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Enquiries/Recommendations Is the GL503 SCAR the better machine?, as compared to Zephyrus?

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TSIncredibleNano
post Mar 13 2018, 02:01 AM, updated 7y ago

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The GL503VS features a GTX 1070, and the ROG Zephyrus features a GTX 1080 MaxQ. Since MaxQ has less performance, the GTX 1070 match the GTX 1080 MaxQ, as shown by this thread: https://forum.lowyat.net/topic/4458919/all. The 144 Hz G-SYNC display on the GL503VS also one ups the 120 Hz G-SYNC display on the Zephyrus. The Zephyrus is a bit more portable and sexier, but if we ignore that, and just look at gaming performance, is the GL503VS the better laptop? icon_question.gif
Left4Dead2
post Mar 13 2018, 10:00 AM

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I would pick GL503VS because of better display 144hz, ram, storage and cheaper

ROG and its blink is not necessary
System Error Message
post Mar 13 2018, 09:03 PM

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maxQ doesnt really have less performance, it highly depends on cooling and power allowance. Put a 1080 maxQ in alienware and it'd perform like an ordinary 1080 if the power limit is the same as an ordinary 1080 laptop.
TSIncredibleNano
post Mar 14 2018, 06:07 PM

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QUOTE(Left4Dead2 @ Mar 13 2018, 10:00 AM)
I would pick GL503VS because of better display 144hz, ram, storage and cheaper

ROG and its blink is not necessary
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Err GL503VS is part of the ROG family too brows.gif

QUOTE(System Error Message @ Mar 13 2018, 09:03 PM)
maxQ doesnt really have less performance, it highly depends on cooling and power allowance. Put a 1080 maxQ in alienware and it'd perform like an ordinary 1080 if the power limit is the same as an ordinary 1080 laptop.
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The specifications for MaxQ GPUs is actually lower than the standard 1080, no idea how can your 1080 MaxQ in Alienware run as fast as a 1080 hmm.gif
System Error Message
post Mar 15 2018, 10:09 AM

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QUOTE(IncredibleNano @ Mar 14 2018, 06:07 PM)
Err GL503VS is part of the ROG family too  brows.gif
The specifications for MaxQ GPUs is actually lower than the standard 1080, no idea how can your 1080 MaxQ in Alienware run as fast as a 1080  hmm.gif
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because the standard 1070 in my alienware runs way faster than stock. Its not a different bios, its just alienware allocates more power to the GPU than other laptop manufacturers. Nowadays for intel CPUs and nvidia GPUs the manufacturer can choose the max amount of power which is what determines power and efficiency. For instance you could take a quad core i7 CPU and cap it to 10W which would cap its frequency. Its the same for nvidia GPUs as well, power allocation determines frequency.

on the zephyrus, the 1080 maxq is in a thin and light form factor, the power allocation is less, and the performance is only a bit more. MaxQ gives more performance than the lesser GPU at the same watts though because running more cores at lower frequency is more power efficient for performance than running higher clocks with less cores. The difference in performance at same watts is small though, the 1080 maxq beats the 1070 at the same power only by 5-15% as its not just shaders that matter, but having more of every GPU resource (ROPs, TMUs, etcs). In the zephyrus the 1080 is given less power than the 1070 so they perform the same but the 1070 is faster if theres enough power to overclock it.

This post has been edited by System Error Message: Mar 15 2018, 10:34 AM
TSIncredibleNano
post Mar 15 2018, 11:23 AM

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QUOTE(System Error Message @ Mar 15 2018, 10:09 AM)
because the standard 1070 in my alienware runs way faster than stock. Its not a different bios, its just alienware allocates more power to the GPU than other laptop manufacturers. Nowadays for intel CPUs and nvidia GPUs the manufacturer can choose the max amount of power which is what determines power and efficiency. For instance you could take a quad core i7 CPU and cap it to 10W which would cap its frequency. Its the same for nvidia GPUs as well, power allocation determines frequency.

