Excellent piece from an once defeated believer


Like many Christians today, Stephen Pippin long believed in the adage, "Once saved, always saved."

This concept, sometimes referred to as "hyper-grace," is often preached in the pulpits of America—leading many to conclude that their ticket to heaven is secure once they say the sinner's prayer.

"The only thing I'm saying is when the preacher says, 'Believe in Christ and you will be saved,' know it is a belief that is supposed to last all your life. It's not just a belief that is supposed to last just that night," says Pippin, the assistant pastor at Dodson Branch Community Church in Cookeville, Tennessee, and the author of Once Saved, Always Saved.

"It's living in Christ. It's fellowship. It's a constant relationship. Christ is your friend. He's not just your ticket to heaven and way out of hell. It's loving God that gets us to heaven. But Jesus says many will go to hell. How many say the sinner's prayer and many years later are just as bad or worse? I know people like that in my own life. How can a man fall into a reprobate state and still say Christ is his Master and Lord?"

In his new book, Pippin explores this profound question, one which Bible scholars have pondered for two millennia: Can a Christian lose his or her salvation and, consequently, entrance into heaven?

In the book, Pippin delves into the topic of what it takes to be secure with Jesus. He shares his thoughts on eternal security and the impact on one's afterlife of living a life of sin after salvation.

Pippin's spiritual journey began at age 12 when he first accepted the Lord as his savior. Afterward, he was "on fire for Christ for about three years," but then fell away.

After recovering from substance abuse, immersion in the hip-hop culture and a life of sin, Pippin rededicated his life to Jesus in 2012. From careful study of Scripture, Pippin, now 31, began shaping and publicly voicing his views on whether heaven is achievable for all Christians.

In an interview with Charisma News, Pippin cited a number of Bible verses to support his views. The book contains more than 600 Bible verses.

Dispelling the notion that one can work their way to heaven, Pippin cites Isaiah 64:6, noting, "all our righteousness is as filthy rags."

"This is why Paul is so adamant about belief, belief, belief, because it is abiding belief, or continued belief, that is key," Pippin says. "It's not our works. We can't work our way to heaven."

Pippin also references the importance of obedience to God (Rom. 16:26) and following the Bible. Further, he cites Luke 6:46: "Why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and not do what I say?"

Pippin says, "I heard a popular saying, which has become popular in this lukewarm age: 'Everybody wants a savior, but nobody wants a Lord.' Nobody wants to go to hell, but then again nobody wants to obey God. But Jesus says, 'I'm your Lord.' He tells us what to do. We obey Him, not ourselves. We are not our own God.


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"My book basically says to abide in Him. The one word I can say is 'obedience' to describe the whole book. Be obedient. It's not a perfection kind of obedience. No man can be perfect. It's a brokenness that comes with salvation in Christ Jesus."

Pippin also tells the parable of the prodigal son, noting what the boy's father said in Luke 15:24: "For this son of mine was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found."

"It means when he left his father that he was considered dead and lost," Pippin says. "He wasn't considered his anymore. He was considered the world's—meaning if you live in the world you'll die with the world."

Finally, one of the most powerful verses he cites is Heb. 10:26-27: "For if we willfully continue to sin after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment and fiery indignation...."

In his analysis of this verse, Pippin understands that many believers "do backslide every once in a while."

"It's more about fully putting on the old man," Pippin says. "It's when a man loses his connection with God, when he loses that hatred for sin. Trust me, we sin every day. But if we lose that conviction, the Holy Spirit conviction, then I believe the man is in great need of repentance.

"How can God minister—meaning live inside of you, be convicting you and be your Lord—if you don't hear His voice? Jesus says, 'My sheep hear My voice.' People think Jesus took up the cross for us. That's not what He said. He said, 'Take up your cross and follow Me.' Deny the world. Deny yourself. Deny everything for Me. He told the rich young ruler to give away all his treasure, to give it to the poor—meaning have a heart."

Pippin says he understands that no one can be perfect, but too few believers today make a real effort to strive toward holiness—succumbing to the world's temptations.

"Like I said, it's not perfectionism," Pippin says. "I'd be a hypocrite to say that. It's abiding in Christ. It's struggling with sin. Don't just fall into the world's temptations and think your eternal destiny is assured. We all sin before God. Follow the example of Paul. At the end of his life, he said that he had kept the faith, meaning he didn't lose it. That's what it is. It's being broken for Christ, sacrificing for Christ."

Pippin recognizes that all believers will continue to sin, but God calls on us to fight against sin.

