Jan 27 2018, 08:44 AM
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QUOTE(Mr. WongSF @ Jan 27 2018, 12:49 AM)
Referring to your highlighted in RED section.
You gotta be joking if you don't think the LAW applies to us!
I'll just take 2 commandments :
"Thou shalt not kill."
"Thou shalt not commit adultery."
Tell me, if it wasn't right to murder in the time of Moses, is it perfectly okay to kill people now?
But it's okay to do it, because the Blood covers everything & God only sees Jesus when we sin?
Or you can run around behind your wife's back(not accusing you mate, just giving an e.g.) with other women, because the Blood covers everything anyway?
You would obviously answer no, right, that Christians shouldn't murder & fornicate?
So doesn't that mean you are being obedient?! And are you not still keeping the law?
So what has changed? The only difference is that we no longer sacrifice animals under this dispensation.
We still have to obey God's commandments.
Your understanding of commandment is severely limited to "LOVE" only. Love is the only commandment in your books. That is incorrect!
Disclaimer: Of course it's natural that even if you keep the LAW, but don't believe in the Gospel, it's pointless. It would be in vain. That's why only God can Save.
He still offered to save us in spite of mankind's terrible sinfulness. We don't deserve it! That, to me is the definition of unmerited favour. He doesn't have to, but he wants to!
Nothing to do with OSAS, which is our point of contention.
UW, i'm very curious as to how you witness to people.
If you do not present and make them aware of the LAW in the 1st place, how do you expect them to accept GRACE?
You're only presenting a one sided Gospel.
They don't see carrying their cross, or dying to self daily, or "be Holy for i'm Holy"after coming to Christ, because of Once Saved, Always Saved.
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?" - Romans 6:1
"What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law, but under grace? By no means!" - Romans 6:15 "Or God forbid"
If i'm not mistaken, even you yourself quoted the above verse. And they don't appear as obedience to you?
You simply don't deal with the scriptures as you continue to not address my citation of Rom 8: and Gal 1:6 which appear to totally contradict your view.
And then you go all over the place & quote me Romans 11.
Respectfully, when I offer a counterpoint to your view but you don't address it, how does repeating what you already wrote suffice as an answer?
1. Is a person who meets the criteria specified in Rom 8:30 sealed?
2. Were the believers in Gal 1:6 whom Paul referred to as called, still sealed despite them turning away from the true gospel to follow other gospels?
These two verses alone, undermine your view that a believer is sealed until redemption.
If you still think they are, then please explain.
The difference in our interpretation of Rom 8 is that you think the warning passages in Rom 8 are written to unbelievers so that Paul is writing to a mixed audience -
those who are saved and sealed; and those who are not saved and sealed.
The problem is no where that I'm aware in the NT does Paul address his comments to non-Christians.
His letters were specifically addressed to the saints in the churches; never unbelievers.
In spite of that, even if I adopted your perspective your interpretation of, let's say 8:13, would still not make sense for it would read according to your view:
"For if you [unbelievers] live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you [believers] put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. - Rom 8:13
Sounds stupid doesn't it?
First off, it is impossible for unbelievers to not live according to the flesh, therefore it would be ridiculous for Paul to write such a statement.
He would never employ the word "if." Unbelievers can ONLY live according to the flesh - so it is not even a matter of IF.
If Paul were referencing unbelievers, he would have instead used the word "since" but such is not the case so your interpretation clearly does not fit the text.
One has to account for all of the scriptures in forming one's view. So I'll ask again - Is a person who meets the criteria specified in Rom 8:30 sealed? Yes or no?
If you answer yes then you would have to agree that being called means an unbreakable seal.
That's why I led you to Gal 1:6 where despite being called, the Galatian believers turned to follow other gospels.
I have been attempting to point out the fundamental flaw in your view but you either don't understand it or you overlook it. Correct me if I'm wrong but you believe:
1. Christians are sealed until redemption.
2. Christians sin and stumble.
The logical conclusion of your premises is that no matter how little or how much Christians sin, they are still saved because they are sealed.
If you claim that there is a limit to sinning if one is to inherit salvation then you have to admit that a Christian is not sealed until redemption, as too much sinning disqualifies one from eternal life.
Your only other option is to claim that such people were never saved in the first place.
In other words, they was never predestined, called and justified and subsequently won't be glorified according to Rom 8:30. To be called is to be sealed.
However as I pointed out earlier Gal 1:6 states that people can be "called" but still fail to persevere and sin by turning to another gospel according to Paul.
Your view contradicts with Paul's own testimony that demonstrates that a person who is called and sealed can still abandon the gospel to follow another gospel.
So have to somehow reconcile this with your view.
Errmmm, yesterday i said Rom 8 is very, very interesting. Here's why :
Paul states "IF" you are led by the Spirit which makes this a conditional statement meaning the possibility of believers not being led by the Spirit.
So therefore while it is certainly true that when one is regenerated, one is indwelt by the Spirit, it does not automatically entail that one will "follow" or be "led by the Spirit".
Paul says clearly before we even get to verse 12 and 13 that if the Spirit of God dwells in you you are not in the flesh and what he is going to say in verse 12 and 13 does not apply to a person indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
“So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.”
Paul’s warning is a sombre one as these verses describe the potential death of born-again believers, referred to as the BROTHERS/BRETHREN.
If this death were not a real possibility, the warning would be nonsensical
We also know that this warning pertains to spiritual death – not physical death – because everyone dies physically irrespective of how we live our lives.
Moreover, one must have spiritual life in order to be in danger of spiritual death.
You cannot threaten a spiritually dead person with spiritual death! Such a person is already dead.
