firm..

One thing that need to take note is most people over comfortable in MNC and cause career path move slow.. and they complain.. MNC have no guarantee promotion like big 4.. u need really work smart to get promotion

Thanks for the long reply and advice. Its really helpful.

1) My energy - I am not that kind of person that wish to climb fast. My view is that while career is indeed an important part of life, its not everything of my life. I have my families, have my hobbies. So as long as my career is a stable and sustainable job with steady progression, I am not discontented with slower career progression. Totally agree with your point of "career is a marathon rather than a sprint".

2) I am ok with switching to a non-finance/accounting related area and I am open to them but so far, those alternative jobs that I am interested in, have limited career opportunity and lack of stable career progression in Malaysia. For me, stability always comes 1st. I know this doesn't sounds like a typical youngster in his early 20s but it is hard not to think so when your family members have went through a tough time just because they wanna pursue their dreams by starting up a business/working at a job which has limited career opportunity and stability; and at the end lost all his lifetime savings/being sacked suddenly and became jobless for months.

Point 1 - I understand that, but I think the stress, workload and time spent over there is simply not worth the money......However, I've heard small audit firms has lesser work burden - my friend who went for his internship at a small audit firm claims that everyone there finishes their work at 7-8pm+, during peak also only work until 10pm+.......the stress to meet deadlines are much less than in Big 4 or Mid-tier firms. They also say the manager and partner will value you even if you are only above average because most of the above average people went to mid-tier firm / Big 4. However the story I hear from them like having messy accounts provided by clients (which I seldom encountered when I was in mid-tier firm) and also the fact that they are still using manual excel sheet ONLY (do not have any sort of audit software that helps your work dramatically less) makes me feel that with the advancement of technology it might put me in a disadvantage.

Point 3 - Yes, I understand any job can be sacked anytime. However, I am referring to the abundance of jobs - if I were sacked in IA, its hard to find another IA post. But for commercial, tax or audit, I can always go to another firm, there are plenty of them, compared to IA. This is what I am worried of.

Point 4 - Its very sad to hear such thing........sometimes I wonder if I was wrong when I chose accounting instead of computer science just because I was bad in calculus, algebra etc. Many of my peers who performed poorly then me in maths during secondary school has now successfully graduated from computer science degrees and landed with good jobs, without worrying all these things.......well, grass seems to be always greener at the other side, maybe.

Point 5 - How if, lets say, Shell SSC decided to transfer all their SSC jobs to cheaper country, like India or Philippines? I wonder if the experience will be treated as I worked in commercial line? I am also curious about the possible progression.......do they have decent and reasonable amount of managerial position?

Point 6 - Yes, I understand that we always need to constantly update ourselves with the advancement and knowledge. Like everyone in accounting line nowadays has to know how to use excel, at the very least. But that doesnt make the jobs being eliminated. So long as you update yourself, jobs are still abundant. But with robots (or more precisely, AIs), I afraid there will be structural unemployment.......like there were so many farmers back then, but you need lesser of them after the invention of automated machines which could help so much efficiently to harvest, etc. We still have agriculture, but they simply dont employ so much people as they dont need to. This is what I am feared of accounting industry at the age of AI.......gov will still require regulations and whatnot, the whole industry is still there, but they will need much less people.

I know I might sound a little pessimistic, maybe I am just over-thinking.....

Be prepared for the interview question

"Why not continue external audit? Are you a quitter who quits easily? "

There will be lots of grilling questions if u choose apart from EA and Tax though. I'm currently in the same boat as you though. Will be graduating next month but seeking a career in IA though. Went couple of interviews and gain alot insights and tips from the experienced person. But all bore down to what is your passion though.

Yes, I felt that even mid-tier firms (which I worked) lacks work life balance during peak (working up until 11pm, 12am and working during weekend to meet deadlines), so I assume Big 4 would be worse, judging by everyone else who shared their experience with Big 4.

I don't think I will complaint for slower career progression in MNC......of course I will be dissatisfied the progression is almost zero, like you are stuck as senior executive even at 40s++..... but otherwise its fine for me...... what concerns me more is the job security, especially in my 40s and 50s.

But then, I am just an average joe......nothing special, not handsome, not charismatic, not an extrovert / social-type of person but not to say too shy kind of person......almost every ability of mine would be just average to above average. None of my ability is considered to be outstanding or whatsoever, but not to say poor or below average. Well, at least that is what my colleagues, managers, friends tells me and also judging from my academic results.

academic may not something related to working performance but definitely it is something.. There are some MNC offer certain development program for those achieved great results in academic which can easily boost your career path..

i've been through multiples MNCs almost all MNC are working the same. (US MNC).. something that u will go through is learn how to brand & sell yourself.. working hard is not really important to fasten your career path but work smart is the thing.. people always said think out of the box.. but most ppl are following instructions and steps by steps to done their tasks.. this is always an example u can see in any companies and they're moving slower..

AI/Machine learning is really something but there are really not much of experts in this field. There are few consulting services in this field but major from India. If you can be one of developer, then it may be good for you but u should really look for really big MNC for this. i would say currently is just a stage of testing & adapt in process which is quite early stage yet.. but in next 5 years, top management will see a lot of benefits and really there are some repetitive job nature maybe replaced by this.. (it's still depend on top management's decision)

my friends and gf mostly worked in firm and everyday u can heard about OT, deadlines, this & that.. work-life balance definitely is not a wise choice for big 4.. but promotion/salary increment really is something that hold ppl back.. but if compare mine and theirs salary by hours.. i think mine is slightly better.. =)

Well, sad to say, I don't really have any kind of passion towards any jobs.......

