Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Outline · [ Standard ] · Linear+

> Electrical Wire, 2.5mm but with smaller copper

views
     
TSubeyou
post Sep 5 2017, 08:34 PM, updated 7y ago

DreamX
****
Senior Member
689 posts

Joined: Oct 2007
From: Zimbabwe



Hi,

While my unit undergoing renovation, I noticed my contractor is using 2.5mm china made wire with smaller copper for 1.0HP, 1.5HP aircond and water heater.
I've compare it with standard Sirim approved wire, and it's indeed thinner & easier to bent.

Should I request for a change? I worried heavy usage results wire melt then lead a fire in the house.

Thanks.
sonerin
post Sep 5 2017, 08:45 PM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
8,690 posts

Joined: Aug 2009
It's very dangerous as I got con last time as well with china man wire. Is a must to ask to change
fireballs
post Sep 5 2017, 08:47 PM

10101
*******
Senior Member
5,627 posts

Joined: Mar 2012
Yes insist. Else report to teeam
Richard
post Sep 5 2017, 08:50 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,083 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Kota Kinabalu


QUOTE(ubeyou @ Sep 5 2017, 08:34 PM)
Hi,

While my unit undergoing renovation, I noticed my contractor is using 2.5mm china made wire with smaller copper for 1.0HP, 1.5HP aircond and water heater.
I've compare it with standard Sirim approved wire, and it's indeed thinner & easier to bent.

Should I request for a change? I worried heavy usage results wire melt then lead a fire in the house.

Thanks.
*
Yes.. Those thin hair like strands cannot carry full load current and will fail..

Find the full size (cross section area) solid hard drawn copper as conductor wire..
TSubeyou
post Sep 5 2017, 08:53 PM

DreamX
****
Senior Member
689 posts

Joined: Oct 2007
From: Zimbabwe



QUOTE(sonerin @ Sep 5 2017, 08:45 PM)
It's very dangerous as I got con last time as well with china man wire. Is a must to ask to change
*
QUOTE(fireballs @ Sep 5 2017, 08:47 PM)
Yes insist. Else report to teeam
*
QUOTE(Richard @ Sep 5 2017, 08:50 PM)
Yes..  Those thin hair like strands cannot carry full load current and will fail..

Find the full size (cross section area) solid hard drawn copper as conductor wire..
*
Thanks. How about for normal lighting? He's using it for 2.5mm china wire for it too. I heard 1.5mm is good enough for normal lighting.

This post has been edited by ubeyou: Sep 5 2017, 08:58 PM
fireballs
post Sep 5 2017, 09:21 PM

10101
*******
Senior Member
5,627 posts

Joined: Mar 2012
Lighting is OK 1.5
But insist on sirim approved wires.

Insist also 3 elcb
100ma for lighting
30ma for socket
10ma for shower

Try not to loop the wires to form a ring circuit .
Ask to use radial circuit which is safer
sonerin
post Sep 5 2017, 09:24 PM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
8,690 posts

Joined: Aug 2009
QUOTE(ubeyou @ Sep 5 2017, 08:53 PM)
Thanks. How about for normal lighting? He's using it for 2.5mm china wire for it too. I heard 1.5mm is good enough for normal lighting.
*
As long as is china brand is very dangerous
TSubeyou
post Sep 5 2017, 09:31 PM

DreamX
****
Senior Member
689 posts

Joined: Oct 2007
From: Zimbabwe



QUOTE(fireballs @ Sep 5 2017, 09:21 PM)
Lighting is OK 1.5
But insist on sirim approved wires.

Insist also 3 elcb
100ma for lighting
30ma for socket
10ma for shower

Try not to loop the wires to form a ring circuit .
Ask to use radial circuit which is safer
*
Thanks. I think the original circuit is using radial type. The worker just joins them for sockets.


QUOTE(sonerin @ Sep 5 2017, 09:24 PM)
As long as is china brand is very dangerous
*
But why they are still available in the market? I saw many hardware shops are selling it, and sirim approved hardly available in normal hardware shops (Melaka) except electrical appliances store.
fireballs
post Sep 5 2017, 10:10 PM

10101
*******
Senior Member
5,627 posts

Joined: Mar 2012
there are plenty of legit distributors lah.. in fact some cables are made in melaka
heck even homepro tesco should also have the legit cables.
u can buy the cables and ask contractors to lay.


sonerin
post Sep 5 2017, 10:14 PM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
8,690 posts

Joined: Aug 2009
QUOTE(ubeyou @ Sep 5 2017, 09:31 PM)
Thanks. I think the original circuit is using radial type. The worker just joins them for sockets.
But why they are still available in the market? I saw many hardware shops are selling it, and sirim approved hardly available in normal hardware shops (Melaka) except electrical appliances store.
*
They people want it cheap and also lack safety concern.
weikee
post Sep 5 2017, 10:34 PM

10k Club
********
All Stars
12,019 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
QUOTE(ubeyou @ Sep 5 2017, 08:34 PM)
Hi,

While my unit undergoing renovation, I noticed my contractor is using 2.5mm china made wire with smaller copper for 1.0HP, 1.5HP aircond and water heater.
I've compare it with standard Sirim approved wire, and it's indeed thinner & easier to bent.

Should I request for a change? I worried heavy usage results wire melt then lead a fire in the house.

Thanks.
*
How much did he quote you per point?
idealhometech
post Sep 5 2017, 11:00 PM

NCS
*****
Senior Member
917 posts

Joined: Oct 2010
From: Yen Lee NCS Enterprise (Seri Kembangan)
QUOTE(ubeyou @ Sep 5 2017, 08:34 PM)
Hi,

While my unit undergoing renovation, I noticed my contractor is using 2.5mm china made wire with smaller copper for 1.0HP, 1.5HP aircond and water heater.
I've compare it with standard Sirim approved wire, and it's indeed thinner & easier to bent.

Should I request for a change? I worried heavy usage results wire melt then lead a fire in the house.

Thanks.
*
Don't use China Cable.. Fake Copper!! Very Dangerous..
Must buy Local Sirim Approved Wire.

If got budget, use thicker wire, like 4mm for Water Heater.
Aircond if direct no looping, for 1.5hp 2.5mm OK.
thailover
post Sep 6 2017, 07:20 AM

Getting Started
**
Junior Member
180 posts

Joined: Nov 2014
From: Kuala Lumpur


Depends how much he quoted you. If you want low price, they will use all kind of funny cables.

I used Mega Cable which is taikor in the industry.

Paid RM35k to redo for my 2 storey shop.
TSubeyou
post Sep 6 2017, 07:48 AM

DreamX
****
Senior Member
689 posts

Joined: Oct 2007
From: Zimbabwe



QUOTE(fireballs @ Sep 5 2017, 10:10 PM)
there are plenty of legit distributors lah.. in fact some cables are made in melaka
heck even homepro tesco should also have the legit cables.
u can buy the cables and ask contractors to lay.
*
QUOTE(idealhometech @ Sep 5 2017, 11:00 PM)
Don't use China Cable.. Fake Copper!! Very Dangerous..
Must buy Local Sirim Approved Wire.

If got budget, use thicker wire, like 4mm for Water Heater.
Aircond if direct no looping, for 1.5hp 2.5mm OK.
*
QUOTE(sonerin @ Sep 5 2017, 10:14 PM)
They people want it cheap and also lack safety concern.
*
Thanks for the advice. Malaysia should ban all china wires.

QUOTE(weikee @ Sep 5 2017, 10:34 PM)
How much did he quote you per point?
*
QUOTE(thailover @ Sep 6 2017, 07:20 AM)
Depends how much he quoted you. If you want low price, they will use all kind of funny cables.

I used Mega Cable which is taikor in the industry.

Paid RM35k to redo for my 2 storey shop.
*
35k just for wiring alone?

Just bought the 100m Sirim Approved 2.5mm wires myself for about RM80. Apparent it is still cheap compared to what I paid for each aircond.
thailover
post Sep 6 2017, 07:49 AM

Getting Started
**
Junior Member
180 posts

Joined: Nov 2014
From: Kuala Lumpur


See photos. I have 320 power points and lots of aircond points.

Mega Kabel is no doubt the best cable available in Malaysia. Try not to loop so many points with a set of cable. Mine maximum 3 points. Some 2 points only.




Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image Attached Image
sonerin
post Sep 6 2017, 08:26 AM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
8,690 posts

Joined: Aug 2009
QUOTE(ubeyou @ Sep 6 2017, 07:48 AM)
Thanks for the advice. Malaysia should ban all china wires.
35k just for wiring alone?

Just bought the 100m Sirim Approved 2.5mm wires myself for about RM80. Apparent it is still cheap compared to what I paid for each aircond.
*
I did for my 2 story house cost me about RM22k for wire and labour. Of course also include change to 3 phase
sonerin
post Sep 6 2017, 08:27 AM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
8,690 posts

Joined: Aug 2009
QUOTE(thailover @ Sep 6 2017, 07:49 AM)
See photos. I have 320 power points and lots of aircond points.

Mega Kabel is no doubt the best cable available in Malaysia. Try not to loop so many points with a set of cable. Mine maximum 3 points. Some 2 points only.
*
Mega cable is high quality
acbc
post Sep 6 2017, 08:31 AM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
8,476 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
Don't use China wires. Not even pure copper.
weikee
post Sep 6 2017, 08:42 AM

10k Club
********
All Stars
12,019 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
QUOTE(ubeyou @ Sep 6 2017, 07:48 AM)
Thanks for the advice. Malaysia should ban all china wires.
35k just for wiring alone?

Just bought the 100m Sirim Approved 2.5mm wires myself for about RM80. Apparent it is still cheap compared to what I paid for each aircond.
*
Depending on the points, one rim will not be sufficient. You need Red and Black per point, this mean 1 rim for one color. Having live 2.5mm, and neutral lousy cable also useless.

Not sure of the work you need to do and size of house, that is why i am asking how much did you got the work for? Mine was around 15-18k in 2011 for double story, two DB box (each per floor), single phase. In total think i have about 40 MCBs with 10 for AC and Heater. 90% of my house socket have no loop, all direct with individual MCB, maybe handful are loop.

35k is not much if there are many points and good material are used. Some office required GI piping which is very costly too.


Always remember pay peanut. I do have friend who got quote RM 80 per points including socket, but after 1/2 way he decided to redo it and end up paying more. The quality of the wires, workmanship and material is really bad. Will be lucky if the house didn't caught fire.

This post has been edited by weikee: Sep 6 2017, 08:51 AM
TSubeyou
post Sep 6 2017, 08:59 AM

DreamX
****
Senior Member
689 posts

Joined: Oct 2007
From: Zimbabwe



QUOTE(weikee @ Sep 6 2017, 08:42 AM)
Depending on the points, one rim may not be sufficient. You need Red and black per point, this mean 1 rim for one color. Having live 2.5mm, and neutral lousy cable also useless.

Not sure of the work you need to do and size of house. Mine was around 15-18k in 2011 for double story, two DB box (each per floor), single phase.
*
I've bought 2 rims. Yellow and Black.

Mine is 1 storey & existing wires (4mm for everything) still there. Contractor just needs to pull 6 aircond, 2 water heater and 6 plugs & 4 lighting points, can't estimate due to some adjustments, but roughly about 5k. Only little hacks needed as conduit were ready for aircond & plug point.

This post has been edited by ubeyou: Sep 6 2017, 09:01 AM
weikee
post Sep 6 2017, 09:04 AM

10k Club
********
All Stars
12,019 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
QUOTE(ubeyou @ Sep 6 2017, 08:59 AM)
I've bought 2 rims. Yellow and Black.

Mine is 1 storey & existing wires (4mm for everything) still there. Contractor just needs to pull 6 aircond, 2 water heater and 6 plugs & 4 lighting points, can't estimate due to some adjustments, but roughly about 5k. Only little hacks needed as conduit were ready for aircond & plug point.
*
If only wiring work for 5k, Your price is way higher. I would feel 3k+- are more reasonable for that kind of work.
Zot
post Sep 6 2017, 09:07 AM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
7,592 posts

Joined: Mar 2014
QUOTE(sonerin @ Sep 6 2017, 08:26 AM)
I did for my 2 story house cost me about RM22k for wire and labour. Of course also include change to 3 phase
*
So expensive shocking.gif

Change from 1 to 3 phase is just divide the existing wire into 3 separate group only
TSubeyou
post Sep 6 2017, 09:10 AM

DreamX
****
Senior Member
689 posts

Joined: Oct 2007
From: Zimbabwe



QUOTE(weikee @ Sep 6 2017, 09:04 AM)
If only wiring work for 5k, Your price is way higher. I would feel 3k+- are more reasonable for that kind of work.
*
My mistake as I've included air cond, lighting & fan installation sweat.gif , pricing should be around 3k+ too.

This post has been edited by ubeyou: Sep 6 2017, 09:11 AM
Zot
post Sep 6 2017, 09:19 AM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
7,592 posts

Joined: Mar 2014
QUOTE(ubeyou @ Sep 5 2017, 08:34 PM)
Hi,

While my unit undergoing renovation, I noticed my contractor is using 2.5mm china made wire with smaller copper for 1.0HP, 1.5HP aircond and water heater.
I've compare it with standard Sirim approved wire, and it's indeed thinner & easier to bent.

Should I request for a change? I worried heavy usage results wire melt then lead a fire in the house.

Thanks.
*
The maximum current load capacity is not as simple as measuring wire size. It also depends on how the electrical wires are laid in the house.

Surrounded by thermal insulation including in a stud wall with thermal insulation with cable not touching the wall
Cable size to Rating in Amps
1.5mm > 10A
2.5mm > 13.5A
4.00mm > 17.5A
6.00mm > 23.5A

Clipped direct to the wall
Cable size to Rating in Amps
1.5mm > 20A
2.5mm > 27A
4mm > 37A
6mm > 47A
ozak
post Sep 6 2017, 09:44 AM

10k Club
********
All Stars
16,546 posts

Joined: Jan 2005


QUOTE(Zot @ Sep 6 2017, 09:19 AM)
The maximum current load capacity is not as simple as measuring wire size. It also depends on how the electrical wires are laid in the house.

Surrounded by thermal insulation including in a stud wall with thermal insulation with cable not touching the wall
Cable size to Rating in Amps
1.5mm > 10A
2.5mm > 13.5A
4.00mm > 17.5A
6.00mm > 23.5A

Clipped direct to the wall
Cable size to Rating in Amps
1.5mm > 20A
2.5mm > 27A
4mm > 37A
6mm > 47A
*
Nowaday, I use 2.5mm for light and 4mm for wall socket.

And prefer 2-3set of db box. (double storey house) Hall, Kitchen and 2nd flr.
Zot
post Sep 6 2017, 09:47 AM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
7,592 posts

Joined: Mar 2014
QUOTE(ozak @ Sep 6 2017, 09:44 AM)
Nowaday, I use 2.5mm for light and 4mm for wall socket.

And prefer 2-3set of db box. (double storey house) Hall, Kitchen and 2nd flr.
*
Did you pull separate cable to db from main fuse? That big cable is expensive smile.gif
sonerin
post Sep 6 2017, 10:08 AM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
8,690 posts

Joined: Aug 2009
QUOTE(Zot @ Sep 6 2017, 09:07 AM)
So expensive  shocking.gif

Change from 1 to 3 phase is just divide the existing wire into 3 separate group only
*
Not just as simple as that. You need to have different meter from TNB. Have 3 phase meaning there are 3 different power supply from TNB into your home. The DB inside your house will also have to be change.
ozak
post Sep 6 2017, 10:10 AM

10k Club
********
All Stars
16,546 posts

Joined: Jan 2005


QUOTE(Zot @ Sep 6 2017, 09:47 AM)
Did you pull separate cable to db from main fuse? That big cable is expensive  smile.gif
*
Not really. You only need to tarik 2 set of few meter of 16mm wire for upstair db box.

