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 Rear vs Front Brake

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TSIcehart
post Nov 6 2017, 02:45 PM

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QUOTE(ZZR-Pilot @ Nov 4 2017, 11:36 PM)
Adequate?

The rear brake is NEVER adequate to bring a speeding bike to a stop.

Never think of it as adequate or not adequate - you're supposed to rely on the front brake to stop.

That's why you get two massive petal floating discs + radial 4-pot calipers up front vs just one puny disc + simple 2-pot caliper in the rear.
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That's weird. The instructor at driving school taught to use rear brake first and only two fingers tapping on the front brake if it's not enough stopping power. hmm.gif

QUOTE(pineapplegrenade @ Nov 5 2017, 12:21 AM)
My advice, throttle control when cornering and lay off the brake. Braking is only be done before cornering. Braking while cornering, especially low cornering will reduce traction and may get you into wipe out. I pretty don't touch brake while cornering.
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Woo, thanks, learned new things again today.

QUOTE(Quazacolt @ Nov 5 2017, 12:04 PM)

Do yourself a favor and watch that, or Google/torrent better quality without Spanish subtitles obstructing

And I hope you meant that before, not when.
else consider yourself lucky for no low/high sides.

And think about why front brakes so much beefier/bigger than rear.
Also look at some MotoGP slow motion when they hard brake, notice how the rear lifts up.
Now imagine, how much braking power you have when your rear tire is off the ground? That's right - zero.
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thumbup.gif notworthy.gif
ZZR-Pilot
post Nov 6 2017, 03:07 PM

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QUOTE(Icehart @ Nov 6 2017, 03:45 PM)
That's weird. The instructor at driving school taught to use rear brake first and only two fingers tapping on the front brake if it's not enough stopping power.  hmm.gif
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That's what I was taught too back in the 90s. And that advice works somewhat on Yamaha XV535s whose weight bias is heavily towards the rear.

But on anything else, experience shows that if u rely on the rear to stop, there is a good tendency to lock up ur rear wheel... especially on wet roads.

You can tap the rear to initiate braking but as soon as the weight starts to transfer to the front (which happens quite quickly afterwards), you must use the front to do much of the braking.

But if you depend on the rear to do a significant portion of the stopping, you're asking for trouble.

Use the rear for control, use the front for braking/stopping.

Riders who ride on racetracks usually don't even bother touching the rear brake, except when they need to correct the rear or settle the rear suspension during cornering.
TSIcehart
post Nov 8 2017, 01:18 PM

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QUOTE(ZZR-Pilot @ Nov 6 2017, 03:07 PM)
That's what I was taught too back in the 90s. And that advice works somewhat on Yamaha XV535s whose weight bias is heavily towards the rear.

But on anything else, experience shows that if u rely on the rear to stop, there is a good tendency to lock up ur rear wheel... especially on wet roads.

You can tap the rear to initiate braking but as soon as the weight starts to transfer to the front (which happens quite quickly afterwards), you must use the front to do much of the braking.

But if you depend on the rear to do a significant portion of the stopping, you're asking for trouble.

Use the rear for control, use the front for braking/stopping.

Riders who ride on racetracks usually don't even bother touching the rear brake, except when they need to correct the rear or settle the rear suspension during cornering.
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I see. Thanks for the advise thumbup.gif
andrewhtf
post Nov 21 2017, 10:13 AM

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use both if you want better and safer stopping. front is for stopping power and rear is for stabilisation. that' what i am doing now.

some ppl use front only and ignore the rear. i used to do that many years back.

i am not gonna say which is right or wrong everybody has their own preference and style, but i am just saying using both is better.

anyway it is not about which brakes to use that is the crux of matter. it is when, where and how much braking to be applied, that should be your concern. get your throttle control sorted out first before thinking about which brakes to use.
amar_arifin
post Nov 21 2017, 11:01 AM

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how do manage brake when bS suv car change lane without signal..
n ur bike 8-10 meter only behind him..

how do u manage it?
i got accdent last week due to this BS driver...

thank God im just minor injured only..
mADmAN
post Nov 21 2017, 12:14 PM

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QUOTE(amar_arifin @ Nov 21 2017, 11:01 AM)
how do manage brake when bS suv car change lane without signal..
n ur bike 8-10 meter only behind him..

how do u manage it?
i got accdent last week due to this BS driver...

thank God im just minor injured only..
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good to know ur safe bro...

how to manage? the best u can... no way to confirm 100% this technique or that technique works... the most u can do is brake as hard as possible without tires locking up and also do ur best to avoid if theres space.


