Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Bump Topic Topic Closed RSS Feed
37 Pages « < 2 3 4 5 6 > » Bottom

Outline · [ Standard ] · Linear+

 LYN Christian Fellowship V13 (Group), ALL about Jesus Christ.

views
     
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 3 2017, 09:13 AM

/k/ Legend
*******
Senior Member
6,240 posts

Joined: Jul 2005
QUOTE(desmond2020 @ Jul 3 2017, 09:09 AM)
This Maldonado is co founder of king Jesus ministry and mega church in Miami?
Not that I don't believe God miracle to heal, just that I don't believe it will come via a fake teacher who called himself 'apostle' and preach a rather extreme version of property gospel.
*
What did he say about prosperity?


TSunknown warrior
post Jul 3 2017, 09:35 AM

/k/ Legend
*******
Senior Member
6,240 posts

Joined: Jul 2005
QUOTE(desmond2020 @ Jul 3 2017, 09:28 AM)
For example he preach you can 'activate' God's word and the power of 'redemption' by honoring God with Your first fruit of income. He said, fasting of the first fruit has the power of multiplication... every time you honour God first.... God will say that his money, his finance is protected because he honor the God first
Which is entirely unbiblical
*
Okay, then.....What is Proverbs 3:9-10?


TSunknown warrior
post Jul 3 2017, 09:46 AM

/k/ Legend
*******
Senior Member
6,240 posts

Joined: Jul 2005
QUOTE(desmond2020 @ Jul 3 2017, 09:42 AM)
I believe you need to read the whole chapter

The emphasis is to fear God and seek wisdom
My son, do not forget my teaching, but let your heart keep my commandments, for length of days and years of life and peace they will add to you. Let not steadfast love and faithfulness forsake you; bind them around your neck; write them on the tablet of your heart. So you will find favor and good success in the sight of God and man. Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths. Be not wise in your own eyes; fear the Lord , and turn away from evil. It will be healing to your flesh and refreshment to your bones. Honor the Lord with your wealth and with the firstfruits of all your produce; then your barns will be filled with plenty, and your vats will be bursting with wine. My son, do not despise the Lord 's discipline or be weary of his reproof, for the Lord reproves him whom he loves, as a father the son in whom he delights. Blessed is the one who finds wisdom, and the one who gets understanding, for the gain from her is better than gain from silver and her profit better than gold. She is more precious than jewels, and nothing you desire can compare with her. Long life is in her right hand; in her left hand are riches and honor. Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace. She is a tree of life to those who lay hold of her; those who hold her fast are called blessed. The Lord by wisdom founded the earth; by understanding he established the heavens; by his knowledge the deeps broke open, and the clouds drop down the dew. My son, do not lose sight of these— keep sound wisdom and discretion, and they will be life for your soul and adornment for your neck. Then you will walk on your way securely, and your foot will not stumble. If you lie down, you will not be afraid; when you lie down, your sleep will be sweet. Do not be afraid of sudden terror or of the ruin of the wicked, when it comes, for the Lord will be your confidence and will keep your foot from being caught. Do not withhold good from those to whom it is due, when it is in your power to do it. Do not say to your neighbor, "Go, and come again, tomorrow I will give it"—when you have it with you. Do not plan evil against your neighbor, who dwells trustingly beside you. Do not contend with a man for no reason, when he has done you no harm. Do not envy a man of violence and do not choose any of his ways, for the devious person is an abomination to the Lord , but the upright are in his confidence. The Lord 's curse is on the house of the wicked, but he blesses the dwelling of the righteous. Toward the scorners he is scornful, but to the humble he gives favor. The wise will inherit honor, but fools get disgrace.
Proverbs 3:1‭-‬35 ESV
http://bible.com/59/pro.3.1-35.ESV
*
Correct we need to fear God and seek wisdom, isn't this proverb a wisdom? Even verse 9-10 of chapter 3? You cannot disregard what it says there.....

For me I don't pick and choose which one, I take all of it. But even then..Verse 9 and 10 states....

that God promise to supply more than enough...to be filled with plenty...that is multiplication, no matter how I want to twist or turn it's definition, that is what it says.

Are we at the liberty to choose which verse apply and which doesn't when it comes to wisdom?

Edit:...I think we can..but does that negate it's truth? hmm.gif

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 3 2017, 09:53 AM
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 3 2017, 09:54 AM

/k/ Legend
*******
Senior Member
6,240 posts

Joined: Jul 2005
QUOTE(desmond2020 @ Jul 3 2017, 09:52 AM)
I believe you get the priority wrong because we should fear God and based on principle that everything we own is from God. So when we do offering we merely give back portion of what God give us.
Jesus teach us to give and hope nothing in return***
And therefore cornerstone is to fear God as if you fear God you wouldn't hope for return from you offering by treating God like you atm machine
Blessing of God is always bountiful but it is not always in form of money
*
Which verse did Jesus say that?

Did He say that when we give towards our fellow neighbors?enemies(human) or towards God?

As far as I can find...most likely you took this from

Luke 6:35 (NIV) - But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.

The irony is....Jesus tells us to expect nothing from a fellow human being (granted) but Jesus never says to expect nothing from God. In fact the irony is that God will reward us great. Can you tell that to God almighty, that you expect nothing from Him when this verse says "Great will be the reward"?

I think this fearing God in tying to expect nothing from God is like worshipping a fearful God which is not how Jesus depict as a Father. The Father that Jesus revealed is one who celebrates with a fatten calf and put shows and ring on our finger as his child.

Don't get angry with me but I think this doctrine of "fearing God and expect nothing from God" is not biblical because the Bible tells otherwise and if you say we should fear God then we need to accept what God says in Proverbs 3:9-10. Else it's a contradiction.

**

I also understand your concern where we need to have a proper reverence for God and not treat God like an ATM machine but if God's own word says He will cause our barns to overflow...who are we to reject God's own saying? You're like saying we need to fear God and yet reject his word of promise as well which is a contradiction, imo.

For me, a proper reverence for God is also to accept his blessings, acknowledging we need it and not reject it because we think we can handle life. God never says to expect nothing from Him, Jesus was careful to point it that we are to expect nothing in return from our enemies...Never from God. We need to be clear and accurate on this.


This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 3 2017, 11:58 AM
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 3 2017, 10:04 AM

/k/ Legend
*******
Senior Member
6,240 posts

Joined: Jul 2005
True, not every reward is about money but to "not expect reward from God" and to "expect nothing" is a form of self righteousness...meaning to say you can carve out life on your own. You can handle life on your own, you don't need God's reward or grace or providence....That to me....is very self righteous. Truth to be told.....we need God in every area of our live, for some people..it's strength, for others health...for some it's finance. I think it's not right to tell others to Not expect anything from God because God is the one who is all sufficient and needs nothing when we are the one who are in need of everything which only God can fulfill.


To propagate, just give and expect nothing from God is like saying, God I don't need you because I can stand on my own in life. That is relying on self strength which as far as I know..God hates.



Matthew 7:11 (NIV)- If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! (This verse tells me God loves to give good gift if you ask, this is far from anything to imply to expect nothing because "doctrines' teach us God doesn't necessarily want to give you, this verse debunks that idea.)

Hebrews 11:6 (NIV) - And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. (This verse tells me Faith MUST believe God rewards those who seeks Him..hence to expect reward IS BIBLICAL. *Note I'm not talking about money but I'm talking about "expecting reward from God", the expectancy is biblical)


Another question to ask...Is it wrong to expect nothing from God? My answer is no, nothing wrong but also...don't criticize others when other people are blessed abundantly as cult or heretic, as it would not be fair to enforce what you believe in on others who needs God deliverance from their place of lack.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 3 2017, 11:47 AM
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 3 2017, 11:45 AM

/k/ Legend
*******
Senior Member
6,240 posts

Joined: Jul 2005
QUOTE(BlueTicket @ Jul 3 2017, 09:48 AM)
Hi,

Can you pls answer questions as below:

1) y God ask Saul to kill soldiers, men, women, children, infants and even animals in Samuel? Soldiers i understand because they are enemies but y other innocent beings?

2) y Abraham's nephew's wife become salt just looking back how the angels destroyed the city? Like what is the purpose of turning her to be salt? The only reason is probably disobedience bcoz angel asked them not to look back but why does it matter? and even it does, why turn to her to salt bcoz who not surprised/shocked and turn their head naturally  bcoz suddenly got very loud explosion?

3) why jesus didnt say anything in old testament? He's god and was there since beginning of the time, right? why he didnt say anything like god to moses and other prophets? basically he seems like not there until new testament come and said he is there. why god didn't mention jesus and he got a son in old testament?

4) read some christianity thread in other thread and some christian themselves said xxx version of bible is better than some yyy version. some even said some verses aren't in yyy or zzz version and tats why xxx version is the best. In that case, why do u still think bible is reliable bcoz didnt this already fit wat muslims say bible has been altered?

so far these are the questions wat i can think of. probably i will ask more when i read more of the bible.

tq
*
1.
God alone has the right to dispense Life and Death, secondly God has an eternal view of things, what He does is always according to his omniscience knowledge.

We may accuse God of being evil to dispense destruction on infants and animal but bear in mind, that is according to our limited knowledge and understanding.
God commanded Saul to destroy everything of the Amalekites because of their long feud and hatred of the Jews and their repeated attempts to destroy God’s people.
Infants may grow up to take revenge and continue the feud. Animals are destroyed possible because of being abomination sacrificed to their gods which from Bible POV are no gods but demons.

2.
Don't know, why Salt.

3. In Genesis, God said "let us.." Us there is plural. Jesus was never revealed in the Old Testament plainly because He was set to be Saviour after time took it's course for Man to try on their own performance.