Rather a bunch of 4mm and 2.5mm wire to up stair for all the room.

From the cost, it is cheaper. And the main advantage is the safety, lower bill, better lightning protection.
ozak
post Sep 6 2017, 10:12 AM

10k Club
********
All Stars
16,546 posts

Joined: Jan 2005


QUOTE(sonerin @ Sep 6 2017, 10:08 AM)
Not just as simple as that. You need to have different meter from TNB. Have 3 phase meaning there are 3 different power supply from TNB into your home. The DB inside your house will also have to be change.
*
It is for single phase and 3phase.

Not related to TNB meter.
Zot
post Sep 6 2017, 10:24 AM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
7,592 posts

Joined: Mar 2014
QUOTE(sonerin @ Sep 6 2017, 10:08 AM)
Not just as simple as that. You need to have different meter from TNB. Have 3 phase meaning there are 3 different power supply from TNB into your home. The DB inside your house will also have to be change.
*
Unless you hacked the wall to to more wires, changing meter, pull additional 2 wires from TNB and change DB box is not that expensive in term of material cost. Still for me the charge is too expensive but I guess that is the market share price .... bloated smile.gif Probably because the house with 3-phase wiring mostly for higher income people laugh.gif
Zot
post Sep 6 2017, 10:32 AM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
7,592 posts

Joined: Mar 2014
QUOTE(ozak @ Sep 6 2017, 10:10 AM)
Not really. You only need to tarik 2 set of few meter of 16mm wire for upstair db box.

Rather a bunch of 4mm and 2.5mm wire to up stair for all the room.

From the cost, it is cheaper. And the main advantage is the safety, lower bill, better lightning protection.
*
Meaning the other db is still putting the load on the main db. I had mine pulling separate cable directly to kitchen right after main fuse. I think it was 30m 60A cable through wall trunk and over the ceiling and go down to the kitchen into another db. This is for two air-con in two back rooms which has only 2 3-pin sockets on the wall; and the kitchen use. My kitchen hob is all electricity.

I'm still on single phase supply. The wire cost about RM500+ but that was about 10 years ago laugh.gif
ozak
post Sep 6 2017, 10:52 AM

10k Club
********
All Stars
16,546 posts

Joined: Jan 2005


QUOTE(Zot @ Sep 6 2017, 10:32 AM)
Meaning the other db is still putting the load on the main db. I had mine pulling separate cable directly to kitchen right after main fuse. I think it was 30m 60A cable through wall trunk and over the ceiling and go down to the kitchen into another db. This is for two air-con in two back rooms which has only 2 3-pin sockets on the wall; and the kitchen use. My kitchen hob is all electricity.

I'm still on single phase supply. The wire cost about RM500+ but that was about 10 years ago  laugh.gif
*
After the 63A fuse, the wire branches to each DB. Separated from the main DB. (In such case, there is no more main DB.)

Each DB have it own main breaker and rcd for start.

Why the contractor run the wire around your house that long? Banglo ?

Kitchen use quite high the consumption if everything is on electric. So it is best if 1 big cable to the kitchen and branches to how many socket you want at the back portion of the house.

You don't worry about the big cable melt down. It run cooler at long distance. Lower down your bill. Expand your socket outlet anytime at shorter distance without much hacking.


Richard
post Sep 6 2017, 11:06 AM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,083 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Kota Kinabalu


QUOTE(sonerin @ Sep 6 2017, 10:08 AM)
Not just as simple as that. You need to have different meter from TNB. Have 3 phase meaning there are 3 different power supply from TNB into your home. The DB inside your house will also have to be change.
*
Yes..

- 3phase using all single phase loads = 3 sets DP isolators, RCD's, Neutral bars, RCBO's for the water heater and a couple 3P mcb spares, metalclad housing, insulation,earthing, RCD, polarity, continuity, phasing testing and commissioning

Seriously not cheap..
Zot
post Sep 6 2017, 11:14 AM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
7,592 posts

Joined: Mar 2014
QUOTE(ozak @ Sep 6 2017, 10:52 AM)
After the 63A fuse, the wire branches to each DB. Separated from the main DB. (In such case, there is no more main DB.)

Each DB have it own main breaker and rcd for start.

Why the contractor run the wire around your house that long? Banglo ?

Kitchen use quite high the consumption if everything is on electric. So it is best if 1 big cable to the kitchen and branches to how many socket you want at the back portion of the house.

You don't worry about the big cable melt down. It run cooler at long distance. Lower down your bill. Expand your socket outlet anytime at shorter distance without much hacking.
*
Not bungalow. Just Semi-D. Has to go under floor cement a bit in front. Then up to the roof through water piping duct> Cross the ceiling to the kitchen at the back and down through pipe duct again. Then under extension kitchen floor to kitchen main db.

I did the wiring with my friend and figured my own layout. Even some wall cutting and plastering I did on my own laugh.gif Save a lit of money. If not maybe cost RM few k but it costed my just around RM1.2k
chamelion
post Sep 6 2017, 11:19 AM

Back to Bricking
*******
Senior Member
2,751 posts

Joined: Dec 2004
You never know what appliaces you gonna install in future.

For safety in long run, just use appropriate cable (at least wit sirim) for all point. It will save life and money in long run.
ozak
post Sep 6 2017, 11:31 AM

10k Club
********
All Stars
16,546 posts

Joined: Jan 2005


QUOTE(Zot @ Sep 6 2017, 11:14 AM)
Not bungalow. Just Semi-D. Has to go under floor cement a bit in front. Then up to the roof through water piping duct> Cross the ceiling to the kitchen at the back and down through pipe duct again. Then under extension kitchen floor to kitchen main db.

I did the wiring with my friend and figured my own layout. Even some wall cutting and plastering I did on my own  laugh.gif  Save a lit of money. If not maybe cost RM few k but it costed my just around RM1.2k
*
Understand.

So far what good you got to have such wiring?


Richard
post Sep 6 2017, 11:31 AM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,083 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Kota Kinabalu


QUOTE(Zot @ Sep 6 2017, 11:14 AM)
Not bungalow. Just Semi-D. Has to go under floor cement a bit in front. Then up to the roof through water piping duct> Cross the ceiling to the kitchen at the back and down through pipe duct again. Then under extension kitchen floor to kitchen main db.

I did the wiring with my friend and figured my own layout. Even some wall cutting and plastering I did on my own  laugh.gif  Save a lit of money. If not maybe cost RM few k but it costed my just around RM1.2k
*
The advantage of a diy is only you do not have to be licenced to carry out the job hence cutting corners i.e. looping a socket or a live lighting pt. from nearest available pt.. very easy job..

If you are actually inspected by a competent wireman then that electrical installation cannot be approved due to failing a polarity test or a live/neutral/earth continuity testing..

Wiring will fail and probably be a fire hazard due to bad installation and no testing.. but that's obviously not your problem..
Zot
post Sep 6 2017, 11:44 AM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
7,592 posts

Joined: Mar 2014
QUOTE(Richard @ Sep 6 2017, 11:31 AM)
The advantage of a diy is only you do not have to be licenced to carry out the job hence cutting corners i.e. looping a socket or a live lighting pt. from nearest available pt.. very easy job..

If you are actually inspected by a competent wireman then that electrical installation cannot be approved due to failing a polarity test or a live/neutral/earth continuity testing..

Wiring will fail and probably be a fire hazard due to bad installation and no testing.. but that's obviously not your problem..
*
Many of those contractors are not doing proper job either. Just criss cross wires just to save. Once the wall is plastered, owners don't know anything. I've seen many of these when contractors doing house renovation, unfortunately.

What you meant by "obviously not my problem"? I sure to not want to burn my own house laugh.gif I may not have so called license but I know what I'm doing as electrical engineering graduate wink.gif
Zot
post Sep 6 2017, 11:50 AM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
7,592 posts

Joined: Mar 2014
QUOTE(ozak @ Sep 6 2017, 11:31 AM)
Understand.

So far what good you got to have such wiring?
*
It was just that I do not have enough sockets for my kitchen. I need separate cable to carry high amp for my hob, not to burden existing wiring even though currently the house has separate ring socket configuration for ground and first floor. If the existing wires keep running warm/hot, then the insulator might fail over time. This is even worse because in Malaysia wires are buried under wall cement plaster. sad.gif
ozak
post Sep 6 2017, 12:16 PM

10k Club
********
All Stars
16,546 posts

Joined: Jan 2005


QUOTE(Zot @ Sep 6 2017, 11:50 AM)
It was just that I do not have enough sockets for my kitchen. I need separate cable to carry high amp for my hob, not to burden existing wiring even though currently the house has separate ring socket configuration for ground and first floor. If the existing wires keep running warm/hot, then the insulator might fail over time. This is even worse because in Malaysia wires are buried under wall cement plaster.  sad.gif
*
This is the problem what I m facing now. It is not the planning fault as 20+yrs back, there is not much electrical thing for kitchen which using high consumption. Everything is gas. So when thing start to change to electrical appliance, than start to worry about the wire and socket.

From my experience, wire is not much problem even running at high amp.(Max of wire) I m using induction cooker. Mostly the problem come from the wall socket, wire joining, and contact. This are the main that breakdown 1st.

Here wan of my example. https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopi...post&p=86233805
Zot
post Sep 6 2017, 12:36 PM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
7,592 posts

Joined: Mar 2014
QUOTE(ozak @ Sep 6 2017, 12:16 PM)
This is the problem what I m facing now. It is not the planning fault as 20+yrs back, there is not much electrical thing for kitchen which using high consumption. Everything is gas. So when thing start to change to electrical appliance, than start to worry about the wire and socket.

From my experience, wire is not much problem even running at high amp.(Max of wire) I m using induction cooker. Mostly the problem come from the wall socket, wire joining, and contact. This are the main that breakdown 1st.

Here wan of my example. https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopi...post&p=86233805
*
The problem with the switch is the spark during switching. Something you cannot avoid much with mechanical switch. Even the 13A hob that I have come with 15A plug. The 15A hob just come with ceramic wire connector, direct and no switch. Anyway, you would not want to switch the socket on and off every time you finish cooking.

If you really need a switch, go for rotate type. Rocking type generates too much heat at contact point. Your socket looks like plastic type not more robust Bakelite type. I remember using the portable table top induction for steamboat during CNY, The wall socket just melt over prolonged used... well just during eating time.. not that long biggrin.gif

Try use the 20A switch, replacing the socket. Well, maybe not matching the socket next to it smile.gif
yoshiki81
post Sep 6 2017, 12:39 PM

Getting Started
**
Junior Member
177 posts

Joined: Mar 2009
QUOTE(ubeyou @ Sep 5 2017, 08:34 PM)
Hi,

While my unit undergoing renovation, I noticed my contractor is using 2.5mm china made wire with smaller copper for 1.0HP, 1.5HP aircond and water heater.
I've compare it with standard Sirim approved wire, and it's indeed thinner & easier to bent.

Should I request for a change? I worried heavy usage results wire melt then lead a fire in the house.

Thanks.
*
It will become hot and melt...it will cause leak
Richard
post Sep 6 2017, 01:45 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,083 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Kota Kinabalu


QUOTE(Zot @ Sep 6 2017, 11:44 AM)
Many of those contractors are not doing proper job either. Just criss cross wires just to save. Once the wall is plastered, owners don't know anything. I've seen many of these when contractors doing house renovation, unfortunately.

What you meant by "obviously not my problem"? I sure to not want to burn my own house  laugh.gif  I may not have so called license but I know what I'm doing as electrical engineering graduate  wink.gif
*
Ok..

The comment is not aimed at you personally as you obviously understand electricity..

Just that it gives the impression that it is a simple safe thing to do when it is not as many have died due to faulty installation

So that we are all aware of the risk taken with a such a diy installation..
ozak
post Sep 6 2017, 02:16 PM

10k Club
********
All Stars
16,546 posts

Joined: Jan 2005


QUOTE(Zot @ Sep 6 2017, 12:36 PM)
The problem with the switch is the spark during switching. Something you cannot avoid much with mechanical switch. Even the 13A hob that I have come with 15A plug. The 15A hob just come with ceramic wire connector, direct and no switch. Anyway, you would not want to switch the socket on and off every time you finish cooking.

If you really need a switch, go for rotate type. Rocking type generates too much heat at contact point. Your socket looks like plastic type not more robust Bakelite type. I remember using the portable table top induction for steamboat during CNY, The wall socket just melt over prolonged used... well just during eating time.. not that long  biggrin.gif

Try use the 20A switch, replacing the socket. Well, maybe not matching the socket next to it  smile.gif
*
It can be avoid or reduce it. By using a type II surge protector. Already order some parts and would like to test it out. Good for lightning protection too.

It is a portable induction. It well below the 13A general spec.(2.6kw) But running longer time will given out heat on the wall socket. All this wall socket is schneider brand. But I think the quality is so so.

I should change it to 15A round type wall socket. Or 40A switch. But require hacking. There is no 20A or 40A wall socket.

The induction have to switch off. It consume some amount of electric on stanby. If not mistaken, a light bulb watt. That is quite a lot for 24hr ON.
Zot
post Sep 6 2017, 02:36 PM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
7,592 posts

Joined: Mar 2014
QUOTE(ozak @ Sep 6 2017, 02:16 PM)
It can be avoid or reduce it. By using a type II surge protector. Already order some parts and would like to test it out. Good for lightning protection too.

It is a portable induction. It well below the 13A general spec.(2.6kw) But running longer time will given out heat on the wall socket. All this wall socket is schneider brand. But I think the quality is so so.

I should change it to 15A round type wall socket. Or 40A switch. But require hacking. There is no 20A or 40A wall socket.

The induction have to switch off. It consume some amount of electric on stanby. If not mistaken, a light bulb watt. That is quite a lot for 24hr ON.
*
I think the 15A socket will do just fine. The normal 3-pin 13A type tends to lose contact over time. The "spring" copper that is pressing on the plug pin in the socket will lose its contact pressure over time due to heat generated by contact resistance, thus increases the contact resistance further more. The heat then increases to next level and soften and weaken the contact even further over time until failure is imminent.

I used Clipsal and notice gray color like as it was a car exhaust around the hole on the 13A socket. This is on the ceramic hub. However, it is still good. The 15A socket would have better contact to the plug and generate less heat. This is used on the induction one. My hobs are modular type. I have ceramic, grill and induction. I want to avoid a single big hob and use high amp contactor switch biggrin.gif
paskal
post Sep 6 2017, 09:43 PM

armchair commando couch potato
*******
Senior Member
2,796 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Darul Aman
QUOTE(ozak @ Sep 6 2017, 02:16 PM)
It can be avoid or reduce it. By using a type II surge protector. Already order some parts and would like to test it out. Good for lightning protection too.

It is a portable induction. It well below the 13A general spec.(2.6kw) But running longer time will given out heat on the wall socket. All this wall socket is schneider brand. But I think the quality is so so.

I should change it to 15A round type wall socket. Or 40A switch. But require hacking. There is no 20A or 40A wall socket.

The induction have to switch off. It consume some amount of electric on stanby. If not mistaken, a light bulb watt. That is quite a lot for 24hr ON.
*
How does a class 2 spd avoid or reduce arching?