TSIcehart
post Nov 21 2017, 12:16 PM

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QUOTE(amar_arifin @ Nov 21 2017, 11:01 AM)
how do manage brake when bS suv car change lane without signal..
n ur bike 8-10 meter only behind him..

how do u manage it?
i got accdent last week due to this BS driver...

thank God im just minor injured only..
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Sorry to hear that, but whenever accident happens bikers are usually at the losing end, as in the injury. Best is to practice defensive riding and assume all cars will change direction.
ZZR-Pilot
post Nov 21 2017, 12:20 PM

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QUOTE(andrewhtf @ Nov 21 2017, 11:13 AM)
anyway it is not about which brakes to use that is the crux of matter. it is when, where and how much braking to be applied, that should be your concern. get your throttle control sorted out first before thinking about which brakes to use.
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That reminds me of an exercise we did during a racetrack skills workshop for superbikes in Sepang (PanGlobal Enduro 3, back in the early 2000s), where the instructors challenged us to ride 2 laps without ever touching the brake. It was all down to throttle control, gearing and engine braking. One over-eager weekend superbiker on a 916 still managed to crash out in the gravel doh.gif


QUOTE(amar_arifin @ Nov 21 2017, 12:01 PM)
how do manage brake when bS suv car change lane without signal..
n ur bike 8-10 meter only behind him..

how do u manage it?
i got accdent last week due to this BS driver...

thank God im just minor injured only..
*
10m is still good, depending on your speed.

The trick is to use your front brakes in a progressive manner. There is a difference between progressive braking and just grabbing a handful which simply locks up your front end and causing you to go sprawling on the tarmac. Easier said than done, though, and that's precisely why ABS has become an increasingly common feature on bikes.

Me, I try to remind myself to anticipate other assholes on the road. Following cautiously behind cars on a 600cc bike looks so uncool, compared to those big bikers who zip in and out of traffic, roaring away like heroes. But everybody knows 1001 things can go wrong on the road and when that happens, there is no escaping the excruciating pain that follows both physically and financially.

When driving my car, I try to remind myself to anticipate fuckwit bikers who are too dumb to afford themselves any measure of safety.

haturaya
post Nov 21 2017, 12:25 PM

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QUOTE(ZZR-Pilot @ Nov 21 2017, 12:20 PM)
That reminds me of an exercise we did during a racetrack skills workshop for superbikes in Sepang (PanGlobal Enduro 3, back in the early 2000s), where the instructors challenged us to ride 2 laps without ever touching the brake. It was all down to throttle control, gearing and engine braking. One over-eager weekend superbiker on a 916 still managed to crash out in the gravel doh.gif
10m is still good, depending on your speed.

The trick is to use your front brakes in a progressive manner. There is a difference between progressive braking and just grabbing a handful which simply locks up your front end and causing you to go sprawling on the tarmac. Easier said than done, though, and that's precisely why ABS has become an increasingly common feature on bikes.

Me, I try to remind myself to anticipate other assholes on the road. Following cautiously behind cars on a 600cc bike looks so uncool, compared to those big bikers who zip in and out of traffic, roaring away like heroes. But everybody knows 1001 things can go wrong on the road and when that happens, there is no escaping the excruciating pain that follows both physically and financially.

When driving my car, I try to remind myself to anticipate fuckwit bikers who are too dumb to afford themselves any measure of safety.
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Well addressed thumbup.gif

Defensive riding is the way to ride. thumbup.gif
andrewhtf
post Nov 21 2017, 01:41 PM

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QUOTE(ZZR-Pilot @ Nov 21 2017, 12:20 PM)
That reminds me of an exercise we did during a racetrack skills workshop for superbikes in Sepang (PanGlobal Enduro 3, back in the early 2000s), where the instructors challenged us to ride 2 laps without ever touching the brake. It was all down to throttle control, gearing and engine braking. One over-eager weekend superbiker on a 916 still managed to crash out in the gravel doh.gif
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i think i have heard of something like that but not early 2000s lah, late 2000s i think because a fren of mine attended something exactly like yours, instructor challenged his bunch to a brakeless ride and some guy on a ducati washed out. that friend of mine only picked up riding post-2008. maybe just dejavu history repeating itself

i did my first no-brake run back in 2012. now i do no-brakes at least once a month, mostly in gombak-sempah old road, or occasionally in bukit tinggi and kkb-Gap. it was slow run but the benefit after doing the run is great. may be scary for first timers but once you get the hang of it, basically you can ride like hooligan afterwards.