4. Yes I do think the Bible is reliable regardless of translation. Translation is to help us understand better hence why there are many translations. the authenticity of the Bible is not because of these translations but because there are thousands of copies of the original manuscript known as dead seas scrolls. The translation version translate from these manuscripts. How to know which is accurate and which is not? Look at all the versions, it's readily available online. All of them. Compare them to the hebrew and greek.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 3 2017, 11:52 AM
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 3 2017, 02:13 PM

/k/ Legend
*******
Senior Member
6,240 posts

Joined: Jul 2005
QUOTE(BlueTicket @ Jul 3 2017, 12:11 PM)
1. If tat is justified by saying tat we duno wat God is thinking and he has eternal view of things then dun you think same reason can be used on cult as well? Yes, they bring many destruction to society but we duno what God is thinking and he has eternal view.

And why Jesus teach something so different like love your enemies? last time ppl also mistreated christians and even Jesus himself but why didnt he ask them to kill all of them? this is what i dun understand.

3. If plural, then why is there only one God. Do you mind to explain about Trinity? I dont really understand about this. Based on my understanding, Jesus =/= God but you can say he created the world althought it was God (Jehovah) who created the world. Similarly, it's also ok to say God himself came to world and redeemed human when it's Jesus who came to the world.

New question:

Why did God appoint Saul as king and then regret? Didn't he already know what will happen? For example, he wanted to destroy human and then create rainbow as a convenent that he will not destroy humanity. Then, he shudn't have bring flood if he know?
*
1.
Why must it be based on us...what we know for it to be justified? The matter of Life and Death is not even in our control.
I never said it's justified because we don't know how God thinks, For me, it's justified because God has the sovereign right to give and take away life as creator, plus He has omniscience knowledge.

Think of it this way, there are people in your life that you look up to..perhaps because the person has more knowledge, so you look to this person for trusted advice or professional opinion.

God is greater than all the wisest person alive, CEOs, Kings, Queens, Prime Ministers, President of every country combined in power and knowledge, He knows what He's doing. The Bible puts in a narrative..where even the weakness of God is stronger than human strength. (1 Corinthians 1:25), to help us understand, our conclusion of things can never surpasses God's wisdom.

In the Old Testament, God treats people according to how they performed. Obey and God will Bless, Failure to obey there will be judgement. That is the Old Covenant. I'm sure you heard of the 10 commandments. Here is one thought for you to think. Israel have not even heard what are the 10 commandment and yet they emphatically told God, All that God commanded, they will do it. How can you promise something to God on something you've never even heard yet? Yet after the 10 commandment was given...there is so much death because it proves that Man cannot. The vanity of Man.

In the New Covenant, God reveals his Heart, He wants to treat us based on his Grace, therefore there is a great switch on why the difference. Actually in the Old Testament God was ALREADY showing the treatment of Grace but because Israel boast...ALL that God commanded, they will do it....that caused God to back away. He respect your decision, if that is what man wanted, so by it they will be gauged...performance base.



3. Nobody can understand it, it's a divine mystery, just have to accept what Jesus said in John 10:30 (NIV) - I and the Father are one. Jesus repeatedly said, He is IN the Father and the Father is IN Him (John 14:11). That is unison God, one and the same yet different person.


Actually God never wanted to appoint a human king for Israel. They were the one who insisted and wanted a human king. God has Jesus in mind to come to rule them. Yes God regretted..because there was so much prevalent evil, there was intermarriage between fallen angels and human, Man was corrupted. He wanted to wipe out the entire human race because of the intermix corruption, but still relented and allow Human to live on through Noah because Noah and his family was righteous in the sense they were pure human breed and they had faithful relationship with God.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 3 2017, 02:22 PM
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 3 2017, 07:43 PM

/k/ Legend
*******
Senior Member
6,240 posts

Joined: Jul 2005
QUOTE(desmond2020 @ Jul 3 2017, 05:16 PM)
Well, let me show you something I read which I think is pretty reasonable
quote
Heresy = Bible verses twisted just a couple of degrees off center



If someone desires to give the church a certain percentage of their net or gross income, I honor that as their right and privilege. As for me, I promote that all Christians should give generously and cheerfully.



But first, a full disclosure – I believe that tithing was an Old Covenant rite by which about 23% of goods, usually agricultural products, were given to God for the maintenance of the priests, for the poor. I see no comparable requirement for the church, which is supposed to “honor” its leaders (1 Tim 5:17) and make voluntary pledges to special projects (Paul’s Jerusalem Fund). [1]



I have no argument with tithers so long as they have no argument with me. And I’m not speaking here about legalistic tithing or carnal non-tithing.



But in the past few weeks I have found people preaching what must be held up and labeled perversions of the gospel and of the practice of tithing. I’m not even talking about the protection racketeers like Benny Hinn, Creflo Dollar, and their ilk on TBN, who constantly pound home the gospel of writing a check to their ministry. I’m speaking of heresy – a term I use infrequently and, I hope, with precision. Let’s look at three examples of Tithe-as-Heresy:



Example One: Non-Tithers are Under God’s Curse



Usually people try to dodge around the implications of what they are teaching, but here’s a source that expressed itself frankly:





If you don’t pay tithe, the Bible says you are robbing God and you are under a curse. This curse cannot be removed by your good works or the fact that you are born again. You can only reverse this curse if you start paying tithe. Tithe is the only key to prosperity and God’s blessing. The Bible is very clear about this and there is no way around it. [2]



They add a point that helps the church’s fiscal status, should the pastor turns out to be a wolf:





When Pastors misuse your tithe, do not lose faith in God. Continue to pay your tithe…



This should be a comfort to Creflo Dollar, given the regular claims that he plunders his ministry’s offerings.



The problem is that, if someone is going to apply words such as “curse” to non-tithers, they should give them their full weight. Being under God’s curse does not mean “you won’t prosper as you should”. It means he has condemned you, damned you. (See Matt 25:41; 1 Cor 16:22; Gal 1:8-9; Heb 6:8; Rev 22:3; Rom 9:3 – accursed by God = “cut off from Christ”).



Which leads us to our next permutation.



Example Two: Non-Tithers Inevitably Go to Hell



In an earlier post I mentioned Angélica Zambrano, a young woman from Ecuador who claimed to have visited heaven and hell and brought back information about who ended up where. [3] In this modern-day Dante’s Inferno, Angélica found out that non-tithers all end up in the flames. One young man told her:





“When you return to Earth, tell all those people who don’t want to give their tithes and offerings, not to steal from the Lord, otherwise, they’ll wind up in Hell, and no thief will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. I knew the Holy Word, now I regret it and realize I robbed the Lord.” (Malachi 3:8) “Tell the people when they give to God, give the Lord with true love.” (2 Cor 9:7) This man kept pleading, “Lord forgive me”, and the Lord replied, “It is too late, there is no opportunity for you.” [4]



So, salvation is not through faith in Christ, but through Christ plus tithing.



Example Three: Tithing is the Gospel



This is the most horrific I have heard, but the month isn’t over yet and something worse might show up. “Apostle” Guillermo Maldonado of Miami [5] teaches that the “original sin” in the garden was the failure of Adam and Eve to tithe. Let me quote parts of what he says, to show that I am not imagining this:



“The original sin of Eden was stealing the tithe…The tree of the knowledge of good and evil represents or symbolizes the tithe…And God said to him, Don’t touch what is mine…Everything else you can eat, you can enjoy…In the Garden is where man became indebted to God…The tithe is what we owe to God, it’s the debt when Adam ate, a debt began, so when you give the tithe, you aren’t doing anything by paying a debt.” (He goes on to say that God won’t bless people if they only tithe, they have to give more than that to even begin to be financially blessed).



This is about as far from the gospel as we could go – we would have to rewrite Paul’s teaching to “even as by one man’s failure to tithe, we all sinned, so by Apostle Maldonado coming to tell us to tithe, we will live.”



The word “heresy” should not be applied to tithers or non-tithers, not if they follow the gospel. As a professor explained it to us many years ago, denominational distinctives are what distinguish Christian from Christian; heresy is what distinguishes Christian from not-Christian. The three examples above are not-Christian, not-gospel, not-True God. Most heretics you run across quote the Bible plenty. But when they twist its meaning just a few degrees of dead center, voilà, you have a whole new religion.



Again, if you believe that giving a certain percentage to God is right for you, then do so, gladly. And if not, don’t – that is your right. But let us never let anyone take a doctrine like tithing as a means of financial extortion; spiritual abuse; or sacrilege against God.
*
I'm quite familiar with such writings and critics and I've studied quite a bit on tithing. Tithing was never just an old covenant rites. It is something that even Jesus sanctions in the New Testament (because Him being God), He is the one who instituted it. As for the matter of the curse, if you study the Bible...even in the New Testament, God calls money as Unrighteous Mammon. DO you know why?
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 3 2017, 08:31 PM

/k/ Legend
*******
Senior Member
6,240 posts

Joined: Jul 2005
QUOTE(desmond2020 @ Jul 3 2017, 07:51 PM)
I see

then we have nothing to discuss further if you can ignore what the like Maldonado has done to gospel.
*
If what He does is wrong, God will deal with Him, If He is fake, the people who was healed through his ministry will come out and say something on the fake healing.

I'm not concern about Him, I'm only concern on what was said on God's word by the critics and by Him, is it in alignment? I did ask you a question because I rather you understand the Bible rather than what critic says.

You're not discussion on the core problem, right now you're just concern on what the critic says about feeding wolves pastor in sheep clothing but the core problem is not really addressed, what was said about tithing is not entire accurate, tithing is sanctioned by Jesus in the New Testament, so it's not just an old testament rite, it's in the entire Bible.

It's up to you if you rather listen to critics rather than narrowing down what the Bible says...It's a simple question after all, even you can answer.
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 4 2017, 11:14 AM

/k/ Legend
*******
Senior Member
6,240 posts

Joined: Jul 2005
QUOTE(thomasthai @ Jul 4 2017, 10:53 AM)
I will just leave this here, for christians to have a balanced view on these things.



10 videos in total.

I know UW will be unhappy with this, but I'm pleading to all christians to discern and not be deceived by these charlatans.
*
I find that people who went to the Rally will disagree with your views.

I'm unhappy because of propaganda like this because it causes Christians to draw back and live and practise "safe christianity" where they do not believe in God for miracles anymore because fear of being disappointed and hurt when the problem has been solely on the stuff written on propagation which thrive on doubt..much judgment and criticism fling at people causing the focus from believing in God for miracles in believing in people to doubt God. This is why I'm unhappy, you're right.

