Didn't you just agree with me when you said the RED highlighted part?  

Perhaps you might want to expound on that.

I also believe in eternal security & OSAS IF we continue abiding in Christ. I will explain on  *'IF' further.



For the rest of what you said after that, that is not needed in our discussion.

I agree    we should pray for them & let God be the judge, but that is not our point of contention right now.

You are aware that "Christians who love to sin & yet profess to believe in Christ", are to be put out of the church?

We should not even sup with them! The term is brother(s).



- 1st Corinthians 5:9 - 11

As for the blue highlighted part, it's not hard to crack at all!

There are just too many verses sprinkled all over the Bible as warnings to Christians which are impossible to ignore.

We can't just acknowledge the verses about God's Saving Grace, & yet ignore other passages. They're there in the Bible.

The word apostasy is clearly written in the Bible.

By definition, only believers can be guilty of apostasy.

It is impossible for unbelievers to apostatize, as one cannot abandon the faith since one was never a part of the faith to begin with. Makes sense?

"Now the Spirit says clearly that in the last times some people will abandon the faith by following deceitful spirits, the teachings of demons," - 1st Tim 4:1

Only the brethren are capable of abandoning the faith. Can Paul be any clearer that Christians can fall away?

That is why Paul calls for all believers to persevere (i've used this word many times) in the closing verse of chapter 4.

"Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because IF YOU DO, you WILL SAVE both yourself and your hearers." - 1st Tim 4:16

Paul's warning is a conditional one, as indicated by his use of the little word "if."

Converse logic dictates that IF you DO NOT (persevere), you WILL NOT SAVE yourself and your hearers.

Salvation is conditional. Not unconditional.
*Let's move on to the 'IF'

Everyone needs to read the bible and see how many times we are warned to "take heed", and how many times the words are spoken of for us to "keep" and "continue", and we must not overlook the all too important little word, "if"...

I for one would not want to find out which doctrine is correct, by err-ing on the side of "grace covers all", only to find out that Jesus meant what He said, when He said He would be coming back for a church that is without spot or wrinkle, (not one that is dirtied up with the world and its ways.)

If one is living as close to God as possible, then the doctrine wouldn't matter!!

Likewise, i would like to congratulate you on your Christian walk, if you've only been going from strength to strength after leaving Buddhism   

However, if one is "touching the unclean thing" and is counting on that "once you are saved, you are always saved" to be put into action, I am afraid that one will be very shocked when the Lord returns.

He clearly said to "Come out from among them and be ye separate (says the Lord) and touch NOT the unclean thing and I will receive you." - 2nd Cor. 6:17
To focus eternal life on a past moment, when one once made a decision for Christ is not consistent with the Scriptures.

This would eliminate man’s free will (we go into free will in another session) from that point on, which the Lord never does.

Willful sin shatters the relationship by which eternal life is obtained. There is an eternal “if” in every consideration of eternal security.

Excerpt :-

• “…if we walk in the light…the blood of Jesus Christ his son cleanseth us from all sin.” 1 John 1:7
• “…if that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.” 1 John 2:24
• “…if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.” Hebrews 10:38
• “…if a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire…” John 15:6
• “…if a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.” John 8:51
• “…if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” Romans 11:22
• “…if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.” 2 Peter 1:10
• “For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end.” Hebrews 3:14
• “…if we deny him, he also will deny us.” 2 Timothy 2:12
• “…if any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” 1 John 2:15
• “Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.” John 15:14
• “…if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die.” Romans 8:13

I dunno mang! I see many, many "ifs" written in the Bible 

All of these Scriptures are conditional, if we, as men, take our responsibility in the plan of salvation; God’s sovereignty certainly holds no flaws.

All of the Scriptures fit in their proper place when we look at them in a balanced perspective.

We do not have to throw any of them out to make our doctrine fit.

There are Scriptures directed to those who are in danger of falling away, others which are directed to those who have no hope and have sinned unto death; some are for those who have overcome and therefore cannot fall from grace, and still others are directed to those who are striving to reach that place.

Looking at the Scriptures in this light, we can see they do not contradict one another.


Since you touched on Galatians, i will also quote Galatians & throw in another verse from Romans. Just 1 of many from Romans.   

How bout Romans 8:30  &  Gal  1:6?

Rom 8:30 is a favorite among those who believe in eternal security as they claim this verse demonstrates an unbreakable golden chain of redemption.

"Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." - Romans 8:30  (Sophiera asked about this in the thread, yes?)

They presume that since none of the links in this chain can be broken off from one another, our salvation is assured.

Since whom God predestines, he will also call, justify and ultimately glorify.

Sounds like Paul is making a fool-proof argument here doesn't it?

However, if it can be demonstrated that any of these "links" can be broken off from one another, then logically our salvation is not secure.

