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> Can Mitsubishi Xpander topple Honda BRV in 2018?

Expander to beat BRV?
 
1. Yes, the force is strong with this one [ 125 ] ** [56.82%]
2. No. Only in your dream [ 95 ] ** [43.18%]
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zweimmk
post Aug 24 2017, 09:50 AM

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This data may be 10 years old and I'm a bit lazy to try to look up on the sales data -

In 2006, the Civic 8 was released. But in 2007 - Mitsubishi tried to one up Honda with their Lancer X.
They did succeed for awhile - really good price and specs too. But eventually supply couldn't keep up with Demand and over that period of time, the Civic still came out the eventual winner.

So if history is any indication of how things will be, then the BRV is probably in a better position to fend off Mitsubishi
zweimmk
post Aug 24 2017, 10:46 AM

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QUOTE(EnergyAnalyst @ Aug 24 2017, 10:04 AM)
That was when Mitsubishi was on their own. Everything was built by them and them alone?

This Xpander is going to be a shared cost model with Nissan for new grand Livina under the new Renault Nissan alliance.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-indonesi...s-idUSKBN1AQ1EE

if they can bring the cost down since the scale is up, which they should since now they could, then they have a better fighting chance if they translate that into a better equipped car with lower pricing
See the excitement as far as India below, already rendering is being drawn...LOL

http://indianautosblog.com/2017/08/2018-ni...endering-276407
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Aye, I forgot about the new alliance. Haven't been following car news much in recent years.

But even taking recent events into account.

- The ASX, Outlander, Sylphy, Teana or the X-trail does not outsell Honda's Civic, Accord, HRV or CRV
- The Almera does not outsell the City/Vios.
- The Livina has held well against no/limited competition other than the outdated Rush and the overpriced Freed.
- Direct Rival for Livina seems to be the Toyota Sienta rather than the Honda BRV
- Mitsubishi most popular model is the Triton

Basing everything off memory so take its accuracy with a grain of salt.

If the Xpander is launched for both marques, wouldn't it be in Cantonese terms - Ghost hit Ghost?

This post has been edited by zweimmk: Aug 24 2017, 10:56 AM
zweimmk
post Aug 24 2017, 02:10 PM

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QUOTE(EnergyAnalyst @ Aug 24 2017, 01:01 PM)
@zweimmk

in Malaysia, Nissan has always been a weaker brand all along compare to Honda, so was Mitsubishi. No contest.

Nissan's design has always been dated due to TCM always slow slow bring in new models and by the time they do, they are dated on the date they are launched Unlike Honda always timely with their products refresh every few years.

But Mitsubishi is not under TCM....and guess what? In the context of South East Asia Mitsubishi is regarded higher than Nissan

https://asia.nikkei.com/Features/Multinatio...ast-Asia?page=2

Take a look at the market share of Mitsubishi vs Nissan in Thailand & Indonesia below

[attachmentid=9075896]
Despite having smaller product line up, M>N in these countries in terms of market share. But more importantly if you add the market shares of both brands, it becomes over or near Honda's

That is the power of the Alliance. If Mitsubishi as a stronger brand compares to Nissan now has access to  the Alliance platform is able to expand their products offering (they need not start from ground up now) , just imagine the potential.
Last but not least guess who is #2 behind toyota in Philippine?
https://www.carmudi.com.ph/journal/local-au...-january-sales/
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


Xpander i reckon is just the start of exciting time ahead for Mitsubishi
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I was only thinking about Malaysia, I didn't realize we were also talking about other markets. Quite surprised to learn how much volume they command with the treble alliance.

In Thailand, the combined sales of Nissan and Mitsubishi should equal or better Honda. But they are in decline. It is the same story in Indonesia. Therefore, they either need a product refresh or branding refocusing

So my opinion is they should let one of the brands retreat from both Thailand and Indonesia and even Philippines to avoid the ghost hit ghost scenario. It would make better sense to consolidate their operations to better improve overall operations and profits.

For example if Mitsubishi is doing better in most of the regional markets then perhaps Nissan should retreat and let Mitsubishi take over sales. They can always cross sell the type of cars:

Mitsubishi Almera instead of Attrage
Mitsubishi Triton and Naverra (one lower and one higher spec)
Mitsubishi Lancer (instead of calling it Slyphy)
Mitsubishi ASX + Outlander
Mitsubishi X-Trail
Mitsubishi Livina and Xpander (One is mini 7 seater and the other SUV)
Mitsubishi Diamente (but using Teana)
Mitsubishi Elgrand

The days of small independent manufacturer really looks bleaker everyday forward. Platform and parts sharing is really the way forward in reducing cost.


zweimmk
post Aug 25 2017, 07:50 AM

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QUOTE(EnergyAnalyst @ Aug 25 2017, 04:06 AM)
The discussion was not never about brand power , it was about the service level of one brand which was consistently good (Top 3) and another which has declined dramatically.