People hardly read the bible for themselves to understand it's truth anymore but they readily believe in articles of judgement similar like yours.

Focus has been diverted from Living Christ(meaning we can have manifested grace in reality) to which pastor is sheep which person is a fake, etc. Focus is on people, no wonder Faith is stifled.

I'm sad that you do not understand this.

The kind of Faith that the people of the Bible lived through has a lot of disappointment with God but the Faith to believe in was quite supernatural and demands to move beyond our comfort zone of "safe" believe.

So what happens is that Christianity has dwindled to just believing in Salvation so people just hold on in suffering until they die.


For me it's basically what Satan wants because A no victory but mundane Christian life helps his cause. But when a christian life is filled the power of the divine Lord God Almighty, those break bondage, God delivering them from held circumstances this type causes damages to Satan's kingdom in contrast.

I won't delete your video because I want Christians to know also what is wrong with this sort of videos.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 4 2017, 10:38 PM
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 4 2017, 12:54 PM

/k/ Legend
*******
Senior Member
6,240 posts

Joined: Jul 2005
QUOTE(thomasthai @ Jul 4 2017, 12:25 PM)
I'm telling you that faith is energised by the holy spirit through the bible. If your faith is genuine, you will never feel suffering. I'm energised by the HS everyday, who draws me to find out more about the word of God. I couldnt have done it on my own even if I want to.

Bible says walk by faith, not by sight. Dont believe because you saw the 'miracles', believe because bible is the truth.

What kind of victory do you want? As far as I know, we already have the biggest victory ever, conquering death in christ!

I don't have a propaganda, I genuinely believe those are false prophets.

Bless you.
*
If you agree to walk by faith and not by sight then I feel it's more appropriate to reason cessation is not the truth. God still works his miracles today. It takes Faith to believe in that.

My bible says to believe in the miracles because it points to the work of God, Jesus in particular. I know you have your interpretation of work meaning spreading the Gospel but I beg to differ. He also work to prove his credential via his miracles. So that is inclusive of his work, you don't need to be asked to convince HE is God if the context was to just "spread the gospel".

It doesn't take Faith to hold the view all the signs and wonders has ceased. It takes a lot more to believe in signs and wonder of God therefore the meaning we live by Faith and not by sight.

Nobody is disputing on victory in Salvation. Sorry bro I just cannot agree the theoretical christian life where we talk so much about theology and head knowledge about God but dare not believe for the divine or supernatural.

That to me is equally a defeatist doctrine.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 5 2017, 08:26 AM
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 4 2017, 12:56 PM

/k/ Legend
*******
Senior Member
6,240 posts

Joined: Jul 2005
QUOTE(desmond2020 @ Jul 4 2017, 12:27 PM)
snip.
*
Sorry but I cannot deny what God did in my life.

Miracles did happen, healing did happen.

Sorry.



This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 4 2017, 10:32 PM
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 4 2017, 10:56 PM

/k/ Legend
*******
Senior Member
6,240 posts

Joined: Jul 2005
QUOTE(desmond2020 @ Jul 4 2017, 07:32 PM)
"Tithing," are you familiar with the concept of tithing, you know, "Give 10% to the church," you know, that kind of thing? Tithing, basically, is never, ever advocated in the New Testament; it is never taught in the New Testament—never! 

*
Few Scripture verse. But to begin Tithing did not exist only in the Mosaic Law, it existed 400 years before the Law hence it's never a Law to begin with, it's what God instituted else why do you think Cain and Able offered their produce?

Anyway...

Hebrews 7:4-10

4 Just think how great he was: Even the patriarch Abraham gave him a tenth of the plunder! 5 Now the law requires the descendants of Levi who become priests to collect a tenth from the people—that is, from their fellow Israelites—even though they also are descended from Abraham. 6 This man, however, did not trace his descent from Levi, yet he collected a tenth from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. 7 And without doubt the lesser is blessed by the greater. 8 In the one case, the tenth is collected by people who die; but in the other case, by him who is declared to be living. 9 One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham, 10 because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor.



Verse 8 says there, by him who is declared to be living..If you think about Melchizedek has passed on. Why does the Bible says "Living" then?

I submit to you, The context of this verse is talking about Jesus who = in the Order of Melchizedek forever. The tithe is to declare that Christ Live. If tithing is not important and matters not to God, it shouldn't even be mentioned in the New Testament, what more in the book of Hebrews.

Here is another.


Matthew 23:23 (NIV) - "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

Jesus emphasize both are important. To practice what is more important and also to tithe.

Too many times, people who oppose tithing will quote, it's only for the Israelite and will quote tithing is not money but Farm produces, etc. Today not all of us are farmers, hence we tithe with what we earned with our work, that is the same equivalent.



However Christians too often ignore Galatians 3:29 (NIV) - If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Being An Abraham Seed means you are a spiritual Israelite hence tithing matters to you as well, you can be blessed according to Proverbs 3:9-10 and also Malachi as God tells us to Test Him.


I think the point is...if people don't want to accept tithing, they will say all kind thing even saying you won't find it in the New Testament ..but why is it, I can see it, it's mention in the NT by Jesus?

I'll tell you why, for some people, money has in a way a hold on their life, can even go to the extend to say it's idolatry because they won't part their money, hoard it like there's no tomorrow..hence they like to hear all the "justification" not to tithe. but for me personally because I don't want money to be my God, one of the reason I tithe is to prove I can let go that 10% to God and honor his word and not just "talk" all my belonging belongs to God. Some people like to talk so much but can't even let go 5%. (you and I know who le....the other "S" dude ) That to me is hypocrisy.

You may have your points, I will respect your Baptist Doctrine (correct me if I'm wrong) but I just find it hard to agree tithing is not required.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 5 2017, 08:22 AM
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 4 2017, 11:10 PM

/k/ Legend
*******
Senior Member
6,240 posts

Joined: Jul 2005
QUOTE(desmond2020 @ Jul 4 2017, 03:24 PM)
The Christian view of wealth should be derived from the Scriptures. There are many times in the Old Testament that God gave riches to His people. Solomon was promised riches and became the richest of all the kings of the earth (1 Kings 3:11-13; 2 Chronicles 9:22); David said in 1 Chronicles 29:12: “Wealth and honor come from you; you are the ruler of all things.” Abraham (Genesis 17-20), Jacob (Genesis 30-31), Joseph (Genesis 41), King Jehoshaphat (2 Chronicles 17:5), and many others were blessed by God with wealth. However, they were a chosen people with earthly promises and rewards. They were given a land and all the riches it held.

In the New Testament, there is a different standard. The church was never given a land or the promise of riches. Ephesians 1:3 tells us, “Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.” Christ spoke in Matthew 13:22 concerning the seed of God's Word falling among thorns and “the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful” (NKJV). This is the first reference to earthly riches in the New Testament. Clearly, this is not a positive image.

In Mark 10:23, " Jesus looked around and said to His disciples, ‘How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God!’” It was not impossible—for all things are possible with God—but it would be “hard.” In Luke 16:13, Jesus spoke about “mammon” (the Aramaic word for “riches”): “No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.” Again, the imagery here is of wealth as a negative influence on spirituality and one that can keep us from God.

God speaks of the true riches He brings to us today in Romans 2:4: “Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?” These are the riches which bring eternal life. Again, this is brought out in Romans 9:23: “And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?” (NKJV). Also, Ephesians 1:7: “In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace." Referring to God giving mercy, Paul praises God in Romans 11:33: “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!” The emphasis of the New Testament is God's riches in us: “That you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints” (Ephesians1:18b). God actually wants to show off His riches in us in heaven: “And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus” (Ephesians 2:6-7).

The riches that God wants for us: “I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being” (Ephesians 3:16). The greatest verse for New Testament believers concerning riches is Philippians 4:19: “And my God will meet all your needs according to his glorious riches in Christ Jesus.” This statement was written by Paul because the Philippians had sent sacrificial gifts to take care of Paul's needs.

First Timothy 6:17 gives a warning to the rich: “Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment.” James 5:1-3 gives us another warning about riches that were wrongly gained: “Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you. Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days.” The last time that riches are mentioned in the Bible is in Revelation 18:17, speaking of the great destruction of Babylon: “In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!”

To summarize, Israel was given earthly promises and rewards as God's chosen people on earth. He gave many illustrations and types and truths through them. Many people desire to take their blessings, but not their curses. However, in the progression of revelation, God has revealed through Jesus Christ a more excellent ministry: “But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises” (Hebrews 8:6).

God does not condemn anyone for having riches. Riches come to people from many sources, but He gives grave warnings to those who seek after them more than they seek after God and trust in them more than in God. His greatest desire is for us to set our hearts on things above and not on things on this earth. This may sound very high and unobtainable, but Paul wrote, “I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me” (Philippians 4:13 NKJV). The secret is knowing Christ as Savior and allowing the Holy Spirit to conform our minds and heart to His (Romans 12:1-2).
*
There's contradiction here. If wealth is a negative influence on spirituality and one that can keep us from God, then why did God bless Abraham or Solomon with such vast riches?



This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 4 2017, 11:28 PM
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 5 2017, 08:27 AM

/k/ Legend
*******
Senior Member
6,240 posts

Joined: Jul 2005
One thing about John MacArthur, He doesn't believe in healing. What God is doing today defy his doctrine.

I rather see God as how define by his word in the Bible not define by doctrine written by Man.

The problem with Christianity today, some of us are too dependant on who is the teacher (Man) rather than to look to the Holy Spirit the original teacher of the Bible.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 5 2017, 08:36 AM
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 5 2017, 10:48 AM

/k/ Legend
*******
Senior Member
6,240 posts

Joined: Jul 2005
QUOTE(desmond2020 @ Jul 5 2017, 10:19 AM)
First I am not Baptist lel

Second malchizedek and tith? Here is a write up from Stevan j Cole on malchizedek
Most of you would probably admit that you’re not highly motivated to learn about Melchizedek. You’ve got marriage problems, problems with your kids, financial problems, personal problems, and other practical needs. Why in the world would you be interested in learning about some obscure figure from many centuries ago named Melchizedek? “For crying out loud, Steve, it’s Mother’s Day! Give us a message that relates to mothers!” I believe that learning about Melchizedek will help you to be a better mother, father, child, or whatever role you are in. My aim is to convince you that you do need to know about this man.