One need look no further than,

"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all." - Galatians 1:6-7

The word "called" here is the same word used in Rom 8:30. Yet, despite being called, those Galatian believers still turned away and deserted Christ.

This verse demonstrates that just because one is called in Rom 8:30, does not automatically entail that one will be glorified.

Therefore I submit that the text of Romans 8 actually makes a very strong case for conditional security rather than unconditional security.
As for Romans 8:1, i just wanted to see which Bible ver. you would refer to, given your doctrinal stance. So here they are :
"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" - NIV

"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus"  - ESV

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." - KJV

Funny how only the KJV has a condition attached    Different manuscripts maybe  LOL
The whole chapter of Romans 8 is actually very, very good. I've only touched on Rom 8:30 above.

Ok, i better stop here. In case the guy in the "French maid's uniform" complains again about not putting everything under a spoiler 

Butchering Exposed

I’d rather not make you wonder if I was being fair by paraphrasing these health and wealth preachers.  So I figured I’d let them speak for themselves, thus revealing their butchering ways totally on their own.

So, without further ado and in no particular order, here are some examples of the butchering Mark 10.29-30 by prosperity gospel preachers:

Robert Tilton (AKA the Farting Preacher):  Tilton cites Mark 10.30 and builds a principle on it called “God’s Law of Compensation,” which he writes about in God’s Laws of Success.  He says that God set this principle in motion back in the book of Genesis with Abraham and this “Law of Compensation” is “here in the earth” (page 142).  In other words, God will give back to us here on earth what we give him, and then some.  He has to.  It’s a law after all!

Kenneth Copeland (AKA the Godfather of the Prosperity Gospel): Copeland wrote a book entitled Laws of Prosperity.  In it he constantly refers to Mark 10:30 and its supposed hundredfold promised return on investment.  And on page 58 he says this: “Do you want a hundredfold return on your money? Give and let God multiply it back to you. No bank in the world offers this kind of return! Praise the Lord!”  Do you see that?  He guarantees that if you give, then you’ll get back 100 times what you gave!  That’s crazy!

Paula White: White is in same boat with Tilton and Copeland.  However, she at least admits that there’s something funny in Mark 10.30, namely the word “persecution.”  Here are her words describing what this persecution means:

Nobody said it would come easy. In fact, in Mark 10:28, Peter said, “We have left all.” And Jesus answered, “There is nothing you have left, not houses, not brothers, not sister, that you will not have a hundredfold return and eternal life in this life, with persecution.” That’ s the problem. God said, “You’re going to get it, but it’s going to come with persecution.” The enemy doesn’t want you to walk in it. That’s okay. Who cares about the giants in the land? Just go forth in grace. Go for your stuff. Go for your anointing. Go for your family. Go for your increase. Go for your supernatural abundance. [SOURCE]

So the persecution that Jesus promised would come is simply the enemy, AKA the devil, wanting us not to walk in God’s blessings.  What does that mean?  God will bless us with “stuff” and “increase” but the devil’s job is to prevent us from enjoying it?  Instead of letting the devil do that, White wants us to go for what’s ours.  That sounds pretty selfish to me.

Joyce Meyer: Meyer says that she wants us to know that “God wants us to manage our resources, not the other way around.”  I can get behind that.  Let’s see what managing our resources look like according to Meyer?  Well, she gives some pretty good advice, like work hard and save your money.  But then she also draws on the same idea that there’s some sort of a law forcing God’s hand when you give:

Whatever you give up now will come back to you one-hundred-fold in this lifetime (see Mark 10:29-30). If you want to have an abundant life, then I encourage you to ask God to help you live generously. [SOURCE]

So two things: 1) It looks like she ignores the persecution part of Mark 10.30 altogether.  Instead she focuses on the hundredfold blessing that is activated by giving and is repaid financially.  2) She seems to be encouraging people’s natural propensity for wanting more and more and more — “If you want to have the abundant life…”  Who doesn’t?  Meyer is simply picking the low-hanging fruit of human sinfulness here.

Creflo Dollar (AKA The $60 Million Dollar Jet Man): According to the hundredfold math, I wonder what Dollar gave in order to think he was going to get that jet.  Let’s see, $60 million divided by 100 equals…$600 thousand.  Now if there were investments this successful, then we’d all be living it up like Scrooge McDuck!  (Did he actually live it up?  I don’t remember…)  In a study note entitled “The Law that Governs Abundance,” Dollar claims that in order to live the abundant life we must obey God.  Obeying connects us to God’s blessings and disobedience does the opposite.  He ends this particular study note with these two lines:

It is okay to have riches, but we should never trust in them (Psalm 52:7).

Anything we give up for Jesus will be returned to us a hundredfold in this lifetime (Mark 10:29, 30).   [SOURCE]

So being rich if fine but don’t trust in it.  But just in case you need to be tempted to trust in riches, give up lots of stuff for Jesus so that it will be returned to you times 100.  Then you’ll find out first hand if it’s hard to never trust in riches!  Again, notice that there’s no mention of the persecution in Mark 10.30.