Dont get me wrong, I am ok with accounting/finance jobs, just not having like huge passion towards it. But definitely doesnt hate it.

Sometimes I feel like I am like a retired old man, the biggest passion of me is to live a stable life with stable job, watching movies, reading books at my free time......

Maybe this is because I have went through a tough time when I was young due to family financial issues. I am kind of super risk averse and feel that stability is above all. Experience of looking at my parents worked like a cow for their business but at the end, lost all their savings and back to square one makes me feel that sticking to a stable job is very, very important.

Thats why so long as I dont hate the job then I am ok with it. Heck, I am even ok with audit for rest of my life but the long hours is what I dislike.

Sadly, I seems to be the exact kind of person that is "following instructions and steps by steps to done their tasks", at least during my internship.

Not to say I am that kind of person that works hard......in fact, I often work smart to avoid unnecessary works/tasks which some of my colleagues does them unnecessarily......But thats it. Didn't really went anything beyond that.

Yes, that is exactly why I wish to avoid audit (at least in Big 4 and mid-tier firms) because of lack of work life balance. However, indecisive person like me seems to be advised to go for audit as the working experience would not be discounted.......but then, I dont wish to have no life during my 20s which I will have the most energy to do something I like and has lesser burden/responsibility (not married)......plus, my parents are already old, who knows they might pass away (touch wood) while Im working late every night in audit ...... I wish to spend more time with them while they are still alive and healthy, dont want to regret later in my life that I was just working.......thats why I dont mind slower career progression, as long as there is a career progression.

As for the threat of AI/automation, I really wish to hedge my risk by venturing into safer branch of accounting which is safer from automation/ AI ....... I know its not gonna be easy to find a job when I am in my 40s and found myself being sacked and the entire line of job is non-existent. I dont want this to happen. But the developer, as you mentioned........doesnt it sounds like more to an IT/computer science job? Or, is it one of the job scope of IT auditor?

This post has been edited by pringles123: May 1 2018, 10:42 PM

I'm accounting with VBA knowledge. The automation tool need someone with business acumen and if you have VBA or any programming background is better. I have both so easier to adapt it quickly. I'm one of robotics developer. BTW, I'm more on VBA and used to improve our enhance process. While robotics still in exploring stage although I did 1 process fully automated.

As an accounting & finance grad, my advice is,

Take whatever option you currently have, chances are you will deviate or be more specialize in something else further down the road which you have never expected.

I have worked in both shared services and corporate, 2 years later I finally found what I want.

Your first job is only to shape your working mindset and attitude, it doesn't really matter what you do.

You are not pessimistic, you are conservative.

At your current stage, you have nothing much to lose or gain. Why not spend time jumping to those jobs and learn your answer?

It seems that you want to map out all the possible route before you make a choice on deciding which is the best. Your approach is not wrong as this is recommended when you are a student. When you start working, you may not have such luxury of time and resources. In work, you may do a lot of fire-fighting where you need to make snap shot decisions and live with the consequences. This is normally considered a steep learning curve for most students who live and operate in a controlled environment where almost everything is pre-ordained. Real working situation is more chaotic and requires more adjustments.

Of the things that you fear such as long working hours, you may not actually know until you try it. I find myself more miserable working short hours but asked to work meaningless tasks. Time is relative.

Yeah your earlier jobs should be in big4...

you forgot to list down some other options

1. consultancy or advisory
2. Transfer pricing
3. GST / SST
4. Audit investigation

I believe audit firms have further break down many other types of department and not just limited to your initial options

Internal audit is awesome as Bursa Saham has mandatory companies to have internal audit (min 2x a year) - plus you need to get a license to be internal auditor

IT Audit = very interesting job but you would need to get jobs in IT companies as this is more relevant to them (also another specialised license you may consider to get)

professional papers (CIMA/CPA/ICAEW/ACCA) - this is for working beyond Malaysia since like you said that you will get MIA. However, like some others who mentioned as well.. it's branding and adding another star on your resume to differentiate you from other candidates (who already have both MIA & ACCA). However you would need to think carefully which one you want to get since CIMA (now joined with AICPA now is called CGMA) which is focused on management accounting while ACCA/ICAEW/CPA focused more on the financial accounting side.

Hope this helps you.

Here’s a thought

First couple of years, suck it up and work your ass through

You can sleep when you are dead. Embrace technology, transparency and change

You may not like the working hours of EA, but as a fresh grad and out of all your options, that is the best choice. A fresh grad should prioritize learning, at least for the first 2-3 years, even if you really want a work-life balance. Plus EA gives you exposure and experience so you will be more sure of what you wanna do later on.
Suffer those years when you can, then you can enjoy that work-life balance later on.

My thoughts on IA as I have interned there before: one of your best options, but only further down your career path. IA requires knowledge not only about that particular sector/business, but you should also have background on some other departments such as finance. And from my experience, most IA came from within the same company but different departments, so they had prior knowledge of that particular department thus able to analyse and advise better.

(in fact, currently I myself have a goal of settling down in IA much later in my career as the pay and work-life balance is pretty good)

How true. I find ambitious / capable graduates are more depressed when they don't have an avenue to show case their talents. At least EA gives them the opportunity and freedom to lead projects (big or small) due to severe lack of resources. Most fresh grads are subject to heavy supervision and lack of autonomy in their jobs.