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> Hack Wall in Condo: Structural Engineer Approval

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TSklaw
post Apr 16 2018, 03:29 PM, updated 6y ago

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Hi,
Wanna seek advice from anyone who has been in this situation.

I am renovating a condo unit, and want to hack off a wall. The contractors have confirmed that this is not a load bearing or structural wall, and it will be safe to hack. However, the JMB will not allow the work to proceed until we get certification from a Structural Engineer that the work will not affect the structure of the building.

Does anyone have any advice as to:
1) Where I can find a structural engineer?
2) How much would it cost?

Appreciate any response.
fireballs
post Apr 16 2018, 03:43 PM

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the contractors will definately say so they can proceed with the work.
tearing down wall in a condo is serious thing.

contact the developer for the structural engineer.
cherroy
post Apr 16 2018, 03:55 PM

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QUOTE(klaw @ Apr 16 2018, 03:29 PM)
Hi,
Wanna seek advice from anyone who has been in this situation.

I am renovating a condo unit, and want to hack off a wall. The contractors have confirmed that this is not a load bearing or structural wall, and it will be safe to hack. However, the JMB will not allow the work to proceed until we get certification from a Structural Engineer that the work will not affect the structure of the building.

Does anyone have any advice as to:
1) Where I can find a structural engineer?
2) How much would it cost?

Appreciate any response.
*
You cannot simply just rely on contractor's word. sweat.gif

Can contact the JMB/developer, they have all the drawing, as well as structural engineer/architect who signed off the building plan.
SheepGeeks
post Apr 16 2018, 04:07 PM

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QUOTE(klaw @ Apr 16 2018, 03:29 PM)
Hi,
Wanna seek advice from anyone who has been in this situation.

I am renovating a condo unit, and want to hack off a wall. The contractors have confirmed that this is not a load bearing or structural wall, and it will be safe to hack. However, the JMB will not allow the work to proceed until we get certification from a Structural Engineer that the work will not affect the structure of the building.

Does anyone have any advice as to:
1) Where I can find a structural engineer?
2) How much would it cost?

Appreciate any response.
*
Normally, you'll need to consult the counsel before starting any work (MBSJ, MPK or what ever you belongs to), they'll recommend you accordingly including the structural / civil engineer. (Around RM few ks)

In this case, it's a condo, hence you should contact the developer for the existing engineer contact then you should negotiate and apply for renovation permit from the counsel.
TSklaw
post Apr 16 2018, 05:01 PM

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QUOTE(cherroy @ Apr 16 2018, 03:55 PM)
You cannot simply just rely on contractor's word.  sweat.gif

Can contact the JMB/developer, they have all the drawing, as well as structural engineer/architect who signed off the building plan.
*
JMB claim to no longer able to find the structural plan and drawings sad.gif
It looks like need to go back to original developer to find out who these architects/engineers are.
TSklaw
post Apr 16 2018, 05:03 PM

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QUOTE(SheepGeeks @ Apr 16 2018, 04:07 PM)
Normally, you'll need to consult the counsel before starting any work (MBSJ, MPK or what ever you belongs to), they'll recommend you accordingly including the structural / civil engineer. (Around RM few ks)

In this case, it's a condo, hence you should contact the developer for the existing engineer contact then you should negotiate and apply for renovation permit from the counsel.
*
Hi SheepGeeks, the JMB didn't mention we need local council approval. Is this a legal requirement, because I thought if the JMB is happy with a certification, then we can proceed with this.
SheepGeeks
post Apr 16 2018, 05:16 PM

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QUOTE(klaw @ Apr 16 2018, 05:03 PM)
Hi SheepGeeks, the JMB didn't mention we need local council approval. Is this a legal requirement, because I thought if the JMB is happy with a certification, then we can proceed with this.
*
By right, all the floor plan change has to be updated to local council with/without engineer endorsement.

Legally, you have to because even when the developer wants to build something on the particular land, they have to submit all required document, endorsement and floor plan before acquiring the permission to build.

You may consult your local council at no cost before doing anything. No harm to check..
cherroy
post Apr 16 2018, 05:35 PM

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QUOTE(klaw @ Apr 16 2018, 05:01 PM)
JMB claim to no longer able to find the structural plan and drawings sad.gif
It looks like need to go back to original developer to find out who these architects/engineers are.
*
JMB is formed by proprietor owners + developer.

JMB should have representative from the developer, and in touch with developer.
Developer is only considered "out" once MC is formed, aka after strata title being issued.