Therefore, it must be concluded that these are regenerate brethren who are being warned of dying.
Also note that this verse is conditional – not unconditional – as indicated by the word “if.” IF believers walk according to the flesh = they will die.
IF believers walk according to the Spirit = they will live. Simple as that.
Verse 13 CANNOT BE SAID to apply to unbelievers because only believers have the choice as to whether to walk according to the Spirit or according to the flesh.
Unregenerate persons have no such choice; are incapable of walking according to the Spirit and can only walk according to the flesh - there is no "if" involved.
Thus, it stands to reason that Paul’s warning of spiritual death; i.e. eternal separation from God is exclusively directed to Christians who live in rebellion and knowingly engage in habitual sin.
Finally, Rom 8:25-39 actually states the opposite of what you believe.
It is true that nothing can separate us from the love of Christ. But what does "nothing" refer to?
The verse itself defines nothing as "tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword."
Nothing does not include ongoing unrepentant habitual sin which does separate us from the love of Christ.
To include sin in this verse is to read it into the verse something which it does not say!
We have assurance as long as our lives are generally characterized by living according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh.
"So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." - Rom 8:12-13
Next, you quoted Romans 11:20 & 11:22. And your point is?
The verses are just warning us Gentiles not to become arrogant, because we were grafted in, & because we are not Jews. It also warns of unbelief. So, yeah.
No countering points to obedience. It's talking about something else.
Likewise, i also quoted to you before that we are just grafted in & we can be "cut off" & "thrown into the fire".
"I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned." - John 15:5-6
See the word fruit there again? You think Christians who are not obedient to follow the promptings of the HS will bear any fruit?
Obedience + Belief in Christ amounts to something
Also, i never said the blood of Christ is not able to wash away our sins!
See? Putting words into my mouth again! Accusing me of works based salvation
The meaning of the above verse is very, very clear to me.
As is also :
- 1st Corinthians 6:9-11
Take it however you will.
I am fully aware of the context of Hebrews 10:26-29 and its setting. It was talking to the new Messianic Jews about temple sacrifices, return to Judaism, etc.
The verses above, if taken in isolation, will scare the daylights out of people.
I apologize
if i had erred in using these as an example, given that there are other more suitable verses in the Bible to prove my point.
Excerpt :
But do consider how many of today's believers behave in a way they know is sinful, and yet they go ahead and do what they feel like doing, anyway?
That's because they mistakenly think Divine grace covers intentional sin.
That is a huge misconception! Divine grace has made wonderful provision for unintentional sin. But there is no provision for intentional sin. The Bible tells us so.
Deliberate, premeditated sin is willful disobedience and rebellion against ELOHIM. It results in severe punishment or even loss of our salvation.
This verse is loaded with meaning in the Greek language. The root Greek word for “willfully” is ekousios which implies a willing choice without force. The Greek word for “sinning” is a present participle which has the idea of “continually sinning.” The Greek word for “knowledge” is an unusual Greek word implying not just “knowledge” but “full-knowledge.” The Greek word for “no longer” has a sense of “running out of time.”
If we put it all together this is the meaning of these two verses. If after a person has received full-knowledge about Jesus, and he or she still willingly, without force, continues sinning (no fear of God) – there is no sacrifice that can save him or her! Heb 10:26
-end-
I brought out the controversial Hebrews 10:26-29 verses simply because of :
1) Hebrews is written in the NT
2) It was written to Christian "believers"
3) It has a dual application. It applied to those back in the day, as well as serves as a warning to present age believers.
So decide for yourselves : http://cgi.org/once-saved-always-saved/
This is not hard to understand! If you don't Love the Father, obviously you love the world more. How do you show your love to the Father? You must be obedient!You follow & do what he says. There must be ACTION on our part.
Just by saying "I believe in Jesus. I believe he is God in the flesh. I believe he died for my sins.", but not follow what he says, means by default you prefer the world.
A Christian who says he believes in Jesus, but prefers to live like the world (drunkardness, pre-marital sex, watch porn, get high on weed, etc) LOVES the world more than JESUS.
"Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, - 1 John 2:4
Til now you still don't understand that LAW & GRACE go hand in hand. You only ever really understand the concept of Salvation is simple (which is true).
I've read a lot of your devotionals & it gives me the impression that you have a phobia against the LAW.
You're so terrified of the LAW that you think people who obey the LAW are self-righteous & thus are works-based, which is not true!
As Christians we show our faith by our works. (this one i know you agree)
It is a manifestation of our love for Him.
Keeping God’s commandments and doing right are merely the result of His Holy Spirit dwelling in the heart. (your definition of commandments differs from mine)
These are the fruits of the Holy Spirit.
We do these things not to be saved, but because we are saved. (this one i'm sure you agree too)
As long as we love the Lord with all of our heart, we are going to be obedient to Him and cling to Him.
He will not let go of us unless we cast Him away through our continued sin and indifference and willful disobedience (OSAS will do that!).
Since you quoted John, I shall do the same :
1st John 3:7-8 directly answers your question due to the fact that we still maintain our own volition to choose whether to live a sanctified life or to practice a sinful life.
"Little children, LET NO ONE DECEIVE YOU. Whoever PRACTICES righteousness is RIGHTEOUS, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a PRACTICE OF SINNING is of the DEVIL, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning." - 1st J 378
If a child of God PRACTICES righteousness, lives a sanctified life; he or she is righteous and remains a child of God.
If a child of God chooses to practice sinning, then he or she is of the Devil.
So it is obvious that how Christians choose to live their lives - in obedience or rebellion determines their salvific state.
Even a die-hard Calvinist would give you the same answer as mine - because believers must persevere.