on the zephyrus, the 1080 maxq is in a thin and light form factor, the power allocation is less, and the performance is only a bit more. MaxQ gives more performance than the lesser GPU at the same watts though because running more cores at lower frequency is more power efficient for performance than running higher clocks with less cores. The difference in performance at same watts is small though, the 1080 maxq beats the 1070 at the same power only by 5-15% as its not just shaders that matter, but having more of every GPU resource (ROPs, TMUs, etcs). In the zephyrus the 1080 is given less power than the 1070 so they perform the same but the 1070 is faster if theres enough power to overclock it.
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NVIDIA GPUs have boost clocks, I do understand that if they have enough power and thermal headroom, they will clock up to their full potential. However the MaxQ GPUs are specced for lower clocks, and have lower TDPs. The whole intention of the MaxQ technology was to enable high end GPUs in slim and light form factors. If you deliver more power to a 1080 MaxQ and force it to run faster, you will be essentially cancelling out any benefit of MaxQ.
System Error Message
post Mar 15 2018, 04:38 PM

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QUOTE(IncredibleNano @ Mar 15 2018, 11:23 AM)
NVIDIA GPUs have boost clocks, I do understand that if they have enough power and thermal headroom, they will clock up to their full potential. However the MaxQ GPUs are specced for lower clocks, and have lower TDPs. The whole intention of the MaxQ technology was to enable high end GPUs in slim and light form factors. If you deliver more power to a 1080 MaxQ and force it to run faster, you will be essentially cancelling out any benefit of MaxQ.
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both intel CPUs and nvidia GPUs boost themselves up. Nvidia GPUs will boost themselves even more if temperature and power is there. However nvidia GPUs and intel CPUs will not pass the hard limit set by laptop manufacturers. For instance a hard watt limit set on an intel CPU will only allow it to draw that much power which affects turbo blocks, same goes for nvidia GPU.

Even though the 1070 in my alienware will clock to 2Ghz given the 130W power allocated to it but it only will boost up to 2Ghz if it doesnt exceed 130W in the work load. Intel CPUs are different, even if not limited they will only clock up to their set clocks (CPU with 3Ghz boost clock will not exceed 3Ghz even in if conditions permit it).

MaxQ has nothing to do about designing it to clock lower, its about having a separate firmware that by default lets it start at lower clocks and where temperature and power is fine, the maxQ will clock up as much as it can. Part of the MaxQ tuning is to do with lower voltages, not lower clocks. So if you take a MaxQ 1080 and give it the same amount of power as a regular 1080, it will boost to the same clocks as nvidia GPUs boost more than their said clocks even at stock settings as its an update nvidia did to undercut AMD performance. They rolled out a free performance unlock that increased boost clocks when power and temps are there, and unlocked some low level stuff because my alienware's 1070 beat my vega FE GPU in blender by a couple seconds and the 1070N (laptop variant) is only slightly faster than the desktop 1070 at same clocks.

If you want to understand more, look at the specs of your GPU (boost clock), keep it at stock settings. Now run a monitoring software (GPUz, MSI afterburner, etc) and play a game, note the max clocks of the GPU and how long it stays at said max clocks and you will find that it will exceed manufacturer stated speeds if temperatures are good and power is there even at stock settings.
TSIncredibleNano
post Mar 15 2018, 11:13 PM

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QUOTE(System Error Message @ Mar 15 2018, 04:38 PM)
both intel CPUs and nvidia GPUs boost themselves up. Nvidia GPUs will boost themselves even more if temperature and power is there. However nvidia GPUs and intel CPUs will not pass the hard limit set by laptop manufacturers. For instance a hard watt limit set on an intel CPU will only allow it to draw that much power which affects turbo blocks, same goes for nvidia GPU.

Even though the 1070 in my alienware will clock to 2Ghz given the 130W power allocated to it but it only will boost up to 2Ghz if it doesnt exceed 130W in the work load. Intel CPUs are different, even if not limited they will only clock up to their set clocks (CPU with 3Ghz boost clock will not exceed 3Ghz even in if conditions permit it).

MaxQ has nothing to do about designing it to clock lower, its about having a separate firmware that by default lets it start at lower clocks and where temperature and power is fine, the maxQ will clock up as much as it can. Part of the MaxQ tuning is to do with lower voltages, not lower clocks. So if you take a MaxQ 1080 and give it the same amount of power as a regular 1080, it will boost to the same clocks as nvidia GPUs boost more than their said clocks even at stock settings as its an update nvidia did to undercut AMD performance. They rolled out a free performance unlock that increased boost clocks when power and temps are there, and unlocked some low level stuff because my alienware's 1070 beat my vega FE GPU in blender by a couple seconds and the 1070N (laptop variant) is only slightly faster than the desktop 1070 at same clocks.