**edited to add story**

This post has been edited by andrewhtf: Nov 21 2017, 06:34 PM
BuncitPesonawan
post Nov 21 2017, 01:46 PM

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95% front
5% rear (only in emergency)
TanJy1814
post Nov 21 2017, 05:12 PM

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QUOTE(andrewhtf @ Nov 21 2017, 01:41 PM)
i was introduced to no-brake run back in 2012. now i do no-brakes at least once a month, mostly in gombak-sempah old road, or occasionally in bukit tinggi and kkb-fraser Gap. it was slow but the benefit after doing the run is great. may be scary for first timers but once you get the hang of it, basically you can ride like hooligan afterwards.
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Without brake?use engine breaking?
amar_arifin
post Nov 21 2017, 05:18 PM

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my bike dont have engine braking..
no ABS anyway..200 CC
after full braking front and rear..
just bounce on back of car..

anyway.i need to familiarize with track since i suppose to avoid this accident.,
for sure next time i know how to control my panic and bike while gelongsor..
andrewhtf
post Nov 21 2017, 06:28 PM

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QUOTE(TanJy1814 @ Nov 21 2017, 05:12 PM)
Without brake?use engine breaking?
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Yes. engine braking, gearing and throttle modulation.

But as you progress along to this technique, you would rely less on engine braking but more on throttle control - riding the correct constant speed, vision and riding lines while approaching and exiting corners so what you have is a smooth continuous non-stop riding all the way.

if you can handle such riding technique, then on a normal riding where brakes are to be used, you'd feel much more confident and in control.
Flyinghighaero
post Nov 21 2017, 11:00 PM

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You have to use both.

If you use only front brake the weight of the bike can shift and buckle the forks or twist the handle then throwing you off.

Using only rear tend to lock the wheels. Driving school taught this but you can lose your balance this way to.

Personally I lightly squeez front brake first then applying both brake. Balance this so you don't dip the front fork to much or lock the rear. Practice on you bike so you know how much brake to use. 1st time I did emergency braking I ended up not riding for a month. The bike has drum rear and I felt like I am being thrown forward of the bike
ZZR-Pilot
post Nov 21 2017, 11:18 PM

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QUOTE(andrewhtf @ Nov 21 2017, 02:41 PM)
i think i have heard of something like that but not early 2000s lah, late 2000s i think because a fren of mine attended something exactly like yours, instructor challenged his bunch to a brakeless ride and some guy on a ducati washed out. that friend of mine only picked up riding post-2008. maybe just dejavu history repeating itself
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Found the pic. It was 2003.



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TanJy1814
post Nov 21 2017, 11:30 PM

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QUOTE(andrewhtf @ Nov 21 2017, 06:28 PM)
Yes. engine braking, gearing and throttle modulation.

But as you progress along to this technique, you would rely less on engine braking but more on throttle control - riding the correct constant speed, vision and riding lines while approaching and exiting corners so what you have is a smooth continuous non-stop riding all the way.

if you can handle such riding technique, then on a normal riding where brakes are to be used, you'd feel much more confident and in control.
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Owh, I got it now. I though u do it even with normal riding like daily commute
andrewhtf
post Nov 22 2017, 11:31 AM

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QUOTE(TanJy1814 @ Nov 21 2017, 11:30 PM)
Owh, I got it now. I though u do it even with normal riding like daily commute
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do-able in daily commute, not the whole trip from home to workplace (vice versa) but maybe a certain stretch or segment of your travel. you'd do it subconciously though, coz it came from your confidence in being able to fully control your riding line and speed, AFTER you get used to practising it.

however the feel doesnt last, and due to city traffic conditions, bad riding habits will return. that is why i do it regularly, at least once a month - i call it recalibrating my throttle wrist.

if you intend to give it a try, i'd say find some quiet, low traffic roads where you can practise safely and minimise risk of accidents in case you make mistakes. the routes i mentioned earlier is my regular practise routes, but i suggest you go during non-peak hours, such as workdays morning or if weekends, choose late afternoon to evening where there is lesser crowd.

alternatively you can also test water abit by doing no-brakes while entering and exiting motorcycle slip road at the side of toll plaza. they usually have some curves there so what you do is enter at a comfortable speed you think you can handle, maintain a constant throttle the whole way while negotiating bends all the way till exiting, without having to use your brakes. again, ride at a speed that you can handle the curve without having to brake. repeat a few more times until you feel confident.

next instead of just the slip road, try doing it at the whole stretch of motorcycle lane. i have done a few times at federal hiway motor lane (subang-kerinchi-subang) but strictly during off-peak and i wont recommend for newbies. instead try guthrie hiway motor lane (mild and safe) or kesas motor lane (tricky but very good practise).

once you can do that then you can move on to gombak old route, bukit tinggi and kkb-gap. although i used to do no-brakes at titi/klawang, i wont recommend it anyway since it is a hotspot for OTHER PPL making mistake and fark your riding.

i can tell you that fun and thrill is not just reserved for high speed riding. slow speed no-brake can give newbies (to this technique) adrenalin too

QUOTE(ZZR-Pilot @ Nov 21 2017, 11:18 PM)
Found the pic. It was 2003.
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ok definitely different event. although the photos are low reso, i think i see some familiar face from SBM/Msportbike days. many of whom i dont think is riding anymore today.

This post has been edited by andrewhtf: Nov 22 2017, 11:33 AM

 

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