Those who persevere prove that they were called.
The book of Revelation is replete with warnings to the 7 churches warning that the saints must persevere and if they do, they are the overcomers (your definition also differs from mine!) who are dressed in white for they have washed their garments.
You know, it's very funny that the impression i get from you is, if i do something good, say help a nenek across the street, it is not I who did it, but the indwelling HS through me.
So who do you attribute these actions to? We're not robots you know! You do get rewards at the BEMA SEAT.
So that is the fruit of the HS. I on the other hand still believe very much in free will, even after coming to Saving Grace.
Regarding works (out of topic a little, but still connected nonetheless
)
Can you point to me in all of Scripture whether in the OT or the NT, where God condemns works done out of obedience to God?
The answer as you well know is - there is NONE.
So may I ask why do you condemn works?
Titus 2:14 declares: "who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are ZEALOUS for good works."
Ephesians 2:10 states that we were CREATED to do good works.
I believe the error in you argument is you that you fail to distinguish between good works done out of obedience to God and works done in our own flesh.
The former is approved of while the latter is always condemned.
Be careful how you use your terms. Obedience on our part is requisite for salvation for Heb 5:9 states: "And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who OBEY him."
While other scriptures mandate belief note that this verse doesn't say "believe him;" it says "obey him."
Therefore belief and obedience are necessary for salvation. I believe in Jesus but I also pay attention to my own walk as well. I trust you do the same. That's why you said he answered your prayers just yesterday. You're probably very obedient & not even realizing it!
Nobody is accusing you of being a heretic. You just understand doctrine wrong!
You equate obedience = believe
Part of the problem in our English translations is that the Greek verb tenses are not always accurately conveyed.
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Excerpt :
For example if you study the well-known John 3:16 verse, if you parse the verb translated as "believe" it is a present tense verb which signifies continuous action so the word pisteuo is actually "believing." So that everyone who is believing in him shall not perish but have eternal life. Most people read this as a one-time only moment of belief but the verse really refers to the necessity of ONGOING belief.
Just briefly; other food for thought - does being sealed by the Holy Spirit automatically mean that this seal is an unbreakable one? This is the premise in OSAS thinking but the few passages that refer to this do not explicitly state this, so therefore it has to be inferred.
In Eph 1:14-16 the word "arrabon" has been translated as guarantee, pledge, deposit, earnest, down payment toward our inheritance. An analogy to consider is that when one makes a down payment on a mortgage, that transaction shows that the person who gives the deposit/earnest money is demonstrating good faith that the full payment on the balance will eventually be fulfilled.
As we know not all people are faithful in paying off their mortgage. In the same way, not all believers are faithful to the end of their spiritual journey. That is why the Bible calls on every single believer without exception to work out one's salvation with fear and trembling; to fight the good fight and finish the race. Salvation is only promised to those who persevere and overcome. If salvation were a "done deal" these admonitions would be nonsensical.
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Indeed I agree with you that Jesus as our Redeemer has paid our debt on the cross.
However, redemption is not without conditions on our part.
We know that believe is one condition as well as repentance demonstrated as obedience to God.
If these conditions are not fulfilled then we have forfeited our part of the covenant.
Note how Paul described the gospel message he himself preached:
"First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their DEEDS - Acts 26:20
Can see boh??!!
Since the Word does not contradict itself and we must take the whole counsel of Scripture into consideration.
Here are 5 examples from the OT & the NT :
1) Story of Esau
Read the story of Esau for yourself in Genesis 24:29-34.
He sold his inheritance or birthright (a Christian's inheritance is eternal life -Matthew 19-29) on his own free will for only a mess of pottage.
At the point of extreme hunger, the mess of pottage was worth more to Esau than his birthright.
Likewise, at a point of discouragement, weakness, or temptation in a Christian, the pleasure of sin may seem to be worth more to him than his inheritance, so he sells his inheritance for the fleshly desires of the present.
Excerpt :
Hebrews 12:15-17 calls Esau a FORNICATOR and a PROFANE person, "...who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright".
We, too, can sell the priceless gift of salvation and eternal life.
IF Esau was considered a profane (impure; defiled; unsanctified; and unholy) person for selling his birthright (a rightful inheritance given to him by birth. A Christian also has a rightful inheritance by birth into the family of God), how much more would we be considered PROFANE and UNHOLY for flirting with the world?
What does the Bible say about a fornicator? "...they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galations 5:19-21; and 1 Corinthians 6:9-10). Revelation 21:8,27 tells us that these abominable people shall have their part in the LAKE OF FIRE.
Conclusion : not OSAS
2) Parable of the Talents
"Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Matt. 24: ? - ?
So much for eternal security if we don't do our part. I don't think loss of rewards is going to cause wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Conclusion : not OSAS
3) Parable of the Sower (snippet*)
“Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have not root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.” - Luke 8:12-13
See, it says “which for a while believe”.
So according to your doctrine, it’s not possible to become “unsaved”.
Then how come the rest of the verse says “fall away”? Or are you gonna justify it away, & say they were not really saved to begin with? So which is which now?
Conclusion : not OSAS
4) Rich Young Ruler
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
- Book of Matthew
Conclusion : Obedience is required
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Hi Sophiera
Someone said that IF we didn't have the promise of eternal life, that we would have to live in fear all the time, being afraid that we would lose our reward.
This is incorrect. As a child of God, I do not fear losing my salvation or eternal life, as long as (provided that) I keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight
"And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.
Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us." - 1st John 3:23
Besides, if I am living in sin, it may well be that the FEAR OF GOD would cause me to repent.
