Probably one of the saddest animes ever.

Nia was a spiral being that at birth was modified by the anti spirals to be their messanger and spy.

Since they modified/'created' her at birth means that when they die she dies. This is link to the alternative universe creation (and destruction at the end of the last battle) part too.

I dont know why he can smile and she can to either at the last moment. Maybe because he knows there is an after life?

But that's not true for those of you that think that. His bro and friends only appeared in the alter universe dream because his drill (soul) knows something was wrong and was seeking an answer.

And the answers that he doesn't know he bro knows. So in effect the alter universe brought them to life for that moment.

Like how the mole rat wanted to evolve to a powerful being (it's intelligence evolved enough for Boota to realise it needed that) that the alter universe created a human body for it. Thus the same for Lord Genome's body.

I know its a long winded explaination but all things in the alter universe can be made real by the will of spiral beings (anti spirals are still spiral beings).

So maybe in the end they are smiling at each other is that they know how much they love each other so much that the sadness of Nia dying doesn't matter.

But it is still sad for us.

Maxtrix happy life part I am in arguement with for 2 reasons.

1. The subs for the anime are very specific about concepts. They don't beat around the bush about it. So if they were really in a dream state they would have said so. Instead they specifically use alternate universe. This is because the Anti Spirals are actually 1 step away from being the Spirel Nemesis. Their powers has come to a point that they have create an alternate universe which is where they are at. And at the same time create universes for all the heroes so they can explore to their 'hearts' content'. Now Anti Spirals are not "devoid of emotions and desires" and aren't trying to make the heroes like that too. Want they did was try a reverse of their current tactics since their 'fear and despair' tactics don't work. They their try to give the heroes is complacency. Each heroes' desires or needs fulfilled. One of Simon's needs is to let his bro direct his life for him so all he needs to do is follow. The casket which Simon sees then his bro bends his head is Simon's true desire (Nia) but he is conflict. Be complacent or venture forward and face whatever he meets. Which then the real Kamina pop's up.

2. When the real Kamina pop's up he has invaded Simon's universe, Kamina can do this because Simon's a special case in terms of being a Spiral being or that Simon's statement that some form of Kamina and all his friends lives instead him (memories?) and because in the Anti Spirals' alternate universes your hopes and desires can manifest themselves. He asks Simon if that want he really wants? A world where life is easy (he just follows Kamina orders) and his big bro isn't as nearly as reckless that they are never in a life and death situation or the world where Simon is unsure of but never let's his fear stop him from going forward.

As for the others, they would have never realise they are in an alternate universe without Simon 'lighting' the way. After all, their are here for him and his 'drill' that pieces the heavens.

Oh last thing, the anime never mentions an after life ever. Or death and creation. Which at the end was mention that Simon is not god and he will not reincarnate anyone (unlike the Anti Spirals that can create, destroy and bring back to life whatever they want, just look at their alternate universe as an example).

"The answer is very simple. She is happy that she did not give up the fight with the anti spirals and suffered the fate of other spiral beings. After defeating the anti spirals, she still had time to spend with Simon before she disappeared and that was enough happiness for her. Her life to her is a small price to pay to save the universe."

I think it's more of she is happy that Simon did not give up on her and that he will come for her no matter what. But yes she will give up her life for the safety of her friends and the people of Earth and Simon.

The universe actually doesn't depend on her life. Simon's will is what the universe depends on or actually Earth. Remember that all the characters in this show are supports for Simon to win. But as you can see they are easily expandable. Even her, he would have driven the Drill through her to activate Cathedral Terra.

This post has been edited by RangerRed: Mar 11 2008, 04:59 PM

Not really, remember anyone with long term exposure to Simon evolve, mostly they become Spiral users if they have enough will. She may have evolved enough to sustain herself for her last wish... marrying Simon which I think became her last wish since she was taken from him just as she accepted his proposal and release (edit:realise) that she (edit: her) end is very near.

Actually, they needed her for only one thing.. yes i am gonna be cold about it... they needed her to locate the Anti Spiral homeworld. Since they so conviently took her as Simon figure out his Spiral Warp skill.

As for emo? Not really, i think he overcomed loss of a close one after Kamina's death (not sacrifice).

This post has been edited by RangerRed: Mar 11 2008, 09:40 PM

Well its really a movie about how war scares people and that the heroes involve in the war will never really get their happily ever after. It talks about motivation of bad choices like those from Lord Genome and Rossiu. They may not be the 'popular' choice but they were still in a way the right choice when it came to survival of the human race.

Maybe the best way to view Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann is consider it about a movie where everyone has everything to lose and the only thing to do is go forward and live life the best you can.

