initial aggro, devastate sucks prior to 5 sunders

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Added on April 17, 2007, 12:00 pmthe block generates hate due to the fact that it generates rage from ur shield block talent.

still, compared to the other warrior skills that generate hate, its not enough to justify the rage usage for spamming shield block.

This post has been edited by Quazacolt: Apr 17 2007, 12:00 PM

Threat values:

I did not do the work to get these numbers and therefore I can't vouch for the accuracy or take credit for them. link to source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?t...=94319875&sid=1

These are before the defensive stance multiplier and defiance talent multiplier (which are additive afaik 1+.3+.15=1.45) and BEFORE damage to get a rough idea of how much threat you're pumping out from your attacks.

Sunder Armor (Rank 6) _________ 301
Heroic Strike (Rank 10) _______ 196
Heroic Strike (Rank 11) [book] _____220 (guess)
Revenge (Rank 8) _______________417
Shield Bash (Rank 4) _____________230
Shield Slam (Rank 6) _____________307
Devastate (Rank All)______________101
Thunder Clap (Rank All)___________+75%dmg
Cleave (Rank 6) _________________130 (split)
Disarm_________________________104
Mocking Blow (Rank 6) ___________290
Demoralizing Shout (Rank 7) ______ 56 (split)
Battleshout (Rank 8) _____________ 69 (split)
Commanding Shout ______________68 (split)
Hamstring (Rank 4) ______________181
Excecute (Rank All)_______________0 (nostance)
Spell Reflect ____________________0
Piercing Howl ____________________0
Concussion Blow _________________0

Like Reis above says, swapping gear improves your versatility in 5 mans. It was the same in vanilla wow, you really couldn't tank in 5 mans in your raid gear (well you could but it was always more efficient to tank those instances in DPS gear) because you may have already outgeared those instances. +hit gear is great for tanking but note that it doesn't get rid of the mob's ability to block/dodge and parry your blows.

With my current level of gearing, i don't feel comfortable dps tanking as yet. However neither am i tanking in my raid gear. I have a nice in between set which i use for 5 mans which prioritises block value. It uses a combination of tbc blues and lvl 60 epics and i find that the aggro i get with 550 block value shield slams far exceeds threat that can be pumped out by dpsers. My max shield slam so far in the game is just below 2100 damage, however finding mobs with 0 armor is not realistic. Crits of 1600 and above are not rare though. With the innate threat value of 307 above i can get about 2.7k+ threat from a single shield slam crit.

You can tell from the threat guide above that sunder with static threat of 301 is easily outstripped by anything with innate threat+damage>300 for threat. So really it shouldn't be the major threat generator for a protection warrior.

I personally use heroic strikes a lot. But how much I use it depends on how much threat I need to frontload. Innate threat above is 196 and the extra damage from HS is around the same as well at 176, resulting in 533 extra threat in addition to the threat you would have done normally from your white hit damage (also the 176 extra damage can crit!). All well and good but you also lose out on the rage you would have gotten from the white hit, which means to cause the extra 533 or more threat you would have used more than 9/12/15 (depending on talents) rage.

So it's really depends on whether the rage income from mob damage is sufficient to spam heroic strikes or to hold back to use your instants when you're not getting hit. It's encounter dependant on whether you want to maximise threat per rage or threat per second.

i'm beginning to think that playing a prot warrior isn't easy compared to a bear druid. just for the simple reason that there's less buttons to worry about.

Anyhow, there's also another link on WoWWiki.com on some other moves from classes regarding threat geneation. Unfortuntely WoWWiki.com is down atm for some database maintenance so couldn't link it.

Not sure if this is the right thread, but since we're talking bout warriors... so...

I'm in the midst of leveling up a warr to be a tank in my guild. One concern I have though is the 'unstable' connection we have. On good days, leveling my warrior is a beauty, whereas on bad days, better I log and do something else...

Since we've got some warriors/tanks in the forums, I was just wondering how do you guys deal with it? I mean... you cant really tank with 1 - 1.5K lag rite?

p/s: Nationalism-wise, its quite embarassing cause guildies are not lagging, e.g. those in SG, AUS, HK, PHP, etc. but I am... LOL.

Guildies tell me to change ISP, I say... no other choice, and they go... wtf...???

good stuff

one question: why the threat created by devestate is so little only? i dont think its worthy to be a 41 point talent

The threat is not as bad as it looks.

sunder=301 threat + 0 damage threat

devastate =101 innate threat +(125 to 300 damage?) threat
=225 to 401 threat with a chance of critting

So there's 2 effects, increased threat and secondly actually doing some damage.

As long as you're hitting for more than 200 with devastate you'll be generating more threat than sunder. Sure it's an underwhelming 41 point talent but are endless rage and rampage any better?

In the next patch devastate will hit with both weapons if dual wielding so that's a damned nice buff for prot warriors while grinding and for raid dps (if required eg aran). see: http://surl.se/akoc

Side note.. at the moment, my nub level 68 shadow priest without any aggro reduction talents is generating between 400-500 dps before you take into consideration high threat attacks like mindblast and SW:death. Probably in raid situations, I would need to generate >600 threat per second to keep up with raid damage and that's even after considering effects like Blessing of salvation.

