It'll help in a big big way if the TS had given more info on his first thread on the background of what he wants to talk about.

Here's the link: http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/nst/Mon...icle/index_html

ALeUNe: any ideas what hose 6 companies are? As far as I can see from the article, all it says is, direct-sales companies. Not sure if its of the MLM type, or those DS types such as Cobra, DS-MAX and so forth though.

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Added on March 27, 2007, 8:28 pmWell, that's the sad bit. There's still the hard core supporters who go abouts claiming that just because:
- its not licensed
- Its not approved by local authorities

That does not mean that it is a scam, and that they're making money off it. It kinda reminds me of those stories on those 419 scammers though, how some of those who got scammed still denies it, and claims that those scammers were their friends even after losing their entire life's savings.

This post has been edited by fyire: Mar 27 2007, 08:28 PM

Well, a lot of such scammers tend to claim a lot of things. Take this as an example. How difficult is it really, to just take a few pics of ppl dressed in biz suits, stick on some fancy titles on them, and write up some faked testimonies from them?

Let's see...
- Return rates that r too good to be true
- Totally no physical contact address at all on their website
- Domain name registered through an anonymous domain name holding service.

Likely to be a scam.

The usual signs of a scam site:
- Domain name registration held by an anonymous holding party
- No physical contact details provided

Well, EMPAY as in em-pay.com is very much suspicious indeed, considering that there's no physical contact address on their website at all, combined with the fact that the domain name is registered under an anonymous holding party.

There's a difference between investment and gambling. Furthermore, its only those with something to gain who will wish to recruit others into something like this, especially when they themselves has already made back the money put in, but it's a different story for those whom they r now recruiting.

But the most basic question that i've asked, of which non of such HYIP supporters has been able to answer as yet, is that of reputation.

Any reputable and legal financial institution will do anything to ensure that their contact details and identity are easilly verifiable. Why? Reputation is important to them. So why is it that such scammers of which you insist are genuine investment schemes goes to such pains of hiding their own identity?

Sure, there's those who makes money, but then again, that's just as a bait.

All reputable and legitimate invesment houses will show their contact details. If their nature of business is mainly online, there will be the physical address listed online.

Again, rubbish. That is hardly an excuse for not having any physical contacts, especially where finance is concerned.


Again more rubbish. A legitimate company will need to still show their credentials which can be easily verified. Even an online tuition class where the classes r conducted virtually, if it is a regitered business, then there'll still be the need for such information to be displayed. Take note that there is a very big difference too in your example, tuition classes and finance r worlds apart when it comes to the need for reputation


More rubbish again. Where finance is concerned, there is so such thing as no need to register. In fact, finance is one of the most heavily regulated fields in the world.

Interesting question is, how can the information that they put onto their website be verified? I mean, any tom d*** or harry can just put up a website, and claim that they've got how many customers in how many countries and so on, and even photoshop some nice photos of ppl in nice biz suits giving faked testimonials. I mean, I can write up 10 very convincing testimonials in less than 20 minutes easily, and make it look like its from 10 different ppl also.

Yes, all investments has got their own risks. In fact, there's even those ppl who invest in those scams, and make money out of it because they play it right, enter and exit at the right times. But scams r still scams. If you want to invest in a scam that u think can make u money, then fine, that's your problem, but its downright dishonest to try to convince ppl to think that its a genuine investment scheme.

Exactly my point. So now that we've established that swisscash is an illegal scam, now let's look at the other points that branches out of this one.

Basically the main danger r the huge numbers of ppl out there who actually believe that this thing is a genuine investment scheme, and not to mention as well, the amount of recruiters out there who will knowingly spread lies to their potential recruits that such and such investments r registered, accrediated and legitimate.

There's those gamblers who will invest knowingly, but such r only a small percentage. The bulk of the ppl who put their money in r those who had been deceived into thinking that it is a proper investment scheme, and most times deceived by those recruiters who actually know the whole story.

Well, the reason why I use the word scam is:
- A pyramid scheme is unsustainable in the long run, which is contary to what such websites claim, of which I quantify as a scam
- Such websites r not a proper registered business, despite what they claim, of which I quantify as a scam

Basically, even should a commercial bank advertises something that is false, I would call it a scam. Why do you think there's tons of legal stuff and QC involved for anything related to finance at all? I mean, I'm involved in the Financial Data area, of which does not even touch the actual investments at all, but just specialized in the data that investors will make use of, and the legal related stuff r already that bad.

There will always be a failure point for every single pyramid type scheme. Actually, there's a very simple and fatal flaw in your theory in regards to the self sustaining thingy. Notice that anything that is pyramid shaped, the further that u get to the bottom, the bigger the area will be? Same thing here too.

So far the 1st cycle that you've mentioned is alright, that's the start. Basically at that time, the income for the scheme is totally fueled by new recruits investing money in it. Thing is, your theory of the 2nd cycle is way way off. Those who've invested in the 1st cycle, and take out 300% of what they put in, where does that 300% of their original investment come from? From new recruits investing of course. Then if they're to just put in 1/3 of what they earned back in again, the system will still be short of 2/3 of what it paid out. Its simple arithmetic here that will tell you that a should there be no new recruits, the amount of money in the system will decrease, because more money is being taken out than being put in. So, without new recruits fueling the system, there is no way it can sustain. This is not some magic system where it can just multiply your money just like that. the money has to come from somewhere.

Hence the danger point of such systems. The longer it goes, the larger the pyramid becomes, and the need for new recruits to invest will grow as well. Should the rate of new recruits coming in not be able to meet the rate of payouts, that's when the entire system will collapse. Basically, this will also be the point where the ppl running the thing will just pack up and run off with the money instead of paying back, and thanks to the complete anonymous way that they operate, fat chances of ever finding them.

Actually there's a big difference here in the 2 that you're describing. Such schemes rely purely on new investments. The lack of new investments or new business when put in the sense of a normal business will be the equiv of the business not growing, not kicking the bucket. There will still be the existing business leads to sustain the company.

Well, here is where our opinions differs. You are of the opinion that part of the income is based upon investment activities (whatever sort), while I'm of the opinion that it is a Ponzi type scheme. Basically you have got a point in saying that there are a lot of underground activities with high returns, but think about it, those activities r usually self funded, and those running the show r not very much interested in sharing the profit with investors.

Furthermore, you're forgetting another thing here, which is the retained earnings for the jokers running the scam itself.

And well, saying that Malaysia isnt cash rich isnt exactly correct either. I wont say that Malaysia's poor, but there's still a sizable amount of liquid assets that can be moved abouts easily. In regards to the target market, basically the main target r those from the lower income group, who r desperate for money, basically the group with a high expense to earning ratio, which results in very little savings. The paycheck comes in, go buy new handphone type. This is also the group that's the most likely to believe in such easy ways to make money.

Thing is, there's a world of differnce between investment and gambling. Such HYIP scams r more towards the gambling category