"It's a very difficult thing not to sin—trying to live a perfect life," Pippin says. "The answer is to walk in the Spirit, study the Bible everyday, do your best, feed the poor, have a heart and pray constantly. Be not lukewarm. Jesus says in Revelation 3:16: 'So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spit you out of My mouth.' That means you are in His body and he spews you out of His body.

"We are going to sin, we're going to slip up. It's a guarantee, but fight against it. Go to God. Every time run to the cross. That's it. Struggle. Strive with Christ. He knows we're not going to be perfect. None of the apostles were perfect. They were men just like us, fighting against sin. But they did fight against it. Keep believing Christ will lead you."

this sounds really right. wonder if the book is available here.

I think you better try buy it online at Amazon and have it ship here

You know what is so hard about engaging you? You're slippery as an eel!

No wonder there are so many fellas in /k that label you as putar halim.

And all these while, i thought they hate Christians, hence their natural reaction towards you.



Strawman argument no.1 :

Nobody is puking on the precious blood of Christ. On the other hand, i'm puking on your easy believism teachings.

You hyper-grace preachers nauseate me.

So don't try to place words into my mouth

What most people get wrong is that Salvation is something granted to us when we stand before Jesus after having sanctified our lives.

The Bible says, purify yourselves, strive, run the race, bear fruit. Sanctification happens only when working in concert with the grace of God, which is power to walk righteously.

This easy believism only considers God's grace as unmerited favor.

They miss the power part. Paul says it best.

"If you by the Spirit, put to death the deeds of the flesh, you shall live." - Anazao is a Greek word meaning revive or live again.

We are to die to the flesh, not walk in it. We are to use the power of the Holy Spirit to kill our old nature.

This whole salvation process is about being transformed into the likeness of Jesus. And we won't make it if we look like Satan.

When the Bible says Jesus did it all on the cross, it means He gave us everything we need to be able to be saved.

The forgiveness of sins was accomplished and the empowerment to live a Holy life came when Jesus resurrected and ascended, because the Holy Spirit was sent.

All Jesus asks is that we obey the Spirit. You probably already understand these things, but I typed it out for the benefit of the whole conversation.





At least zanness, while he chooses to ignore the verses supporting my views, throws Grace & Salvation verses at me in bundles.

The Scriptures he "interpreted" do not teach that it is impossible for salvation to be lost. In & of themselves, they're not wrong.

As it happens with all defenders of false doctrines, he posted IRRELEVANT passages to give the illusion that he has support from the Bible.

BUT it's easy for me to understand where he's coming from. If he had wanted to understand the verses i posted, he would have realized them by now.




But you on the other hand, you will skip around the issue, refuse to respond to my verses on apostasy & backsliding, keep telling me they're not what i think they are,

& the worst part, you will somehow build up a straw man argument that i'm promoting a works salvation/legalism, self-righteousness, inference of partial Catholicism, which sin is bigger, etc.

Sometimes also leading me down the garden path & me, being silly enough to engage you in irrelevant topics, until i come to my senses once again, that you somehow

succeeded in diverting the subject at hand, & thus getting lost in translation.

On top of that, you claim to be innocent of all forms of slandering against me, when you're the one who used terms like "bersangka buruk towards you", " mis-interpreting the Bible like Mr Wong", saying what i believe in, as heresy, before i even started labelling you as a heretic, accusing me of using Bible verses to frighten ppl (i quoted Ephesians Chap 5 too, but you stopped at 4:32), etc.

In conclusion, you don't address the main issue at all!

Chinese say " jook jii sat " . You're trying to use technicalities to call me out.




Yes, we both agree that Christians must walk in Godliness after initial salvation. But that is not the crux of the matter. You keep throwing me off. That's the problem.

You think you can hide behind your, "i believe in OSAS, but we don't encourage sin". You still don't get it! That's why you're confused!

You don't even know where you stand. So i will put it in point form for you :


1) The doctrine of OSAS will cause people to not forsake sin, because the door will be left open to exploit it, by the very nature of the OSAS stance.

Your "theology" allows for salvation and immorality to coexist.



2) Plenty of scripture don't support OSAS. That means, a false doctrine is being propagated! Heresy!




My issues regarding OSAS are very straight-forward & uncomplicated. Yet you wouldn't dare answer them.

This is just one of them:


We all know David was saved BEFORE he became an adulterous murderer.

Did David REMAIN SAVED AFTER he became an adulterous murderer, BEFORE Nathan confronted him for his crimes about a year later?

was David STILL saved while UNREPENTANT AFTER his moral condition changed from godly to evil???????? answer the question. yes or no?





