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> Questions for Atheists., Ask and answer anything.

ramz
post Yesterday, 08:11 AM

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QUOTE(sojurn @ Jul 22 2018, 01:28 AM)
Interesting. Never thought about it that way.
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Imagine a Creator talking to us through our own man made language, using our own man made communication tool called a book, through a few fallible human prophet, and through words that were written by more fallible humans. Talk about the most ineffective way to communicate, and this is it! Even human to human communication is far more effective than god to human! I keep using the term 'stupid god' coz he just is.
puchongite
post Yesterday, 08:16 AM

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QUOTE(sojurn @ Jul 22 2018, 01:27 AM)
Reminds me of something at my workplace. A colleague gave me the Qur'an to read. He said that the sentences are so simple, anyone could read and understand it.

I asked about why there are different sects of Islam and he said it was because of interpretation. These 2 statements seem to be in conflict. If it really is so simple, there really wouldn't be much room for interpretation.

More importantly, I'd expect a perfect being to be able to write a perfect book that is immune to misinterpretation.
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When the source is obscure and imprecise, that results in multiple interpretations. Misinterpretation is actually a misnomer here.

I am more interested to understand why people are so much indoctrinated by such 'lips service' when the facts clearly indicated otherwise.

Words are always cheap. Shout about something does not make it true. For something to be true, it needs to be demonstrated. 'Quran is simple to read and understand' is clearly demonstrated to be false.
sojurn
post Yesterday, 08:18 AM

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QUOTE(ramz @ Jul 22 2018, 08:11 AM)
Imagine a Creator talking to us through our own man made language, using our own man made communication tool called a book, through a few fallible human prophet, and through words that were written by more fallible humans. Talk about the most ineffective way to communicate, and this is it! Even human to human communication is far more effective than god to human! I keep using the term 'stupid god' coz he just is.
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Actually, I'm OK with him communicating to us using our methods of communication since that represents our limitation.

But the one thing I've always had trouble with is, if he really exists and wants us to believe him, why not talk to all mankind at the same time, in whatever language we use, and just say what he has to say.

Instead, he seems to rely on ancient books, predicated on poor evidence, such that using any amount of intellect would refute many of the things he wants.

This always confused me.
sojurn
post Yesterday, 08:21 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Jul 22 2018, 08:16 AM)
When the source is obscure and imprecise, that results in multiple interpretations. Misinterpretation is actually a misnomer here.

I am more interested to understand why people are so much indoctrinated by such 'lips service' when the facts clearly indicated otherwise.

Words are always cheap. Shout about something does not make it true. For something to be true, it needs to be demonstrated. 'Quran is simple to read and understand' is clearly demonstrated to be false.
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Start with the young. That's how to indoctrinate anyone.

Our genetics makes it that children will listen to their caretakers unconditionally when young enough.

Once that mental map is fixed, as they grow up, few things, if any, can change it.

Your requirement of "it needs to be demonstrated", is also a product of certain type of upbringing as well.

The question, IMO, that society really needs to ask itself is, which is better for us.

At the moment, the only measurable way we have, indicates that demonstration is far more important as it brought us out of the stone age and is the tool that will enable our species to survive many trials.

Just my opinion.
ramz
post Yesterday, 09:43 AM

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QUOTE(sojurn @ Jul 22 2018, 08:18 AM)
Actually, I'm OK with him communicating to us using our methods of communication since that represents our limitation.

But the one thing I've always had trouble with is, if he really exists and wants us to believe him, why not talk to all mankind at the same time, in whatever language we use, and just say what he has to say.

Instead, he seems to rely on ancient books, predicated on poor evidence, such that using any amount of intellect would refute many of the things he wants.

This always confused me.
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God can break natural laws. If He is thinking effective communication, he would use his own supernatural way. Perhaps just direct to our brain neurons. No language needed for this method.
Spear2
post Yesterday, 10:00 AM

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QUOTE(Mea Culpa @ Jul 21 2018, 11:48 PM)
But.... A creator with "freewill" ?

Is freewill a flaw?

Is the ability to choose your favourite music a flaw?

I believe (freethinker position) If God is conscious, then he has freewill.