 

After looking at each example of butchering of Mark 10:30, what do we see?  What do each of these readings have in common?

Well, giving apparently forces God to multiply what we gave up for him by 100.  It appears that he must do it!  And apparently we all should be seeking after the abundant life, meaning a life full of stuff and increase.  And the way to get there, to that abundant life, is to manipulate God by taking advantage of his law of compensation.

Ugh.  All this butchering makes me want to explore the text from Mark 10 myself.

 

Hopefully Not Butchering the Bible

So the five preachers that I pointed out above put their thoughts about things out there.  So I guess I should do the same.  Whether or not I’m guilty of butchering the Bible too is up to you to decide!

Here we go.

What is the context of Mark 10.29-30.  Well, it appears in a larger section in which Jesus was teaching.  At the beginning of chapter 10 he’s teaching about divorce (such an easy topic these days!).  And, as he’s teaching, people are bringing him their children.  Even though the disciples are annoyed by this, Jesus welcomes it, even saying that folks must receive the kingdom of God like a child in order to enter it.

After chillin’ with the kiddos for a bit, Jesus starts on his way, presumably to leave, when a man runs up, falls on his knees before Jesus, and begins a conversation.  He asks “What do I have to do to really live, to have eternal life?”  Jesus tells him that he needs to keep the commands from the Old Testament.  The man says he’s done so since he was a child.

Then Jesus looked at him and loved him.  I love that line.  What would it have meant for this man to be loved in this way?  And then think about what Jesus is about to ask of this man!  Jesus asks something hard, but does so in love.

And what is that hard thing that Jesus asks of this man?  It’s simply this: Sell all your stuff, give the proceeds to the poor, and follow me.

The man got really sad and left.  It should be noted that we don’t know what he actually did next.  Did this man go back to his previous way of life?  Or did he actually sell it all in obedience to Jesus?  We don’t know!

Whatever the case, Jesus uses this interaction as a teaching moment for his disciples.  He says to them “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!”

Now we should pause here for a moment.  This idea flies in the face of a lot of what we read earlier by the health and wealth preachers.  If it’s hard to enter the kingdom for the rich, why would we follow the advice of the prosperity preachers by giving in faith so that we can get 100 times back?  Would all that money make it harder for us to follow God well?

In any case, Jesus continues.  He says again how entering the kingdom of God is hard and follows that up with this doozy: “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

Wow!  Again, why would I want to pursue being rich if it might prevent me from living under the rule of God?  I’ll take not-rich instead!

The disciples are shocked and wonder among themselves who could be saved then if the rich can’t.  Jesus answers by saying that what seems impossible to us humans, is no big deal to God.  All things are possible for God.

So the disciples are hearing all of this and they must be thinking that Jesus is calling them to sacrifice more, which seems a bit unfair.  So Peter says, paraphrasing, “Jesus, no thanks. We’ve left everything to follow you.  What’s in it for us?”

Jesus’ answer is perfect:

“Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life.” (Mark 10.29-30)

So within the larger story, these two verses begin to make more sense.  The disciples have literally left their families behind for the sake of following Jesus and they’ve left the land where they grew food for their families.  Now what?  Jesus must surely be aware that they’re feeling this way, because this is exactly where he goes.

So those who have lost relationships and property will receive one hundred times what they have lost.  How?  How does this work?  We know for a fact that the disciples didn’t receive 100 times what they gave up. They all died horrifically, while being more or less impoverished.    This can’t be a literal a literal tit-for-(100)-tats, or we would have known about it.  There’d be stories of Thomas living it up in India and Peter building a palace to rival Caesar’s in Rome.  But we don’t have stories like that.  Instead we have stories of faithful men dying for their faith.

So something else must be in play here — namely, community.  Jesus seems to be saying, at least the way I read it, that the relationships and security, which are sometimes given up as the cost of following Jesus, are expertly replaced by members of the community that God is creating.

But just in case anyone thought all of this shared community and security would bring peace of mind and assurance with it, Jesus tells his disciples that persecution is on the way.  This is no get-rich-quick scheme.  No!  Instead this is Jesus giving his closest followers a glimpse into the reality that they’ll be facing.

 

The picture Jesus paints here is nothing like that which is drawn by the health and wealth gospel people.  Jesus seems to be saying this: Being rich can be a major hindrance to following Jesus.  So instead of pursuing that, let’s follow Jesus despite the cost, trusting that he’ll take care of our needs for relationship and relative security.

There is no explicit formula in play here.  This isn’t a “give a seed offering of 100 dollars and watch God give you 10,000 bucks back!”  Quite the opposite.  What Jesus has in mind in this passage is a deep trust that whatever God wants to give us through the community he is creating is enough.  Nothing else is needed.