How about verses like :

It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and turned away from the holy commandment passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.” - 2nd Peter 2:22


"The soul that sinneth, it shall die" - Ezekiel 18:20

" he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation "
- Colossians 1:22-23

"but Christ is faithful over God's house as a son. And we are his house, if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope "- Hebrews 3:6

"And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." - Luke ?:??

"because Demas, in his love of this world, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica." - 2 Timothy 4:10

He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. - Romans 2 : 6 - 8




Any plainer than these?

Our salvation is safe in Jesus as long as we are in a saved relationship.

All of God's promises are conditional. God's love to us is unconditional, but His promises are conditional, meaning, if you do this, I will do this.

We must do our part.


I said this to you in a previous post, but you didn't address it, so here it is again :

Salvation is NOT eternal, only eternal life is eternal.

That's why it's called eternal life, not eternal salvation.

I think that gets to your problem right there.

You are using the terms "Eternal life" and "salvation" interchangeably which is the problem with you, regarding this false teaching of OSAS & that i can't get through to you. It's just sooooo hard! zanness you too!

In your brain it looks like this: "Eternal Life = Eternal Salvation.

Same thing, different name .

You need to stop doing that in your own mind if you have any hope of expanding your understanding of the scriptures.

Therefore let me make this clear: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ETERNAL SALVATION.

It is not a term the Bible ever uses. It appears no where.

If your belief is that once a name is in God's Book of life, it means it can never be blotted out, then I've got bad news for you:

" The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book." - Exodus 32:33






Lastly, it's very dangerous to think that you're being persecuted for your faith, because of all the "hoo-haa" in this thread the past 6 weeks, while all these while, your doctrine might not be accurate.

Have you ever considered that possibility?

Given my conviction, i on the other hand am the one feeling persecuted by a bunch of indoctrinated Calvinists.

penguin, pls dun go off tangent again. I'm speaking of those "fornicating unbelievers" reaction, in relation to those "fornicating believers" in pehkay's context.

Of course in the end, we will all pay for our transgressions & iniquity if we don't repent.

If you're pinning on me, you're pinning on me, there's no need for you to get roused up just to try to throw this off.
You're not pinning anything on me but you're blaming "MY" integrity? <---What is this? You cannot see this simple contradiction?
And You start playing the victim game.

I couldn't answer you...I remain quiet?

Really? When was the last time you actually answered my many questions that remain unanswered?

Here it is again and these are some of the verses that talks about Eternal Salvation.

Why do you need God to condemn you if you're inline with walking with God's spirit? Romans 8:1? Duh?
Why do you need God to keep you safe from being plucked out of his hand, if you are obedient? Double Duh? (Citing obedience is the key condition of not losing salvation?) (John 10:28)

Can you answer that?

1) First of all I don't start off at OSAS. I start at where Christ is. When a person understand how and where the power of sin loses it's grip, that is when the believer will see Eternal Salvation, He can't lose it.
The very reason why you don't even know if you will be saved is simply because you depend on your performance. Scripture tells very clearly Salvation is by Grace "APART" from yourselves. You are putting "yourselves" into the equation. You contradict scripture, THAT is heresy.

I think I've mentioned a million times but you just cannot see this. You are afraid of trusting in Christ being the Savior, you need a part of yourself to be the savor.


2) King David belongs to the Old Covenant, in case you haven't notice. All that you're fighting for.....are OLD COVENANT argument...from the very beginning. All the warning verses you put forth, you're arguing with Old Covenant Mindset.

2nd Peter 2:22 is in reference to False Teachers and many times over they deny Christ. That is the context. What has it got to do with losing Salvation?
Ezekiel 18:20 is under the Old Covenant. You need to adhere to God's Law for justification. Your point is moot.
Colossians 1:22-23 supports what we preached....As long as we continue in our Faith. Christ is the one who made the way possible...Easy Believism? Take it up with God if you have problem with this.

I can go on and on...but what is the point? You're not hearing.

I don't see how or where the verses that you gave so far discredit anything. Really. It's just going round in circles..partly some of the verses that you throw.....I half suspect you pluck it from some Anti-OSAS website without even reading through it. (Colossians 1:22-23 is one fine example)

Lastly... I'm not throwing you off. I know what is sanctified and obedient lifestyle, I do, I came from where you were...the doctrines you subscribe to. But today..... how to arrive there, is where I differ from you.
You believe in strong emphasis of obedience...I believe it's by grace.