If you want to understand more, look at the specs of your GPU (boost clock), keep it at stock settings. Now run a monitoring software (GPUz, MSI afterburner, etc) and play a game, note the max clocks of the GPU and how long it stays at said max clocks and you will find that it will exceed manufacturer stated speeds if temperatures are good and power is there even at stock settings.
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I did mention the lower power limit, and you reiterated regarding the here is a hard TDP limit. For the MaxQ it is 90-110W, while for the standard 1080 it can be much higher. Unless the manufacturer, in your case, Alienware, decides to put up a middle finger to NVIDIA, there is no way that it can match a literally higher powered card. Your Alienware 1070 is MaxQ? I don't know about Blender and the Vega FE comparison, but I took a quick look at http://blenchmark.com/gpu-benchmarks and I saw that the 1070 is way below the RX Vega, not sure how you got to that results either.

user posted image

I have seen Pascal GPUs boost beyond their specifications, but they weren't MaxQ. MaxQ dictates lower TDP and lower clocks due to the TDP limit. Anything beyond that TDP limit is probably against the whole concept of MaxQ, considering the max TDP is already specified for any laptop carrying the MaxQ labelling. Unless somehow Alienware cherry-picked GPUs that are extra efficient, I don't see how they can make up for the difference.
System Error Message
post Mar 16 2018, 10:20 AM

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QUOTE(IncredibleNano @ Mar 15 2018, 11:13 PM)
I did mention the lower power limit, and you reiterated regarding the here is a hard TDP limit. For the MaxQ it is 90-110W, while for the standard 1080 it can be much higher. Unless the manufacturer, in your case, Alienware, decides to put up a middle finger to NVIDIA, there is no way that it can match a literally higher powered card. Your Alienware 1070 is MaxQ? I don't know about Blender and the Vega FE comparison, but I took a quick look at http://blenchmark.com/gpu-benchmarks and I saw that the 1070 is way below the RX Vega, not sure how you got to that results either.

user posted image

I have seen Pascal GPUs boost beyond their specifications, but they weren't MaxQ. MaxQ dictates lower TDP and lower clocks due to the TDP limit. Anything beyond that TDP limit is probably against the whole concept of MaxQ, considering the max TDP is already specified for any laptop carrying the MaxQ labelling. Unless somehow Alienware cherry-picked GPUs that are extra efficient, I don't see how they can make up for the difference.
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my 1070 isnt maxQ and for my test i used the ryzen benchmark for blender using the GPU To render the entire thing as a single tile (fastest for GPU). 90W-110W is just a recommended TDP, the manufacturer can put any desired TDP That is lower or higher and i've seen some do that for CPUs putting a much lower TDP than designed. at 110W it would be difficult for a 1080 maxQ to boost further as it would be running efficiently, lower voltages for the clocks. If you have a maxQ laptop, try to see if you can lower voltages to get higher clocks.

Benchmarks may show that the 1070 is slower than vega but it may not be the case. The vega FE not only has 16GB of vram but also has a different driver to the regular vega. I also have the alienware AGA so i could use the same setup for comparing. Watch dogs 2 is a game where vega does better, it does not beat the titan xp but it takes less of a performance hit for increased visuals.

With OpenCL the 1070N performs about the same as the vega fe, with CUDA it is a bit faster. In order to test, i set the tile size to be the entire picture as thats when GPUs render it the fastest through bigger tile sizes otherwise vega would beat the 1070N with smaller tile sizes.

Edit: Alienware's set TDP for the 1070N is 130W, higher than the standard TDP for the 1070N. The Desktop 1070 also has a hard TDP set i believe, either by nvidia or board partners. Many attempts have been made to bypass these hard TDP limits through hardware hacking (theres a channel on youtube that does this with EEE) and found that regardless of the clocks you achieve your actual game performance is dependent on TDP so lower voltages gives you better performance. This is what maxQ is taking advantage off, running the silicon at its most efficient rather than maxing it out as the normal GPUs do. So a maxQ 1080 is 5-15% faster than the standard 1070N at standard TDPs, with the exception of alienware giving more power to get the same performance. So maxQ gives a bit more performance at less watts which is good if you hate heat and want good gaming battery life. If you buy alienware though you're probably not gaming on the go and even my alienware's battery lasts for 2 hours gaming, 10 hours not gaming. I doubt the ASUS ROG zephyrus can match the non gaming battery life.