QUOTE(Zot @ Sep 6 2017, 02:36 PM)
I think the 15A socket will do just fine. The normal 3-pin 13A type tends to lose contact over time. The "spring" copper that is pressing on the plug pin in the socket will lose its contact pressure over time due to heat generated by contact resistance, thus increases the contact resistance further more. The heat then increases to next level and soften and weaken the contact even further over time until failure is imminent.

I used Clipsal and notice gray color like as it was a car exhaust around the hole on the 13A socket. This is on the ceramic hub. However, it is still good. The 15A socket would have better contact to the plug and generate less heat. This is used on the induction one. My hobs are modular type. I have ceramic, grill and induction. I want to avoid a single big hob and use high amp contactor switch  biggrin.gif
*
Just use a dual pole switch like the ones used for water heater and those round 15a plug and socket with no switch.
ozak
post Sep 6 2017, 10:31 PM

10k Club
********
All Stars
16,546 posts

Joined: Jan 2005


QUOTE(paskal @ Sep 6 2017, 09:43 PM)
How does a class 2 spd avoid or reduce arching?
Just use a dual pole switch like the ones used for water heater and those round 15a plug and socket with no switch.
*
Sorry. It is absorb not reduce.

If a hob, just use a "cooker switch" which is rated at 45A.

paskal
post Sep 6 2017, 10:40 PM

armchair commando couch potato
*******
Senior Member
2,796 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Darul Aman
QUOTE(ozak @ Sep 6 2017, 10:31 PM)
Sorry. It is absorb not reduce.

If a hob, just use a "cooker switch" which is rated at 45A.
*
Dont think an spd will do much to absorb arching at the switches

This post has been edited by paskal: Sep 6 2017, 10:41 PM
Richard
post Sep 6 2017, 11:46 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,083 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Kota Kinabalu


QUOTE(paskal @ Sep 6 2017, 10:40 PM)
Dont think an spd will do much to absorb arching at the switches
*
An arc happens when electrons jump the gap between 2 conductors of differing voltage.. (think of lightning)

You can reduce the arc by having a vacuum or a barrier (as in an SF6 switchgear)..

An SPD (surge protection device) works by shorting to ground an abnormal high voltage spikes..

However since this is an ordinary electrical load its considered normal wear and tear ..

Maybe get a higher rated switch so it doesn't wear down so quickly or just do a permanent connection..

Or use something non mechanical like SCRs (a triac).. depends what you're using it for..
ozak
post Sep 6 2017, 11:48 PM

10k Club
********
All Stars
16,546 posts

Joined: Jan 2005


QUOTE(paskal @ Sep 6 2017, 10:40 PM)
Dont think an spd will do much to absorb arching at the switches
*
Not sure. Let's try it.

spd function is to absorb transient surges generate from switching and lightning.
ozak
post Sep 6 2017, 11:56 PM

10k Club
********
All Stars
16,546 posts

Joined: Jan 2005


QUOTE(Richard @ Sep 6 2017, 11:46 PM)
An arc happens when electrons jump the gap between 2 conductors of differing voltage.. (think of lightning)

You can reduce the arc by having a vacuum or a barrier (as in an SF6 switchgear)..

An SPD (surge protection device) works by shorting to ground an abnormal high voltage spikes..

However since this is an ordinary electrical load its considered normal wear and tear ..

Maybe get a higher rated switch so it doesn't wear down so quickly or just do a permanent connection..

Or use something non mechanical like SCRs (a triac).. depends what you're using it for..
*
Actually it is not just to solve a switching. It help to reduce the spoil of the sensitive electronic equipment. Some of it are not design well to protect the circuit.

Example of the reason why a electrical appliance are easily spoil when always ON/OFF.

Been dealing such a problem and SPD on my work experience.
paskal
post Sep 7 2017, 07:09 AM

armchair commando couch potato
*******
Senior Member
2,796 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Darul Aman
QUOTE(ozak @ Sep 6 2017, 11:48 PM)
Not sure. Let's try it.

spd function is to absorb transient surges generate from switching and lightning.
*
what's there to try? i have it inside my db.
user posted image
user posted image
user posted image
user posted image

QUOTE(Richard @ Sep 6 2017, 11:46 PM)
An arc happens when electrons jump the gap between 2 conductors of differing voltage.. (think of lightning)

You can reduce the arc by having a vacuum or a barrier (as in an SF6 switchgear)..

An SPD (surge protection device) works by shorting to ground an abnormal high voltage spikes..

However since this is an ordinary electrical load its considered normal wear and tear ..

Maybe get a higher rated switch so it doesn't wear down so quickly or just do a permanent connection..

Or use something non mechanical like SCRs (a triac).. depends what you're using it for..
*
thanks.
i know how an arc forms and how an spd works. but thanks anyway.
paskal
post Sep 7 2017, 07:42 AM

armchair commando couch potato
*******
Senior Member
2,796 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Darul Aman
QUOTE(weikee @ Sep 6 2017, 08:42 AM)
In total think i have about 40 MCBs  with 10 for AC and Heater. 90% of my house socket have no loop, all direct with individual MCB, maybe handful are loop.
*
A waste of money to have low current sockets with individual mcb and not looped to other low current sockets.

A lot of the sockets and wires will be carrying less than 1a for most of its lifetime. Thus makes no sense to have most of the socket it's own mcb.
weikee
post Sep 7 2017, 08:06 AM

10k Club
********
All Stars
12,019 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
QUOTE(paskal @ Sep 7 2017, 07:42 AM)
A waste of money to have low current sockets with individual mcb and not looped to other low current sockets.

A lot of the sockets and wires will be carrying less than 1a for most of its lifetime. Thus makes no sense to have most of the socket it's own mcb.
*
Think of it as safety with just additional RM 10-20 per point, and less hassle if any problem with wiring i can just ignore one and many more independent socket.
Zot
post Sep 7 2017, 08:08 AM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
7,592 posts

Joined: Mar 2014
QUOTE(paskal @ Sep 6 2017, 10:40 PM)
Dont think an spd will do much to absorb arching at the switches
*
Yes. I did not reply ozak on this. The surge protector is for different purpose and has nothing to do with prevent spark. When switch makes contact, it is not immediate jump from infinite to zero resistance. When two coppers in the switch just about to touch, the voltage difference between two point causing the spark. It is just like lightning during thunderstorm. If you switch faster and make good contact immediately, it will reduce spark size but still spark laugh.gif
If load is inductive, i.e. something using coil like in motor, the strong spark can also happened during switching off.

Surge protector on the other hand is to reduce voltage spike. Surge protector is rate for its working voltage and energy it can absorb. If too much energy, it will damage and need to be replaced. A 250V surge protector will clip voltage if suddenly voltage go above 250V (simply said but actually it is not exactly 250V but some tolerance above 250V, depends on spec in data sheet). It also has reaction time and normal extension cord with surge protector might not be able to prevent damage on some sensitive electronic devices nowadays. However, the China made EMI/Surge protector manages to save my plasma TV last time when many houses in my taman got fried sweat.gif

Some new touch switches claim they are spark free. This is achieved electronically by making sure switch make contact when AC voltage is crossing 0V line. thumbsup.gif
Zot
post Sep 7 2017, 08:29 AM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
7,592 posts

Joined: Mar 2014
QUOTE(ozak @ Sep 6 2017, 11:56 PM)
Actually it is not just to solve a switching. It help to reduce the spoil of the sensitive electronic equipment. Some of it are not design well to protect the circuit.

Example of the reason why a electrical appliance are easily spoil when always ON/OFF.

Been dealing such a problem and SPD on my work experience.
*
The damage in some sensitive device is from the noise generated during switching can happen. It can be viewed as spike as well. The noise can be from electrical appliances especially air-conditioner generated when compressor kicked in and out. During operation, the motor brushes arching also generate RF and electrical noise. This noise travel throughout the housing riding on the same wiring. The suitable device for this is to have electrical noise filter. Usually devices has common mode noise filter and capacitor 0.1uF for voltage line protection build in. The regular varistor normally used in extension wire is not fast enough to filter these noise.

The best protection against the AC power noise is to have filter as close as possible to the device you are protecting.




ozak
post Sep 7 2017, 08:31 AM

10k Club
********
All Stars
16,546 posts

Joined: Jan 2005


QUOTE(paskal @ Sep 7 2017, 07:09 AM)
what's there to try? i have it inside my db.
user posted image
user posted image
user posted image
user posted image
Some will be in DB like your pic. But downstream side. (after rccd)

And some will be near the source. Or over 10m from the main DB.

How much you brought Schneider surge? I m odering the ABB.

Is that 2 rccd you're using? What is that 2nd set use for?
ozak
post Sep 7 2017, 09:07 AM

10k Club
********
All Stars
16,546 posts

Joined: Jan 2005


QUOTE(Zot @ Sep 7 2017, 08:29 AM)
The damage in some sensitive device is from the noise generated during switching can happen. It can be viewed as spike as well. The noise can be from electrical appliances especially air-conditioner generated when compressor kicked in and out. During operation, the motor brushes arching also generate RF and electrical noise. This noise travel throughout the housing riding on the same wiring. The suitable device for this is to have electrical noise filter. Usually devices has common mode noise filter and capacitor 0.1uF for voltage line protection build in. The regular varistor normally used in extension wire is not fast enough to filter these noise.

The best protection against the AC power noise is to have filter as close as possible to the device you are protecting.
*
Last time did have some noise filter on most of the pc equipment. But nowaday, I just use the ferrite core. Clip on the wire. You remember me that I think still have some spare noise filter in my stock.

Varistor mostly design into the electrical/electronic appliances. That mostly use for spike/surge. But higher than that, have to use SPD. Sometime experience Varistor explode in just normal condition. Than I have to pay attention to the wall socket. The problem is not neccessary come from the nearest point.

Here 1 of the Cal lab surge protector that install on my AV line. Just explode last 2 week. But I not sure is the cal lab device problem or others. Cause this explosion is from the capacitor. Using for about a yrs.
Before
user posted image
After
user posted image

ozak
post Sep 7 2017, 09:24 AM

10k Club
********
All Stars
16,546 posts

Joined: Jan 2005


QUOTE(Zot @ Sep 7 2017, 08:08 AM)
Yes. I did not reply ozak on this. The surge protector is for different purpose and has nothing to do with prevent spark. When switch makes contact, it is not immediate jump from infinite to zero resistance. When two coppers in the switch just about to touch, the voltage difference between two point causing the spark. It is just like lightning during thunderstorm. If you switch faster and make good contact immediately, it will reduce spark size but still spark  laugh.gif
If load is inductive, i.e. something using coil like in motor, the strong spark can also happened during switching off.

Surge protector on the other hand is to reduce voltage spike. Surge protector is rate for its working voltage and energy it can absorb. If too much energy, it will damage and need to be replaced. A 250V surge protector will clip voltage if suddenly voltage go above 250V (simply said but actually it is not exactly 250V but some tolerance above 250V, depends on spec in data sheet). It also has reaction time and normal extension cord with surge protector might not be able to prevent damage on some sensitive electronic devices nowadays. However, the China made EMI/Surge protector manages to save my plasma TV last time when many houses in my taman got fried  sweat.gif

Some new touch switches claim they are spark free. This is achieved electronically by making sure switch make contact when AC voltage is crossing 0V line.  thumbsup.gif
*
There is a component that reduce/kill the spark. Normally install on the relay/contactor for motor. Which normally have spark when switching.

Unfortunately I can't buy this in local.

user posted image
Zot
post Sep 7 2017, 09:32 AM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
7,592 posts

Joined: Mar 2014
QUOTE(ozak @ Sep 7 2017, 09:07 AM)
Last time did have some noise filter on most of the pc equipment. But nowaday, I just use the ferrite core. Clip on the wire. You remember me that I think still have some spare noise filter in my stock.

Varistor mostly design into the electrical/electronic appliances. That mostly use for spike/surge. But higher than that, have to use SPD. Sometime experience Varistor explode in just normal condition. Than I have to pay attention to the wall socket. The problem is not neccessary come from the nearest point.

Here 1 of the Cal lab surge protector that install on my AV line. Just explode last 2 week. But I not sure is the cal lab device problem or others. Cause this explosion is from the capacitor. Using for about a yrs.
Before
user posted image
After
user posted image
*
In PSU/adapter for PC/laptop, there is common mode choke and mild surge protector on the AC input. Further more, the AC line is not directly go to mobo or devices because the switching PSU generates own AC before converting to DC once again before connected to mobo and other devices. So, I would not worry about having other filtering because I think it is adequate already, but having them is still ok. The PSD in main DB is more practical.

Well, sometimes capacitors just explode whenever they want laugh.gif I believe that Cal Lab is good product though I've never use one. Normally the capacitor can explode over higher voltage than its rating (surge). Not sure if the capacitor voltage rating is too marginal but I doubt that because I believe Cal Lab don't shortcut wink.gif

Have no idea. Maybe it is just electronic part failure
Zot
post Sep 7 2017, 09:59 AM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
7,592 posts

Joined: Mar 2014
QUOTE(ozak @ Sep 7 2017, 09:24 AM)
There is a component that reduce/kill the spark. Normally install on the relay/contactor for motor. Which normally have spark when switching.

Unfortunately I can't buy this in local.

user posted image
*
They put the name to attract customers. They call is Spark Killer laugh.gif manufactured by Omron. I'm not sure if this is just simply a non-polarized capacitor but maybe it is combination of Resistor and Capacitor. Basically this is just an RC (Resistor/Capacitor) circuit which is normally connected in series.

The suitable value to be used depends on the load your are having. It is not some kind of one value for all. The more complicated design is popularly called snubber in the US perhaps. You can find it here

http://my.element14.com/c/passive-componen...searchlookahead

oo.. Perhaps the picture you showed before this is also an arc suppressor, not capacitor. They looks the same polyester capacitor.
thailover
post Sep 7 2017, 10:10 AM

Getting Started
**
Junior Member
180 posts

Joined: Nov 2014
From: Kuala Lumpur


QUOTE(ubeyou @ Sep 6 2017, 07:48 AM)
Thanks for the advice. Malaysia should ban all china wires.
35k just for wiring alone?

Just bought the 100m Sirim Approved 2.5mm wires myself for about RM80. Apparent it is still cheap compared to what I paid for each aircond.
*
35k is considered reasonable. You know how much effort the technicians put in? Morning work till midnight for almost 2 months with 20 minutes lunch / dinner break. My contractors are those highly skilled people.
ozak
post Sep 7 2017, 10:44 AM

10k Club
********
All Stars
16,546 posts

Joined: Jan 2005


QUOTE(Zot @ Sep 7 2017, 09:59 AM)
They put the name to attract customers. They call is Spark Killer  laugh.gif  manufactured by Omron. I'm not sure if this is just simply a non-polarized capacitor but maybe it is combination of Resistor and Capacitor. Basically this is just an RC (Resistor/Capacitor) circuit which is normally connected in series.

The suitable value to be used depends on the load your are having. It is not some kind of one value for all. The more complicated design is popularly called snubber in the US perhaps. You can find it here

http://my.element14.com/c/passive-componen...searchlookahead

oo.. Perhaps the picture you showed before this is also an arc suppressor, not capacitor. They looks the same polyester capacitor.
*
Made from Okaya. They are famous with surge protector. The pic show you is I brought from Japan. It is non polarize and use to join in parallel between L and N. Or 3 pcs for 3phase. It called spark killer because it function is to reduce the spark. But japanese word is funny. biggrin.gif

Thanks for the web. But not sure which is suitable to be install.

I still have another cal-lab using on the server. Ya, they are good. This is my 2nd unit explode. Which the 1st wan protect from lightning.