Just to prove the point where I don't believe what u subscribe to has really worked....I just need to ask you this.

Have you been delivered from the bondage of pornography based on the theology you've practiced? It would honor me n everyone else to answer this honestly.

You believe in obedience right?

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Feb 22 2018, 09:57 PM

Question: "What is Marcionism?"

Answer: Marcionism was a religious movement based on the teachings of the 2nd-century heretic Marcion of Sinope. While none of Marcion’s writings have survived to the present, we know of his teachings through several early Christian writers including Justin Martyr (AD 100—165), Irenaeus of Lyons (AD 130—200) and Hippolytus (AD 170—235). These men combatted Marcion in defense of the truth.
Marcion held to many errant views, but he is primarily known for his belief that the Old Testament Scriptures were not authoritative for a Christian. He denied that the God of the Old Testament was the same God presented in the New Testament. For Marcion, Jesus was the Son of the God of the New Testament but not the Son of the deity described in the Hebrew Scriptures. The deities of the Old and New Testaments were, from Marcion’s perspective, literally two different gods. Marcion did not deny the existence of the god of the Old Testament (what he referred to as a Demiurge). He simply classified this god as a secondary deity, one that was inferior to the supreme God revealed in Jesus.

Marcion held that Jesus was the only revelation of the Supreme God but that Jesus should not be seen as having fulfilled Old Testament messianic prophecies. Rather, Marcion saw the prophecies as predicting a yet-to-come earthly savior of the Jewish nation. What Marcion was endorsing was a radical discontinuity between Old Testament Judaism and the message of Jesus and the apostle Paul. Marcion also affirmed a form of Docetism, a view that Jesus was not truly a man but only appeared to be human. This in spite of the clarity of verses such as John 1:14 and 1 John 4:1–3, which speak plainly of Jesus’ true humanity.

After being expelled from the church in Rome in AD 144 for his unorthodox teachings, Marcion formed several of his own churches, many of which retained a church government similar to the orthodox Christian churches of the time. From there, Marcion’s views began to spread. Given Marcion’s complete separation of the God of the Hebrew Bible from the God revealed in Jesus, it should be no surprise that he also rejected the authenticity of many New Testament documents. Any apostolic writing that did not comport with his theories was eliminated until all that remained of his collection of authoritative books were ten of Paul’s letters (minus 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus) and a highly edited version of the Gospel of Luke. Marcion saw Paul as the only legitimate apostle, but even Paul’s writings suffered under Marcion’s scalpel. Any passage that identified the God of the Old Testament with the Father of Jesus was removed. While it is true that most New Testament books were recognized as Scripture from a very early date, it is likely that Marcion’s truncated canon forced the church to more precisely list which books carried apostolic authority.

Marcionism was one of the earliest rivals to the Christian church. The lesson to be learned from Marcionism is that we have no right to act as editor of the God’s Word, but we must accept and believe the “whole counsel of God” (Acts 20:27) and “contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people” (Jude 1:3).

must quote this before you edit it

Brother pehkay I'm confused over something:

1 Cor. 3:15 "If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

1 Cor 5 indicates that a brother who is living in fornication will still be saved. Even such a sinful, defeated believer will still be saved. But in chapter 6 we are told that fornicators will not inherit the kingdom of God. This means that a fornicator cannot enjoy or inherit the kingdom of the heavens as a reward.

The three portions of the Bible, 1 Corinthians 6, Ephesians 5, and Galatians 5 tell us basically the same thing: you may be a saved person, but if you are still living in sin and filthiness, you will not inherit the kingdom of God. You will have no share in the manifestation of the kingdom of the heavens, because you are not qualified.

What's the difference between the manifestation of the kingdom and salvation? I thought it's the same?

Like, can go to heaven but cannot join... isn't that the same as not going to heaven?

This post has been edited by Sophiera: Feb 22 2018, 11:19 PM

Good!

So you answered my question on David that it is under the Old Covenant & it's not applicable to us .

Although i don't agree with you . . . . . .

I wonder what David will say to Uriah when they meet in heaven one day



"Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me. Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me." - Psalm 51:11


Did David pen the above then?





And because you answered my question, i'm also going to answer your very hard question :


I was finally delivered from the bondage of pornography (just like you) only after i stopped believing in OSAS! Amazing isn't it?

I believed in OSAS for 30+ years! I held on sooo hard because my church leaders couldn't be wrong!

Of all the sins of the eyes, sins of the flesh, pride of life, porn was the chink in my armour.