Max Plank once said: "Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are a part of the mystery that we are trying to solve."
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We return to the basic problem of evil in the world. God chose to be evil. Then He has free will.
Spear2
post Yesterday, 10:07 AM

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QUOTE(ramz @ Jul 22 2018, 09:43 AM)
God can break natural laws. If He is thinking effective communication, he would use his own supernatural way. Perhaps just direct to our brain neurons. No language needed for this method.
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If God is interested in passing His messages to human, I don't see why He stops doing it now instead of some arbitrary times with some arbitrary persons in the past. God should also know the frailty of human mind, in all complex and delicate matters we need a team, preferably experts not 1 person, etc ... As you said, either God is really stupid or doesn't exist.
ramz
post Yesterday, 11:36 AM

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QUOTE(ramz @ Jul 22 2018, 09:43 AM)
God can break natural laws. If He is thinking effective communication, he would use his own supernatural way. Perhaps just direct to our brain neurons. No language needed for this method.
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When we ask these questions, theist will ask, are u God? You don't know how god works. So don't judge god.

I'm using my mental faculty to evaluate your religion, God. I'm sorry i don't buy your exhibits of so called evidences. If I burn in hell, so be it. My conscience is clear that I've tried my best to know you. But the evidence just don't add up.

My worst reasoning is u have no interest in us humans. You just created us and forget. We die and that's the end. But that's great news for me. My life is so much more precious without an afterlife to work on.

My best reasoning is you don't exist. How life begin we still don't understand. And it's too bad I live at a time I haven't understood yet. I'm sure one day we will know our origins. Too bad i won't be alive to witness it.
sojurn
post Yesterday, 07:50 PM

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QUOTE(ramz @ Jul 22 2018, 09:43 AM)
God can break natural laws. If He is thinking effective communication, he would use his own supernatural way. Perhaps just direct to our brain neurons. No language needed for this method.
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Well, I don't think arguing about which supernatural method is best since none have even occurred. Your opinion is that language is not needed and that might be true. I don't thunk that way as even our own inner thoughts are in some base language so it seems like a natural extension.

However, it is an irrelevant topic since it has never occurred. Even more important is why hasn't he done this? It would eliminate all doubt.
puchongite
post Yesterday, 10:11 PM

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QUOTE(Mea Culpa @ Jul 21 2018, 09:30 PM)
If you are a creator, will you want your creation to have absolute obedience? Or will you grant them freewill?

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Is human freewill compatible with the omniscient nature of God ?

God knows about the future actions or decisions of all human being .....

Is there any meaning to give free will or 'tests' to human beings when God is actually omniscient ?
Mea Culpa
post Today, 01:29 AM

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QUOTE(puchongite @ Jul 22 2018, 10:11 PM)
Is human freewill compatible with the omniscient nature of God ?

God knows about the future actions or decisions of all human being .....

Is there any meaning to give free will or 'tests' to human beings when God is actually omniscient ?
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The fact is we DONT really know how God's consciousness work.. Let alone omniscient into the equation.

Human "freewill" is a component of consciousness, a mental process when making choices.

For now its philosophical i woud say... Its almost impossible to give "freewill" a boolean expression. Causal? Random? Deliberate? Or is it an illusion?

God being "omniscient" also imply that our universe is predetermined , everthing is fixed from the beginning of time to the end, chains of cause and effect. Is this true? Well... In science we know that not everything in physics are deterministic or atleast there is a certain degrees of freedom such as in quantum probabilistic, uncertainty principlles, randomness.. And .etc.

A database supercomputer cannot be "knowing/aware" of its datas unless it is conscious. Computer memory vs human memory.

To be "omniscient or all knowing" I THINK...God needs to be the SUM of all consciousness making choices in the universe. Making Him suffers just as much as his creations. Not only that.. To be that Creator he himself must manifest into all encompasing laws, everything ever existed and will exist into the infinity . a conscious universe. Or else he cannot claim as All Knowing. He is a Creator and a creation. Makes no sense? I know..

God KNOWS every versions of you, actions/events ever existed, (lets take infinite parallel multiverse view of universe) Your freewill is to choose which version you want to live in.

This post has been edited by Mea Culpa: Today, 03:20 AM

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