Zot
post Sep 7 2017, 11:00 AM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
7,592 posts

Joined: Mar 2014
QUOTE(paskal @ Sep 7 2017, 07:09 AM)
what's there to try? i have it inside my db.
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

i know how an arc forms and how an spd works. but thanks anyway.
*
Looks like you are using Schneider SPD. Is that so? What is the response time. If it is in ms range, your sensitive device might still go kaput smile.gif

Why you put two CBs?
Zot
post Sep 7 2017, 11:02 AM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
7,592 posts

Joined: Mar 2014
QUOTE(ozak @ Sep 7 2017, 10:44 AM)
Made from Okaya. They are famous with surge protector. The pic show you is I brought from Japan. It is non polarize and use to join in parallel between L and N. Or 3 pcs for 3phase. It called spark killer because it function is to reduce the spark. But japanese word is funny. biggrin.gif

Thanks for the web. But not sure which is suitable to be install.

I still have another cal-lab using on the server. Ya, they are good. This is my 2nd unit explode. Which the 1st wan protect from lightning.
*
What you want to use them for? Is the one in the picture the one you use? You can just looks for its datasheet for similar spec.
Richard
post Sep 7 2017, 11:29 AM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,083 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Kota Kinabalu


QUOTE(Zot @ Sep 7 2017, 08:08 AM)

Some new touch switches claim they are spark free. This is achieved electronically by making sure switch make contact when AC voltage is crossing 0V line.  :thumbsup:
*
Yes.. thus a non mechanical device..

the only drawback is it is too technical for the general public, availability and maintenance..

Your content itself will lose readers being too technical with the 0v crossing but it is available with electronics with a cost..

If anyone has a specific problem can bring it out and maybe we can help solve it..
Zot
post Sep 7 2017, 11:49 AM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
7,592 posts

Joined: Mar 2014
QUOTE(ozak @ Sep 7 2017, 10:44 AM)
Made from Okaya. They are famous with surge protector. The pic show you is I brought from Japan. It is non polarize and use to join in parallel between L and N. Or 3 pcs for 3phase. It called spark killer because it function is to reduce the spark. But japanese word is funny. biggrin.gif

Thanks for the web. But not sure which is suitable to be install.

I still have another cal-lab using on the server. Ya, they are good. This is my 2nd unit explode. Which the 1st wan protect from lightning.
*
Another cheaper solution is just to use X and Y capacitors to reduce spikes and act like EMI/RFI suppression to clean the AC line. The one called X capacitor is the one connected between L and N, while Y capacitor is between L and Earth; and N and Earth.

They have ratings too. For normal home use, usually Xâ‚‚ and Yâ‚‚. These are easier to get. oo.. I saw the Okaya shows Xâ‚‚ also. Maybe they are just these capacitors.

This post has been edited by Zot: Sep 7 2017, 11:51 AM
Richard
post Sep 7 2017, 11:59 AM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,083 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Kota Kinabalu


A snubber device is standard included in any inductive circuit to reduce the current/voltage spikes..

X and Y caps are also for line and line to ground voltages.. its an electronic feature for most smps..

This post has been edited by Richard: Sep 7 2017, 12:02 PM
jackbanner
post Sep 7 2017, 02:18 PM

On my way
****
Senior Member
656 posts

Joined: Jun 2009
Please pm me the contractor 's contact no.


QUOTE(thailover @ Sep 7 2017, 10:10 AM)
35k is considered reasonable. You know how much effort the technicians put in? Morning work till midnight for almost 2 months with 20 minutes lunch / dinner break. My contractors are those highly skilled people.
*
paskal
post Sep 7 2017, 02:36 PM

armchair commando couch potato
*******
Senior Member
2,796 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Darul Aman
QUOTE(ozak @ Sep 7 2017, 08:31 AM)
Some will be in DB like your pic. But downstream side. (after rccd)

And some will be near the source. Or over 10m from the main DB.

How much you brought Schneider surge? I m odering the ABB.

Is that 2 rccd you're using? What is that 2nd set use for?
*
do check the datasheet. i reckon you cant install class 2 spd downstream of rccd as it'll trip the rccb if the spd divert the current to earth. might be too frequent trip if the surges are small but diverted by the spd.
class 3 spd prolly you can put it downstream of rccd.

the scheneider is close to rm400. rm380 or 360 can't remember. i think.
the second rccd is 100ma. the original db shipped with eaton 300ma rccd.

we got a huge lightning surge and it killed a few of my lights.
the standard 300ma rccd is a bit slow to trigger, but undamaged after the surge. so i bought another 100ma rccd and wire that after the 300ma since it's still working.

plan to put a class 3 spd to replace the 300ma rccd and have that connected to the 100ma rccd.

QUOTE(Zot @ Sep 7 2017, 11:00 AM)
Looks like you are using Schneider SPD. Is that so? What is the response time. If it is in ms range, your sensitive device might still go kaput  smile.gif

Why you put two CBs?
*
yes it a scheneider spd.
response time is similar to other spd on the local market.

what spd you use at your house? must be very good one right?
Zot
post Sep 7 2017, 04:00 PM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
7,592 posts

Joined: Mar 2014
QUOTE(paskal @ Sep 7 2017, 02:36 PM)
do check the datasheet. i reckon you cant install class 2 spd downstream of rccd as it'll trip the rccb if the spd divert the current to earth. might be too frequent trip if the surges are small but diverted by the spd.
class 3 spd prolly you can put it downstream of rccd.

the scheneider is close to rm400. rm380 or 360 can't remember. i think.
the second rccd is 100ma. the original db shipped with eaton 300ma rccd.

we got a huge lightning surge and it killed a few of my lights.
the standard 300ma rccd is a bit slow to trigger, but undamaged after the surge. so i bought another 100ma rccd and wire that after the 300ma since it's still working.

plan to put a class 3 spd to replace the 300ma rccd and have that connected to the 100ma rccd.
yes it a scheneider spd.
response time is similar to other spd on the local market.

what spd you use at your house? must be very good one right?
*
I believe the PSD is not meant to be exposed to permanent over-voltage. If you put the PSD before the RCCB, the PSD will continuously subjected to over-voltage as long as the surge lasted. This will expose it to higher risk of damage. The PSD should be placed on the load side of the RCCB.

Let say the PSD did a good job and hold the surge within limit, the RCCB will not trip until the PSD damage once operating beyond its limit. Then the surge will will be handled by the RCCB. However, the RCCB is not fast. It operating in ms range which most likely your electronic=s device already damaged.

The PSD is fast. Make sure you look for one that reacted lower than 300µs. This should be enough to protect the household electronics. Putting the PSD after the RCCB will give enough time for the RCCB to trip and break the incoming surge. This way less likely your electronics and PSD get damaged.

I cannot remember the PSD I bought but it is very fast, reacting in nano seconds range if not mistaken.
ozak
post Sep 7 2017, 05:05 PM

10k Club
********
All Stars
16,546 posts

Joined: Jan 2005


QUOTE(Zot @ Sep 7 2017, 11:02 AM)
What you want to use them for? Is the one in the picture the one you use? You can just looks for its datasheet for similar spec.
*
It use for the relay/contactor for motor switching.
Zot
post Sep 7 2017, 05:23 PM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
7,592 posts

Joined: Mar 2014
QUOTE(ozak @ Sep 7 2017, 05:05 PM)
It use for the relay/contactor for motor switching.
*
Internally it is just a resistor and a capacitor in series.

CR-50500

50 is for 0.5µF capacitor
500 is for 50Ω resistor

The resistor is only ½W. Maybe you can make one laugh.gif

https://www.okayaelec.co.jp/dcms_media/other/eg1704_cr.pdf
ozak
post Sep 7 2017, 05:27 PM

10k Club
********
All Stars
16,546 posts

Joined: Jan 2005


QUOTE(paskal @ Sep 7 2017, 02:36 PM)
do check the datasheet. i reckon you cant install class 2 spd downstream of rccd as it'll trip the rccb if the spd divert the current to earth. might be too frequent trip if the surges are small but diverted by the spd.
class 3 spd prolly you can put it downstream of rccd.

the scheneider is close to rm400. rm380 or 360 can't remember. i think.
the second rccd is 100ma. the original db shipped with eaton 300ma rccd.

we got a huge lightning surge and it killed a few of my lights.
the standard 300ma rccd is a bit slow to trigger, but undamaged after the surge. so i bought another 100ma rccd and wire that after the 300ma since it's still working.

plan to put a class 3 spd to replace the 300ma rccd and have that connected to the 100ma rccd.
I read it. It can be install in upstream or downstream.

I only know got class 1, class 2 and class 1+2. Class 1 have to be install upstream and protect the lightning coming from outside the house. Class 2 is for protect between the house.

But Class 2 have the limitation of 10m lenght distance from it install.
ozak
post Sep 7 2017, 05:32 PM

10k Club
********
All Stars
16,546 posts

Joined: Jan 2005


QUOTE(Zot @ Sep 7 2017, 05:23 PM)
Internally it is just a resistor and a capacitor in series.

CR-50500

50 is for 0.5µF capacitor
500 is for 50Ω resistor

The resistor is only ½W. Maybe you can make one  laugh.gif

https://www.okayaelec.co.jp/dcms_media/other/eg1704_cr.pdf
*
Problem is, it not suitable use on the house. It have to be install near the switching. The size too big to be go behind the wall socket. sad.gif
westom
post Sep 7 2017, 10:52 PM

Getting Started
**
Junior Member
228 posts

Joined: Mar 2009
Too much subjective recommendations. Almost no numbers that change the conclusions in so many posts.

Power receptacles do not fail due to heat. Receptacles are rated by their 'make and break' numbers. For example, hospital grade receptacles have the same electrical parameters as other less expensive ones. But hospital receptacles 'make and break' many times every day. So those receptacles are more expensive due to its much more robust mechanical specifications - have much higher 'make and break' numbers.

Protectors that fails physically did no protection. That failure gets naive consumer to buy more. Datasheets are quite blunt. A protector that fails catastrophically was even a threat to human life. Properly implemented protectors only degrade; with no visible indication of damage.

Protector parts often found in surge protectors are for events that occur maybe once every seven years. Microsecond transients. Protectors parts are never for over-voltage. Numbers in datasheets make that obvious.

The so many voltages implied previously (without numbers) are well below what all appliances are required to withstand without damage. Appliances already contain robust protection. Effective protectors are only for transients that might overwhelm existing and better protection.

Arcing (ie when disconnecting or by a switch) only creates noise. That noise on 230 volts would not even exceed 300 volts. Meanwhile protectors do near nothing until voltage well exceeds 600 volts.

Arcing can degrade a plug or wall receptacle (ie pitting). Switches are designed so that arc causes little to no damage.

Some pictures of failed protectors are what only happens when a protector was grossly undersized - must not have been used in that venue. Normal failure for a protector is its emergency backup protection device (ie a thermal fuse) trips. Any protector with visible damage was a threat to human life. The part exceeded the manufacturer's Absolute Maximum Parameters. The part was used in violation of manufacturer specifications.

Finally, a protector only connects a transient harmlessly to ground when that earth ground connection is low impedance - ie less than 3 meters. If a protector is closer to an appliance and farther from earth ground, then the protector will even earth a transient destructively through nearby appliances. Professional papers even demonstrate this damage. For example, a paper from Dr Martzloff discusses these 'point of connection' devices:
QUOTE
Conclusion:
1) Quantitative measurements in the Upside-Down house clearly show objectionable difference in reference voltages.  These occur even when or perhaps because, surge protective devices are present at the point of connection of appliances.

A protector must be located within meters of what absorbs a surge - earth ground. Protection increases with increased separation between protector and appliances.

And most important - not discussed. No protector does protection. Protection is defined by what absorbs that energy - earth ground. Wall receptacle safety ground is not earth ground - as made obvious even by above numbers.

This post has been edited by westom: Sep 7 2017, 10:56 PM
paskal
post Sep 8 2017, 02:17 PM

armchair commando couch potato
*******
Senior Member
2,796 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Darul Aman
QUOTE(westom @ Sep 7 2017, 10:52 PM)
*
Go play with yourself play somewhere else la westom.


paskal
post Sep 8 2017, 02:42 PM

armchair commando couch potato
*******
Senior Member
2,796 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Darul Aman
QUOTE(Zot @ Sep 7 2017, 04:00 PM)
I believe the PSD is not meant to be exposed to permanent over-voltage. If you put the PSD before the RCCB, the PSD will continuously subjected to over-voltage as long as the surge lasted. This will expose it to higher risk of damage. The PSD should be placed on the load side of the RCCB.

Let say the PSD did a good job and hold the surge within limit, the RCCB will not trip until the PSD damage once operating beyond its limit. Then the surge will will be handled by the RCCB. However, the RCCB is not fast. It operating in ms range which most likely your electronic=s device already damaged.

The PSD is fast. Make sure you look for one that reacted lower than 300µs. This should be enough to protect the household electronics. Putting the PSD after the RCCB will give enough time for the RCCB to trip and break the incoming surge. This way less likely your electronics and PSD get damaged.

I cannot remember the PSD I bought but it is very fast, reacting in nano seconds range if not mistaken.
*
that's why the SPD must be protected by a short circuit overvoltage circuit breaker. if there's no coordination to upstream device the SPD will burn and blow and cause fire hazard.
almost all installation recommends the SPD be protected with an upstream MCB.

the SPD installed downstream of RCCD might cause nuisance trip if you use a sensitive, fast RCCD upstream of it.
as mentioned here:
user posted image
user posted image
user posted image
you can read around suruhanjaya tenaga and malaysian standard suggested implementation of SPD. or read the documents from manufacturers.

there's no single solution. if proper coordination between upstream and downstream devices are followed, then its okay however you implement it.
i wanna avoid nuisance tripping and use sensitive rccd.

your house never got nuisance tripping?
ozak
post Sep 8 2017, 02:55 PM

10k Club
********
All Stars
16,546 posts

Joined: Jan 2005


Damn. Received an email while at work from my home that some power trip but instant ON back again in split of ms. No RCCD or MCB trip for such case. Once a while have such a problem that I not sure why. Coming from TNB ?

But it is raining thunderstorm now.
paskal
post Sep 8 2017, 02:59 PM

armchair commando couch potato
*******
Senior Member
2,796 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Darul Aman
QUOTE(ozak @ Sep 8 2017, 02:55 PM)
Damn. Received an email while at work from my home that some power trip but instant ON back again in split of ms. No RCCD or MCB trip for such case. Once a while have such a problem that I not sure why. Coming from TNB ?

But it is raining thunderstorm now.
*
how did you get an email for power trip? using a UPS?
ozak
post Sep 8 2017, 02:59 PM

10k Club
********
All Stars
16,546 posts

Joined: Jan 2005


QUOTE(paskal @ Sep 8 2017, 02:17 PM)
Go play with yourself play somewhere else la westom.
*
He is coming back for the surge. biggrin.gif
ozak
post Sep 8 2017, 03:04 PM

10k Club
********
All Stars
16,546 posts

Joined: Jan 2005


QUOTE(paskal @ Sep 8 2017, 02:59 PM)
how did you get an email for power trip? using a UPS?
*
Yup.

Have a UPS link online to the server. Whatever interruption from the power, the server will send an email out. And if power connect back, it will send an email out again.