Just look at the last 3 years JD power customer service index surveys and look at Mitsubishi and Honda and tell me what you see.

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I know its not an excuse but considering that they (Honda) have had an explosive growth over the last few years due to:

- More product refresh
- More car models
- Competitive pricing
- Improved specification

It's not surprisingly at all if their service level have dropped due to increased demands and stresses on the existing centers. Even in the past, Honda has never been known for very strong after sales service in my opinion.

On the other hand, Mitsubishi only have 4 car models now:

- The Attrage probably doesn't sell much. I don't even remember when was the last time I actually saw 1 on the road. This car desperately needs a refresh or a model change.
- Mirage has been discontinued
- ASX and outlander sales are far and few in between
- I wager most of their sales come from the Triton pickup

If they cannot deliver better service with such low volumes then it would really be a shame.


zweimmk
post Aug 25 2017, 07:56 AM

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So can the xpander topple the BRV in the short term if it launches here?

Yes, if its cheaper and better equipped. Also if they can keep the waiting period short and avoid the Lancer Fiasco altogether (1 year waiting period)

But historically, Mitsubishi has never really been able to overcome or keep their eye on the ball which leads them to fall behind. Maybe this new treble alliance will finally give them the edge they need to return to form.

zweimmk
post Aug 25 2017, 08:17 AM

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QUOTE(EnergyAnalyst @ Aug 24 2017, 02:50 PM)
Given this as one of the consideration , (another being the declining build quality that was reported ), one have to think twice about buying another Honda surely? And this hesitation is perhaps a room of opportunity open for Mitsubishi or others to take advantage of?
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Even if the SC service is as bad as people claims. People will still buy the Honda marque because:

- Long history in Malaysia
- Their car are relatively problem free
- Their cars have good resale value; the civic is the king when it comes to resale
- Not expensive to maintain
- Parts are easy to find, no fear of breakdown - local car mechanics have no issue dealing with T&H cars
- VTEC prangggg seems to still have a huge effect on young people today, hence the desirability

Just points 2 to 5 alone is more than enough to carry their brand.

Just to be clear also, consistent build quality is also one of Honda's weakness - First hand experience, for me - it's both irritating and a nuisance. For others, they outright hate it. But it's not something that would affect the car performance or safety. So till today, many people still bang and bitch about this issue - but it never really goes away.

Now Mitsubishi on the other hand:

- limited car selection
- except for the Triton, the other cars don't seem to carry its resale value as well
- cars should be relatively problem free
- cars should be cheap to maintain
- parts might not be as easy to find because less common but should still be relatively hassle free

It would be a very small room of opportunity. They would need to make sure those customers (like yourself) taking the leap of faith, are well taken care of so that they can build on from there.

In the near term, I don't think they will overtake Honda. Difficult to predict how they will fare long term.
zweimmk
post Aug 25 2017, 12:17 PM

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QUOTE(EnergyAnalyst @ Aug 25 2017, 11:57 AM)
How did Mazda CX5 unseated best selling c segment SUV from the long reigning honda CRV?
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Could be any of the reasons below:

Pricing?
Good Promotion?
Good kit?
More appealing design?

I remember when they first launched the CX5, it was seriously a good bargain for the kit and price. They launched the CBU unit that was quite loaded with goodies such as LED headlights and bose speakers etc.

Then when CKD production came, the price also went down - I could be wrong, just basing on what I remember or heard.

You can look at the price list as well, the CX5 base model is still cheaper than the CRV base model by 6k or 7k?

And then recently had a discussion with another member here, the distributor were selling the CX5 at extremely slim profit margins. Whereas the Mazda 6 was completely priced in a manner which did not make sense at all against its competition.

What's your take?

zweimmk
post Aug 25 2017, 12:27 PM

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QUOTE(EnergyAnalyst @ Aug 25 2017, 11:48 AM)
Low volume also does not equates to good service, can you think of other brands that have similar volume level and limited product offering and get ranked top 3 in the past 3 years?. I think it is easy to discredit a low volume seller and undermine the effort they may have put in to have a good customer service level this way. It is just too convenient and lazy to assume such way
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Irregardless, as long as they aren't screwing up on their after sales then its a good thing.