JMB or MC should have all the plan and drawing, especially MC is formed and developer hand out all the responsibility of building management to MC.

michealtan22
post Apr 16 2018, 11:52 PM

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The best way to justify either that wall is load bearing or non load bearing are, Non load bearing wall using brick or block or partition. Load bearing wall is reinforce concrete. Get the layout plan from your management and check. Old condominium will have brick but mostly new condominium will be using reinforced concrete to save the beam and column work
jeffvip
post Apr 17 2018, 12:09 AM

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QUOTE(michealtan22 @ Apr 16 2018, 11:52 PM)
The best way to justify either that wall is load bearing or non load bearing are,  Non load bearing wall using brick or block or partition. Load bearing wall is reinforce concrete. Get the layout plan from your management and check. Old condominium will have brick but mostly new condominium will be using reinforced concrete to save the beam and column work
*
Nowadays, some developer will be using Reinforced Concrete (RC) at non-structural part also so they can complete the building faster. The usual brickwall area will be RC too. It depends on how the design engineer envision the load movement. So those RC part maybe just having minimum steel requirement. At the end, the best and safest and fastest way is to get the construction drawing from developer. Usual Engineer dont dare to put their signature because it carries a lot of risk to them. 100 year liability to be exact if something wrong.
Volkswagen2
post Apr 17 2018, 07:55 AM

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QUOTE(klaw @ Apr 16 2018, 03:29 PM)
Hi,
Wanna seek advice from anyone who has been in this situation.

I am renovating a condo unit, and want to hack off a wall. The contractors have confirmed that this is not a load bearing or structural wall, and it will be safe to hack. However, the JMB will not allow the work to proceed until we get certification from a Structural Engineer that the work will not affect the structure of the building.

Does anyone have any advice as to:
1) Where I can find a structural engineer?
2) How much would it cost?

Appreciate any response.
*
Cherroy and Michealtan22 have given some appropriate advice. You must need to obtain approval from the JMB or developer for any renovation/hacking to the walls. As mentioned earlier, the structural plan from the Engineer that indicates which wall is load-bearing or non-load bearing should be readily available.

As to Jeffyip's response, it is true that RC walls may be used as non-load bearing walls. However, brick is not used for load bearing for permanent RC structures. To cut a story short, it doesn't matter if the engineer chooses to use reinforced concrete or bricks as a non-load bearing element. Most of the time you can hack off a brickwall as it's non-load bearing. If it's an RC wall, you would need to leave it as is although it may be a non-load bearing. Only the engineer knows.

KLaw - please do not follow the contractor blindly. Always go through the proper channel. You wouldn't want the upper floor to come crashing down to your unit if you have happen to hack off a load-bearing RC wall. In summary, you don't need to find a "structural engineer". Just contact your JMB or developer and they should be able to advise you accordingly since they would have to ask the original designer (structural engineer) who has designed the building.
TSklaw
post Apr 17 2018, 06:38 PM

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QUOTE(Volkswagen2 @ Apr 17 2018, 07:55 AM)
Cherroy and Michealtan22 have given some appropriate advice. You must need to obtain approval from the JMB or developer for any renovation/hacking to the walls. As mentioned earlier, the structural plan from the Engineer that indicates which wall is load-bearing or non-load bearing should be readily available.

As to Jeffyip's response, it is true that RC walls may be used as non-load bearing walls. However, brick is not used for load bearing for permanent RC structures. To cut a story short, it doesn't matter if the engineer chooses to use reinforced concrete or bricks as a non-load bearing element. Most of the time you can hack off a brickwall as it's non-load bearing. If it's an RC wall, you would need to leave it as is although it may be a non-load bearing. Only the engineer knows.

KLaw - please do not follow the contractor blindly. Always go through the proper channel. You wouldn't want the upper floor to come crashing down to your unit if you have happen to hack off a load-bearing RC wall. In summary, you don't need to find a "structural engineer". Just contact your JMB or developer and they should be able to advise you accordingly since they would have to ask the original designer (structural engineer) who has designed the building.
*
Thank you everyone for your kind responses so far. I understand the need to be cautious about what the contractor says, because my family will be living there as well, and the loss of life if it's my fault would be unimaginable.
I'm trying to do it the proper channel way, but I'm still stuck with the requirements.

Here is what I have encountered so far today:
- Management Office tells me "The building is so old, we don't have the building plan or structural plan" (FYI building is built in the mid 90s). They are asking me to hire an architect/structural engineer on my own money to certify that the wall removal work that I want to do is safe.
- I tried calling MBPJ COB (Commission of Building) to clarify this situation, but no one picked up.
- I talked to a few structural engineers, they don't even want to certify anything if they are not provided with the building's structural plan (due to liability)

What it seems like I need to do next is to go to the developer (Glomac) and get those plans, but because the building is so old, I hope they haven't thrown away all the information. Also, it kind of feels like I'm doing the work that should be done by the Management Office, don't you think?