"So I always take pains to have a clear conscience toward both God and man. " - Acts 24:16
"Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test! " - 2nd Cor 13:5
So we must always keep our conscience clear, otherwise, the feeling of guilt comes naturally.
We can doubt some times. We're human. If your conscience is clear though, you have nothing to be afraid of.
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Paul and Peter spell it out nicely...willful, unrepentant sin.
To sum it up, as Paul told the CHURCH in Galatia, do not be deceived. God will not be mocked.
If you sow to please the sinful nature you will, by that nature reap corruption.
There are many verses telling us, that God's wrath is coming on the....disobedient.
To truly believe, you must obey.
Belief isn't some technicality, it a matter of heart proven, as Paul said, by our deeds.
We all just want our guaranteed free ticket to heaven and then, no matter what sin we are in to, to be raptured up before any tribulations take place.
Do you actually hear yourself talk? I think there's really no point to cont our discussion further. You're arrogant.
You're of the opinion that you are here to TEACH. Not to LEARN.
And also partly because your reputation & credibility will be at stake in this fellowship, if your doctrine is somehow proven to be incorrect.
I've given soooooo many Bible verses that can't support OSAS & you pretend to overlook them.
True that in my zeal, i've probably mistakenly interpreted some verses in isolation. I'm no scholar.
BUT your teaching is bordering on an antinomianism gospel. Be careful!
While legalists are all law, OSASers and other Antinomians are No law!
As far as ‘Obedience’ is concerned, they view it as optional or only required when they feel “Led“.
Their excuse that they are “not under the law” usually takes care of any conviction for disobedience.
A.W. Tozer said: "Antinomianism is the doctrine of grace carried by uncorrected logic to the point of absurdity. It takes the teaching of justification by faith and twists it into deformity."
That amounts to antinomianism, which I don't think you subscribe to, but it is the logical end result of your view point.
http://www.bereanpublishers.com/the-antinomians-are-coming/
My parting words :
It is extremely simplistic to think that the God of the OT is a God of fear & judgement & anger. And the God of the NT, is a God of love. Bible says God is unchanging.
Teaching of the LAW causes people to repent. The LAW of God is to awaken the sleeping sinner.
If i believed in OSAS, i would sin like no tomorrow & hold God ransom because His hands are tied.He has to take me to Heaven after i die, no?
We weren’t given Salvation to just be a ticket to Heaven, as if it’s some form of fire insurance.
Why do you read your Bible? To glorify Christ.
Why do you pray? To glorify Christ.
Why are we to love our neighbour? To glorify Christ.
Why do we always try to do good? ? To glorify Christ.
Try to live honestly when no one is looking? To glorify Christ. So on & so forth. We need to dedicate our lives to Christ here.
Will the belief in ‘once saved, always saved” motivate us to live in pursuit of Holiness? No!
In fact quite the opposite. Human nature being as sinful as it is, will take advantage of Grace & Salvation for granted.
We will not fight temptation with all our might & exercise greater self-control with the OSAS mentality! We can’t just simply live our life.
“Work out our salvation with fear & trembling.” - Philippians 2:12
See? Self-control.
Why would we need to work out our salvation with fear and trembling if there was no risk of losing it? There would be nothing to fear if that was the case.
How about,
"Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting (aionian) kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." - 2 Peter 1:5-11
It’s very obvious that we have free will.
Does it still not appeal to your common sense UW, with verses like this??!!
Coupled with the many that i have posted in our previous exchanges, what more do i have to put in front of you??!!
“ Keep the commandments, and you shall live. “ that is the teaching of scripture. OT & NT.
Bottom line : Forsake habitual wilful sins. Yield to the Spirit. Live a righteous life. Be Obedient.
So I earnestly implore you not to teach a watered-down Gospel. You need to preach of the hard things that are also represented in the Bible.
Those who do not make Jesus the Lord of their lives and live for him, are not guaranteed to appear with him in glory.
You never explained how the Galatian believers who were called and sealed could turn away from the true gospel to follow another gospel, which clearly contradicts your view.
You can't ignore scriptures that contradict your belief.
You keep referring to proof texts(some) which you think supports your view, but I have attempted to show that they actually don't.
At this point, I will respectfully disagree as we can agree to disagree. Thanks for the opportunity to have corresponded with you.
"If ye love me, keep my commandments" - John 14:15
You gotta be joking if you don't think the LAW applies to us!
I'll just take 2 commandments :
"Thou shalt not kill."
"Thou shalt not commit adultery."
Tell me, if it wasn't right to murder in the time of Moses, is it perfectly okay to kill people now?
But it's okay to do it, because the Blood covers everything & God only sees Jesus when we sin?
Or you can run around behind your wife's back(not accusing you mate, just giving an e.g.) with other women, because the Blood covers everything anyway?
You would obviously answer no, right, that Christians shouldn't murder & fornicate?
So doesn't that mean you are being obedient?! And are you not still keeping the law?
So what has changed? The only difference is that we no longer sacrifice animals under this dispensation.
We still have to obey God's commandments.
Your understanding of commandment is severely limited to "LOVE" only. Love is the only commandment in your books. That is incorrect!
Disclaimer: Of course it's natural that even if you keep the LAW, but don't believe in the Gospel, it's pointless. It would be in vain. That's why only God can Save.
He still offered to save us in spite of mankind's terrible sinfulness. We don't deserve it! That, to me is the definition of unmerited favour. He doesn't have to, but he wants to!
Nothing to do with OSAS, which is our point of contention.
UW, i'm very curious as to how you witness to people.
If you do not present and make them aware of the LAW in the 1st place, how do you expect them to accept GRACE?