To understand this, we need to put the chapter in its context. The Jewish Christians to whom this letter was addressed were tempted to abandon their Christian faith and return to Judaism under the threat of persecution. Some of them had lost their property and had suffered public reproach on account of their faith (10:32-34). They were thinking, “Hey, we didn’t have it so bad as Jews! The Jewish religion was a good system. It spelled out how we should live. The rituals were familiar and satisfying. It was the faith of our forefathers for many centuries. Maybe we should just go back to the way things were.”

To understand the pull of the past, we need to realize that religious traditions die hard! For over 20 years, Marla and I have read and prayed along with The Global Prayer Digest (published by the U.S. Center for World Mission). One thing that has repeatedly struck me as I’ve read it is how strongly entrenched religious traditions are. It will mention a people group where, many centuries ago, Islam took root and the culture is totally Islamic. For hundreds of years, generations have lived and died without questioning the religious traditions. These false religious views dominate their whole way of life. When missionaries try to penetrate these cultures with the gospel, they meet with strong resistance, because to accept the gospel would mean abandoning centuries of religious tradition.

The author of Hebrews was trying to convince people that a religious system of sacrifices, rituals, and rules that had been in place for over 1,400 years had now been replaced by a better way. He focuses on the supremacy of Jesus Christ, who is the fulfillment of all that was written by Moses and the Jewish prophets. He introduces a theme that is only treated in the Book of Hebrews, that Jesus Christ is our high priest.

We will only appreciate our need for a high priest to the degree that we realize how holy and unapproachable God is and how sinful and defiled we are. When Isaiah saw the Lord, sitting on His throne, lofty and exalted, surrounded by the seraphim who called out, “Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts,” the prophet was undone (Isa. 6:1-5). It devastated him because immediately he became aware of how utterly sinful he was, in contrast to God in His awesome holiness.

Israel in the wilderness had seen Moses go up on the mountain into the cloud, with lightning and thunder and a loud trumpet sound, and they were terrified. If the people got too close to the mountain, God warned that He would break forth upon them with a deadly plague (Exod. 19:10-25). The Jews knew that they could not saunter into the Holy of Holies to chat with God! Only the high priest could enter there, and only once a year, with blood. The Jewish people knew how desperately they needed a high priest if they were to approach God.

The author of Hebrews is making the point that Jesus is our high priest. But He is not just the fulfillment of the Levitical priesthood. He is something more, a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek. To view Him on a par with the Levitical priests would be to make a spiritually fatal mistake. That entire old system was designed to point ahead to Jesus Christ, who superceded and fulfilled it. To go back to the old way would be to abandon God’s only way of entrance into His holy presence. It would be to turn from the only One who can save us from our sins and go back to an inferior system. So the author here is saying,

You need to know about Melchizedek because he is a type of the Lord Jesus Christ, and you desperately need to know about Christ.

The author is picking up where he left off in 5:10, before his exhortation from 5:11-6:20. He wanted to discuss the significance of Melchizedek, but he could not do so because these people had become dull of hearing. He wants them to understand Melchizedek so that they can gain a deeper understanding of Jesus Christ. But Christ does not reveal Himself to those who are spiritually lazy or apathetic. Have you ever considered why Jesus did not do the Transfiguration in front of the multitudes? In fact, He didn’t even do it in front of the Twelve. He only took with Him Peter, James, and John to witness this astounding scene!

But to the multitudes, Jesus concealed His glory and spoke in parables, because they were spiritually dull (see Matt. 13:12-15). He only reveals His glory to those with whom He is intimate, and He is only intimate with those whose hearts are humbled before Him. And so as we approach these truths about Melchizedek as a type of Christ, we must make sure that our hearts are right before God.

Also, we must give some effort and attention to the matter of seeking to know Him. The only command in our text is, “observe how great this man [Melchizedek] was” (7:4). The Greek word means to gaze at or discern through careful observation. We get the word “theater” from it. We are to observe Melchizedek because he is a type of Jesus Christ, and we desire to see the beauty and glory of Jesus, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge (Col. 2:3). To see Him as He is, is a transforming experience (1 John 3:2). The solution to every problem that you face is to know Jesus Christ more accurately and intimately.

The flow of thought runs like this: In 7:1-3, the author identifies Melchizedek as both king and priest, without genealogy or end of days. In these ways, he is “made like the Son of God,” and remains a priest perpetually. The Son of God is not made like him, but he is made like the Son of God, presented in Scripture in such a way that he points to the truth about the Son of God.

Then, in 7:4-7, the author shows that Melchizedek is greater than Abraham, the father of the Jews and of all believers, in that Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek and he blessed Abraham. In 7:8-10, the author shows that Melchizedek was also greater than the Levitical priests (and the system they represented), in two ways: First, the Levitical priests were mortal, but Melchizedek “lives on” (7:8). Second, Levi, who received tithes, actually paid tithes to Melchizedek through Abraham, his forefather, when he paid tithes to Melchizedek (7:9-10). We can sum up these points under four headings that show how Melchizedek was a type of Jesus Christ:

1. Melchizedek is a type of Christ in the dignity of his person.

Everything we know about Melchizedek comes fromGenesis 14:18-20, Psalm 110:4, and Hebrews 7. The first text is historical, the second is prophetic, and the third is theological. Melchizedek was the king of Salem (probably Jerusalem [Ps. 76:2]) and priest of the Most High God. Abraham had gone after four kings that had taken his nephew Lot and his family captive when they raided Sodom, where Lot was living. Abraham defeated these kings, recovered all of the goods, and brought back Lot and his family. As Abraham returned from this battle, Melchizedek came out to meet him. He blessed Abraham and Abraham gave Melchizedek a tenth of his spoils.

Out of what that short account says and does not say, the author of Hebrews draws some amazing parallels between Melchizedek and Christ. It is interesting that he omits what seems to be an obvious parallel, that Melchizedek met Abraham with bread and wine! You would think, “That’s clearly a type of Christ giving bread and wine to the disciples!” In the original story, Melchizedek was bringing refreshment to Abraham and his weary men. But for some reason, the author of Hebrews passes over the easy parallel and focuses on some things that most of us would have missed.

The first thing to note is that Melchizedek was both a king and a priest in the same person (7:1), which was not allowed in Israel. You may be a king or you may be a priest, but you could not be both at once. John Calvin (Calvin’s Commentaries [Baker], Hebrews, p. 155) points out that it is remarkable that Melchizedek lived with Sodom on one side and the Canaanites on the other, and yet he was a righteous king and priest. This shows that God can raise up a godly witness for Himself when and where He pleases. Like Melchizedek, Jesus is both king and priest in one person.

The author makes the point (7:2) that Melchizedek “was first of all, by the translation of his name, king of righteousness, and then also king of Salem, which is king of peace.” In Hebrew, Melchi means “my king,” and zedek means “righteousness.” Salem is related toshalom, which means peace. The order is significant: righteousness comes before peace. A king cannot have true peace in his kingdom unless both he and his kingdom are righteous. Sin brings discord and strife. Righteousness is the foundation for peace.

Jesus is called “Jesus Christ the righteous” (1 John 2:1). He not only imputes and imparts righteousness to others; He is righteous in His very being. He never sinned, nor could any guilt be found in Him. He is the Lamb of God, unblemished and spotless (1 Pet. 1:19). He is “holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners” (Heb. 7:26). He did “no violence, nor was there any deceit in His mouth” (Isa. 53:9).

When He comes again to reign, “in righteousness” He will wage war against the wicked (Rev. 19:11). “With righteousness He will judge the poor…. And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked. Also righteousness will be the belt about His loins, and faithfulness the belt about His waist” (Isa. 11:4-5). “There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness from then on and forevermore” (Isa. 9:7).

Jesus is also the king of peace (Eph. 2:14-18). He brings peace between sinners and God, and peace among all that live under His lordship. Paul wrote, “Therefore, having been justified [“declared righteous”] by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Rom. 5:1). God did not lay aside His righteousness to make peace with sinners. Rather, He laid our penalty on His righteous substitute, “so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus” (Rom. 3:26).

If you know Jesus Christ as your King of righteousness and peace, you will be growing in righteous behavior and you will be pursuing peace with others (Rom. 14:17, 19). I am not talking aboutperfection, but rather, direction. You will be growing in conformity to your King.

2. Melchizedek is a type of Christ in the derivation and duration of his priesthood.

Being a priest in Israel was totally dependent on your family lineage. All priests came from the tribe of Levi. No one else need apply. If you could not establish your family heritage, you were excluded from the priesthood (Neh. 7:61-64). But Melchizedek was “without father, without mother, without genealogy” (Heb. 7:3). Yet he was “priest of the Most High God” (7:1).

A few have interpreted Melchizedek’s lack of genealogy and the next phrase, that he had “neither beginning of days nor end of life,” to mean that he was superhuman, either an angel or a preincarnate appearance of Jesus Christ. But the vast majority of commentators reject that interpretation and agree that Melchizedek was simply a great man who lived at the same time as Abraham.

The author of Hebrews is building an argument from the strange silence of Genesis. That book emphasizes genealogies and the number of years that the patriarchs lived. In the midst of this emphasis, seemingly out of nowhere, comes this man Melchizedek. His family lineage is never mentioned, nor does Genesis say anything about the length of his life or his death. The author is saying that the Holy Spirit deliberately omitted these facts from a book that emphasizes such, in order to make Melchizedek an appropriate type of Jesus Christ. That’s why he says that Melchizedek was “made like the Son of God” (7:3), rather than “Jesus was made like Melchizedek.” It is not that Melchizedek never died, but rather in what Genesis omits, that he “remains a priest perpetually.”