Ok I actually didn't see your earlier reply hence why I quote it. As not to sound rude that I didn't reply to it in my later posts and side stepped your POV So the 1st quotation:

They do have emotions and desire. They determination (to stop their evolotion and the rest of the Spiral beings'), they have curiousity, they have arrogence they even have pride. If you closely enough you can see it all in the anime.

Now for those of you that really want to know what Spiral Nemesis really means it means to be god. If they, the Anti Spirals was just rewrote the Universe to the way they want they will become the Spiral Nemesis. Which in a sense is a step a spiral being must pass as they evolve. That is to say, they will have to learn to control any ultimate power gainned, 'responsibility', quote Spidy. But the Anti Spirals fear that all Spiral beings will succumb to temptation and play god. Hence, why they stop themselves from evolving and in the end, ended up being a Spiral Nemesis (not the one they feared but a weaker version* hence they can live themselves with what decissions they choose for the Spiral beings*) by stopping other Spirals from evolving.

* Weaker version meaning one that does not physically destroy the universe but one that controls to a certain degree. One that builds walls instead one that pieces the heavens.
** Meaning: killing of races by the natural process of actually killing them or culling them to control their evolotion. At the last battle the Anti Spirals nearly became the Spiral Nemesis as Lord Genome himself said that anything the Anti Spirals can kill them off. But the Anti Spirals to prevent themselves from being what they fear the other Spirals were suppose to evolve to decided to curb their power and at the same level as the heroes.

Spiral energy is actually for me the process of evolotion. The anime of course puts in a more graphic and simpler package but presents in a dynamic way. The whole Spiral beings and Spiral energy is just a sub story about human beings manipulating their environment which is a statement about what we are doing now. Are we now becoming the Spiral Nemesis (the Anti Spiral type)? Are killing off so many species of creatures and shaping our planet to what we consider the ideal form instead of letting evolution taking us to next step? (edit: or is that the next step, that we kill ourselves off as we reached the end of our evolution ie the Spiral Nemesis as the Anti Spirals imagined?)

Ok the last paragraph of the 1st quote and the last paragraphs of 2nd quote are the same topic so I'll cover that now.

I didn't say Nia is a beastman. I said Nia being around Simon may have evolved her hence why the Anti Spirals was scanning her for a long time which gave Simon enough time to come get her. Yes, she has Spiral energy but like all Spiral beings it evolves slowly. Simon is an catalyst to accelerate that. Like for instance, the gay mentions before Simon met him he can't or can just barely read much less build, design and work with complexe technologies. But being around Simon accelerate his personal evolution. The others became exceptional combatants. And Kittan who has a lot of will/desire actually became a Spiral User/Warrior like Simon and Genome. So, yes Nia was born to Lord Genome and the Anti Spirals planted what we can call a control chip in her (that's a simpler way to look at it but they did it with energy).

They observed the battles between Simon and Lord Genome and earlier monitor 1st hand the progress of Lord Genome's plan to control the Spiral population. Remember that Lord Genome is not a human.

He happened to land on Earth after surrandering to the Anti Spirals and found out the humans are a low level Spiral race so to prevent them from being wiped out like his race (not sure how many of his people are left) he culled and controlled the humans like the mandate the Anti Spirals used.

Jumping back to Nia, when they took control of her, they really took control of her. They merged their energy/matter that they implanted in her at birth with every fibre of her being thus making her their's in body but apparently not in heart. So once they we destroyed their energy/matter depleted from her body and once it is all gone it was only a matter of time before her damaged body will be unstable and tastefully disintegrate.

So now to the 1st section of the 2nd quote. Simon really won't go emo. Just like when Kamina died you don't see him screaming they will pay for his death. The emo thing he did when Kamina died is become withdrawn from the others and wanted to finish battles himself because he was afraid if they let them do it they would die and leave him alone. As you can see in his speech to Lord Genome he didn't say 'die you bastich for killing my bro and all my friends and the other innocents'. He only said that is he stood in Simon's way (evolution) he will bust through him everytime.

Yes, Nia is very important because without her living through the scanning and without the ring which she kept instead of throwing away (when she was controlled) Simon would have never located the Anti Spiral planet. But Simon will never fight a war of revenge just for her against the Anti Spirals. He will fight a war of survival against them though. Which he did. And destroyed them completely.

The 1st episode is an imagining of what would happen if Simon wasn't as laid back and matured as he is in the 2nd half of the anime. Remember he is not the Spiral Nemesis. To become that he has to be at least as powerful as the Anti Spirals. Instead, it is more or less what if Simon continued trying to walk in Kamina's shadow (being reckless and arrogent) instead of being himself (which is going on with life but not letting obstacles hinder him in finding his final path in life. And what was his final path? To lead the humans to the heavens. Which he did and that's why he handed the Core Drill over to the new generation. Because the old ways (breaking through walls) don't apply anymore since there is no more enemies out to completely destroy human kind (well until the movie is released then we know if it is really a story about man's tragedy with war, that we can never leave it behind).