All these while, the doctrine of OSAS had no power on me to change! I would sin, repent, sin, regret, wat the heck repent again, try hard, fail again, pray some more & there was no change. Stiff-necked like the Israelites

Only when God made me realize that i was lulled into the danger of "Once Saved Always Saved" & that there was a very real possibility, that i could be thrown in the Lake of Fire with the hypocrites, did my shackles finally fall off.

Instant deliverance!

"The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?" - Jeremiah 17:9

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." - Galatians 6:7

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28


In short, once i got my doctrine straightened out, God whooped the fire out of me!!!

Not one video clip, not even 1 picture, from then on. And it has been a looooong time, but the temptation is always there until we get our resurrection bodies. We all accept that.

How we choose to behave & respond is entirely up to us.

Christian conduct is actually very, very important. Otherwise our faith means nothing!


Did i believe in Jesus Christ in all those years? You bet! I went to church too. Started from Sunday School. Then Youth group. I read my Bible & prayed too. Participated in ministry work.

Did the HS prompt me, tug my heart & did i ever had assurance of my Faith during all that time? Yup! I experienced all of those things. He was as real to me as my physical Father.

So don't go telling me that i wasn't saved to begin with & was a false convert all that time! It is invalid! Why? Because, now listen carefully, i GOT CHASTISED!! I reserve the right to specifically say what it was.

Chastisement doesn't mean we will repent & return! That is one point that most people fail to see!

It got so bad for me that i couldn't differentiate whether it was chastisement or trials & tribulations of the Christian life.

So don't quote me the verse , "Oh! If you truly are His son, he will chastise those who belong to Him". Well yeah, but will you respond positively or negatively?

Some folks don't even return after being severely chastised! So just think about that!



I can tell you that the OSAS teaching, that we will fall out of fellowship with God when we sin, but will still get to go to heaven, is FALSE doctrine!

Not hearing God's voice anymore, when you pray means your soul is in spiritual danger. You're in danger until you repent again wholeheartedly.

Dying in that state will send you to hell if you were to die at that moment in time. God made that point very clear to me!

I too was blind & discounted all those verses about backsliding, apostasy, sin after salvation, as if those verses are not meant for the believer, or the dispensation of Grace, or New Covenant, and all that. Not applicable to me.

Hrmmph! I'm saved. Can't be unsaved.

But something just didn't sit right in my spirit over those years.



Do you know that when God finally dealt with me, my Christian walk became much more real! He made me realize that if i wasn't obedient, believing in Him meant nothing!

After i stopped believing in OSAS, God worked in my personal life tremendously. More answered prayers. I know they weren't random events because a very high percentage of my prayers got answered.

Some very quickly! Too high a hit rate to not be supernatural. I also heard His little voice more clearly whenever i prayed. You know that it is divine direction & not yourself talking to errrm yourself.

Conviction of heart was stronger. Everything felt so real! Even after dropping the OSAS doctrine, i still had assurance of Salvation! Why? Because my conscience was clear!

That's why the Bible says, "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" - 2 Corinthians 13:5

"And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men." - Acts 24:16

I can honestly say at this point, that a person has absolutely no right to have the Assurance of Salvation, if they're not walking right with God! And they deserve to feel that way!

Salvation is no longer to be taken for granted if you don't believe in OSAS.




Anyway, to continue, I got spooked because i could feel Him working in my life more consistently.

He would give me confirmation after confirmation.

Among other things, there were many times when i was reading articles, scripture, etc, while listening to messages online, and while i was reading a certain verse, & within 3 seconds, the preacher would mention the exact same verse! Amazing! What are the odds? Too coincidental to be random.

When the HS teaches, & you're willing to learn, things happen.

Once you drop the stupid concept of "Once Saved Always Saved", you will fight sin & temptation with all your might. Why? Because there is now a very real fear of the Lord!

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is insight." - Proverbs 9:10

The flesh fights so much harder! And the spirit man will pray, pray & seekfor help & for cleansing! God will shine His torchlight in your heart bringing down strongholds.

Christianity became more real! You strive for Holiness for the Bible says, "without holiness, no one will see the Lord"


I know your Christian experiential ...errr.....i mean experience could have differed from mine. That is why you couldn't relate. The Law didn't bog me down!

On the contrary, it FREED me! Some of us are just more disobedient & the HS will have to deal with us with other methods.