You're only presenting a one sided Gospel.
They don't see carrying their cross, or dying to self daily, or "be Holy for i'm Holy"after coming to Christ, because of Once Saved, Always Saved.
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?" - Romans 6:1
"What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law, but under grace? By no means!" - Romans 6:15 "Or God forbid"
If i'm not mistaken, even you yourself quoted the above verse. And they don't appear as obedience to you?
You simply don't deal with the scriptures as you continue to not address my citation of Rom 8: and Gal 1:6 which appear to totally contradict your view.
And then you go all over the place & quote me Romans 11.
Respectfully, when I offer a counterpoint to your view but you don't address it, how does repeating what you already wrote suffice as an answer?
1. Is a person who meets the criteria specified in Rom 8:30 sealed?
2. Were the believers in Gal 1:6 whom Paul referred to as called, still sealed despite them turning away from the true gospel to follow other gospels?
These two verses alone, undermine your view that a believer is sealed until redemption.
If you still think they are, then please explain.
The difference in our interpretation of Rom 8 is that you think the warning passages in Rom 8 are written to unbelievers so that Paul is writing to a mixed audience -
those who are saved and sealed; and those who are not saved and sealed.
The problem is no where that I'm aware in the NT does Paul address his comments to non-Christians.
His letters were specifically addressed to the saints in the churches; never unbelievers.
In spite of that, even if I adopted your perspective your interpretation of, let's say 8:13, would still not make sense for it would read according to your view:
"For if you [unbelievers] live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you [believers] put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. - Rom 8:13
Sounds stupid doesn't it?
First off, it is impossible for unbelievers to not live according to the flesh, therefore it would be ridiculous for Paul to write such a statement.
He would never employ the word "if." Unbelievers can ONLY live according to the flesh - so it is not even a matter of IF.
If Paul were referencing unbelievers, he would have instead used the word "since" but such is not the case so your interpretation clearly does not fit the text.
One has to account for all of the scriptures in forming one's view. So I'll ask again - Is a person who meets the criteria specified in Rom 8:30 sealed? Yes or no?
If you answer yes then you would have to agree that being called means an unbreakable seal.
That's why I led you to Gal 1:6 where despite being called, the Galatian believers turned to follow other gospels.
I have been attempting to point out the fundamental flaw in your view but you either don't understand it or you overlook it. Correct me if I'm wrong but you believe:
1. Christians are sealed until redemption.
2. Christians sin and stumble.
The logical conclusion of your premises is that no matter how little or how much Christians sin, they are still saved because they are sealed.
If you claim that there is a limit to sinning if one is to inherit salvation then you have to admit that a Christian is not sealed until redemption, as too much sinning disqualifies one from eternal life.
Your only other option is to claim that such people were never saved in the first place.
In other words, they was never predestined, called and justified and subsequently won't be glorified according to Rom 8:30. To be called is to be sealed.
However as I pointed out earlier Gal 1:6 states that people can be "called" but still fail to persevere and sin by turning to another gospel according to Paul.
Your view contradicts with Paul's own testimony that demonstrates that a person who is called and sealed can still abandon the gospel to follow another gospel.
So have to somehow reconcile this with your view.
Errmmm, yesterday i said Rom 8 is very, very interesting. Here's why :
Paul states "IF" you are led by the Spirit which makes this a conditional statement meaning the possibility of believers not being led by the Spirit.
So therefore while it is certainly true that when one is regenerated, one is indwelt by the Spirit, it does not automatically entail that one will "follow" or be "led by the Spirit".
Paul says clearly before we even get to verse 12 and 13 that if the Spirit of God dwells in you you are not in the flesh and what he is going to say in verse 12 and 13 does not apply to a person indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
“So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.”
Paul’s warning is a sombre one as these verses describe the potential death of born-again believers, referred to as the BROTHERS/BRETHREN.
If this death were not a real possibility, the warning would be nonsensical
We also know that this warning pertains to spiritual death – not physical death – because everyone dies physically irrespective of how we live our lives.
Moreover, one must have spiritual life in order to be in danger of spiritual death.
You cannot threaten a spiritually dead person with spiritual death! Such a person is already dead.
Therefore, it must be concluded that these are regenerate brethren who are being warned of dying.
Also note that this verse is conditional – not unconditional – as indicated by the word “if.” IF believers walk according to the flesh = they will die.
IF believers walk according to the Spirit = they will live. Simple as that.
Verse 13 CANNOT BE SAID to apply to unbelievers because only believers have the choice as to whether to walk according to the Spirit or according to the flesh.
Unregenerate persons have no such choice; are incapable of walking according to the Spirit and can only walk according to the flesh - there is no "if" involved.
Thus, it stands to reason that Paul’s warning of spiritual death; i.e. eternal separation from God is exclusively directed to Christians who live in rebellion and knowingly engage in habitual sin.
Finally, Rom 8:25-39 actually states the opposite of what you believe.
It is true that nothing can separate us from the love of Christ. But what does "nothing" refer to?
The verse itself defines nothing as "tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword."
Nothing does not include ongoing unrepentant habitual sin which does separate us from the love of Christ.
To include sin in this verse is to read it into the verse something which it does not say!
We have assurance as long as our lives are generally characterized by living according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh.
"So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." - Rom 8:12-13
Next, you quoted Romans 11:20 & 11:22. And your point is?
The verses are just warning us Gentiles not to become arrogant, because we were grafted in, & because we are not Jews. It also warns of unbelief. So, yeah.
No countering points to obedience. It's talking about something else.
Likewise, i also quoted to you before that we are just grafted in & we can be "cut off" & "thrown into the fire".