Here is a quote you would thought never applied to here but main story substance is this best said by my good pal, Dr. Ian Malcolm: If there is one thing the history of evolution has taught us it's that life will not be contained. Life breaks free, expands to new territory, and crashes through barriers, painfully, maybe even dangerously.

This post has been edited by RangerRed: Mar 12 2008, 08:30 AM

You're right the enemy of evolution is no evolution which is either what the Anti Spirals were doing or death. Death is what the Anti Spirals was referring to when talking about the Spiral Nemesis but as I said they themselves at Spiral Nemesis too since they are trying to stop evolution. BTW IMO the end of the universe through death is evolution (I'll explain that when I talk about Simon's emotions below).

You win, I check the official japanese site and they refer to him as human. All I can say is I blame Genome for always isolating himself from humans speices when he talks. Lofty mofo.

The problem is when you think "if my girlfriend was killed what would I do?" When it's actually what would Simon do. And Simon has demostrated that he never takes revenge for anyone's death or blames anyone (even the enemy for anyone's death). All he says is that they died fighting for what he believes in (since he is the leader) and he hopes they didn't die in vain. When Simon snaps out of his depression of the death of Kamina he realises that part of being a Spiral being is knowing that the old must die to let the new move forward. Hence, what he said in the end, "Dead people are dead people. If we revive them unwillingly, they'll just get in the way of our followers (crappiest translation I ever heard but general means things die so that new things can grow, hopefully Order finally translates the whole series so we know what he really said)." He accepted that Nia will die sometime during the cause of the rescue probably which why he tells her to hang on to herself (her original personality) so when he does manage to rescue her, he rescues the real her (not the Anti Spiral personality which would she 'died').

"I kill your best friend/big brother when you are a little kid, do you expect the little kid to go berserk and kill ppl? If I kill your girlfriend in your adult years in cold blood (because i like it) will you just sit down quietly and cry especially when you know I'm still alive laughing at you? I don't think you can compare Nia and Kamina to Simon's reaction." When Simon is a kid he has this super powerful mech and being a kid you tend to imagine yourself immortal (nothing can touch you). Secondly, the Anti Spirals didn't kill Nia, they took her captive. And are trying to control her personality. They were not laughing at him and they did state the reason why took her (to be the messenger of mankind's destruction and to analysis the data they collected). Simon was also given the facts by them for the reason of the war between them. They didn't say, "Hey, we took you GF to we can f*** with you man, hahahaha." They said, "We took Nia because she was a spy we planted a long time ago as part of a monitoring system to make sure you humans don't super evolve and destroy the universe which you are directly at fault for!"

"Hey i don't think Simon walking in Kamina's shadow makes him reckless and arrogant." Watch the episodes after Kamina's death. He was reckless and arrogant because he was depressed and thought he should be the only one that should fight. If he was to follow Kamina's style of solo combat with the power of Gurren Lagann after a while he will not value teamwork because the others will be below him in terms of power and skill. Give it more time he won't value his team anymore, more time he won't value anyone weaker than him. Jump 7-10 years to the future and anyone below his power is scum to be destroyed or enslaved.

Spiral Nemesis can come from the other Spiral races that Rossiu is having a 'peace' conference but from the dialog of the other sub-characters they are not expecting it to go well and are prepared to fight.

"There will be 2 new lagann shows apparently. The movie, which will "betray everyone's expectations in a good way"and a OVA, which will fulfill the fans of the TV series...probably a "what happened after the war" episode." I think the movie maybe a reinmagining of the series. And the OVA is the conflict of the Spiral Races for dominance of the galaxy. Whatever it is, I hope it is good!!



Yes, I and I am sure wolfx watched the anime for enjoyment value. Then like any good book we both take a good hard look at its universe and try to hear what the writers, animators and producers are trying to us. Like, any good book, every story has many layers to it. And if you happen to like the top layer we can't fault you. And no, Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann is not for children.



Or yeah Eva... the only anime that everyone thought there was a meaning to but really in the end it was the work of a drug induced and depressed writer. Please, if you think Eva has anything meaningful in it, it may be in the 1st half of the series. After that, it's all pink hippos and Lucy and the Diamonds in the sky.

wolfx, one must die for the other to survive!!!! Let me use your back to reach the heavens!!! lol

If remember Genshiken, that is the time slot where most college student can still watch anime and study.

Plus, what makes you think japanese adults don't have some form of Tivo/ Digitel recorder? How you think the fan subbers get their raws?

I'll sure stick it in the afternoon time slot too for the widest audience too. As for rating, violence does not give an anime series an adults only rating. Only graphic sex does that or perverted violence (guro).