Jesus’ human lineage is given in Scripture, but He did not come from the priestly tribe of Levi, but from Judah (7:14). To be our high priest forever, Jesus had to be of a different priestly order, namely, that of Melchizedek. As the Son of God (that title is used deliberately in 7:3 to focus on Jesus’ deity; see also, 1:8), Jesus has no human lineage, and thus fulfills the type of Melchizedek as reported in Genesis. Also, the Levitical priests died and had to be replaced, but Jesus lives on in His high priesthood (7:23-24). So both in the derivation and in the duration of his priesthood, Melchizedek is a type of Jesus Christ.

3. Melchizedek is a type of Christ in the dimension of his priesthood.

Melchizedek was greater than both Abraham and Levi, since he received tithes from both of these great men. Abraham spontaneously recognized that this man represented God Most High, and so he gave him a tenth of his choicest spoils as an act of worship and gratitude toward God for granting him victory over the four kings. Levi, who was Abraham’s great-grandson, gave tithes to Melchizedek through Abraham’s tithes, in that he was still in Abraham’s loins when this took place. In Hebrew thought, an ancestor contained in him all of his descendants. Thus Paul argues that when Adam sinned, the entire human race sinned (Rom. 5:12). So here, the author says, “so to speak, through Abraham even Levi, who received tithes, paid tithes.”

Some (e.g., A. W. Pink) use this to argue that the principle of the tithe, giving God ten percent, transcends the Law of Moses. But Abraham only did this on one recorded occasion (as did Jacob, Gen. 28:22). The New Testament epistles never command believers to tithe, even when addressed to Gentile congregations that would have needed such instruction. Rather, the New Testament principle is that God owns everything that we are and have, and that we are to give as He has prospered us (1 Cor. 16:2;2 Cor. 8 & 9). We are stewards of His resources, and we will give an account of how we have used them to further His kingdom (Matt. 6:19-33; 25:14-30; Luke 16:1-13; 1 Tim. 6:17-19).

But the point of the typology between Melchizedek and the Son of God is that since Melchizedek, in receiving tithes from Abraham and Levi, was greater than these great men, Jesus is greater still. As our High Priest, He is worthy not just of a tithe, but of all that we are and have, because He bought us with His blood. No gifts that we give can compare with His matchless worth!

Thus Melchizedek is a type of Christ in the dignity of his person; in the derivation and duration of his priesthood; and, in the dimension of his priesthood. Finally,

4. Melchizedek is a type of Christ in the dispensing of his priesthood.

Even though Abraham was God’s chosen man and God promised to bless the nations through him, Melchizedek “blessed the one who had the promises. But without any dispute the lesser is blessed by the greater” (7:6-7). Scripture uses the term “blessing” in different ways. In one sense, we bless God (Ps. 103:1), which does not imply that we are greater than He! We bless others by praying for them or rendering kind words or service (Luke 6:28; 1 Pet. 3:9), which is mutual. But here the sense is that of the priestly (Num. 6:22-27) or fatherly (Gen. 27:27; 48:15) blessing, which was not mutual. The one imparting the blessing is conveying God’s blessing through His authority onto the one being blessed. Since Melchizedek pronounced God’s blessing on Abraham, he is greater than this great man who had God’s promises!

But Melchizedek is only a type of the one who is greater still, the Lord Jesus Christ. Herveus (a 12thcentury writer, cited by Philip Hughes, A Commentary on the Epistle to the Hebrews [Eerdmans], p. 251) applies the truth here to Christ by saying,

If Melchizedek, who was a sign and shadow, is preferred to Abraham and to all the levitical priests, how much more Christ, who is the truth and the substance! … If a type of Christ is greater than he who has the promises, how much more so is Christ himself!

If Melchizedek could bless Abraham, how much more is the Son of God ready and able to bless those who draw near to God through Him! If we want God’s blessings, we should seek them in Christ, because “as many as are the promises of God, in Him they are yes” (2 Cor. 1:20). What do you need from God? Eternal life? Yes! Forgiveness of sins? Yes! Inner peace? Yes! Hope? Yes! Joy in the midst of trials? Yes! Grace to endure? Yes! Victory over sin? Yes! Healing from past wounds? Yes! Jesus is the perfect high priest who dispenses God’s blessings to those who have His promises. Draw near to Him!

Conclusion

Two concluding applications: First, what you believe about Jesus Christ makes a huge difference! The Hebrews were in danger of falling away from the faith because they did not grasp how great Melchizedek is and therefore they did not grasp how much greater the One whom Melchizedek prefigured is.

As I have pointed out many times, the most important question in the world is Jesus’ question to the Twelve, “Who do you say that I am?” (See my sermons, “The Most Important Question in the World,” from Mark 8:27-33; and, “The Crucial Question,” from Luke 9:18-22.) That question has an objectively true answer. Your eternal destiny hinges on your response to that question. If you correctly say from your heart by faith, “Jesus Christ is the Son of God who gave Himself on the cross as the only sacrifice for my sins,” you have eternal life! If you diminish Jesus to a lesser role, such as, “He is a great moral example or teacher,” then you do not have the high priest that you need when you stand before God for judgment. Any teaching that diminishes the supremacy of Jesus Christ is false teaching!

Second, seek God continually and fervently in His Word to give you a greater knowledge of the beauty and glory of Jesus Christ. Paul’s lifelong quest as a believer was to “count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord” (Phil. 3:8). Samuel Ridout wrote,

As we see the glories of Christ contrasted with the shadows of the law and everything that was connected with an earthly priesthood, well might we say that if faith had apprehended the reality of what Christ was, they would gladly take not only the spoiling of their goods, but also the spoiling of all their earthly hopes, things that they had clung to as so dear before. Once let Christ be apprehended, once let the beauty of His character as our Priest and the blessedness of the place into which He had introduced us be laid hold of by the soul, and the things of earth which would hold us fast, a carnal religion and all else, will lose their hold, even as the leaves drop off the trees in autumn.

So why do you need to know about Melchizedek? Because he is one gateway that God has provided to tell you about Christ. If you want to endure hardship and even persecution, if you want God’s blessing on your family and in your personal life, if you want to resist temptation and live a righteous life, seek God for a clearer vision of the glory of Christ. When we are enthralled with Him, “the things of earth will grow strangely dim, in the light of His glory and grace” (Helen Lemmel, “Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus”).
*
Do you want the Bible to record every occasion of tithing? to quote it's a one off thing is rather a flimsy argument. Even the Bible says if it were to record every miracles...all the books in this world would not be enough.

TSunknown warrior
post Jul 5 2017, 11:05 AM

/k/ Legend
*******
Senior Member
6,240 posts

Joined: Jul 2005
QUOTE(desmond2020 @ Jul 5 2017, 11:03 AM)
John Macarthur don't believe about healing? Strong word here
To be fair, let read what he said
In our ongoing study of the Charismatic movement today, I wanna jump right in to a subject that I know I can't completely cover, but I want you to learn to think biblically about this because I'm very concerned about it. Today, we hear an awful lot of talk about miracles, somebody says, "I had a financial need and a miracle happened. The mailman came and in the mail was a check for just the amount of money I needed. It was a miracle." Or you hear someone say, "I went to the mall and there was a parking place right by the entrance. It was a miracle." Or a mother might sense something wrong in an adjoining room and investigate just in time to stop her little toddler from putting a paper clip into an electrical outlet, and say, "It's a miracle." Or maybe you were thinking and praying for somebody and just seemingly at the time you were doing that, the phone rang and it was the very person you were thinking about, and they were right there to be encouraged and you say, "That was a miracle." Well, we call those things miracles, but they're not miracles. A miracle is a supernatural event which has no human explanation. More than that, a miracle is a supernatural event which suspends natural law. In other words, natural law stops and is suspended while God acts, moves back out and then the natural course continues. When you find a place to park at the mall or when you catch your little toddler just at the right moment, or when you get a check for what you needed, or when a friend calls at precisely the right moment in time, those would be acts of providence, those would be acts whereby God is simply orchestrating natural events, not suspending the natural, but controlling the natural so that it does what He wants it to do.

A miracle then is an extraordinary event wrought by God that cannot be explained by any natural means. That would be the technical definition. It might sound something like this. A miracle is an event in nature so extraordinary in itself and so coinciding with the prophecy or command of a religious teacher or leader as fully to warrant the conviction on the part of those who witness it, that God has wrought it with the design of certifying that this teacher or leader has been commissioned by him. Now, that takes us to another dimension, and I wanted to read that. That's from Augustus Strong written way back in 1907, and what he is saying there is that anytime a miracle occurs, it is associated with the certification of a teacher or a leader commissioned by God.

Theologians prior of course to the Charismatic movement, the Pentecostal movement and this century, were united in the understanding that miracles did not happen randomly, they did not happen through history in a willy-nilly sort of way. God did not do them capriciously or whimsically. There wasn't a continual flow of miracles at all times and places through church history, but rather, miracles, that is God stepping in to the natural world, suspending natural law, doing something that had no natural explanation, pulling back out again and letting natural law then run its course, did that only in certification of especially commissioned teacher.

In fact, miracles in Scripture, all the way from Exodus through Deuteronomy to Nehemiah through the Psalms, Jeremiah, Daniel, into the New Testament, Matthew, Mark, John, Acts, Romans, 2 Corinthians, Thessalonians and Hebrews, miracles are called signs and wonders. They are signs, and what are signs for? A sign is to point to something, and what were they signs of? They were signs authenticating a divinely commissioned teacher. When God supernaturally, superhumanly suspended natural law and acted in human history, He did so as a sign to point to a teacher who was speaking for Him.

