this is the mentality that i always have shun upon...
before the kara times, when doing 5 man instances before the stealth nerfs and what not, shamans and druids were always taken as "liability" in 5 man runs.

the only prefered healers were priests and paladins. now, I have a question... if the shamans and druids are ignored forever, how will they ever be able to gear up and help out in future raids. they may not shine in 5 mans, but they absolutely shine in raids.

same goes for a rogue, there are many trivial fights now that gives rogues a disadvantage. however im sure there are bosses that sitll requires rogues, and when ur up to those bosses... how are you gona do it with undergeard rogues that you have neglected?

not putting down on melee but just healing me one person is easier than healing an additional person. 2 ppl who can kite n kill their mob by themselves quicker than anything rather than a dps melee class who cant kite (probably can but cant kill it) the choice is pretty obvious. Its doable but reali u wouldnt understand how much simpler n smoother it is w/o a melee.

same goes for a rogue, there are many trivial fights now that gives rogues a disadvantage. however im sure there are bosses that sitll requires rogues, and when ur up to those bosses... how are you gona do it with undergeard rogues that you have neglected?

rollin with shamans makes happy melees, true story.

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Added on May 8, 2007, 5:30 pm

why kite when standing still shooting yields much higher dps?

so long ur tanking skills/gear to produce enough aggro/mitigation, tank multiple targets even in hard heroics isnt a big deal.

like the slave pens defenders, our tank tanks both of them anyways... sure, they hit me for 8-10k... but on a tank that has decent enough mitigation, and good healers, it doesnt matter. and i can kidneyshot them time to time... and no one have to kite... 1 goes down in mere seconds, and the other one being alone, doesnt pose a threat at all.

Rogues make some fights in kara much much esier....Aran for one...R&J as well

If ur dps is nuking a target and cant pull aggro, sry the dps aint good enuf.
But for eg : Double trinket pull defender, by the time the first defender reach me the one they are on almost dead. which is easier? =p Way more easier than waitin to heal for one and tank. And these are easy heroics. Maybe the harder ones like heroic SL n SH are a much noticable difference. I constantly have to get my guild mates attuned to trial of naaru quests, finding the most ideal setup is crucial to me as it is a tiresome chore to repeatly go in these annoying instances trust me. I nvr have to wait for sap or ask ppl wait awhile for aggro, just sheep n shaman n mage nuke their target along with the sp. i tank the rest n by the time they finish i have complete aggro on the rest for them to nuke. Its just nuke the whole way. SH questline done in 30mins to executioner? Doubt u can do that with a rogue. By no means again i say rogue is not viable, but when u have to the cumbersome duty of alwaz tanking some tedious instances a ranged group is just simply the best. Reach last boss switch ppl out zone in n finish the quest.

Again i stress i'm just pointing out on my version of an optimised 5man heroic setup. Rogues are definitely viable and have extreme dps but when compared on efficiency just not as good as ranged.
Ya surely but that's only 2 fights and in fact if u replace the rogues with shammies with 5secs shocks (with talents) and double bloodlust i would have just countered your argument.

that is seriously the dumbest shit ive heard for quite some time, seriously take creativity right there.

imo if you constantly get aggro pulled, sorry, its YOUR threat sucking or ur partty thinks its cool busting out trinkets and shit before the tank even manage to do shit.

and why need to wait for sap? rogues that pure dps dont sap anyways, waste of energy and time. just have the tank to tank that one additional guy and have heals stepped up a lil for just a short while.

and wait for dps? not sure what kinda of rogues you party with, but i sure as hell dont wait for dps. if the tank cant keep up to my innate -29% aggro, he prolly shouldnt be tanking in the first place anyways.

not sure on your "nuking ur whole way runs", but for my runs, so long i can get a pally or priest(resto shams will do too but its very stressful for them and they usually need to mana potion), that is well geared and have very good mana conservation skills, the whole group never need to drink at all until before bosses or hard pulls, just for the added safety. last mob 5-15ish% already pulling next pull.

if the caster dps cant keep up, he'll be left behind, i can pick up the slack anyways while he have to drink. that alone is speed. sure, shadow priest VT is good, but when trash mobs died under 10 sec or so, vt will actually drain more mana than returns, with the exception to the people excluding the shadow priest.

not to disagree that they are a liability within a 5man (especially heroics), i personally also think they are. even being a rogue myself. but what your putting out in argument here is flawed at best. try better.

sets: ok setup anyways lol... just the fury warrior part.

Tank n spank? Seriously its BC already.    Grow up already and shift out of that concept. Having them focus one mob first w/o even reaching me first is definitely better than having "the warrior tank one more additional mob". With this u just showed that ur primitive tank n spank method is infinitely slower than what i've just suggested.

I MT for my guild with magtheridon kill to our belt. Obviously i can hold my ground as a tank. Seeing that u havent pass kara, well what can i say. And judging from ur gear n gauging what dps u can do with it, i can eat fried rice and tank at the same time. 