Volkswagen2
post Apr 18 2018, 07:56 AM

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QUOTE(klaw @ Apr 17 2018, 06:38 PM)
Thank you everyone for your kind responses so far. I understand the need to be cautious about what the contractor says, because my family will be living there as well, and the loss of life if it's my fault would be unimaginable.
I'm trying to do it the proper channel way, but I'm still stuck with the requirements.

Here is what I have encountered so far today:
- Management Office tells me "The building is so old, we don't have the building plan or structural plan" (FYI building is built in the mid 90s). They are asking me to hire an architect/structural engineer on my own money to certify that the wall removal work that I want to do is safe.
- I tried calling MBPJ COB (Commission of Building) to clarify this situation, but no one picked up.
- I talked to a few structural engineers, they don't even want to certify anything if they are not provided with the building's structural plan (due to liability)

What it seems like I need to do next is to go to the developer (Glomac) and get those plans, but because the building is so old, I hope they haven't thrown away all the information. Also, it kind of feels like I'm doing the work that should be done by the Management Office, don't you think?
*
For a more than 20 years building, it is more complex as the plans and drawings are mostly in cold storage and archived, perhaps thrown away also. The Authority (MBPJ) should have the plan but they won't be in the position to tell you whether you can hack off the wall or not, and also as you have found out they will not entertain request from the public on these things since the drawings may have been cold storage somewhere and cannot be found easily since it is more than 20 years. They are not obligated to do this for the public unless you have some special connection with them or something.

Not trying to be long-winded, the best way forward for you now is only to approach the developer as you are intending to do. If they have already lost all the plans/drawings, you can try asking for the contact of the original consultant (C&S engineer) of this particular building. The "original" engineer of the building. They would likely have the plans in cold storage.

In summary, actually your case is very simple, as you want to find whether you can hack a particular wall or not. It is the procedure that is complicated. In reality, it is actually a process of determining whether the wall can be removed or not, a matter of whether it's a load bearing or non-load bearing wall. Even if it is non-load bearing wall(brick) which can be hacked off, you will still need to go through the procedure, to obtain approval from the JMB/developer which will be in contact with the engineer. Even if your Contractor knows it's a brickwall and can be hacked, it's not that easy as you need to go through the proper process and procedure, to obtain approval from the relevant parties to proceed with the removal of the wall. In your case it will be difficult since it's more than 20 years and the link of communication between the developer and engineer would have been lost since it's already a long time gone. Things such as the Engineering company may have ceased operation or closed down and no longer available, the Engineer is no longer in the country and cannot be found etc., these things may happen. Having said that, you can try to contact the engineer directly if you are able to if the developer cannot help you.
Volkswagen2
post Apr 18 2018, 08:04 AM

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Forgot to mention that other engineers will likely not take up this job although it's a simple one since they need to have a better understanding of the structure before they can certify or endorse their proposal. To be able to do so they need to have the plans or drawings at the very least. There might be a situation whereby they need to clarify with the original designer on some uncertainties. It's a liability that an engineer will have to take, hence without the full understanding of the structure (although a simple one), most engineers will likely not take up the task.

Again, it's a matter of the procedure, in this case the liability of the engineer although the issue can be very simple, whether a wall can be hacked or not.
enriquelee
post Apr 18 2018, 10:10 AM

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QUOTE(klaw @ Apr 17 2018, 06:38 PM)
Thank you everyone for your kind responses so far. I understand the need to be cautious about what the contractor says, because my family will be living there as well, and the loss of life if it's my fault would be unimaginable.
I'm trying to do it the proper channel way, but I'm still stuck with the requirements.

Here is what I have encountered so far today:
- Management Office tells me "The building is so old, we don't have the building plan or structural plan" (FYI building is built in the mid 90s). They are asking me to hire an architect/structural engineer on my own money to certify that the wall removal work that I want to do is safe.
- I tried calling MBPJ COB (Commission of Building) to clarify this situation, but no one picked up.
- I talked to a few structural engineers, they don't even want to certify anything if they are not provided with the building's structural plan (due to liability)

What it seems like I need to do next is to go to the developer (Glomac) and get those plans, but because the building is so old, I hope they haven't thrown away all the information. Also, it kind of feels like I'm doing the work that should be done by the Management Office, don't you think?
*
I would suggest, you try to find out what wall is this 1st. If it is a brick wall, then you can just tear it down as brickwall is a non structural wall.
If it is a reinforced concrete wall, you better just leave with it. Most likely you would not be able to find record to proof whether it is a structural or non-structural wall.
Pucca&Garu
post Apr 18 2018, 12:19 PM

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BrickWall = Non Load Bearing Wall
TSklaw
post Apr 19 2018, 02:57 PM

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QUOTE(Volkswagen2 @ Apr 18 2018, 07:56 AM)
For a more than 20 years building, it is more complex as the plans and drawings are mostly in cold storage and archived, perhaps thrown away also. The Authority (MBPJ) should have the plan but they won't be in the position to tell you whether you can hack off the wall or not, and also as you have found out they will not entertain request from the public on these things since the drawings may have been cold storage somewhere and cannot be found easily since it is more than 20 years. They are not obligated to do this for the public unless you have some special connection with them or something.