I've collected through the years a very large file of supposed miracles. They range all the way from 1977's newspaper article about Maria Rubio of Lake Arthur, New Mexico who was frying tortillas in her kitchen. She noticed that one of them seemed to have the likeness of a face etched in the burn marks. She concluded that it was Jesus and even built a crude shrine to the tortilla. Thousands of people visited the shrine of the Jesus of the holy tortilla and concluded it was indeed a miracle. "I do not why this has happened to me," Mrs. Rubio said, "but God has come into my life through this tortilla." From the Chicago Tribune. In 1980, in Deptford, New Jersey, Bud Ward, the town's fire department photographer was driving with his wife when he accidentally took a wrong turn. Noticing flames in an abandoned chicken coop behind the Naples Pizzeria, he pulled into the parking lot and began taking pictures. When the slides came back from Kmart, Ward's nine year old daughter noticed what seemed to be an image of Christ in one of the photographs. Word of this discovery spread and soon people from all over New Jersey were talking about the pizza Jesus of Deptford Township. Several people knelt and prayed under the image projected from the slide and others asked that the image be projected onto their chests. Hundreds believed it was a true miracle. Again, according to the GloucesterTimes.

Such apparitions are seen as miracles. In August of 1986, in Postoria, Ohio, the image of Jesus seemed to appear every night in the shadows and rust marks on the side of a soybean oil storage tank. Hawkers sold thousands of, "I saw the vision," t-shirts and coffee mugs to those who came to see the miracle. Nearly a year later, Arlene Gardner of Estill Springs, Tennessee, noticed that when her neighbors turned on their porch light, the image of a face appeared in the glow reflected off her freezer. She believed it was the face of Jesus, although several observers said it looked more like Willy Nelson. Arlene and her husband were so convinced it was a true miracle they quit the church when the pastor expressed skepticism.

Well, evidently, skepticism is a rare commodity these days. People's hunger for the mysterious and the astonishing and phenomena is a little unsurpassed in the history of the church. It's pretty popular stuff in the secular world and it's found its way into the church. Eager to witness miracles, many people seem willing to believe that almost anything unusual is a genuine heavenly wonder. The problem with that is it poses a severe danger for the church because it plays right into the hands of Satan, doesn't it? False wonders and false signs, false miracles, extremely believable ones, the Bible tells us will be the primary tool of Satan in the end times. Jesus said, "False Christ and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders so as to mislead if possible even the elect." Then He added as if knowing that many would ignore the warning, "Behold, I have told you in advance," Matthew 24:24-25.

Surely, in the light of the warning of Jesus and the warnings of the apostle Paul in the New Testament, we should have a healthy skepticism on the part of these supposed miracles. Now, I want you to understand. I am not by nature a skeptic. I am not a naturalist and a humanist and an anti-super naturalist. I believe in miracles, and I believe that every miracle recorded in the Bible literally happened exactly as the Bible described it. I believe, for example, that Moses and the Israelites actually walked through the parted Red Sea and didn't get their feet wet or muddy. I believe that Elijah raised a widow's young son from the dead and that fire called down from Heaven was actually heavenly fire and consumed water. I believe with absolute conviction that Elijah made an axe head float, an iron axe head. I believe that all the healings, miracles, signs and wonders attributed to Jesus and the four Gospels happened exactly and precisely as they are recorded there, and I believe the apostles literally performed all the miracles which the New Testament described. That's not all. I believe God can still do miracles. I believe all things are possible with God, as Matthew 19:26 says. "His power has not diminished in the least since the days of the early church."

But even though I believe all of that, and I believe that if God chooses to do something miraculous, He can do it. I am convinced that most of the miracle signs and wonders, if not all, being claimed today in the Charismatic movement, have nothing in common with what we know about Biblical miracles. They do not fit the Biblical criteria. And I am persuaded by both Scripture and history that nothing like the New Testament gift of miracles, noted in 1 Corinthians chapter 12 is operating today. The Holy Spirit has not given any modern day Christians miraculous gifts comparable to those He gave the apostles.

Now, in spite of that, many Charismatics are making quite remarkable claims. Oral Roberts, for example, speaking at the Charismatic Bible Ministry Conference in 1987 said, and I quote, "I can't tell you about all the dead people I've raised. I've had to stop a sermon, go back and raise a dead person." No less in authority than Dr. C. Peter Wagner, professor of church growth at Fuller Seminary, School of World Mission, believes such things do happen, and I quote him, "I too, now believe that dead people are literally being raised in the world today. As soon as I say that some ask if I believe it is normative. I doubt it would be normative in any local situation, but it probably is normative in terms of the universal body of Christ. Even though it is an extremely uncommon event, I would not be surprised if it were happening several times a year," end quote. John Wimber of the Vineyard lists raising the dead as one of the basic elements of any healing ministry.

Now, with the supposed large number of people being raised from the dead, you would imagine that somebody could manage to come up with one who could give testimony to the validity. But not one modern occurrence of raising the dead can be verified. Say, what about Oral Roberts' claim that he's raised many people? Well, he was challenged to produce the names and addresses of the people he raised, and he balked. Later, he recalled only one incident more than 20 years before when he had supposedly raised a dead child in front of 10,000 witnesses, "During healing service," he recalled, "a mother in the audience jumped up and shouted, 'My baby's dead.'" Roberts said he prayed over the child and, "It jerked, it jerked in my hand." Roberts conceded that neither that child nor others he said he had brought to life had been pronounced clinically dead. "I understand," he hedged, "there's a difference in a person dying and not breathing and a person being clinically dead." Well, what are we supposed to make out that confusion? It's certainly a far cry from Jesus raising Lazarus who had been four days in the grave. And if this Dr. Wagner supposes dead people are literally being raised several times a year, wouldn't it be reasonable to expect that he would bring one along so we could meet him or her. The truth is those who claim miracles today are not able to substantiate their claims. And like the miracles in the New Testament which were usually done with large crowds of unbelievers watching who would be skeptical, modern miracles typically happen either privately or in some religious meeting where there are a lot of people who are in a wild kind of frenzy expecting a miracle where it's a lot easier to fabricate one in the imagination.

And the types of miracles that are being claimed today are absolutely nothing like New Testament miracles, absolutely nothing like them. In fact, the types of miracles today could be distinctly seen as different than New Testament miracles. Jesus and the apostles instantly and completely healed people born blind, a paralytic, a man with a withered arm. All obvious and disputable miracles, even Jesus' enemies didn't challenge the reality of His miracles that He had the people there to verify them. He raised the dead, of course, as we well know. They never did a miracle that was slow, they never did a miracle that took time, they never did a miracle that was less than permanent. By contrast, most modern miracles are partial, gradual, temporary, sometimes reversed, and almost impossible to verify.

And the only instant miracles today seem to be those that deal with psycho-somatic diseases. People with visible disabilities are rarely if ever helped at all by modern faith healers. I recently watched a televangelist interview a man he had supposedly healed of lameness. The man said he was free from his wheelchair for the first time in several years, however, the man was walking with crutches and had heavy braces on his legs. That's not a miracle at all like any in the Scripture. No modern miracle worker claims the kind of unequivocal success seen in the ministry of Christ and His apostles.

Now, there are some in the Charismatic movement who try to defend the supposed miracles which are not verifiable by saying that Jesus Christ is same yesterday, today and forever, so it's the same Jesus today. The Holy Spirit is still with us today and therefore, with Him, we have the age of miracles. David Du Plessiswho is sort of the patriarch of the movement, who has been called Mr. Pentecost, believed, he's dead now, that the age of miracles never ended and that we're still in the age of miracles, and that he said that the miracles and events described in the book of Acts should be normative throughout the church's history. And it is that view that most Pentecostals and Charismatics hold. That whatever the Holy Spirit did in the past, He is still doing now; that miracles go on and on as long as there is the Holy Spirit. They say the Holy Spirit never changed. They say the early church changed. It became doctrinal, it became formal, it became ritualistic, and so the Holy Spirit pulled back His power and now after nearly 2,000 years, He's released it again. The thing that always amazes me is if the Holy Spirit were going to release His power, why would He release it to authenticate the people who teach bad theology? If He wanted to authenticate anybody with miracles, you could be sure it would be those who were the truest and the purest and the most profound and Biblical and the most skilled and dedicated teachers of the Word of God who were teaching the truth.

Many Pentecostals and Charismatics talk about the restoration of the New Testament Holy Spirit power through their movement. They say they're doing again what the apostles did in the first century. Is that true? If so, why do modern revelations, visions, tongues, healings and miracles differ so dramatically from those done by the apostles? And why is it that they're associated with people who do not understand properly the truth of God? And if miracles and signs and wonders are so vital, then why is it that for nearly 2,000 years the Holy Spirit didn't do any? You mean there weren't even a few people around who would have been worthy of such? Should Christians today expect miracles? Is Oral Roberts right when he says, "Everyone of you out there should expect your miracle today"? Are we supposed to be able to do miracles, heal people, raise the dead?

Well, in answer to all of this, we need to take a look at Scripture and I wanna give you just a fast look, overview at this matter of miracles that I think will set your thinking in the right frame. Most Biblical miracles happened in one of three relatively brief periods of Biblical history. You need to note this. Most Biblical miracles happened in three relatively brief periods of Bible history, the days of Moses and Joshua, during the ministries of Elijah and Elisha and thirdly, in the time of Christ and the apostles. None of those periods lasted much more than 100 years. Each of them, each of the three experienced a proliferation of miracles unheard of at other times in God's redemptive history. But even during those three times, miracles were not just normal, every day occurrences that happened to anybody and everybody. The miracles that did happen in the time of Moses and Joshua involved Moses and Joshua. The miracles that happened in the time of Elijah and Elisha happened around the ministries of Elijah and Elisha. And the miracles that happened to Christ and the apostles and through them, happened through their ministries. There weren't just miracles happening all over everywhere to all kinds of people.

And aside from those three intervals, the only other miracles recorded in Scripture are very, very isolated events. It is true in the days of Isaiah, the Lord miraculously defeated Sennacherib army, then healed Hezakiah and turned the sun's shadow back, 2 Kings 19:20. It is true in the days of Daniel, God miraculously preserved Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego in the furnace, Daniel 3. But those are very uncommon and very unusual. It is true that God did miraculously preserve Jonah in the belly of a great fish. But for the most part, those are very isolated, and miracles that those didn't happen to God's people as a course of life.