Lag is a perception. There are days when I don't lag and everyone else does. Poetic justice.

My healer's tag line : better get geared well coz I lag. U're going to have to take 50% hit before I get out of lag.

That was my tag line when feral tanking too. Hee hee!

That's one of the main reasons why i specced protection. I noticed i couldn't keep up with threat on vael and my ping was at about 1000. The tank transitions were bad enough as we didn't use ktm at the time. I was tanking on the Prince the other night with about 1-1.2k ping, it wasn't as much fun as it could have been but it was doable. However trash mobs are a lot harder to handle with that type of ping.

My guildies know that i lag a 'bit' though so maybe they hold back slightly.

This post has been edited by Kidicarus: Apr 17 2007, 04:01 PM

hmm even with only single mob i intent to screw up due to my sunder being miss,parry,dodge,blok ....if everything goes well with 3 sunders i can hold aggro from destuc lock, shadow priest and fire mage not to mention mm hunters

do u guys think +hit gear is important just for 5men instance? such as sl,sv,arca,bm,mech,bota ?

also as for multi mob i use to tab+sunder+thunderclap+cleave+demo shout+tab+sunder i always tab + sunder for multi mobs....is just tat one thing screw out tis is that those cced mobs are way too near to my and if i tab too fast i could hit them....if i try to pull those mob and change places, those dps fella still shooting like hell and i will lost aggro,

so sad tat day a shadow priest asked me that is am proc spec or not? i say i am but he say i am not so he checked my armory and found out i am arms spec, due to tat day before that instance i baru only reset to full proc cuz before tat i am half arm half proc...curse that armory for screwing me up....also some noob of that priest cant know how devestate animation was....devestate animation currently just like rogue eviscrate..and that time we dont even have a ROGUE

tis is y i like to go instance only with my frens cuz they know wat they are doing, if go with strangers they wil just *** 9 u if u screw up

i am still working on my gears to get gaunlets of bold at last boss in sv, but that f***er does wan to drop it, and i am revered now since i go sv from honered...



This post has been edited by intothefantasy: Apr 17 2007, 06:25 PM

er i still have 12.8k hp with that gear setup as a undead war,swap out some gears(like t4 gloves)my hp can reach 13.3k and around 23%dodge 15%parry 24%block.


maybe its my latency problem causing my threat per second low,and my shadow priest friend who have more than 1k shadow damage can reach 700~900 tps...its really hard to hold aggro from him if he dont have blessing of salvation.

5men instance?u mean normal one?we usually just aoe those trash mobs XD
anyway u can use ur dps gear with shield on so you have better tps for normal instance.(or high block value gear..if u love big number shield slam)

This post has been edited by eternallove: Apr 17 2007, 09:06 PM

Some good info here.

I typically warn my other party members when my connection is bad say 800-1000 latency. Guildees are more understanding, so I dont get too much flak. With the jerks you sometimes come across in PUGs, they will just hentam you till flowers come out

Usually its not too much of a problem with single mobs except for timing sensitive bosses like Murmur*. Multimobs are harder since you have to press a shitload of buttons and the bad latency just messes it up.

* I beladi hate this boss when my latency is bad. with 1k latency you better have damn good reflexes to get out of way of the sonic boom. Or have a good heal crew to just heal you through it.

This post has been edited by limsk: Apr 17 2007, 09:07 PM

multi-mob tanking u shouldnt be starving on rage.

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Added on April 17, 2007, 9:27 pmhm....i have full kara gear but dun get those stats?

This post has been edited by Kurei: Apr 18 2007, 10:56 PM

@ reis - checked your build, why do you have imp sunder when you have devestate? and also you already mention that you dont often use sunder to hold aggro i believe those points can be spent somewhere else biggrin.gif ((((QUOTE))))

Erm its like this. Initial aggro although is short, but it impacts the entire fight greatly, so 3 points in imp sunder is really important even if its only at the start of the fight. Besides in multi tanking ur gonna be sundering a lot more hehe.

Another thing about HS, forgot if I mentioned it already. Is that as a tank we get so many dodge miss parry, the HS + GCD skill negates the effect a little. Lets say my HS dint land, I still can rely on my GCD to generate the threat and vice versa. If both lands, more threat, if both dont land, least I had more chances isnt it?

Another trick I found out to counter the even dreaded TAUNT RESIST!! Lets say when you pull, make sure ur HS is already lighted up BEFORE the mob comes close. Its on next attack so whenever ur in range you will whack the mob with HS, thats a lot of initial threat. After that, taunt. And since none of those eats ur GCD, whack in a sunder or even better, SS. With this you greatly reduce the chances of the mob running past you. If all fails, immediately switch to battle stance and mocking blow it, still fail, faster use challanging shout. STILL FAIL!!! QQ ba lol. Maybe if ur taunt is back up at this time still ok, if not, really QQ lol.