"I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned." - John 15:5-6
See the word fruit there again? You think Christians who are not obedient to follow the promptings of the HS will bear any fruit?
Obedience + Belief in Christ amounts to something
Also, i never said the blood of Christ is not able to wash away our sins!
See? Putting words into my mouth again! Accusing me of works based salvation
The meaning of the above verse is very, very clear to me. As is also :
- 1st Corinthians 6:9-11
Take it however you will.
I am fully aware of the context of Hebrews 10:26-29 and its setting. It was talking to the new Messianic Jews about temple sacrifices, return to Judaism, etc.
The verses above, if taken in isolation, will scare the daylights out of people.
I apologize
if i had erred in using these as an example, given that there are other more suitable verses in the Bible to prove my point. Excerpt :
But do consider how many of today's believers behave in a way they know is sinful, and yet they go ahead and do what they feel like doing, anyway?
That's because they mistakenly think Divine grace covers intentional sin.
That is a huge misconception! Divine grace has made wonderful provision for unintentional sin. But there is no provision for intentional sin. The Bible tells us so.
Deliberate, premeditated sin is willful disobedience and rebellion against ELOHIM. It results in severe punishment or even loss of our salvation.
This verse is loaded with meaning in the Greek language. The root Greek word for “willfully” is ekousios which implies a willing choice without force. The Greek word for “sinning” is a present participle which has the idea of “continually sinning.” The Greek word for “knowledge” is an unusual Greek word implying not just “knowledge” but “full-knowledge.” The Greek word for “no longer” has a sense of “running out of time.”
If we put it all together this is the meaning of these two verses. If after a person has received full-knowledge about Jesus, and he or she still willingly, without force, continues sinning (no fear of God) – there is no sacrifice that can save him or her! Heb 10:26
-end-
I brought out the controversial Hebrews 10:26-29 verses simply because of :
1) Hebrews is written in the NT
2) It was written to Christian "believers"
3) It has a dual application. It applied to those back in the day, as well as serves as a warning to present age believers.
So decide for yourselves : http://cgi.org/once-saved-always-saved/
This is not hard to understand! If you don't Love the Father, obviously you love the world more. How do you show your love to the Father? You must be obedient!You follow & do what he says. There must be ACTION on our part.
Just by saying "I believe in Jesus. I believe he is God in the flesh. I believe he died for my sins.", but not follow what he says, means by default you prefer the world.
A Christian who says he believes in Jesus, but prefers to live like the world (drunkardness, pre-marital sex, watch porn, get high on weed, etc) LOVES the world more than JESUS.
"Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, - 1 John 2:4
Til now you still don't understand that LAW & GRACE go hand in hand. You only ever really understand the concept of Salvation is simple (which is true).
I've read a lot of your devotionals & it gives me the impression that you have a phobia against the LAW.
You're so terrified of the LAW that you think people who obey the LAW are self-righteous & thus are works-based, which is not true!
As Christians we show our faith by our works. (this one i know you agree)
It is a manifestation of our love for Him.
Keeping God’s commandments and doing right are merely the result of His Holy Spirit dwelling in the heart. (your definition of commandments differs from mine)
These are the fruits of the Holy Spirit.
We do these things not to be saved, but because we are saved. (this one i'm sure you agree too)
As long as we love the Lord with all of our heart, we are going to be obedient to Him and cling to Him.
He will not let go of us unless we cast Him away through our continued sin and indifference and willful disobedience (OSAS will do that!).
Since you quoted John, I shall do the same
:1st John 3:7-8 directly answers your question due to the fact that we still maintain our own volition to choose whether to live a sanctified life or to practice a sinful life.
"Little children, LET NO ONE DECEIVE YOU. Whoever PRACTICES righteousness is RIGHTEOUS, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a PRACTICE OF SINNING is of the DEVIL, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning." - 1st J 378
If a child of God PRACTICES righteousness, lives a sanctified life; he or she is righteous and remains a child of God.
If a child of God chooses to practice sinning, then he or she is of the Devil.
So it is obvious that how Christians choose to live their lives - in obedience or rebellion determines their salvific state.
Even a die-hard Calvinist would give you the same answer as mine - because believers must persevere.
Those who persevere prove that they were called.
The book of Revelation is replete with warnings to the 7 churches warning that the saints must persevere and if they do, they are the overcomers (your definition also differs from mine!) who are dressed in white for they have washed their garments.
You know, it's very funny that the impression i get from you is, if i do something good, say help a nenek across the street, it is not I who did it, but the indwelling HS through me.
So who do you attribute these actions to? We're not robots you know! You do get rewards at the BEMA SEAT.
So that is the fruit of the HS. I on the other hand still believe very much in free will, even after coming to Saving Grace.
Regarding works (out of topic a little, but still connected nonetheless
)Can you point to me in all of Scripture whether in the OT or the NT, where God condemns works done out of obedience to God?
The answer as you well know is - there is NONE.
So may I ask why do you condemn works?
Titus 2:14 declares: "who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are ZEALOUS for good works."
Ephesians 2:10 states that we were CREATED to do good works.
I believe the error in you argument is you that you fail to distinguish between good works done out of obedience to God and works done in our own flesh.
The former is approved of while the latter is always condemned.
Be careful how you use your terms. Obedience on our part is requisite for salvation for Heb 5:9 states: "And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who OBEY him."
While other scriptures mandate belief note that this verse doesn't say "believe him;" it says "obey him."
Therefore belief and obedience are necessary for salvation. I believe in Jesus but I also pay attention to my own walk as well. I trust you do the same. That's why you said he answered your prayers just yesterday. You're probably very obedient & not even realizing it!