Not trying to be long-winded, the best way forward for you now is only to approach the developer as you are intending to do. If they have already lost all the plans/drawings, you can try asking for the contact of the original consultant (C&S engineer) of this particular building. The "original" engineer of the building. They would likely have the plans in cold storage.

In summary, actually your case is very simple, as you want to find whether you can hack a particular wall or not. It is the procedure that is complicated. In reality, it is actually a process of determining whether the wall can be removed or not, a matter of whether it's a load bearing or non-load bearing wall. Even if it is non-load bearing wall(brick) which can be hacked off, you will still need to go through the procedure, to obtain approval from the JMB/developer which will be in contact with the engineer. Even if your Contractor knows it's a brickwall and can be hacked, it's not that easy as you need to go through the proper process and procedure, to obtain approval from the relevant parties to proceed with the removal of the wall. In your case it will be difficult since it's more than 20 years and the link of communication between the developer and engineer would have been lost since it's already a long time gone. Things such as the Engineering company may have ceased operation or closed down and no longer available, the Engineer is no longer in the country and cannot be found etc., these things may happen. Having said that, you can try to contact the engineer directly if you are able to if the developer cannot help you.
*
Volkswagen2,
What you say is exactly right. As of this afternoon, we have finally found the engineer who was on the project 2 decades ago. He has not returned my call yet. Basically, I am in a better position todayfor at least I have a glimmer of hope that at least there might be someone who is willing to do that certification.

I know that brick wall cannot be used as a structural wall. I know this, my contractor knows this, the building manager knows this as well. They have also visited my unit and said "it looks like this should be a brick wall". It's the matter of them wanting me to go through proper procedures so that everyone is protected from legal liability. (in more crude terms, everyone wants to cover their asses)
whitejack
post Apr 20 2018, 09:43 AM

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1) Majlis will not keep any record or plans of the structure of the building. Even they have, it is just a simple drawings, not good enough for checking.

2) No engineers are willing to certify for you when you dont have any details / plans from original designer or due to liability.

3) Even there is engineer willing certify, most likely he will charge you at a very high fee, say RM5k to RM10k.

4) Sometimes it is not simple as tearing down a brickwall. Your neighbours may look trouble for you. I give one example, your neighbour who stay above you, his unit already got crack before your tear down the wall. So, after you take down the wall, he comes down and looks for you, "hey, my unit is cracked because you take down the wall.", what are you going to do? Next next day, another unit owner comes also claim his house got crack because you take down the wall……what are you going to do? Building manager will not help you defend on this. They will ask you to repair in order to close case. You want show the engineer's certification? This will not help because they will show you the fact that his unit is crack but you cannot proof whether it is new crack or old crack.

So, think about it if it is worth to do so, the money and time spent for that brickwall.
Pucca&Garu
post Apr 21 2018, 03:05 PM

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QUOTE(klaw @ Apr 19 2018, 02:57 PM)
Volkswagen2,
What you say is exactly right. As of this afternoon, we have finally found the engineer who was on the project 2 decades ago. He has not returned my call yet. Basically, I am in a better position todayfor at least I have a glimmer of hope that at least there might be someone who is willing to do that certification.

I know that brick wall cannot be used as a structural wall. I know this, my contractor knows this, the building manager knows this as well. They have also visited my unit and said "it looks like this should be a brick wall". It's the matter of them wanting me to go through proper procedures so that everyone is protected from legal liability. (in more crude terms, everyone wants to cover their asses)
*
When talk about the legal liability, if your s&p not stated that the unit wall cannot be hacked and the JMB regulations also not mentioned, why can't you hack the wall? Your contractor can hack a small part of the wall to determine if it is a brickwall.
kabyss87
post Oct 12 2018, 05:30 PM

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QUOTE(klaw @ Apr 16 2018, 03:29 PM)
Hi,
Wanna seek advice from anyone who has been in this situation.

I am renovating a condo unit, and want to hack off a wall. The contractors have confirmed that this is not a load bearing or structural wall, and it will be safe to hack. However, the JMB will not allow the work to proceed until we get certification from a Structural Engineer that the work will not affect the structure of the building.

Does anyone have any advice as to:
1) Where I can find a structural engineer?
2) How much would it cost?

Appreciate any response.
*
Hey bro, did you manage to get it done?

Was planning to do the same with my new home. hopefully it can be done without an issue



 

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