For such split ms trip case, 2 email will send out in same time. With different content.
Zot
post Sep 8 2017, 03:09 PM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
7,592 posts

Joined: Mar 2014
QUOTE(paskal @ Sep 8 2017, 02:42 PM)
that's why the SPD must be protected by a short circuit overvoltage circuit breaker. if there's no coordination to upstream device the SPD will burn and blow and cause fire hazard.
almost all installation recommends the SPD be protected with an upstream MCB.

the SPD installed downstream of RCCD might cause nuisance trip if you use a sensitive, fast RCCD upstream of it.
as mentioned here:
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

you can read around suruhanjaya tenaga and malaysian standard suggested implementation of SPD. or read the documents from manufacturers.

there's no single solution. if proper coordination between upstream and downstream devices are followed, then its okay however you implement it.
i wanna avoid nuisance tripping and use sensitive rccd.

your house never got nuisance tripping?
*
The reason many electronic devices in household get damage during lightning is that the MCBs or RCCDs are not fast enough to protect electronics devices. It is more adequate for electrical components like motors, heaters, transformers.

This is how Schneider recommend:

[attachmentid=9117067]

Either you are lazy to reset MCB due to frequent trips or you want to risk your expensive electronic appliances/devices is up to you biggrin.gif

The surge protection before entering house is something else, not the one you show in picture wink.gif

Zot
post Sep 8 2017, 03:13 PM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
7,592 posts

Joined: Mar 2014
QUOTE(ozak @ Sep 8 2017, 03:04 PM)
Yup.

Have a UPS link online to the server. Whatever interruption from the power, the server will send an email out. And if power connect back, it will send an email out again.

For such split ms trip case, 2 email will send out in same time. With different content.
*
I would say that it was because of voltage dipped, not the trip due to surge. So, MCB will not trip. It will cause temporary blackout. I'd say it was on TNB side.
ozak
post Sep 8 2017, 03:35 PM

10k Club
********
All Stars
16,546 posts

Joined: Jan 2005


QUOTE(Zot @ Sep 8 2017, 03:13 PM)
I would say that it was because of voltage dipped, not the trip due to surge. So, MCB will not trip. It will cause temporary blackout. I'd say it was on TNB side.
*
I have experience where suddenly whole house no power for like few minunte. Than coming back. Than no power again.

I check with my neighbour but they all have power.

I switch off the RCCD. Switch ON again. Back to normal. Than after 2-3days, while bathing with heater, it OFF again. Switch off the RCCD and ON back. Back to normal.

Suspect that the RCCD is kong already. Change the RCCD and main MCB together. So far so good.

But this split ms power OFF and ON again not sure why. I worry there is still got some problem in my home.

Damn the ghost month. dry.gif
ozak
post Sep 8 2017, 03:49 PM

10k Club
********
All Stars
16,546 posts

Joined: Jan 2005


This is what I read.

user posted image

user posted image

Single phase wiring. OVR= SPD.

user posted image
paskal
post Sep 8 2017, 04:10 PM

armchair commando couch potato
*******
Senior Member
2,796 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Darul Aman
QUOTE(Zot @ Sep 8 2017, 03:09 PM)
The reason many electronic devices in household get damage during lightning is that the MCBs or RCCDs are not fast enough to protect electronics devices. It is more adequate for electrical components like motors, heaters, transformers.

This is how Schneider recommend:

[attachmentid=9117067]

Either you are lazy to reset MCB due to frequent trips or you want to risk your expensive electronic appliances/devices is up to you  biggrin.gif

The surge protection before entering house is something else, not the one you show in picture  wink.gif
*
you do know there's a class 3 spd right?

and could you please read for me if schneider rekemen to put the spd before or after rccd? because your picture doesn't show any rccd there
Zot
post Sep 8 2017, 04:43 PM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
7,592 posts

Joined: Mar 2014
QUOTE(paskal @ Sep 8 2017, 04:10 PM)
you do know there's a class 3 spd right?

and could you please read for me if schneider rekemen to put the spd before or after rccd? because your picture doesn't show any rccd there
*
To me the SPD in the diagram is class 2 type, installed between the incoming circuit breaker or RCD (Resicual Current Device - which is generic term for all RCD types i.e. RCCB/ELCB, MCB, etc) and Mini Circuit Breaker (MCB again smile.gif )

This is the way I read the diagram. The class 3 is the type you put near to the device you are protecting. The surge protector inside the extension cord can be classified as class 3.

Note: I should say RCCB, not RCCD biggrin.gif
paskal
post Sep 8 2017, 04:53 PM

armchair commando couch potato
*******
Senior Member
2,796 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Darul Aman
QUOTE(Zot @ Sep 8 2017, 04:43 PM)
To me the SPD in the diagram is class 2 type, installed between the incoming circuit breaker or RCD (Resicual Current Device - which is generic term for all RCD types i.e. RCCB/ELCB, MCB, etc) and Mini Circuit Breaker (MCB again  smile.gif )

This is the way I read the diagram. The class 3 is the type you put near to the device you are protecting. The surge protector inside the extension cord can be classified as class 3.

Note: I should say RCCB, not RCCD  biggrin.gif
*
i'm lazy to argue.

http://bfy.tw/DoRy
go read the recommended installation regarding rcd and spd. there's a lot of pdf for you to digest.
and not, it's not generic. spd is spd. rcd is rcd. elcb is elcb. and mcb is different from mccb.
rccb and rcb and rcd and rccd maybe the same. but not elcb.

ozak too.
you guys can skip all the explanation by searching 'rcd' inside the pdfs.
Zot
post Sep 8 2017, 05:09 PM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
7,592 posts

Joined: Mar 2014
QUOTE(paskal @ Sep 8 2017, 04:53 PM)
i'm lazy to argue.

http://bfy.tw/DoRy
go read the recommended installation regarding rcd and spd. there's a lot of pdf for you to digest.
and not, it's not generic. spd is spd. rcd is rcd. elcb is elcb. and mcb is different from mccb.
rccb and rcb and rcd and rccd maybe the same. but not elcb.

ozak too.
you guys can skip all the explanation by searching 'rcd' inside the pdfs.
*
The generic term is mentioned in the pdf by Suruhanjaya Tenaga that you referred to. I know they are different on how they work but in general they can be called RCD.

nvm.. maybe you understand it differently
paskal
post Sep 8 2017, 06:10 PM

armchair commando couch potato
*******
Senior Member
2,796 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Darul Aman
QUOTE(Zot @ Sep 8 2017, 05:09 PM)
The generic term is mentioned in the pdf by Suruhanjaya Tenaga that you referred to. I know they are different on how they work but in general they can be called RCD.

nvm.. maybe you understand it differently
*
ok
Richard
post Sep 8 2017, 06:20 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,083 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Kota Kinabalu


QUOTE(paskal @ Sep 8 2017, 04:53 PM)
i'm lazy to argue.

http://bfy.tw/DoRy
go read the recommended installation regarding rcd and spd. there's a lot of pdf for you to digest.
and not, it's not generic. spd is spd. rcd is rcd. elcb is elcb. and mcb is different from mccb.
rccb and rcb and rcd and rccd maybe the same. but not elcb.

*
We argue to further our understanding and its all very good..

Refer to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_leakage_circuit_breaker and our Malaysian http://www.st.gov.my/index.php/en/download...lectrical-insta

An RCD is a generic meaning a general term for all residual current leakage devices..

Hope it clarifies your understanding..

This post has been edited by Richard: Sep 8 2017, 06:21 PM
bobowyc
post Sep 8 2017, 06:24 PM

You are who you are.
******
Senior Member
1,888 posts

Joined: Apr 2013
From: Petaling Jaya


Agreed. Please ask him to remove the china cables. In the long run its not safe. Not SIRIM approved is pretty bad.. Lol. I usually use local cable, Mega cable is good.
paskal
post Sep 8 2017, 07:28 PM

armchair commando couch potato
*******
Senior Member
2,796 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Darul Aman
QUOTE(Richard @ Sep 8 2017, 06:20 PM)
We argue to further our understanding and its all very good..

Refer to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_leakage_circuit_breaker and our Malaysian http://www.st.gov.my/index.php/en/download...lectrical-insta

An RCD is a generic meaning a general term for all residual current leakage devices..

Hope it clarifies your understanding..
*
from the wiki.
QUOTE
This is a category of devices, which are used to protect instruments, circuits and operators, while Earth leakage. Early ELCBs are voltage sensing devices, which are now replaced by current sensing devices (RCD/RCCB). Usually voltage sensing devices termed as ELCB and Current sensing devices termed as RCCB.

Voltage ELCBs were first introduced about sixty years ago and current ELCB was first introduced about forty years ago. For many years, the voltage operated ELCB and the differential current operated ELCB were both referred to as ELCBs because it was a simpler name to remember. But the use of a common name for two different devices gave rise to considerable confusion in the electrical industry.

If the wrong type was used on an installation, the level of protection given could be substantially less than that intended.

To eliminate this confusion, IEC decided to apply the term residual current device (RCD) to differential-current-operated ELCBs. Residual current refers to any current over and above the load current.

ELCB manufacturers include: Major Tech, Fuji Electric, Schneider Electric, Legrand, Havells, ABB, Siemens AG, Areva T&D, Camsco, Telemecanique, Orion Italia, Crabtree, MEM, Terasaki,Vguard.

user posted image

elcb is no longer sold in malaysian market. malaysia have long discontinued the use of elcb in preference to rccd. that's why now rcd is referred to all residual current devices.

but elcb doesn't operate on residual current/differential current principles. elcb works by monitoring the voltage on the earth line.
it's discontinued, but some old installation still has elcb in them. and some shops still have old stocks of them.
so if you walk into a shop, ask for automatic/rcd/rccd/rcb/rccb and were given an elcb, it's definitely not the same thing.

user posted image
but let's not go into correctness of abbreviation can or not?
it's all just abbreviation.
Richard
post Sep 8 2017, 08:20 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,083 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Kota Kinabalu


QUOTE(paskal @ Sep 8 2017, 07:28 PM)
but elcb doesn't operate on residual current/differential current principles. elcb works by monitoring the voltage on the earth line.
*
It does..

An ELCB is a 3 wire device.. The residual current flows down the earth wire trips the device..
Voltage dependent between Live and Earth wire..

An RCCB is a 2 wire device based on a 3 windings (L-N and a wire wound to detect the tripping current) on a single toroid.. This residual current trips the device..
Does not depend on a voltage difference between Live and Earth wire..

If you remember your Ohm's Law, current flows from a high Voltage to a lower Voltage with respect to impedance (sum of resistance and reactance)

The reason an ELCB is longer in use is because a bad earth rod at the consumer side gives a high impedance (sum of resistance and reactance) which will not trip the ELCB even when fault current kills the user..

Watch this video https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Differ...9E5&FORM=VRDGAR from 0:58 onwards..

QUOTE(paskal @ Sep 8 2017, 07:28 PM)
but let's not go into correctness of abbreviation can or not?
it's all just abbreviation.
*
If you understand then its ok.. and you're right its only letters ..

Just so you know how it works..

Richard
post Sep 8 2017, 09:01 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,083 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Kota Kinabalu


QUOTE(paskal @ Sep 8 2017, 04:10 PM)

and could you please read for me if schneider rekemen to put the spd before or after rccd? because your picture doesn't show any rccd there
*
The SPD is installed between the isolator (Main incomer) mcb and before the (RCD) residual current device..

Reason is because any High Voltage (low residual current flows) direct to ground ..

It can cause a trip of the RCD (also a residual current device) if installed wrongly..
paskal
post Sep 8 2017, 09:09 PM

armchair commando couch potato
*******
Senior Member
2,796 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Darul Aman
QUOTE(Richard @ Sep 8 2017, 09:01 PM)
The SPD is installed between the isolator (Main incomer) mcb and before the (RCD) residual current device..

Reason is because any High Voltage (low residual current flows) direct to ground ..

It can cause a trip of the RCD (also a residual current device) if installed wrongly..
*
Zot disagrees with you.
Spd must be installed downstream of rcd to better protect your electronic devices.
Richard
post Sep 8 2017, 09:14 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,083 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Kota Kinabalu


QUOTE(paskal @ Sep 8 2017, 09:09 PM)
Zot disagrees with you.
Spd must be installed downstream of rcd to better protect your electronic devices.
*
You can install it that way ..

but logically a high enough leaking current will trip the RCD..

A high Voltage will take the closest path to Earth..

A very high voltage(say thousands of Volt) sees an SPD (which stops normal 230V) as a short circuit to earth..

and the electron flow (residual current) trips the RCD..

This should be the better way to install an SPD..

This post has been edited by Richard: Sep 8 2017, 09:29 PM
paskal
post Sep 8 2017, 09:28 PM

armchair commando couch potato
*******
Senior Member
2,796 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Darul Aman
QUOTE(Richard @ Sep 8 2017, 09:14 PM)
You can install it that way ..

but logically a high enough leaking current will trip the RCD..
*
Or install a class 2 spd upstream of rcd.
And install a lower voltage higher sensitivity faster class 3 spd downstream of the rcd.

That way you'll have all the benefit of fast response even with low surge voltage and sensitive rcd and could still avoid nuisance tripping.
Class 3 not the plug end spd but din rail class 3 spd.
Richard
post Sep 8 2017, 09:37 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,083 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Kota Kinabalu


QUOTE(paskal @ Sep 8 2017, 09:28 PM)
Or install a class 2 spd upstream of rcd.
And install a lower voltage higher sensitivity faster class 3 spd downstream of the rcd.

That way you'll have all the benefit of fast response even with low surge voltage and sensitive rcd and could still avoid nuisance tripping.
Class 3 not the plug end spd but din rail class 3 spd.
*
You're saying having 2 SPD's ..

Blocking voltage spikes and earthing the residual current before and after the RCCD's tripping amp?

hahaha.. that is funny..
westom
post Sep 8 2017, 09:46 PM

Getting Started
**
Junior Member
228 posts

Joined: Mar 2009
QUOTE(Richard @ Sep 8 2017, 05:01 PM)
The SPD is installed between the isolator (Main incomer) mcb and before the (RCD) residual current device..

Reason is because any High Voltage (low residual current flows) direct to ground ..
Quite accurate. RCD and other such devices work by blocking a current. A surge will easily blow through that millimeters blocking device. An RCD also must be protected from the surge.

Protection is mostly about current - not voltage. If that current connects to earth on a low impedance connection (ie hardwire to earth less than 3 meters), then it creates a near zero voltage. If anything tries to block that current (ie RCD), then voltage increases as necessary to blow through that blocking device.

How effective is an SPD? That connection to and quality of earth ground defines protection. An SPD and wire must be sufficiently sized (50,000 amps and at least 4 mm) so that neither fail even during direct lightning strikes. Then an SPD even protects RCD type devices. A Schneider diagram demonstrates some of that but does not include these essential numbers.

SPD needs some type of protection from a completely different type anomaly such a long overvoltage. Often these are installed with a circuit breaker or fuse rated more than 10,000 volts; so that a long overvoltage will eventually be disconnected from that SPD. This required feature is to protect humans from a potential SPD fire.

'Class' is about protecting human life - not about protecting appliances. A class one or two protector is sized and installed to also avert threats to human life - ie fire. A class 3 protector must be protected from surges that class one or two protectors address. A class 3 protector is less robust and does not protect from surges that typically cause appliance damage. It will have an emergency backup protection device (ie a 1 amp thermal fuse). Then protector parts are disconnected during any anomaly that might cause a fire. Meanwhile, that anomaly remains connected to any all attached appliances.

A missing and necessary connection is obvious - class three has no low impedance (ie less than 3 meter) connection to earth. So it does not claim to protect appliances from typically destructive transients. It can often be damaged by surges too tiny to harm nearby appliances. Just another reason why a class one or two protector is strongly recommended - to protect appliances and to also protect class three protectors.