This post has been edited by System Error Message: Mar 16 2018, 12:39 PM
TSIncredibleNano
post Mar 19 2018, 07:18 PM

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QUOTE(System Error Message @ Mar 16 2018, 10:20 AM)
my 1070 isnt maxQ and for my test i used the ryzen benchmark for blender using the GPU To render the entire thing as a single tile (fastest for GPU). 90W-110W is just a recommended TDP, the manufacturer can put any desired TDP That is lower or higher and i've seen some do that for CPUs putting a much lower TDP than designed. at 110W it would be difficult for a 1080 maxQ to boost further as it would be running efficiently, lower voltages for the clocks. If you have a maxQ laptop, try to see if you can lower voltages to get higher clocks.

Benchmarks may show that the 1070 is slower than vega but it may not be the case. The vega FE not only has 16GB of vram but also has a different driver to the regular vega. I also have the alienware AGA so i could use the same setup for comparing. Watch dogs 2 is a game where vega does better, it does not beat the titan xp but it takes less of a performance hit for increased visuals.

With OpenCL the 1070N performs about the same as the vega fe, with CUDA it is a bit faster. In order to test, i set the tile size to be the entire picture as thats when GPUs render it the fastest through bigger tile sizes otherwise vega would beat the 1070N with smaller tile sizes.

Edit: Alienware's set TDP for the 1070N is 130W, higher than the standard TDP for the 1070N. The Desktop 1070 also has a hard TDP set i believe, either by nvidia or board partners. Many attempts have been made to bypass these hard TDP limits through hardware hacking (theres a channel on youtube that does this with EEE) and found that regardless of the clocks you achieve your actual game performance is dependent on TDP so lower voltages gives you better performance. This is what maxQ is taking advantage off, running the silicon at its most efficient rather than maxing it out as the normal GPUs do. So a maxQ 1080 is 5-15% faster than the standard 1070N at standard TDPs, with the exception of alienware giving more power to get the same performance. So maxQ gives a bit more performance at less watts which is good if you hate heat and want good gaming battery life. If you buy alienware though you're probably not gaming on the go and even my alienware's battery lasts for 2 hours gaming, 10 hours not gaming. I doubt the ASUS ROG zephyrus can match the non gaming battery life.
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Based on what you are telling me, does Alienware enforce a higher power limit? If they do, aren't the throwing MaxQ and the whole goal of the thing out of the window? Or are you suggesting that the Alienware with the 1070N is better than the Zephyrus? And 10 hours non-gaming battery life? I believe we are looking at no G-SYNC in the Alienware? ROG Zephyrus runs G-SYNC so if you don't go through the trouble of disabling G-SYNC you won't get G-SYNC.
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post Mar 20 2018, 01:38 AM

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QUOTE(IncredibleNano @ Mar 19 2018, 07:18 PM)
Based on what you are telling me, does Alienware enforce a higher power limit? If they do, aren't the throwing MaxQ and the whole goal of the thing out of the window? Or are you suggesting that the Alienware with the 1070N is better than the Zephyrus? And 10 hours non-gaming battery life? I believe we are looking at no G-SYNC in the Alienware? ROG Zephyrus runs G-SYNC so if you don't go through the trouble of disabling G-SYNC you won't get G-SYNC.
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yup, the no gsync alienware. Ofcourse if i had the dedicated GPU on the battery life would drop down to 6 hours.

Alienware does enforce a higher power limit, i've seen the peak of the GPU to be 150W for the 1070N and alienware does have the 1080 maxq in the 15 and 17 inch chassis but it came after i had bought mine although i probably would not have chosen it because for me i need a portable powerhouse where battery life is important since im only using the GPU partly when coding while the IGP does a decent job at accelerating the graphics of virtual machines and running code too.