Nobody is accusing you of being a heretic. You just understand doctrine wrong!
You equate obedience = believe
Part of the problem in our English translations is that the Greek verb tenses are not always accurately conveyed.
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Excerpt :
For example if you study the well-known John 3:16 verse, if you parse the verb translated as "believe" it is a present tense verb which signifies continuous action so the word pisteuo is actually "believing." So that everyone who is believing in him shall not perish but have eternal life. Most people read this as a one-time only moment of belief but the verse really refers to the necessity of ONGOING belief.
Just briefly; other food for thought - does being sealed by the Holy Spirit automatically mean that this seal is an unbreakable one? This is the premise in OSAS thinking but the few passages that refer to this do not explicitly state this, so therefore it has to be inferred.
In Eph 1:14-16 the word "arrabon" has been translated as guarantee, pledge, deposit, earnest, down payment toward our inheritance. An analogy to consider is that when one makes a down payment on a mortgage, that transaction shows that the person who gives the deposit/earnest money is demonstrating good faith that the full payment on the balance will eventually be fulfilled.
As we know not all people are faithful in paying off their mortgage. In the same way, not all believers are faithful to the end of their spiritual journey. That is why the Bible calls on every single believer without exception to work out one's salvation with fear and trembling; to fight the good fight and finish the race. Salvation is only promised to those who persevere and overcome. If salvation were a "done deal" these admonitions would be nonsensical.
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Indeed I agree with you that Jesus as our Redeemer has paid our debt on the cross.
However, redemption is not without conditions on our part.
We know that believe is one condition as well as repentance demonstrated as obedience to God.
If these conditions are not fulfilled then we have forfeited our part of the covenant.
Note how Paul described the gospel message he himself preached:
"First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their DEEDS - Acts 26:20
Can see boh??!!
Since the Word does not contradict itself and we must take the whole counsel of Scripture into consideration.
Here are 5 examples from the OT & the NT :
1) Story of Esau
Read the story of Esau for yourself in Genesis 24:29-34.
He sold his inheritance or birthright (a Christian's inheritance is eternal life -Matthew 19-29) on his own free will for only a mess of pottage.
At the point of extreme hunger, the mess of pottage was worth more to Esau than his birthright.
Likewise, at a point of discouragement, weakness, or temptation in a Christian, the pleasure of sin may seem to be worth more to him than his inheritance, so he sells his inheritance for the fleshly desires of the present.
Excerpt :
Hebrews 12:15-17 calls Esau a FORNICATOR and a PROFANE person, "...who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright".
We, too, can sell the priceless gift of salvation and eternal life.
IF Esau was considered a profane (impure; defiled; unsanctified; and unholy) person for selling his birthright (a rightful inheritance given to him by birth. A Christian also has a rightful inheritance by birth into the family of God), how much more would we be considered PROFANE and UNHOLY for flirting with the world?
What does the Bible say about a fornicator? "...they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galations 5:19-21; and 1 Corinthians 6:9-10). Revelation 21:8,27 tells us that these abominable people shall have their part in the LAKE OF FIRE.
Conclusion : not OSAS
2) Parable of the Talents
"Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Matt. 24: ? - ?
So much for eternal security if we don't do our part. I don't think loss of rewards is going to cause wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Conclusion : not OSAS
3) Parable of the Sower (snippet*)
“Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have not root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.” - Luke 8:12-13
See, it says “which for a while believe”.
So according to your doctrine, it’s not possible to become “unsaved”.
Then how come the rest of the verse says “fall away”? Or are you gonna justify it away, & say they were not really saved to begin with? So which is which now?
Conclusion : not OSAS
4) Rich Young Ruler
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
- Book of Matthew
Conclusion : Obedience is required
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Hi Sophiera
Someone said that IF we didn't have the promise of eternal life, that we would have to live in fear all the time, being afraid that we would lose our reward.
This is incorrect. As a child of God, I do not fear losing my salvation or eternal life, as long as (provided that) I keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight
"And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.
Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us." - 1st John 3:23
Besides, if I am living in sin, it may well be that the FEAR OF GOD would cause me to repent.
"So I always take pains to have a clear conscience toward both God and man. " - Acts 24:16
"Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test! " - 2nd Cor 13:5
So we must always keep our conscience clear, otherwise, the feeling of guilt comes naturally.
We can doubt some times. We're human. If your conscience is clear though, you have nothing to be afraid of.
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Paul and Peter spell it out nicely...willful, unrepentant sin.
To sum it up, as Paul told the CHURCH in Galatia, do not be deceived. God will not be mocked.
If you sow to please the sinful nature you will, by that nature reap corruption.
There are many verses telling us, that God's wrath is coming on the....disobedient.
To truly believe, you must obey.
Belief isn't some technicality, it a matter of heart proven, as Paul said, by our deeds.
We all just want our guaranteed free ticket to heaven and then, no matter what sin we are in to, to be raptured up before any tribulations take place.
Do you actually hear yourself talk? I think there's really no point to cont our discussion further. You're arrogant.
You're of the opinion that you are here to TEACH. Not to LEARN.
And also partly because your reputation & credibility will be at stake in this fellowship, if your doctrine is somehow proven to be incorrect.
I've given soooooo many Bible verses that can't support OSAS & you pretend to overlook them.
True that in my zeal, i've probably mistakenly interpreted some verses in isolation. I'm no scholar.
BUT your teaching is bordering on an antinomianism gospel. Be careful!
While legalists are all law, OSASers and other Antinomians are No law!
As far as ‘Obedience’ is concerned, they view it as optional or only required when they feel “Led“.