Anyway, theres really some talented tanks in this forum, sorry to not quote or stuff cuz I barely have time on the forums and might have made repetitions ><

Also heres a very nice link, hope it will help.

http://www.evilempireguild.org/guides/index.php


P/S sorry for the mess, really forum nub -.-

This post has been edited by Reis: Apr 17 2007, 09:38 PM

there reali is no reason that the mob initially will run pass u. What greatly reduces the chances of the mob running past u is ur group. When pulling with every1 being idle waitin to heal or dps there is no reason that the mob should run pass u. And if talkin about a single mob/boss pull, shield block first is alwaz the way to go. Pretty sure most prot warriors have imp bloodrage specced, one shield block leaves u only one rage short of a shield slam. Shield block,white hit, shield slam. Its practically instant and revenge is light up for ur next highest threat generating move. Doin this does not starve ur rage initially n pretty much guarantees the max threat generated possible.

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Added on April 17, 2007, 9:47 pm5 sunders up and its worth alot more.

This post has been edited by Kurei: Apr 17 2007, 09:47 PM

different gems choice?lol
whats ur stats now?if u have full kara gear..ur hp should have more than 12k and similiar avoidance stats O_o

I definitely do not hit 26% dodge. 12.8k hp 21% dodge. And i only socket helm chest shoulders wif full +12stm gems n 18stm meta socket. The rest i go accordingly to color gems i.e red wif +8dodge blue wif +12stm yellow wif +6stm 4def. Can i see ur armory for comparison pls.

This post has been edited by Kurei: Apr 17 2007, 09:55 PM

[quote=Kurei,Apr 17 2007, 09:45 PM]
there reali is no reason that the mob initially will run pass u. What greatly reduces the chances of the mob running past u is ur group. When pulling with every1 being idle waitin to heal or dps there is no reason that the mob should run pass u. And if talkin about a single mob/boss pull, shield block first is alwaz the way to go. Pretty sure most prot warriors have imp bloodrage specced, one shield block leaves u only one rage short of a shield slam. Shield block,white hit, shield slam. Its practically instant and revenge is light up for ur next highest threat generating move. Doin this does not starve ur rage initially n pretty much guarantees the max threat generated possible.


Really this is just a matter of playstyle and also the playstyle of ur guild. As for my guild we rarely hold back for aggro. Pull and start DPSing. Raid or 5 mans, same thing. We're a DPS guild and any holdbacks will make us QQ so the responsibility of a tank is a lot higher. My lvl might be low but thats cuz I started BC very very late, so hope this clears out some doubts that I'm not raiding yet. If the only thing I want is for the mob to stay at me, I just need to battleshout and it will come to me. But when people hit right at the start, thats not going to help, the mob will run past you if ur taunt fails.

No offence buddy, you have your point. But you said it yourself if everyone stays idle, thats not the case for me and some of the guilds, so really its a matter of playstyle.

Yes i understand what ur saying, but if ur reali about optimising dps there's no reason ppl start dps early. tank's threat is build progressively not instantly maintained and my guild is heavily dpsed too. And what i suggested is reali pretty much true, u actuali get the group to have a higher dps output over time. But yeah if ur talking about 5mans exclusively its completely different. lol. my guildies do not even wait for pull and they jsut pull n kite it and i dun even have to care about it. If i have a better com i would fraps our slave pen runs lol its less than a 30min run. (druid,rogue,mage,ele shaman n me n seriously ele shamans are way OPed.)

Ohh I friggin hate it when they just DPS down everything wrecklessly, tsk AoEing mages and people that rushes in. Sure no one dies but I feel useless as a tank lol.

Btw about the DPS, certain fights we really need to be fast. I cannot tell about anything beyond MC, because beyond MC I'm a priest, as a warrior I only played till Raggy. So 1 example, is Arlokk and Moam. When we were a young guild we wiped at Arlokk so much that we finally got fedup and decided to mass load DPS, we killed her before she can vanish the second time. As for Moam, we killed him before he summoned his elementals. In these situations those are really important o.0

Heres some breakdowns. Hunters is out of the question, 0 threat problem. My guild's rogue will vanish at a certain period so they will never out aggro me. Mages, I dont know, for some reason never had a problem with them. The only class that I'll limit to not blast at the start are locks. Because the aggro they generate is just too humongous. But with the recent new skill they got, maybe it can fix the situation a bit? We tanks have spike aggro too, added with other classes' threat reduction abilities we can really go all out without them chasing up.

Just my 2cents based on actual experience Btw still waiting to see your tank armory bro.


Edit
That being said, I'm not saying its entirely impossible for them to catch up, they can if they really want to, in the end holding aggro is a 80% tank 20% teamwork. But what we can do is maximise their DPS

This post has been edited by Reis: Apr 17 2007, 10:19 PM

haha. will be respeccing tomorrow and u can click my armory link then. Just respec to farm for god damn primals to make my epic resist set for ssc. so tiresomeeeeeeeeeeeeee. i have pretty nice dps gear too.

This post has been edited by Kurei: Apr 17 2007, 10:22 PM