Now, God of course, at any time can inject Himself into the human stream supernaturally and do a miracle. But He chose to limit Himself primarily to three periods of history, and very rarely will you ever find a miracle in the times in between. The rest of the time, God just works through providence, doesn't need a miracle, He can work through providence. The reason He did a miracle is because a miracle can only be attributed to God. It can only be explained supernaturally and there were times when that was crucial.

Let me give you some points. Three characteristics of the miracles in Scripture will help you understand this. One, miracles introduced new eras of revelation. Miracles introduced new eras of revelation. All three of those periods of miracles were times when God gave His written revelation. Moses and Joshua, the time of the giving of the law. Elijah and Elisha introduced the prophetic office, the prophetic age, and all of the books of prophecy, major prophets and minor prophets. The New Testament obviously, Christ did miracles, the apostles did miracles. That introduced the era of the New Testament revelation. So, whenever God was going to pour out His Word, He wanted to certify certain prophets and teachers of His Word, to authenticate them.

Moses was given the power to do certain miracles that people might know he spoke as God's spokesman. There was no other way to explain what God used him to do other than God was doing it and therefore, this was God's man and when he spoke, he spoke for God. And the same was true in Joshua's case when he wrote his book.

You come to Elijah and Elisha and the miracles that attended their ministry as they were the prophets of God, and they were introducing a very long era of prophetic literature. As God revealed through the prophets of which really they were sort of the introducers. And even if those rare miracles that occurred in other eras involve people who were used by God to write Scripture. Hezakiah's healing involved Isaiah. The three men in the fiery furnace involved Daniel. Those two were what we call major prophets who spoke and wrote for God. Moses performed many miracles in an attempt to convince Pharaoh to let the people of Israel go, to convince Pharaoh that this was not some normal man. This was not some natural man, but this was God's man who spoke for God.

Miracles seem to accompany the Israelites on the their journey out of Egypt and miracles came in their journey through the wilderness to remind the people of God that God was their God and that Moses was God's spokesman. How else would they know who to listen to? They certainly didn't want to listen to Aaron or anybody else. And even when God gave His law to Moses on the mount, Moses' encounter with God was accompanied by signs so dramatic, fire, smoke, a trumpet, a thundering voice, that even Moses himself knew it was the voice of God and Hebrews 12 says he was fearful. And thus began the first period of revelation. And Moses recorded the truth of the Pentateuch, the five books, and Joshua wrote the book that bears his name.

Other books were added intermittently after the time of Moses and Joshua, Samuel probably wrote Judges and 1 and 2 Samuel. David wrote the Psalms, Solomon penned most of the wisdom literature, but those books were not accompanied by the great outpouring of miracles that had distinguished the days Moses and Joshua. They were kind of a continuation in some ways of that revelatory era.

Second major cluster of miraculous events accompanied a new era of Biblical revelation, the age of the Old Testament prophets. Following Solomon's reign, a nation of Israel divided into the northern kingdom Israel, a southern king of Judah. The northern kingdom quickly deteriorated because of idolatry and hit a low point under King Ahab. You remember his wife Jezebel. At that time God raised up two spokesmen, Elijah and Elisha. The prophetic office in their lifetime was marked by dramatic miracles to certify them as the spokesmen for God and to call back the people to God. The prophets that followed them were the continuation of that era.

Then when that era closed out and the Old Testament was done, there was a 400 year period of silence in which no prophet spoke for God and no miracle is recorded to have occurred. Then came the New Testament and the first miracle was a virgin birth, and then the miracles began to flow out of the life of Christ, and then began to flow out of His apostles. Why? Because it was a new era of writing the revelation of God, the New Testament. Always, the miracles were associated with a certification of those who were giving us God's revelation.

Second point, and that is the point we just led into. Miracles authenticated the messengers of Revelation. They only happened in three eras and they authenticated the messengers of Revelation. Elijah raised the widow's dead son and what was the widow's reply? Verse 24 of 1 Kings 17, she said, "Now I know that you are a man of God and that the Word of the Lord in your mouth is truth." That's a very important verse. That's the whole purpose, so that anybody listening to Elijah would know this man is a man of God and in his mouth is the Word of the Lord and it is true.

You come into the New Testament of John 10, Jesus having a confrontation with the Jewish religious leaders. They challenged Him. "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you're the Christ, tell us plainly." Jesus said, "I told you and you don't believe. The works that I do in my Father's Name, these bear witness of Me." He was saying, "The miraculous works that I do authenticate Me and My message as being from God."

In his Pentecost sermon, Peter told the crowd that Jesus was a man attested to them by God with miracles, wonders and signs. And the same kind of power belonged to the apostles. You'll remember that on Paul's first missionary journey, he and Barnabas were ministering in Aconium and it says they were speaking boldly with reliance on the Lord who was bearing witness to the word of His grace, granting that signs and wonders be done by their hands. The love of that is always the intention of the miracle. God does not need to do miracles for everybody to accomplish His will. He does not need to do miracles for every Christian every day to prove His love. He does not need to do miracles every day to make people believe He exists. He only authenticates the Word and when the authenticated Word is revealed, there is no need any longer to authenticate a preacher. You can find out whether he speaks for God by comparing him with this.

And God can still control everything without ever doing a miracle through providence. It's foolish to assume that everybody should be able to do a miracle, that we can go to a seminar in four days and learn how to do miracles. It's equally foolish to assume that God's gonna do miracles for you every day. People who keep saying they saw this miracle and that miracle have got caught up in the fact that everything is a miracle and their definition of miracles lacks greatly Biblical parameters.

The apostles performed miracles, signs and wonders in Acts 5. Why? To call attention to the fact that they were supernatural servants of the living God who spoke the truth. In Acts 15, it says the whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the miraculous signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. These things that mark an apostle, signs and wonders and miracles, Paul said to the Corinthians, were done among you. They mark an apostle.

Moses, Joshua introduced an era of revelation. Elijah, Elisha introduced an era of revelation. Jesus and the apostles introduced an era of revelation and with all the spokesmen and no written Word, with all the spokesmen, God had to authenticate the right spokesman and so He gave them the power to do supernatural things in order that people might know this is no human, mortal teacher. This is a man of God who speaks the truth.

Thirdly, and tied right in with the others. Miracles are designed to call attention to the revelation. Miracles are designed to call attention to the revelation. God did the miracle so the people would listen to the Word and see it as His truth. The miracle didn't stand alone, that's the point. God doesn't do miracles for miracles' sake. The purpose of the miracle was the effect of the miracle. For example, the miracles Moses did in Egypt were meant to enlighten two groups, the Israelites and the Egyptians. In Exodus 7, we read about Moses' first miracles and it was then that the Israelites started to believe in the power of their God. Pharaoh was a hard case. He didn't believe until the tenth miracle, the death angel. Then he finally let them go. But the purpose of the miracle was not just to stand on its own, but the purpose of the miracle was to get people to understand that God had something to say.

The miracles of Elijah and Elisha were effective in convincing both believers and unbelievers that what these men spoke was the Word of God and graphic illustration of that can be seen in 1 Kings 18 where Elijah defeated 400 prophets of Baal before a large crowd of Israelites and the Scripture says, "When all the people saw it, they fell on their faces, they said, 'The Lord, He is God. The Lord, He is God.'" They believed.

In the New Testament, miracles and signs were again used to confirm believers and convince unbelievers. John said the miracles of Jesus were done so that, "You might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and believing you might have life in His Name." And the same was true with the apostolic miracles.

Only three eras always to authenticate those who spoke the revelation of God and always with the purpose of pointing to the revelation so that it is the revelation that is the important thing. Beloved, I submit to you that if you have this book in your hand, you have what is the end product of God's miraculous intervention. This is the purpose for which He did the miracles. You posses this, you don't need the miracles. You have what God intended them to produce, and that is why Jesus said it as simply as it could be said, "If they do not believe Moses and the prophets," that is Scripture, "they will not believe though someone be raised from the dead." You must remember the people of Israel who saw the miracles of Moses, the whole generation died in the wilderness in what? Unbelief. You must remember that the people who heard the prophets speak for God for the most part refuse to believe. One whole kingdom apostatized, the northern kingdom, and in the southern, only a remnant. All those who saw the miracles of Jesus did not believe. Only a small group, and when it came down to it in the book of Acts, there were 120 of them dedicated enough to believing the Lord that they were waiting for the coming of the Holy Spirit.

Miracles have never produced wholesale belief. They can't. They are intended to point to the truth and it is the truth which produces faith. Of course, as the Spirit energizes it. Now the question comes, are miracles necessary today? When the Old and New Testament were completed, God's revelation was finished. Through many signs and wonders, He has authenticated the voracity of this book. Anybody who reads it can see that it's true.

Does God have to keep doing miracles? Is there a need for ongoing miracles to substantiate the Bible? Should everybody with faith claim a miracle? Does God do miracles on demand? Are the phenomena that are occurring today hail to signs and wonders and healings really necessary and authentic? The answer to all those questions is no. Nothing in Scripture indicates that the miracles of the apostles' age were meant to be continuous. You keep reading in the book of Acts and you'll get to the part in the book of Acts where you finally say to yourself, "I haven't read a miracle in a long time," and you'll finish the whole book and never see another one. They had begun to cease even during the book of Acts.

Charismatic believe that the spectacular, miraculous gifts were given for the edification of believers. Does God's Word support that? No. They were not given for the edification for believers. They were not give to edify Christians. They are a sign for those who do not believe, for those who need to see that this is God's Word. Whether you're talking about tongues or healings or miracles, they served as signs to authenticate an era in which God was giving new revelation and people needed to listen. B.B. Warfield, that great Presbyterian professor, a past generation, writing in 1898, said, "Miracles do not appear on the pages vagrantly, here, there and elsewhere indifferently without a signable reason. They belong to revelation periods and appear only when God is speaking to His people through accredited messengers, declaring His gracious purpose. Their abundant display in the apostolic church is the mark of the richness of the apostolic age in revelation." You realize, don't you, that between 36 and 95, all 27 books of the New Testament were written and so there was a proliferation of authentication because of the vast volume of literature being revealed in a brief period of time. Warfield goes on, "When this revelation period closed, the period miracle working had past by also as a mere matter of course. God the Holy Spirit has made it His subsequent work not to introduce new and unneeded revelations into the world, but to diffuse this one complete revelation through the world and to bring mankind into the saving knowledge of it."