A class 3 protector must somehow do what any effective protector does. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? We have even traced surge damage to appliances because the class 3 protector connected that surge to earth - destructively via adjacent appliances. A class 3 protector can even make appliance damage easier if a service entrance protector (class one or two) is not properly earthed.


This post has been edited by westom: Sep 8 2017, 09:50 PM
Richard
post Sep 8 2017, 09:54 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,083 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Kota Kinabalu


Sorry wrong comments..

This post has been edited by Richard: Sep 8 2017, 10:11 PM
fireballs
post Sep 8 2017, 10:22 PM

10101
*******
Senior Member
5,627 posts

Joined: Mar 2012
thread hijacked become electrical engineering classroom hehehe.

one thing though... please leave it to real electrical engineers.

if you are installing spd, please make sure u have a coordinated breaker upstream. not too big not too small. else you end up burning your house, not by lightning but by leakages from higher voltage at night.

to those installing for new house, please follow the new guideline on 100ma, 30ma, and 10ma rule for rcd.

while the contractor is around, ask them to do a ground resistance check as well. 10 minute to do but critical for life safety.
ozak
post Sep 8 2017, 10:26 PM

10k Club
********
All Stars
16,546 posts

Joined: Jan 2005


Why you guys sound like getting complicated ?

I m spm level only.
westom
post Sep 8 2017, 11:14 PM

Getting Started
**
Junior Member
228 posts

Joined: Mar 2009
QUOTE(ozak @ Sep 8 2017, 06:26 PM)
Why you guys sound like getting complicated ?
Everything here is at a layman's level. Protector must make a low impedance (ie less than 3 meter) connection to earth (a single point earth ground; not wall receptacle safety ground). Otherwise it is ineffective. Protector must connect that current to earth on a path that is not destructive - does not pass through at risk appliances or RCD. Protector must be sized so as to not threaten human life - ie at least 50,000 amps. Protector must be fused, so that if it does fail catastrophically, then it disconnects without threatening human life. These old and well understood concepts were understood even 100 years ago.

Which part is complicated?

ozak
post Sep 8 2017, 11:21 PM

10k Club
********
All Stars
16,546 posts

Joined: Jan 2005


QUOTE(Richard @ Sep 8 2017, 09:01 PM)
The SPD is installed between the isolator (Main incomer) mcb and before the (RCD) residual current device..

Reason is because any High Voltage (low residual current flows) direct to ground ..

It can cause a trip of the RCD (also a residual current device) if installed wrongly..
*
Lightning come in both way. From outside your house like TNB line and your neighbor.

Another lightning is from between your home. And the switching cause transient. (Smaller form of lightning).

Those lightning coming from outside have a higher risk rather the wan between your house. Unless you get direct strike.

Spd class 1 should install between the mcb and rcd. Like what paskal install. That should absorb the high voltage and won't pass over to rcd. But if it too high the voltage, some leakage will pass over. In this case the rcd should trip to protected your house.

Spd class 2 can install downstream after rcd. It main purpose is to protect between the house of less serious lightning. But require mcb and nuisance trip rcd to work together. Class 2 not mean for higher type of lightning.

Both class using in different way.
ozak
post Sep 8 2017, 11:54 PM

10k Club
********
All Stars
16,546 posts

Joined: Jan 2005


QUOTE(westom @ Sep 8 2017, 11:14 PM)
Everything here is at a layman's level.  Protector must make a low impedance (ie less than 3 meter) connection to earth (a single point earth ground; not wall receptacle safety ground).  Otherwise it is ineffective.  Protector must connect that current to earth on a path that is not destructive - does not pass through at risk appliances or RCD.  Protector must be sized so as to not threaten human life - ie at least 50,000 amps.  Protector must be fused, so that if it does fail catastrophically, then it disconnects without threatening human life.  These old and well understood concepts were understood even 100 years ago.

Which part is complicated?
*
I teasing them only la. They arque till don't no where already. Later formula and scientific calculation also comeout.

I understand your way. But our house here condition not allow us to do your way. No one will want to crack their tile and floor to plunge the earth rod every few meter around their house. Unless they plan early during construction or built their own house.

Even with spd, the earth ground cannot be too far away from the main ground wire and rod.
westom
post Sep 9 2017, 12:26 AM

Getting Started
**
Junior Member
228 posts

Joined: Mar 2009
QUOTE(ozak @ Sep 8 2017, 07:54 PM)
No one will want to crack their tile and floor to plunge the earth rod every few meter around their house. Unless they plan early during construction or built their own house.

Why would anyone drive earth ground rods inside (through a floor)? Why would anyone install earth ground rods that do nothing useful? Protection is always about no current inside.

All appliances already contain robust protection that makes anything inside the structure (ie switching) completely irrelevant. Earth ground rods (to create a single point earth ground) must be outside. Then best protection (even from rumored interior transients) exists. That is how it is done everywhere in the world.

Protectors adjacent to appliances (without an earth ground) do not even claim to provide effective protection. Read specification numbers. Anything those might do is already made irrelevant by what already exists and is better inside appliances.

Protection from all types of surges is same protection also installed to protect from lightning. (Those are also called class one or two protectors with numbers already provided.) Voltage only exists if a protector is undersized or if earth ground is insufficient. Protection is never about voltage. Protection is about a constant current. Voltage only exists when someone foolishly tries to 'block' or to 'absorb' that surge inside.

Protection is only and has always been about that current not anywhere inside. And so a low impedance (ie hardwire has no sharp bends or splices) connection to single point earth ground means current remains outside; only creates a near zero voltage. Then best protection already inside every appliance is not overwhelmed.

Again, class says nothing about effective appliance protection. Class only says whether a protector will threaten human life (ie create a fire).

This post has been edited by westom: Sep 9 2017, 12:28 AM
paskal
post Sep 9 2017, 12:30 AM

armchair commando couch potato
*******
Senior Member
2,796 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Darul Aman
QUOTE(Richard @ Sep 8 2017, 09:37 PM)
You're saying having 2 SPD's ..

Blocking voltage spikes and earthing the residual current before and after the RCCD's tripping amp?

hahaha.. that is funny..
*
cascading multiple SPD is not an alien concept.

did you even read the pdfs?
westom
post Sep 9 2017, 12:42 AM

Getting Started
**
Junior Member
228 posts

Joined: Mar 2009
QUOTE(paskal @ Sep 8 2017, 08:30 PM)
cascading multiple SPD is not an alien concept.
No protector does protection ... not one. An effective protector connects a current harmlessly on a low impedance path to what absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules.

A lightning rod also does not protect a structure. Like a protector, it too is only a connecting device to what harmlessly dissipates hundreds of thousands of joules.

If recommendation come without numbers, that is a first indication of a scam.

How many joules does that protector without an earth ground claim to absorb? Hundreds? Thousand? A surge that tiny is routinely made irrelevant by protection already inside appliances. Electronics will routinely convert a surge that minuscule into rock stable low DC voltages to safely power its semiconductors.

So show me how this hundreds or thousand joule protector (without the always required low impedance connection to earth) that does layered protection? It does not. Please read from the fewer who have done this stuff for decades. Or read the so many well published professional papers. Each layer of protection is never provided by a protector. Each layer of protection is always provided by an earth ground. Protectors are only connecting devices.

Some protection systems have no protectors. But every protection layer always - as in always - has the required earth ground. Protector without earth ground is not a protection layers. Worse, those plug-in protectors must be protected by a properly earthed 'service entrance' protector.

Again, that has not changed in 100 years. Protection is always about what harmlessly absorbs hundreds of thousand of joules. The numbers that hearsay and urban myths forget to discuss. A protector (like a lightning rod) is only as effective as its earth ground.

Layering: 'primary' protection layer must be installed by the utility (ie a properly earthed protection at a transformer). The above, earthed, and strongly recommended 'whole house' protector is the 'secondary' protection layer. In every case, earth ground defines each protection layer. Plug-in protectors can only be part of the 'secondary' protection layer. And then we put numbers to it. That 'whole house' protector does 99.5% to 99.9% of the protection (according to an industry standard). That leaves a plug-in protector to add maybe another 0.2% protection. So yes it does protection. And then we include numbers. Near zero protection.

This post has been edited by westom: Sep 9 2017, 12:49 AM
paskal
post Sep 9 2017, 12:46 AM

armchair commando couch potato
*******
Senior Member
2,796 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Darul Aman
QUOTE(ozak @ Sep 8 2017, 11:54 PM)
I teasing them only la. They arque till don't no where already. Later formula and scientific calculation also comeout.

I understand your way. But our house here condition not allow us to do your way. No one will want to crack their tile and floor to plunge the earth rod every few meter around their house. Unless they plan early during construction or built their own house.

Even with spd, the earth ground cannot be too far away from the main ground wire and rod.
*
http://bfy.tw/Dowd

class 1 - for installation with lightning rod/mesh protection.
class 2 - low voltage protection (240v/120v) inside fusebox. installation without lightning rod/mesh.
class 3 - fast response for sensitive equipment. must be supplemented by class 2.

but yeah whatever. i'm outta here.
listen to westom he knows his stuffs

This post has been edited by paskal: Sep 9 2017, 12:46 AM
paskal
post Sep 9 2017, 12:53 AM

armchair commando couch potato
*******
Senior Member
2,796 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Darul Aman
QUOTE(westom @ Sep 9 2017, 12:42 AM)
No protector does protection ... not one.  An effective protector connects a current harmlessly on a low impedance path to what absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules.

A lightning rod also does not protect a structure.  Like a protector, it too is only a connecting device to what harmlessly dissipates hundreds of thousands of joules.

You can read all the hearsay you want.  But if those recommendation come without numbers, that is a first indication of a scam.

How many joules does that protector without an earth ground claim to absorb?  Hundreds? Thousand?  A surge that tiny is routinely made irrelevant by protection already inside appliances.  Electronics will routinely convert a surge that minuscule into rock stable low DC voltages to safely power its semiconductors.

So show me how this hundreds or thousand joule protector (without the always required low impedance connection to earth) that does layered protection?  It does not.  Please read from the fewer who have done this stuff for decades. Or read the so many well published professional papers.  Each layer of protection is never provided by a protector.  Each layer of protection is always provided by an earth ground.  Protectors are only connecting devices.

Some protection systems have no protectors.  But every protection layer always - as in always - has the required earth ground.  Protector without earth ground is not a protection layers.  Worse, those plug-in protectors must be protected by a properly earthed 'service entrance' protector.

Again, that has not changed in 100 years.  Protection is always about what harmlessly absorbs hundreds of thousand of joules.  The numbers that hearsay and urban myths forget to discuss.  A protector (like a lightning rod) is only as effective as its earth ground.

Layering:   'primary' protection layer must be installed by the utility (ie a properly earthed protection at a transformer).  The above, earthed, and strongly recommended 'whole house' protector is the 'secondary' protection layer.  In every case, earth ground defines each protection layer.  Plug-in protectors can only be part of the 'secondary' protection layer.  And then we put numbers to it.  That 'whole house' protector does 99.5% to 99.9% of the protection (according to an industry standard).  That leaves a plug-in protector to add maybe another 0.2% protection.  So yes it does protection.  And then we include numbers.  Near zero protection.
*
bodo you westom.

that's why SPD installation requires the wiring be as close as possible to the earth connection. less than 50cm from the SPD to the main earth connection.

and malaysian standard requires the earth connection to be less than 4 ohm. less than 4 ohm westom. meaning from 0 till 4 ohm. 0 1 2 3 4 ohm. 0 ohm is preferable. 0.01 is also good. the lower the better.
and SPD connection must be less than 50cm to the main earth connection. the shorter the better.

class 3 must be supplemented by class 2.
class 2 or class 1 must be low impedance short connection to earth.
earth must be less than 4 ohm.

where does it differ than your concept of understanding westom?
sigh.

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


This post has been edited by paskal: Sep 9 2017, 12:57 AM
westom
post Sep 9 2017, 03:24 AM

Getting Started
**
Junior Member
228 posts

Joined: Mar 2009
QUOTE(paskal @ Sep 8 2017, 08:53 PM)
where does it differ than your concept of understanding westom?
Trends (concepts) are same. But details vary. Differences are found in perspective - numbers.

First, ohms are irrelevant. Impedance is relevant.

For example, an AC electric wire from main circuit breaker to a wall receptacle might be 15 meters. That means its ohms are probably less than 0.2. But impedance of that same wire might be 120 ohms. A trivial 100 amp surge down that wire would result in a voltage of less than (100 amps times 120 ohms) 12,000 volts. That is voltage on a class three protector and attached appliances at 12,000 volts.

An IEEE guide demonstrates this. A power strip protector in one room results in that surge being earthed 8000 volts destructively via a TV in an adjacent room. Protector was too far from earth ground. Impedance (not resistance) is the critical parameter. Any splices, sharp bends, metallic conduit, or wire that is too long compromises protection.

50 cm is better. How is each incoming AC electric wire (to the MCB) connected 50 cm to that earthing electrode? Connection from each incoming AC electric wire to an earthing electrode must be as short as practicable. 50 cm is better. But a connection from the MCB connected wire to the earth ground electrode through and including that SPD should be less than 3 meters, no sharp bends, etc. The entire distance is relevant; which includes distance through an SPD.

Second, plug-in (called class three) protectors are near zero protection. As demonstrated by numbers. As demonstrated by an above cited IEEE guide. As demonstrated by so many professional paper including one from the legendary Dr Martzloff.

Third, speed of a protector is also irrelevant. All are more than fast enough. For example, how fast is an MOV (varistor)? That speed varies significantly if measured at the body or measured 5 cm down its lead. Protector parts are so fast enough that even wire length significantly changes its reaction time.

Those are nanosecond numbers. Surges are microsecond events. Protector part are more than fast enough. How to make it faster? Lower impedance (not resistance).

Class 1 or class 2 protectors are more than sufficient by themselves. That class number says nothing about protection. That class number only defines how it must be installed to protect human life. What makes both effective for all types of surges? Again the relevant specification number. Effective protectors are rated to connect to earth at least 50,000 amps. A protector rated to earth direct lightning strikes and remain effective means protection from lesser surges is also superior - even better. Then best protection inside all appliances (that make irrelevant those class three protectors) is not overwhelmed.

No numbers are posted to justify a class 3 protector. Numbers are provided that explains why a class 3 protector can make damage easier. Numbers are also provided that explains why class 3 protectors must not be used if the class 1 or 2 (service entrance) protectors do not exist and are not properly earthed.

Numbers also explain how much protection an expensive class 3 protector provides. About 0.2% of the protection.

Again from that industry standard that defines 99.5% protection:
QUOTE
Still, a 99.5% protection level will reduce the incidence of direct strokes from one stroke per 30 years ... to one stroke per 6000 years ...   Protection at 99.5% is the practical choice.

Where must most all homeowner attention focus? On that low impedance (ie less than 3 meter) connection to and quality of earth ground electrodes.

This post has been edited by westom: Sep 9 2017, 03:37 AM
westom
post Sep 9 2017, 03:33 AM

Getting Started
**
Junior Member
228 posts

Joined: Mar 2009
An article in The Computer Journal / #49 entitled "Computer Network Power Protection Problems, Myths and Solutions" by Wendell H. Laldley discussed what was discovered in research for an IEEE paper.

QUOTE
Given this problem, the powerline ground conductor should not be used as a surge sink with interconnected computers where it is needed for voltage reference by datalines.