The bigger problem they have now is having a product line which will make people get excited about buying.





zweimmk
post Aug 26 2017, 09:01 AM

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QUOTE(EnergyAnalyst @ Aug 25 2017, 10:56 PM)
So since Mitsubishi and Honda authorised distributor and service centres are from the same principal DRB Hicom group of companies, are you saying Honda gives lower margin and Mitsubishi gives higher margin?

Yes I agree timing can play a role too. Wait till you see the real deal new CX5 , I have seen it in Japan . My head was turned back until it hurts , to me it looks so much sharper and premium . The new CRV still turn me off because of many quirky and jarring bordering eye sore causing design oddities . Much like BRV in certain ways
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Market conditions today are a lot more different than it was back in 2011/2012. Honda and even to some extend, Toyota, has finally started to give their cars more kit and warranty for the asking price. So it's definitely much more competitive now than it was then. Even semi-premium marques like VW has started to price their cars a lot more reasonably (no thanks to all their scandals and fiasco), and if you haven't already noticed - even premium marques like BMW/Mercedes/Volvo have even started to sell their entry level sedans at 160k to 170k marque, which may entice some of the buyers from the 140k-150k market.

Saw some photos of the new CX5 - it looks good but more like an evolution of the current design. Agree that the new CRV looks funny in some ways but one of its trump cards is the new Earth Dreams 1.5TC engine which Mazda has no counter for. Whether or not this makes a difference in sales figures is anyone's guess but for those of us who have been so used to the turbo kick, going back to NA will be somewhat of a challenge.

In the end, I think it depends on the pricing. Have you taken a look at the Mazda cars pricing?

Mazda 2 - kind of priced out of the City/Vios/Almera/Attrage war
CX3 - a little priced out against the HRV and 2008?, looks to compete against the new T-Roc
CX5 - competitive against CRV, X-trail
Mazda 3 - competitive against Civic, Altis, Jetta, 408?
Mazda 6 - completely priced out of competition against all its rivals - conti or otherwise

If the new CX5 continues the same pricing policy as the old CX5 while still giving good kit, it should be able to limit the impact of the new CRV. Difficult to say if they will maintain the sales lead but at least it will be a neck to neck battle.

The Xpander has a good chance of succeeding. Design looks good, Equipment looks decent - so it comes down to how they will price it in Malaysia. But Mitsubishi may find themselves facing the same profit margin issue that I and wkc5657 have discussed a week or 2 back. Do they go for market share while trying to survive on razor thin margins or go for better profits with the risk of pricing themselves out of the competition. This is also a problem that is facing the Kia Optima GT as well.


zweimmk
post Aug 27 2017, 09:59 AM

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QUOTE(EnergyAnalyst @ Aug 26 2017, 10:56 PM)
As far as Mazda is concerned, below is the turbo boost to Mazda's brand thanks to Toyota
https://www.forbes.com/sites/danroth/2017/0...a/#ae7ddc9d3d81

Cost will go down for Mazda in long run. I stress long run
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It's a joint electrical vehicle development and a production facility in the US. So yes, cost will go down - just not in our region. If they are building a joint production facility in Thailand, things may change considerably.

Anyway, this isn't related and it will be a few years before we know if Mitsubishi will succeed.
zweimmk
post Aug 27 2017, 12:18 PM

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QUOTE(EnergyAnalyst @ Aug 27 2017, 11:37 AM)
http://www.autonews.com/article/20150513/O...s-confront-cost

If you recall the engagement was done in 2015. This 2017 is just one  of more eventual things to come. I guess you still miss my long term emphasis... Even though I have stress it in my earlier reply to you
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I didn't miss anything because much of what you are saying won't bear fruit many years from today and isn't directly affecting our market. So there really isn't a whole lot to talk about.


zweimmk
post Aug 29 2017, 08:10 AM

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QUOTE(EnergyAnalyst @ Aug 29 2017, 07:37 AM)
If the Xpander launches here and does well, I don't see why the cross wouldn't make its way here. Both the ASX and Outlander are due for replacement (5 years or greater) anyways.

zweimmk
post Aug 29 2017, 10:12 AM

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QUOTE(EnergyAnalyst @ Aug 29 2017, 08:45 AM)
Let's hope so but with new alliance boss , the direction is still hazy
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Maybe I haven't been following, but I'm surprised you've never talked about what kind of direction Proton could be heading now that they are owned by Geely.

Will the company finally unleash its potential like Volvo or disappear into obscurity altogether except in Malaysia and other developing markets?

 

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