Intel IGP isnt that bad, the one on the i7 7700hq has decent performance, but the one on the skull canyon NUC is 3x faster, so picking out the alienware without gsync is worth it if as you get more compute power, and its cheaper than the variant with 1070N and gsync.

alienware has no issues with a 1080 maxq and while they do enforce higher power limits, if the GPU does not clock itself further you can always do so manually and see if its possible to increase the TDP as well as the board should be built to handle the amount of power. Its just the point of maxq was to be lower power, less heat so that thin and light laptops could have good performance only thin and light cant pack that much battery as the alienware has a 99whr battery which is the legal limit for a singular battery to carry on planes to US. The only issue with alienware is that the CPU cooling sucks so the CPU throttles. Its fixable with thermal paste and making sure the heatsink is mounted properly.

Even though the 1070N in laptops like alienware can be faster than the 1080 maxq while being cheaper, it does not discount the fact that the premium you pay for maxq goes into having a thinner, lighter laptop with the same performance but for big and bulky laptops, go with the non maxQ unless you plan to tweak the GPU and that the laptop has designed it with a higher TDP in mind. Afterall macbooks are way overpriced.

gsync/freesync is a bit of a weird thing in the laptop world. On a laptop you expect portability and it tends to ruin battery life, though the display ports do support gsync and freesync however some laptops are capable of switching the laptop display between the IGP and dGPU so you could enable/disable nvidia optimus for gsync and battery life (when not using gsync). If battery life is unimportant to you, gsync/freesync is worthwhile but some laptops do allow switching.
myway1985
post Mar 20 2018, 10:28 AM

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QUOTE(System Error Message @ Mar 20 2018, 01:38 AM)
yup, the no gsync alienware. Ofcourse if i had the dedicated GPU on the battery life would drop down to 6 hours.

Alienware does enforce a higher power limit, i've seen the peak of the GPU to be 150W for the 1070N and alienware does have the 1080 maxq in the 15 and 17 inch chassis but it came after i had bought mine although i probably would not have chosen it because for me i need a portable powerhouse where battery life is important since im only using the GPU partly when coding while the IGP does a decent job at accelerating the graphics of virtual machines and running code too.

Intel IGP isnt that bad, the one on the i7 7700hq has decent performance, but the one on the skull canyon NUC is 3x faster, so picking out the alienware without gsync is worth it if as you get more compute power, and its cheaper than the variant with 1070N and gsync.

alienware has no issues with a 1080 maxq and while they do enforce higher power limits, if the GPU does not clock itself further you can always do so manually and see if its possible to increase the TDP as well as the board should  be built to handle the amount of power. Its just the point of maxq was to be lower power, less heat so that thin and light laptops could have good performance only thin and light cant pack that much battery as the alienware has a 99whr battery which is the legal limit for a singular battery to carry on planes to US. The only issue with alienware is that the CPU cooling sucks so the CPU throttles. Its fixable with thermal paste and making sure the heatsink is mounted properly.

Even though the 1070N in laptops like alienware can be faster than the 1080 maxq while being cheaper, it does not discount the fact that the premium you pay for maxq goes into having a thinner, lighter laptop with the same performance but for big and bulky laptops, go with the non maxQ unless you plan to tweak the GPU and that the laptop has designed it with a higher TDP in mind. Afterall macbooks are way overpriced.

gsync/freesync is a bit of a weird thing in the laptop world. On a laptop you expect portability and it tends to ruin battery life, though the display ports do support gsync and freesync however some laptops are capable of switching the laptop display between the IGP and dGPU so you could enable/disable nvidia optimus for gsync and battery life (when not using gsync). If battery life is unimportant to you, gsync/freesync is worthwhile but some laptops do allow switching.
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the aw 15 r3 gtx 1080 max Q does hv an issue la.. i not sure the latest bios fix the fan issue or not.. but back when it launched.. i hv client complaint the fan doesnt really speed up when intense gaming.. thus the temperature easy cross 80.. n wat i get from reply is the bios issue
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post Mar 20 2018, 11:15 AM

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GL503VS is not bad for gaming, with gtx 1070 and all. But i would prefer MSI GE73 Raider as because the cooling system is slightly better than GL503VS ,and also the price is almost the same.