As for running with well geared ppl,
http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/?#charac...9;Thos&n=Snakey
http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/characte...27Thos&n=Haukun

these are the 2 ppl i alwaz blaze thru heroics with. Just had an armory on ya and i can tell ur heroics are painful to run with. And assuming you're not boasting n telling the truth on ur strength of ur dps, imagine how much faster it is for my group to do it consider they can burst dmg like 100000000 times faster than u? lol. But just to reiterate i wasnt reali stressing on this point in the last post but rather how versatile these 2 classes with the ability to kite n an extra sheep where as all u have to offer is an occasional blind and taking dmg.

If u wanna diss ppl and sound almighty, at least have first hand experience of what content is like beyond heroic slave pens. Reading forum posts n watching videos are not the way to do it lol. And seriously kara is not that hard, my guild only raid 3 days a week and still able to down mag. Maybe u need to reconsider ur skill lvl. just a suggestion.  Thanks for challenging me in ur last post. Its been a while since i responded to clueless ppl. 

muahhahah drama again  

*graping pop corn n watch show*
opps.. working no pop corn

Slave Pens ---- ***** 1st boss havn drop my belt. but it's ez instance..
SteamVaults ---  2nd boss n 3rd boss.. 1 shot or wiped.
Underbog --- foc badge
Mana Tombs --- :\ tank no enuf shadow resist or i sux.. the only instance that i cant pass w/o off-heal
Sethekk Halls -- ez, last boss epic staff look kool !
Shadow Labs
Ramparts  -- foc badge
Blood Furnace-- 3 pull to last boss, free epic always.
Shattered Halls -- eh.. i hate the event. not really ready for it.
Mechanar --foc badge .
Botanica
Arcatraz
Escape from Durnhole -- er.. not hard, but not ez either.
Black Morass -- :shackhead:

crypts - foc badge

Slave Pens - easy. just a few mobs which are unCCable, so would need to be kited. 1st boss is tank and spank with a dps watching the totems. 2nd boss, as a druid healer, prolly would have to keep the tank up, with every range trying to stay max range and you HoT them when they get aoe damage. Last boss also the same. NR for last boss makes it a bit easier 
which boss no nid to keep tank up ?  2nd boss big heal top the HP so DOT-deep wood gone. 
only if enuf CC, else we skip straight to lass boss, the nr buff not really help much, 3rd boss is way ez anyways.

SteamVaults - a bit less easy. first boss is same as normal, 2nd boss is a balance between interrupting the healers and dpsing down the boss. warlord is cake
Underbog - between easy and medium difficulty. after the 2nd boss there are mobs which are un CCable and also the boglords which hit a truck and grow after a period of time. mini gruul ftw

Mana Tombs - first boss requires a tank with very high shadow resists or 2 healers. last boss is a dps fight. above medium difficulty

Sethekk Halls - not that hard, easier with shackle and careful of fearing mobs.

Shadow Labs - medium difficulty, have to be careful of the assassins in the inciter rooms while doing the big pulls

Ramparts - medium difficulty. just have to be aware of the pats. beware of doggie.

Blood Furnace - medium difficulty. 2nd boss is hard, best CC for this would be fear. There are fel guards near the end boss who hit a crap ton, sorta like the boglords in UB and SV bring a warlock cot disarm, ez like poring.

Shattered Halls - quite hard. especially on some of the pulls before the first and 2nd boss.

Mechanar - easy badge farming, recommended --so true.

Botanica - havent done, but people said it's not that hard.

Arcatraz - heroic arc make babies cry. true story. dont do unless you have a pally or priest for shadow resist

Escape from Durnhole - first 2 bosses are not hard. make sure you have a hunter tho, since there are pats that are on fast respawns (5mins iirc) which are un CC able and they'll summon 2 adds. if you have a hunter scatter shot them to pull they wont summon the adds (changed after patch to make it easier i think). epoch hunter is still hard tho and you only get 3 tries after you release thrall.

Black Morass   - damn hard, not needed for any heroic quests, just do it if you wanna test if you're keng or not

don't worry about burning your mana for the trash, short heals are the win for the crazy pulls. there's some fixes in the upcoming patch to help make heroics easier. like the cleave radius, and locks can seduce etc.

rollin with shamans makes happy melees, true story.

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Added on May 8, 2007, 5:30 pm

why kite when standing still shooting yields much higher dps?

so long ur tanking skills/gear to produce enough aggro/mitigation, tank multiple targets even in hard heroics isnt a big deal.

like the slave pens defenders, our tank tanks both of them anyways... sure, they hit me for 8-10k... but on a tank that has decent enough mitigation, and good healers, it doesnt matter. and i can kidneyshot them time to time... and no one have to kite... 1 goes down in mere seconds, and the other one being alone, doesnt pose a threat at all.

Rogues make some fights in kara much much esier....Aran for one...R&J as well

If ur........your argument.

As for running with well geared ppl,
http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/?#charac...9;Thos&n=Snakey
http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/characte...27Thos&n=Haukun

go supermarket buy, if ur office got pantry, can microwave it.. need the newer ones though.

and glad you enjoy the drama