The damage caused by diverting surges to ground in networked electronics was first reported by Francois Martzloff in the 1988 IEEE paper "Coupling Propagation and Side Effects of Surges in an Industrial Building".  Martzloff's research team was performing surge tests on an office building over a weekend, and when the office workers returned Monday morning they found their printers did not work and the printer data ports had been damaged. Initially, the research team had not expected that surges they had applied only to the powerline would have damaged datalines. On reflection, they recognized that the powerline surges had indeed been diverted by shunt surge protectors into the printer datalines

We saw same in a analysis required for a design review. Plug-in protectors earthed a surge into attached and powered off computers. In that case, an outgoing path was via some other computer on the same network and connected to a phone line. Phone line had a 'whole house' protector installed for free by the telco. So that is how 'class 3' protectors connected a surge destructively through the entire network of powered off computers ... to earth.

Been doing this stuff for quite a few decades.

This post has been edited by westom: Sep 9 2017, 03:34 AM
Richard
post Sep 9 2017, 07:45 AM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,083 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Kota Kinabalu


Read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_impedance

QUOTE(westom @ Sep 9 2017, 03:24 AM)
First, ohms are irrelevant.  Impedance is relevant.

For example, an AC electric wire from main circuit breaker to a wall receptacle might be 15 meters.  That means its ohms are probably less than 0.2.  But impedance of that same wire might be 120 ohms.  A trivial 100 amp surge down that wire would result in a voltage of less than (100 amps times 120 ohms) 12,000 volts.  That is voltage on a class three protector and attached appliances at 12,000 volts.

An IEEE guide demonstrates this.  A power strip protector in one room results in that surge being earthed 8000 volts destructively via a TV in an adjacent room.  Protector was too far from earth ground.  Impedance (not resistance) is the critical parameter.  Any splices, sharp bends, metallic conduit,  or wire that is too long compromises protection. 

*
You are talking in circles..

In programming what you're doing is known as a circular reference which results in an error..

Which is why I say you are an internet troll..

Read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll






paskal
post Sep 9 2017, 10:17 AM

armchair commando couch potato
*******
Senior Member
2,796 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Darul Aman
I hate you westom.
But sure I'll play along.

QUOTE(westom @ Sep 9 2017, 03:24 AM)
Trends (concepts) are same.  But details vary.  Differences are found in perspective - numbers.

First, ohms are irrelevant.  Impedance is relevant.

For example, an AC electric wire from main circuit breaker to a wall receptacle might be 15 meters.  That means its ohms are probably less than 0.2.  But impedance of that same wire might be 120 ohms.  A trivial 100 amp surge down that wire would result in a voltage of less than (100 amps times 120 ohms) 12,000 volts.  That is voltage on a class three protector and attached appliances at 12,000 volts.

An IEEE guide demonstrates this.  A power strip protector in one room results in that surge being earthed 8000 volts destructively via a TV in an adjacent room.  Protector was too far from earth ground.  Impedance (not resistance) is the critical parameter.  Any splices, sharp bends, metallic conduit,  or wire that is too long compromises protection. 

50 cm is better.  How is each incoming AC electric wire (to the MCB) connected 50 cm to that earthing electrode?  Connection from each incoming AC electric wire to an earthing electrode must be as short as practicable.  50 cm is better.  But a connection from the MCB connected wire to the earth ground electrode through and including that SPD should be less than 3 meters, no sharp bends, etc.  The entire distance is relevant; which includes distance  through an SPD.

Second, plug-in (called class three) protectors are near zero protection.  As demonstrated by numbers.  As demonstrated by an above cited IEEE guide.  As demonstrated by so many professional paper including one from the legendary Dr Martzloff.

Third, speed of a protector is also irrelevant.  All are more than fast enough.  For example, how fast is an MOV (varistor)?  That speed varies significantly if measured at the body or measured 5 cm down its lead.  Protector parts are so fast enough that even wire length significantly changes its reaction time. 

Those are nanosecond numbers.  Surges are microsecond events.  Protector part are more than fast enough.  How to make it faster?  Lower impedance (not resistance).

Class 1 or class 2 protectors are more than sufficient by themselves.  That class number says nothing about protection.  That class number only defines how it must be installed to protect human life.  What makes both effective for all types of surges?  Again the relevant specification number.  Effective protectors are rated to connect to earth at least 50,000 amps.  A protector rated to earth direct lightning strikes and remain effective means protection from lesser surges is also superior - even better.  Then best protection inside all appliances (that make irrelevant those class three protectors) is not overwhelmed.

No numbers are posted to justify a class 3 protector.  Numbers are provided that explains why a class 3 protector can make damage easier.  Numbers are also provided that explains why class 3 protectors must not be used if the class 1 or 2 (service entrance) protectors do not exist and are not properly earthed.

Numbers also explain how much protection an expensive class 3 protector provides.  About 0.2% of the protection.
Westom I can't stick to your 3m rule westom.
Because from the fusebox to ground electrode is more than 3m.

Do you suggest I move the ground electrode inside of the house or move the fusebox outside of the house? To adhere to your 3m rule.
Please advice.

QUOTE
Again from that industry standard that defines 99.5% protection:
Where must most all homeowner attention focus?  On that low impedance (ie less than 3 meter) connection to and quality of earth ground electrodes.
*
Westom where is this industry standard?
Please state the source so I can read the standard. Thanks
ozak
post Sep 9 2017, 11:56 AM

10k Club
********
All Stars
16,546 posts

Joined: Jan 2005


QUOTE(paskal @ Sep 9 2017, 10:17 AM)
I hate you westom.
But sure I'll play along.
Westom I can't stick to your 3m rule westom.
Because from the fusebox to ground electrode is more than 3m.

Do you suggest I move the ground electrode inside of the house or move the fusebox outside of the house? To adhere to your 3m rule.
Please advice.
Westom where is this industry standard?
Please state the source so I can read the standard. Thanks
*
Why you still layan him?

If understand, move along lor. He will never finish with the long whining explanation.

Just plunge a few rod around the perimeter house. Join with copper strip. That is the shortest way to get to 3m rule.

He don't understand is, we live in the link terrace house which don't have own yard for left and right side. We can't follow the 3m rule. Unless crack the tile/ floor to plunge the rod down inside the house along the wall.
paskal
post Sep 9 2017, 12:04 PM

armchair commando couch potato
*******
Senior Member
2,796 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Darul Aman
QUOTE(ozak @ Sep 9 2017, 11:56 AM)
Why you still layan him?

If understand, move along lor. He will never finish with the long whining explanation.

Just plunge a few rod around the perimeter house. Join with copper strip. That is the shortest way to get to 3m rule.

He don't understand is, we live in the link terrace house which don't have own yard for left and right side. We can't follow the 3m rule. Unless crack the tile/ floor to plunge the rod down inside the house along the wall.
*
Wait for him to reply first
laugh.gif
Richard
post Sep 9 2017, 07:40 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,083 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Kota Kinabalu


QUOTE(westom @ Sep 9 2017, 03:33 AM)
An article in The Computer Journal / #49 entitled "Computer Network Power Protection Problems, Myths and Solutions" by Wendell H. Laldley discussed what was discovered in research for an IEEE paper.
We saw same in a analysis required for a design review.  Plug-in protectors earthed a surge into attached and powered off computers.  In that case, an outgoing path was via some other computer on the same network and connected to a phone line.  Phone line had a 'whole house' protector installed for free by the telco.  So that is how 'class 3' protectors connected a surge destructively through the entire network of powered off computers ...  to earth.

Been doing this stuff for quite a few decades.
*
For someone so experienced having almost a solid wall of text explaining simple concepts is foolish..

and
QUOTE(westom @ Sep 9 2017, 12:26 AM)
Why would anyone drive earth ground rods inside (through a floor)?  Why would anyone install earth ground rods that do nothing useful?  Protection is always about no current inside.

All appliances already contain robust protection that makes anything inside the structure (ie switching) completely irrelevant.  Earth ground rods (to create a single point earth ground) must be outside.  Then best protection (even from rumored interior transients) exists.  That is how it is done everywhere in the world.

Protectors adjacent to appliances (without an earth ground) do not even claim to provide effective protection.  Read specification numbers.  Anything those might do is already made irrelevant by what already exists and is better inside appliances.

Protection from all types of surges is same protection also installed to protect from lightning.  (Those are also called class one or two protectors with numbers already provided.)  Voltage only exists if a protector is undersized or if earth ground is insufficient.  Protection is never about voltage.  Protection is about a constant current.  Voltage only exists when someone foolishly tries to 'block' or to 'absorb' that surge inside.

Protection is only and has always been about that current not anywhere inside.  And so a low impedance (ie hardwire has no sharp bends or splices) connection to single point earth ground means current remains outside; only creates a near zero voltage.  Then best protection already inside every appliance is not overwhelmed.

Again, class says nothing about effective appliance protection.  Class only says whether a protector will threaten human life (ie create a fire).
*
Its bullshit..

QUOTE(westom @ Sep 9 2017, 03:24 AM)
Trends (concepts) are same.  But details vary.  Differences are found in perspective - numbers.

First, ohms are irrelevant.  Impedance is relevant.

For example, an AC electric wire from main circuit breaker to a wall receptacle might be 15 meters.  That means its ohms are probably less than 0.2.  But impedance of that same wire might be 120 ohms.  A trivial 100 amp surge down that wire would result in a voltage of less than (100 amps times 120 ohms) 12,000 volts.  That is voltage on a class three protector and attached appliances at 12,000 volts.

An IEEE guide demonstrates this.  A power strip protector in one room results in that surge being earthed 8000 volts destructively via a TV in an adjacent room.  Protector was too far from earth ground.  Impedance (not resistance) is the critical parameter.  Any splices, sharp bends, metallic conduit,  or wire that is too long compromises protection. 

50 cm is better.  How is each incoming AC electric wire (to the MCB) connected 50 cm to that earthing electrode?  Connection from each incoming AC electric wire to an earthing electrode must be as short as practicable.  50 cm is better.  But a connection from the MCB connected wire to the earth ground electrode through and including that SPD should be less than 3 meters, no sharp bends, etc.  The entire distance is relevant; which includes distance  through an SPD.

Second, plug-in (called class three) protectors are near zero protection.  As demonstrated by numbers.  As demonstrated by an above cited IEEE guide.  As demonstrated by so many professional paper including one from the legendary Dr Martzloff.

Third, speed of a protector is also irrelevant.  All are more than fast enough.  For example, how fast is an MOV (varistor)?  That speed varies significantly if measured at the body or measured 5 cm down its lead.  Protector parts are so fast enough that even wire length significantly changes its reaction time. 

Those are nanosecond numbers.  Surges are microsecond events.  Protector part are more than fast enough.  How to make it faster?  Lower impedance (not resistance).

Class 1 or class 2 protectors are more than sufficient by themselves.  That class number says nothing about protection.  That class number only defines how it must be installed to protect human life.  What makes both effective for all types of surges?  Again the relevant specification number.  Effective protectors are rated to connect to earth at least 50,000 amps.  A protector rated to earth direct lightning strikes and remain effective means protection from lesser surges is also superior - even better.  Then best protection inside all appliances (that make irrelevant those class three protectors) is not overwhelmed.

No numbers are posted to justify a class 3 protector.  Numbers are provided that explains why a class 3 protector can make damage easier.  Numbers are also provided that explains why class 3 protectors must not be used if the class 1 or 2 (service entrance) protectors do not exist and are not properly earthed.

Numbers also explain how much protection an expensive class 3 protector provides.  About 0.2% of the protection.

Again from that industry standard that defines 99.5% protection:
Where must most all homeowner attention focus?  On that low impedance (ie less than 3 meter) connection to and quality of earth ground electrodes.
*
some facts mixed with more crap while getting the definition of electrical impedance totally screwed up wrong..

You are a troll..

Zot
post Sep 9 2017, 09:33 PM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
7,592 posts

Joined: Mar 2014
QUOTE(Richard @ Sep 8 2017, 09:14 PM)
You can install it that way ..

but logically a high enough leaking current will trip the RCD..

A high Voltage will take the closest path to Earth..

A very high voltage(say thousands of Volt) sees an SPD (which stops normal 230V) as a short circuit to earth..

and the electron flow (residual current) trips the RCD..

This should be the better way to install an SPD..
*
I'm referring to Schneider article here on 1st page:
http://www2.schneider-electric.com/resourc...vices%20SPD.pdf

The reason behind it is that the Type 2 SPD will force the RCD (Incoming Circuit Breaker in the diagram) to trip and at the same time protect the sensitive electronics devices downstream. By tripping the RCD, the house will be isolated and the SPD will not be exposed by prolonged surge as it is not designed for that purpose.

RCD is not fast enough to protect modern electronics devices. If you put SPD upstream before RCD, it is more like you are protecting RCD at the risk of SPD laugh.gif . Please note that SPD has its rating and once failed, the excess voltage will travel downstream. So, the electronics devices are now at the hand of the ECD if the SPD is installed upstream, but RCD is not fast device.

Remember that the lightning needs not to hit directly on TNB cable. The surge voltage and current can be induced by nearby lightning. I think this is the reason why you still need Type 3 SPD near the devices you are protecting if you have long wire distance after Type 2 SPD. Long electrical cable will easily pick up induced voltage. For the same reason if you have lightning arrestor, you are advised to install also Type 1 because lightning arrestor attract lightning (as it's name say laugh.gif ) and produce much higher induced voltage.

This is how I see it smile.gif
Zot
post Sep 9 2017, 09:37 PM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
7,592 posts

Joined: Mar 2014
QUOTE(ozak @ Sep 9 2017, 11:56 AM)
Why you still layan him?

If understand, move along lor. He will never finish with the long whining explanation.

Just plunge a few rod around the perimeter house. Join with copper strip. That is the shortest way to get to 3m rule.

He don't understand is, we live in the link terrace house which don't have own yard for left and right side. We can't follow the 3m rule. Unless crack the tile/ floor to plunge the rod down inside the house along the wall.
*
QUOTE(paskal @ Sep 9 2017, 12:04 PM)
Wait for him to reply first
laugh.gif
*
Lightning arrestor is different subject an d I would say is not an easy subject. It is not SPD. Lighting arrestor and surge protector are two different thing. smile.gif
weikee
post Sep 9 2017, 09:47 PM

10k Club
********
All Stars
12,019 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
Way way out of topic already.

All the later discussion should fall under passive protection. It really need professional to evaluate and implement.
ozak
post Sep 9 2017, 10:51 PM

10k Club
********
All Stars
16,546 posts

Joined: Jan 2005


QUOTE(Zot @ Sep 9 2017, 09:37 PM)
Lightning arrestor is different subject an d I would say is not an easy subject. It is not SPD. Lighting arrestor and surge protector are two different thing.  smile.gif
*
It is class 1 and class 2 thing. And Paskal got new 1, class 3.

I deal with surge protector more. Or so called class 2. (maybe class 3)
paskal
post Sep 10 2017, 06:56 AM

armchair commando couch potato
*******
Senior Member
2,796 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Darul Aman
QUOTE(Zot @ Sep 9 2017, 09:37 PM)
Lightning arrestor is different subject an d I would say is not an easy subject. It is not SPD. Lighting arrestor and surge protector are two different thing.  smile.gif
*
Consumer grade lightning protection that a consumer can buy is SPD.
Consumer can't buy and can't install lightning arrestor on transmission towers.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_arrester
SUSadvocado
post Sep 10 2017, 11:51 AM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
2,948 posts

Joined: Jun 2007
QUOTE(thailover @ Sep 6 2017, 07:49 AM)
See photos. I have 320 power points and lots of aircond points.