TSIncredibleNano
post Mar 20 2018, 07:35 PM

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QUOTE(HiAwak @ Mar 20 2018, 11:15 AM)
GL503VS is not bad for gaming, with gtx 1070 and all. But i would prefer MSI GE73 Raider as because the cooling system is slightly better than GL503VS ,and also the price is almost the same.
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you are comparing a 17" model versus a 15" model...
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post Mar 21 2018, 09:52 AM

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QUOTE(myway1985 @ Mar 20 2018, 10:28 AM)
the aw 15 r3 gtx 1080 max Q does hv an issue la.. i not sure the latest bios fix the fan issue or not..  but back when it launched.. i hv client complaint the fan doesnt really speed up when intense gaming.. thus the temperature easy cross 80..  n wat i get from reply is the bios issue
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by design, GPUs will operate at 80C from both nvidia and AMD in terms of cooling profiles.
myway1985
post Mar 21 2018, 10:15 AM

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QUOTE(System Error Message @ Mar 21 2018, 09:52 AM)
by design, GPUs will operate at 80C from both nvidia and AMD in terms of cooling profiles.
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but the technically maxq should be below 85 when full load.. but so far only msi manage to achieve in their highest range.. the GT titan... but tat price can buy myvi 2nd hand de
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post Mar 21 2018, 10:34 AM

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QUOTE(myway1985 @ Mar 21 2018, 10:15 AM)
but the technically maxq should be below 85 when full load.. but so far only msi manage to achieve in their highest range.. the GT titan... but tat price can buy myvi 2nd hand de
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my alienware even when overclocked with the 1070N does not exceed 80C. For me CPU cooling is more of an issue than GPU cooling.

Its more to do with how much cooling manufacturers design their laptops to handle. They expect the i7 to use 45W, but it uses 65W during turbo and is designed to run up to 105C safely so they design their cooling at the limit.

If you use hwinfo you can set a fan profile to run both the CPU and GPU cooler, couple with a good cooling fan it can really help.
myway1985
post Mar 21 2018, 02:26 PM

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QUOTE(System Error Message @ Mar 21 2018, 10:34 AM)
my alienware even when overclocked with the 1070N does not exceed 80C. For me CPU cooling is more of an issue than GPU cooling.

Its more to do with how much cooling manufacturers design their laptops to handle. They expect the i7 to use 45W, but it uses 65W during turbo and is designed to run up to 105C safely so they design their cooling at the limit.

If you use hwinfo you can set a fan profile to run both the CPU and GPU cooler, couple with a good cooling fan it can really help.
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tat y i early early mention is the 1080 maxq unit...
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post Mar 21 2018, 07:50 PM

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QUOTE(myway1985 @ Mar 21 2018, 02:26 PM)
tat y i early early mention is the 1080 maxq unit...
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the 1080 maxq does have more silicon than the 1070, so it can be harder to cool, however you can blame alienware for the lack of cooling too as its been in their blood. You'll need to mod your laptop for it to cool better. I'd at least make sure that the heatsink makes proper contact with the chip, VRMs and VRAMs, replacing the thermalpaste on the chips and only components that dont use a thermalpad. Doing so will significantly improve cooling especially when paired with a custom fan profile.

The less heat your chips run at, the more efficient they'll be so its worth doing some customisation, ensuring proper contact is maintained and using good thermalpaste.

You may want to check whether or not your 1080 maxq is running in spec or higher than stated which could also be an issue but a desired one probably.
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post Mar 21 2018, 09:11 PM

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QUOTE(System Error Message @ Mar 21 2018, 07:50 PM)
the 1080 maxq does have more silicon than the 1070, so it can be harder to cool, however you can blame alienware for the lack of cooling too as its been in their blood. You'll need to mod your laptop for it to cool better. I'd at least make sure that the heatsink makes proper contact with the chip, VRMs and VRAMs, replacing the thermalpaste on the chips and only components that dont use a thermalpad. Doing so will significantly improve cooling especially when paired with a custom fan profile.

The less heat your chips run at, the more efficient they'll be so its worth doing some customisation, ensuring proper contact is maintained and using good thermalpaste.

You may want to check whether or not your 1080 maxq is running in spec or higher than stated which could also be an issue but a desired one probably.
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memang need conductaut to cool it.. haha..

 

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