Their excuse that they are “not under the law” usually takes care of any conviction for disobedience.
A.W. Tozer said: "Antinomianism is the doctrine of grace carried by uncorrected logic to the point of absurdity. It takes the teaching of justification by faith and twists it into deformity."
That amounts to antinomianism, which I don't think you subscribe to, but it is the logical end result of your view point.
http://www.bereanpublishers.com/the-antinomians-are-coming/
My parting words :
It is extremely simplistic to think that the God of the OT is a God of fear & judgement & anger. And the God of the NT, is a God of love. Bible says God is unchanging.
Teaching of the LAW causes people to repent. The LAW of God is to awaken the sleeping sinner.
If i believed in OSAS, i would sin like no tomorrow & hold God ransom because His hands are tied.He has to take me to Heaven after i die, no?
We weren’t given Salvation to just be a ticket to Heaven, as if it’s some form of fire insurance.
Why do you read your Bible? To glorify Christ.
Why do you pray? To glorify Christ.
Why are we to love our neighbour? To glorify Christ.
Why do we always try to do good? ? To glorify Christ.
Try to live honestly when no one is looking? To glorify Christ. So on & so forth. We need to dedicate our lives to Christ here.
Will the belief in ‘once saved, always saved” motivate us to live in pursuit of Holiness? No!
In fact quite the opposite. Human nature being as sinful as it is, will take advantage of Grace & Salvation for granted.
We will not fight temptation with all our might & exercise greater self-control with the OSAS mentality! We can’t just simply live our life.
“Work out our salvation with fear & trembling.” - Philippians 2:12
See? Self-control.
Why would we need to work out our salvation with fear and trembling if there was no risk of losing it? There would be nothing to fear if that was the case.
How about,
"Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting (aionian) kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." - 2 Peter 1:5-11
It’s very obvious that we have free will.
Does it still not appeal to your common sense UW, with verses like this??!!
Coupled with the many that i have posted in our previous exchanges, what more do i have to put in front of you??!!
“ Keep the commandments, and you shall live. “ that is the teaching of scripture. OT & NT.
Bottom line : Forsake habitual wilful sins. Yield to the Spirit. Live a righteous life. Be Obedient.
So I earnestly implore you not to teach a watered-down Gospel. You need to preach of the hard things that are also represented in the Bible.
Those who do not make Jesus the Lord of their lives and live for him, are not guaranteed to appear with him in glory.
You never explained how the Galatian believers who were called and sealed could turn away from the true gospel to follow another gospel, which clearly contradicts your view.
You can't ignore scriptures that contradict your belief.
You keep referring to proof texts(some) which you think supports your view, but I have attempted to show that they actually don't.
At this point, I will respectfully disagree as we can agree to disagree. Thanks for the opportunity to have corresponded with you.
"If ye love me, keep my commandments" - John 14:15
While I was driving yesterday, I believe the Lord impressed on me, to tell you this.
I don't know why the thought came but I believe it's what God wants me to tell you.
If you put Man's effort into justification for Salvation then of course, Salvation is never secured, the possibility to lose it is very great indeed. For obvious reason, Man is not perfect under this dispensation of Age, as we still live in our old body with the Flesh.
However IF the justification for Salvation is the work of the Lord alone and Man has no part in it, THEN there is eternal security because the work of God is perfect and divine. Our Part is to look to God in Faith that Jesus is the Saving one, not us.
If you put in a mixture Man's effort and God's work as justification for Salvation, then the possibility to lose Salvation is still there because of the part of Man, In this mixture it will be an up and down scenario.
The Lord gave me couple of verses to help explain to you what I've just said.
Ephesians 2:8 (KJV) - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.
The key here is the phrase; "that not of yourselves". This tell me, we have no part in the saving. In here lies our eternal security. If you say this verse is incomplete because other part of other verses must be included then I will tell you the phrase "That not of yourselves" is a lie and is not true. You know that God never make mistakes in dispensing the meaning of his word. I'm sorry Mr. Wong but I am thoroughly convinced this is correct.
Another verse to help you understand, why the part of Man has no role and cannot be mix for justification for salvation, is this verse.
Romans 11:6 (NIV) - And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
I've already explained to you before, Works here refers to Works of the Law, so in other word it is also referring to obedience. Obedience is works the moment you use it for justification for Salvation. Why? For obvious reason, you make Salvation now depending on your performance. Do right and you qualify, Do wrong and you disqualify. The very same argument you disagreed with the Catholics.
Oh the irony. All the verses that you pointed out above is not what you think it is. Same problem when you tried to use the phrase "sinning willfully" in your attempt to convince me.
As to what you said about us Christian sinning and we are still covered, YES we are. But I'm not going to waste my time explaining to you if you are not open to understand how it's possible. I will only give my time to believers who can believe God is really that good to cover us.
Sorry Mr Wong but I'm thoroughly convinced, theology alone is not enough, when you pit between 1 theology against another, it must be confirmed by God through his power demonstrated. This is substantiate by the verse below. What I'm saying is that I know I have tasted the Lord is indeed good, I've tasted his miracle and power quite consistently and I'm not turning back from what He has taught me about his Grace. It is magnificent and very grossly misunderstood by Christians who are for the Law. No where do Grace teach believers to sin, that fearful thought has been deposited into your mind by the devil and you think of "License to Sin" simply because you lack Faith in God's grace. That is the main problem.
1 Corinthians 4:20 (NIV) - For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power.
This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jan 28 2018, 12:55 AM
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You're quoting the Bible out of context again! I already asked you which Bible you use, because only the KJV contains the complete verse. 
Your questions are the most COMMON arguments that OSAS believers use! 
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