Mega Kabel is no doubt the best cable available in Malaysia. Try not to loop so many points with a set of cable. Mine maximum 3 points. Some 2 points only.
*
hi, if there is 1 existing power plug, and i want to add a few more for:

1.Induction Cooker (4 in 1)
2.Oven
3.Exhaust Vent
4.Ventilation fan
5.Wall fan
6.Another maybe water boiler.

how many do i need & what is the best way to add the plugs & cable?

can you recommend the spec and maybe brand for the plug & cable?

This post has been edited by advocado: Sep 10 2017, 11:57 AM
weikee
post Sep 10 2017, 12:06 PM

10k Club
********
All Stars
12,019 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
QUOTE(advocado @ Sep 10 2017, 11:51 AM)
hi, if there is 1 existing power plug, and i want to add a few more for:

1.Induction Cooker (4 in 1)
2.Oven
3.Exhaust Vent
4.Ventilation fan
5.Wall fan
6.Another maybe water boiler.

how many do i need & what is the best way to add the plugs & cable?

can you recommend the spec and maybe brand for the plug & cable?
*
Assuming #6 is kettle.

#1, #2, #6 are draw current like crazy. Don't every share with same plug. Have to direct go to MCB. Unless you can guarantee only one is switch on at a time. Any two running you risk burning the cable after few mins.

#1 need to check the max wattage use, some stove can use up to 4000watt, and that need 4mm2 cable. If 3000watt or below, 2.5.. is still ok.

#2 same as #1

#6 Kettle usually 1500 - 2500watt, 2.5mm2 is sufficient.

SUSadvocado
post Sep 10 2017, 12:15 PM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
2,948 posts

Joined: Jun 2007
QUOTE(weikee @ Sep 10 2017, 12:06 PM)
Assuming #6 is kettle.

#1, #2, #6 are draw current like crazy. Don't every share with same plug. Have to direct go to MCB. Unless you can guarantee only one is switch on at a time. Any two running you risk burning the cable after few mins.

#1 need to check the max wattage use, some stove can use up to 4000watt, and that need 4mm2 cable. If 3000watt or below, 2.5.. is still ok.

#2 same as #1

#6 Kettle usually 1500 - 2500watt, 2.5mm2 is sufficient.
*
hi, when you say direct to MCB, means have to pull 3 new lines? meaning have to smash the walls to install the cables, or is there an easy way to pull them without them being exposed from the MCB (from the plug it's ok to be exposed as they can be hidden behind cabinets)?

also do the fixed inductor cookers take similar power as those portable ones (per stove)?

most apartments don't really provide so many power plugs.
westom
post Sep 10 2017, 12:18 PM

Getting Started
**
Junior Member
228 posts

Joined: Mar 2009
Surge protector, TVSS, SPD, etc are all same. All are for potentially destructive transients. Lightning is one of many examples. Any protector that does not protect from lightning and those other potentially destructive transients is, well, many buy those plug-in protectors base in no facts, no numbers, and insults and emotional denials such as from the emotional paskel and richard. One understands some concepts. But neither do this stuff, have no experience, and are posting only facts promoted by near zero (ineffective) manufacturers.

This fact will always be avoided by the emotional two. Where are hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly absorbed? For over 100 years, effective (and properly earthed) protectors have been doing that. Protection of appliances is separated from protection of human life. Class numbers are only about installing a protector where it will not also threaten human life. But protection of appliances is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate.

Any protectors without that dedicated wire to earth does not claim to protect from all transients - including the typically destructive ones such as lightning. That earthing connection defines protection during each surge.

Protector life expectancy is defined by another number (ie 50,000 amps). That defines protection over many surges. All numbers that are completely ignored by the emotional naysayers.

Effective protection means the consumer knows where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed. How many hear refuse to discuss such numbers? A protector is only as effective as its earth ground (which is not a wall receptacle's safety ground). 100 years of well proven science and experience did not change because some have been educated by hearsay, speculation, advertising, and claims made without specification numbers.

weikee
post Sep 10 2017, 12:20 PM

10k Club
********
All Stars
12,019 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
QUOTE(advocado @ Sep 10 2017, 12:15 PM)
hi, when you say direct to MCB, means have to pull 3 new lines? meaning have to smash the walls to install the cables, or is there an easy way to pull them without them being exposed from the MCB (from the plug it's ok to be exposed as they can be hidden behind cabinets)?

also do the fixed inductor cookers take similar power as those portable ones (per stove)?

most apartments don't really provide so many power plugs.
*
Pull a pair for each point (Live and Neutral), Earth cable don't need and not suppose to carry high current, even it need maybe only 1sec or less and it will trip the circuit.

If hacking is not possible use expose with conduit or hide behind plaster ceiling. No easy way unless you want to get your house burned.

That is reason why when buying new house/apartment the developer will ask buyer to add any additional points.

SUSadvocado
post Sep 10 2017, 12:26 PM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
2,948 posts

Joined: Jun 2007
QUOTE(weikee @ Sep 10 2017, 12:20 PM)
Pull a pair for each point (Live and Neutral), Earth cable don't need and not suppose to carry high current, even it need maybe only 1sec or less and it will trip the circuit.

If hacking is not possible use expose with conduit or hide behind plaster ceiling. No easy way unless you want to get your house burned.

That is reason why when buying new house/apartment the developer will ask buyer to add any additional points.
*
which makes me wonder why they don't just provide an easy access cable route so buyers can post install the wires without hacking up the wall just for it.

or at least put few cable guides so we can just pull the cable from 1 end to another.
weikee
post Sep 10 2017, 02:25 PM

10k Club
********
All Stars
12,019 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
QUOTE(advocado @ Sep 10 2017, 12:26 PM)
which makes me wonder why they don't just provide an easy access cable route so buyers can post install the wires without hacking up the wall just for it.

or at least put few cable guides so we can just pull the cable from 1 end to another.
*
One is cheap, entire housing will be expensive. Who paying for it?
westom
post Sep 11 2017, 08:31 PM

Getting Started
**
Junior Member
228 posts

Joined: Mar 2009
del

This post has been edited by westom: Sep 11 2017, 08:33 PM
paskal
post Sep 11 2017, 08:42 PM

armchair commando couch potato
*******
Senior Member
2,796 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Darul Aman
QUOTE(westom @ Sep 10 2017, 12:18 PM)
Surge protector, TVSS, SPD, etc are all same.  All are for potentially destructive transients.  Lightning is one of many examples.  Any protector that does not protect from lightning and those other potentially destructive transients is, well, many buy those plug-in protectors base in no facts, no numbers, and insults and emotional denials such as from the emotional paskel and richard.    One understands some concepts.  But neither do this stuff, have no experience, and are posting only facts promoted by near zero (ineffective) manufacturers.

This fact will always be avoided by the emotional two.  Where are hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly absorbed?  For over 100 years, effective (and properly earthed) protectors have been doing that.  Protection of appliances is separated from protection of human life.  Class numbers are only about installing a protector where it will not also threaten human life.  But protection of appliances is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate.

Any protectors without that dedicated wire to earth does not claim to protect from all transients - including the typically destructive ones such as lightning.  That earthing connection defines protection during each surge. 

Protector life expectancy is defined by another number (ie 50,000 amps).  That defines protection over many surges.  All numbers that are completely ignored by the emotional naysayers.

Effective protection means the consumer knows where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed.  How many hear refuse to discuss such numbers?  A protector is only as effective as its earth ground (which is not a wall receptacle's safety ground).  100 years of well proven science and experience did not change because some have been educated by hearsay, speculation, advertising, and claims made without specification numbers.
*
But westom my ground rod is stuck into the ground outside of the house. And the fusebox is inside of the house more than 3m from the rod.

Do you suggest me to move the rod inside of the house or move the fusebox outside of the house?
Please advice me westom. I seriously don't know what to do westom.

Kah kah kah
Richard
post Sep 11 2017, 10:43 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,083 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Kota Kinabalu


QUOTE(advocado @ Sep 10 2017, 12:26 PM)
which makes me wonder why they don't just provide an easy access cable route so buyers can post install the wires without hacking up the wall just for it.

or at least put few cable guides so we can just pull the cable from 1 end to another.
*
The guidelines are from Suruhanjaya Tenaga..

- One circuit of 2x2.5mm2 + 2.5mm2 ECC only allows 2 nos 1x13A switched socket outlets protected by one SP (single pole) 20A mcb.. No more..

It's an issue of regulation and safety..

It is up to you ..
SUSadvocado
post Sep 11 2017, 10:53 PM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
2,948 posts

Joined: Jun 2007
QUOTE(Richard @ Sep 11 2017, 10:43 PM)
The guidelines are from Suruhanjaya Tenaga..

- One circuit of 2x2.5mm2 + 2.5mm2 ECC only allows 2 nos 1x13A switched socket outlets protected by one SP (single pole) 20A mcb.. No more..

It's an issue of regulation and safety..

It is up to you ..
*
what do you mean by 2x2.5mm2 + 2.5mm2? i noob with electricity.

anyway how to check the circuit board how many additional socket & switches i can add? as i need to add 1 for oven, 1 for induction cooker, 1 for kettle & 3 normal sockets for wall fan/cooking exhaust/ventilation fan. I'm guessing the 1st 3 require individual wiring & switch while the fans can share a plug or use extension plug?

might not be using induction & electric oven but it's for future possible use.

typically normal boards the fuse & wire can support 40-45A switches?

also i went to Homepro, but i only found a 13A socket designed for "cooker", couldn't find any 40-45A switches. do normal shops actually sell them?

also the cables i found 4mm2 cables around rm200 per round (not sure the length), it prints Sirim so is it safe to say they are good?
Richard
post Sep 11 2017, 10:57 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,083 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Kota Kinabalu


QUOTE(westom @ Sep 10 2017, 12:18 PM)

Any protector that does not protect from lightning and those other potentially destructive transients is, well, many buy those plug-in protectors base in no facts, no numbers, and insults and emotional denials such as from the emotional paskel and richard.   

This fact will always be avoided by the emotional two.

*


Let's get back to basics..

Ohm's Law..
-------------

For DC Voltage = Resistance(Zero phasor) x Current

For AC Voltage = Impedance(resistance + reactance) x Current

Lightning is fundamentally DC,

Arc caused betw clouds(more electrons) to earth(less electrons).. there is no frequency thus no impedance..

Your continual argument of impedance relating to lightning are all lies..

I have reported your posts here and I hope those with basic electrical fundamentals support me to report you as well..

You are a troll..
tdb
post Sep 11 2017, 11:09 PM

New Member
*
Newbie
8 posts

Joined: Jul 2013
Sorry for hijacking, I got some question regarding wifi switch, any one using broadlink tc2 switch on led down light?
Why it keep blinking and the led light still on after switch off the wifi switch . I already install the 3 led adapter on a gang which control 2 unit of 18w led light . So mean 2*18 = 36w on a gang .Any one know to to solve this problem ? Do I need to use neutral? Thank you
westom
post Sep 12 2017, 02:23 AM

Getting Started
**
Junior Member
228 posts

Joined: Mar 2009
QUOTE(Richard @ Sep 11 2017, 06:57 PM)
Lightning is fundamentally DC,
Lightning is DC? Please.

A naysayer posts numerous cheapshots due to his technical knowledge. Apparently that knowledge is taught in Hogwarts School. He believes DC radio waves are created by lightning's DC current. It explains so many inaccurate and demeaning attacks. He has no idea what impedance is, why it is significant, and why surge protection is always about impedance - not resistance. He does not even know that lightning is electrical currents at many frequencies.

DC lightning is the radio frequency interference heard on radios. Go figure. Some here, who make these claims and never post numbers, are always best ignored.

This post has been edited by westom: Sep 12 2017, 02:26 AM
Richard
post Sep 12 2017, 06:08 AM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,083 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Kota Kinabalu


QUOTE(westom @ Sep 12 2017, 02:23 AM)
Lightning is DC? Please.

A naysayer posts numerous cheapshots due to his technical knowledge. Apparently that knowledge is taught in Hogwarts School.  He believes DC radio waves are created by lightning's DC current.  It explains so many inaccurate and demeaning attacks.  He has no idea what impedance is, why it is significant, and why surge protection is always about impedance - not resistance.  He does not even know that lightning is electrical currents at many frequencies.

DC lightning is the radio frequency interference heard on radios. Go figure.  Some here, who make these claims and never post numbers, are always best ignored.
*
I say fundamentally..

The argument of lightning being ac and dc has been around forever..

it being a transient makes it fundamentally dc ..
westom
post Sep 12 2017, 03:05 PM

Getting Started
**
Junior Member
228 posts

Joined: Mar 2009
QUOTE(Richard @ Sep 12 2017, 02:08 AM)
it being a transient makes it fundamentally dc ..
That was always the hilarious joke in engineering class - a DC transient. Since it exists, then light is also invisible. It gets late early around here. Deafening silence. A "dark emitting diode" (DED). And intense apathy.

Anyone with simplest electrical knowledge knows that lightning clearly is not and never was DC.

alexander3133
post Sep 12 2017, 08:35 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,649 posts

Joined: May 2006
From: JDT


QUOTE(westom @ Sep 12 2017, 03:05 PM)
That was always the hilarious joke in engineering class - a DC transient.  Since it exists, then light is also invisible.  It gets late early around here.  Deafening silence. A "dark emitting diode" (DED).  And intense apathy.

Anyone with simplest electrical knowledge knows that lightning clearly is not and never was DC.
*
In my opinion, lightning is a form of DC + AC.

westom
post Sep 12 2017, 10:23 PM

Getting Started
**
Junior Member
228 posts

Joined: Mar 2009
QUOTE(alexander3133 @ Sep 12 2017, 04:35 PM)
In my opinion, lightning is a form of DC + AC.
Almost all energy and the energy that is most destructive is AC.

Sometimes lightning is not even a highest energy transient. If effective protection is not properly earthed, then a follow through current may exist. It often has higher energy. But that is well beyond a comprehension level here.

Protection is always about a path that (for example) connects a cloud to earthborne changes (often many kilometers distant). If that electric current path remains outside a structure, then robust protection already inside every appliance is not overwhelmed. That current stays out (protection increases) when that path's impedance (not resistance) decreases.

For example, to increase protection, telcos locate CO protectors distant (up to 50 meters) from electronics. That separation between protector and electronics increases protection. All this because surges (including lightning) are AC currents.

paskal
post Sep 13 2017, 06:38 PM

armchair commando couch potato
*******
Senior Member
2,796 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
From: Darul Aman
QUOTE(westom @ Sep 12 2017, 10:23 PM)
Almost all energy and the energy that is most destructive is AC.

Sometimes lightning is not even a highest energy transient.  If effective protection is not properly earthed, then a follow through current may exist.  It often has higher energy.  But that is well beyond a comprehension level here.

Protection is always about a path that (for example) connects a cloud to earthborne changes (often many kilometers distant).  If that electric current path remains outside a structure, then robust protection already inside every appliance is not overwhelmed.  That current stays out (protection increases) when that path's impedance (not resistance) decreases.

For example, to increase protection, telcos locate CO protectors distant (up to 50 meters) from electronics.  That separation between protector and electronics increases protection.  All this because surges (including lightning) are AC currents.
*
but westom my incoming powerline is located at the fusebox and the ground rod is more than 3 meters away westom.
that breach your 3m rule westom.

do you suggest me to move the ground rod inside of the house?
or should i move the fusebox outside of the house next to the ground rod?
please advice westom. i seriously dunno what to do. 3 times i've asked you this simple question westom. please don't ignore my legitimate question dear westom.

kakaka puke.gif

 

Change to:
| Lo-Fi Version
0.0539sec    0.50    6 queries    GZIP Disabled
Time is now: 29th March 2024 - 05:52 PM