Abraham Kuiper, B.B. Warfield actually wrote in 1918, Kuiper wrote this in 1898. Abraham Kuiper, the Dutch theologian writes, "It has not been God's way to communicate to each and every man a separate store of divine knowledge of his own to meet his separate needs, but He rather has spread a common board for all and invites all to come and partake of the richness of the great feast." I wanna stop in that quote to say that is such a very important rebuke to the contemporary Charismatic movement which assumes that God talks to everybody individually, has special revelation for everybody, separate information for everybody to meet everybody's individual need. That is not the case. Abraham Kuiper is right when he says, "He has spread a common board for all and invites all to come and partake of the richness of the great feast. He has given to the world one organically complete revelation, adapted to all, sufficient for all, provided for all, and from this one completed revelation, He requires each to draw His whole spiritual sustenance. Therefore, it is that the miraculous working which is but the sign of God's revealing power, cannot be expected to continue and in point of fact, does not continue after the revelation of which it is the accompaniment has been completed." Great statement, great statement.

In Acts 7, as Stephen preached his famous sermon, he talked about Moses who performed wondrous signs in the land of Egypt and in the Red Sea and in the wilderness and, "received living oracles to pass on to you," Stephen said. Know how God's Word draws the parallel between Moses' signs and the living oracles, the direct revelation from God which He was to pass on. Hebrews 2:3-4 confirms that the validation of the New Testament writers was purposed to cause folks to see them as the agents of God's revelation. "How shall we escape if we neglect so great salvation after it was at first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard God bearing witness with them by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit." He was authenticating the apostles, the writers of Scripture.

Does God promise miracles for everybody? No, He never has; it's not their purpose. You hear Charismatics say, "God has a special miracle for you today." No, He doesn't. "You better be seeking your private miracle. If you're not getting it it's because you don't believe strongly enough." Not true. By the way, Jesus didn't do any private miracles. They were all public, and they were as I said, to authenticate the one who spoke for God.

There's so much more that can be said about this, and there'll be much more in the book, but I just wanna wrap this up in the last five minutes or so. If you're going to say that God is doing miracles today, then, and be Biblically consistent, you're going to have to say that God is also what? Giving what? Revelation. And if God is giving revelation, it will be coming through the people who are what? Doing the miracles. And I will say this for the Charismatics. They're at least logically consistent in that sense. They've got the whole package. God is giving revelation, He's still giving it. The people who are getting it have miracle power, in their view. And what is the next logical step? To call them apostles, and that's what they're doing.

We're now having a pretty common movement in the Charismatic movement, labeling people as apostles, Earl Polk, quite a prominent Charismatic, teaches that certain individuals have been called to be apostles. Jack Dear, former professor at Dallas Seminary, the chief theologian of John Wimber's movement, isn't certain the apostolic ministry is functioning today, but he told a workshop in Sydney, he is convinced that apostolic power is coming. Listen to this, "And the new apostolic age will be greater than the first."

We're gonna get the whole package back, new apostles doing new signs and wonders, receiving new revelation to produce a new Bible? You wanna look at this very carefully, beloved. This almost looks like a plot to deceive the whole church, doesn't it? The apostolic office isn't for today. The church was founded on the apostles. Ephesians 2:20, they were the foundation. You don't put the foundation on the 20thstory. The apostles were all eye witnesses to the resurrection, eye witnesses to the risen Christ. They were chosen personally by Jesus Christ. They were authenticated by miraculous signs. They had absolute authority, and they were given an eternal, unique place of honor. Revelation 21:14 says that, "Heaven, the city of the new Jerusalem, has a wall with 12 foundation stones and on them are the 12 names of the 12 apostles of the Lamb." There were only 12. You can argue who the 12thwas. Some say Mathias, some say Paul, Judas being excluded. You might wanna say Mathias, and Paul was an apostle in due time, kind of an addendum. But the point is, there are only 12 of those honored places. Each of them will rule over one of the 12 tribes of Israel in the kingdom. There's not room for more than 12, folks. They're a special breed, they had no successors. The age of apostles is over 'cause the age of authentication is over because the age of revelation is over.

You say, "Oh, MacArthur, you have a weak view of God." No, I don't. I have a strong view of God. I think He's consistent with Himself and I think He's true to His revelation. Jerry Horner, associate professor of Biblical literature, Oral Roberts said, "Who in the world wants a God that's lost all His zip?" Well, has God lost His zip? Has He done nothing significant in 2,000 years? That's hardly the case. He's got plenty of zip. In fact, He's able to do exceeding abundantly beyond all you can ask or think, according to the power that works in us. He had a special purpose for the eras of revelation. He has a different purpose now, just as powerful, just as wonderful. Don't buy into the deception that there's something beyond the Scripture because that's what this deception is saying. That there's somebody getting a revelation, that there's somebody with apostolic authority, that miracles are supposed to be happening all over the place. It's not true. It's not consistent with Scripture.

Father, we thank You that we can look at Your Word tonight and in just this brief time discern its truth again. Help us to have that discernment, and Lord, help us to believe that You don't have to do a miracle to show Yourself. Providence in many ways is a greater miracle than a miracle. It would be easier to do something supernatural than it is to orchestrate all of the infinite contingencies of life and make them work Your purpose, but You do it every moment of every day. Thank You for Your Word which needs no update for the authenticated messengers gave us the once for all delivered to the saints faith on which we rest. We ask, Lord, that You will keep us true to Your truth. Don't let us get led astray, for Jesus' sake, Amen.
*
QUOTE
Does God promise miracles for everybody? No, He never has; it's not their purpose. You hear Charismatics say, "God has a special miracle for you today." No, He doesn't. "You better be seeking your private miracle. If you're not getting it it's because you don't believe strongly enough." Not true. By the way, Jesus didn't do any private miracles. They were all public, and they were as I said, to authenticate the one who spoke for God.


Bible never specified miracles is for specific who...He's wrong in this. He's trying put circumstance as the truth over the Bible when He should put up Bible truth first over circumstance. Just because there are genuines Christians who never got healed does not mean God was not willing. The Problem is the unrealistic expectation that the person MUST be healed immediately...I think that is the problem for concluding as such.

If Jesus did say my miracle is not for Mr. Steven......then I would agree MacArthur will have his point but Bible never say such thing.


Quote me which verse in the Bible that support his statement

"Does God promise miracles for everybody? No, He never has" ...................I will surrender to you. notworthy.gif

I dare challenge his statement by saying this.


Anyone who came to Jesus was all Healed, so who says God promise of miracles is not for everybody? How does He qualify that statement? The HUGE irony is that MacArthur puts the clause, the reason people didn't receive is because they didn't believe strong enough when the very fact his teaching is the one who caused it to be nullified.

He should encourage believers to continue believing and praying...That is biblical rather than shut off the Faith.

How will he answer Persistent Widow in Luke 18?

Luke 18:7-8(NIV) - And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? 8I tell you, He will promptly carry out justice on their behalf. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on earth?”…

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 5 2017, 11:53 AM
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 5 2017, 11:59 AM

/k/ Legend
*******
Senior Member
6,240 posts

Joined: Jul 2005
Sorry brother Desmond.....

What I see that has happened to other believers as well as to my own life, I cannot deny God.

If God's miracle is not for everyone, then why should I and others get it? because we're extra special?

God never say His miracles is for this specific person in the Bible hence to put forth such a statement..."God's miracle is not for everyone" = kinda of "playing safe" theology so that people don't get hurt emotionally.

That is really.....irritate me to the core. Si beh tahan. Cowardice theology.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 5 2017, 12:00 PM
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 5 2017, 12:57 PM

/k/ Legend
*******
Senior Member
6,240 posts

Joined: Jul 2005
QUOTE(desmond2020 @ Jul 5 2017, 12:52 PM)
The claim that Jesus heal everyone that come to him
well I read the gospel, four of them, a few time to check. But sadly I can't agree to statement
I do believe God heal. Always he is healer
But not through a human agency unless God need to authenticate such person for revelation.
Remember faith is direct between God and us via Jesus as the high priest. So should be healing
God has plan. Plan that mere mortals won't understand. Heal he will but only according to his plan
Remember what Jesus pray the night before he was crucified
*
Don't angry with me but I believe this is what stops you from receiving, you can't agree means you don't believe God's miracle is for anyone who approach Him.

I did ask you, what is so special about me? you mean God heals me because that is according to his will?

Well what did I do to be in his will? I'll tell you nothing. I wasn't really a shining exemplary Christian obeying everything God commanded.

All I did was to be convinced God is more than willing to Heal as according to how Jesus healed to all that came to Him.

My faith was small...small as mustard seed but I believe as how the Bible asked me.

That is all.
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 5 2017, 01:02 PM

/k/ Legend
*******
Senior Member
6,240 posts

Joined: Jul 2005
QUOTE(nachtsider @ Jul 5 2017, 10:47 AM)
Can Christianity accept (as in not condemn) a supernatural creature that is not God and not necessarily in league with God but is nevertheless benevolent and helpful towards mankind?
*
In Christianity, it is recorded God is sovereign in the sense, there are no other gods. This was proclaimed by God himself.

You will not be happy with our answer.

Because we do not believe in supernatural deity as you call demi-gods, etc. We believe these are all the works of the Evil One (Satan Spiritual Forces) with the sole purpose to deceive Mankind that the Christian God is not the truth and not the only one, even though their purpose is to be benevolent and helpful to mankind.

Sorry if this upsets you.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 5 2017, 01:03 PM

37 Pages « < 2 3 4 5 6 > » Top
Topic ClosedOptions
 

Change to:
| Lo-Fi Version
0.1152sec    0.41    7 queries    GZIP Disabled
Time is now: 6th December 2025 - 06:05 PM