I can tell you that if walking Holy is not possible, God wouldn't have said, "No one, Lord,” she answered. “Then neither do I condemn you, Jesus declared. “Now” go and sin no more." - John 8:11

"But just as He who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do, for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.” Since you call on a Father who judges each man’s work impartially, live your lives in reverent fear during your temporary stay on earth.…" - 1 Peter 1:15-17



Finally, pornography falls under the category of sexual immorality. Whether you call yourself a Christian or unbeliever, the rules apply:

"Outside are the dogs gand sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood."

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God."






"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your Heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive yours." - Matthew 6:15

Just a random verse from the Bible, the above shows it's possible to lose our salvation. Let me reiterate, salvation is conditional. We must overcome & endure.

OSAS proponents butcher the Bible so badly, that it will mess with your head.

Kayyy, too long, goodnite








errmmm, i'm asking him the exact same thing. Didn't you see my reply to him? Oh, right, most will skip my posts because i'm different. Wokehhh

Anyway, I think it has got something to do with outer darkness & the Millennium Kingdom. Just a guess.

Let's await his reply patiently shall we

Methodists are followers of Arminism.

Since shioks mentioned Methodist


There you go


Do United Methodists believe “once saved, always saved” or can we “lose our salvation”?

A short, but very incomplete answer, is that our Church teaches we can end up "losing" the salvation God has begun in us, and the consequence of this in the age to come is our eternal destruction in Hell. God freely grants us new birth and initiates us into the body of Christ in baptism. The profession of our faith and growth in holiness are necessary for God's saving grace to continue its work in us, and both of these are things we must do for our love to be genuine and not compelled. We thus remain free to resist God's grace, to revert to spiritual torpor, and possibly experience spiritual death and Hell as its consequence.

I call this a very incomplete answer because it does not actually answer the question in the way it is usually framed, or the meaning of the terms in that framing.

There are several problems with the question itself from the perspective of Wesleyan and Arminian theology. Above all, "once saved, always saved" is simply not part of our theological vocabulary or world-view. It is a kind of Americanized short-hand for the fifth of the core theological principles of Calvinist theology (perseverance of the saints) articulated by the Synod of Dort (1618-1619). Those principles are often summarized in English under the acronym TULIP. They are:

Total Depravity:
Humankind has been utterly ruined by the Fall to the point that there is no good and no possibility for redemption anywhere in us. We merit and can merit nothing but wrath and destruction. This means that only a Sovereign God acting in Sovereignty can deliver us from an eternal destiny in Hell. There is absolutely nothing we can do ourselves to contribute to or take away from God's activity to save us.

Unconditional Election:
As such, God's decision to save us can be and is based on no conditions we can or could ever generate. God has chosen, based on God's own criteria, whom to save and whom not to save, long before we were ever born.

Limited Atonement:
God created the means to deliver us from the merited consequences of our total depravity through the death of Jesus, his Son, on the cross. On the cross, Jesus suffered the consequences of God's just wrath and judgment on behalf of all whom God had elected for salvation, but only for these.

Irresistible Grace: Just as there is nothing humanity can to do change our depraved state, there is also nothing those who have been elect can do to resist the gracious initiative and power of God to bring them to salvation through what God had accomplished for them in the atonement.

Perseverance of the Saints: The result of all the above is that those whom God has elected to salvation and acted to save in the atonement and in the ongoing and irresistible work of the Spirit cannot but actually "persevere unto the end," that is, those who are elect cannot help but be faithful and thus experience the promised salvation.

To be sure, not everyone who has followed a "generally" Calvinist theology has followed all "five points" of the Synod of Dort. Perhaps the majority of Calvinists in the United States have adopted a modified version of this account of God's saving activity, most frequently by eliminating, de-emphasizing, or modifying "double predestination" (that is, that God had ordained both who would be saved and who would be damned), limited atonement (emphasizing that Christ had died for all, and that all thus potentially could be saved), and irresistible grace (opting for some limited role for free will).

Often, too, in making these accommodations, the understanding of salvation has been radically altered. In classic Calvinism, God saves and our participation is entirely in God's control, not in ours if at all. There is thus simply no way that one can speak coherently in such a framework of anyone either "gaining" or "losing" salvation, because salvation is simply not ours to possess or control in any way. We can in a very real sense neither gain nor lose it. But in many modified forms, salvation is indeed something we can possess by agreeing to or, more often, verbally confessing or offering prayers that confess certain beliefs at some point in our lives. If one has ever said such words, one is saved now and always.

The theology of John Wesley, however, follows more closely a different strand of theology in the Western and the Orthodox (Eastern) tradition that understands salvation is both something God does and in which we cooperate, though not as equals by any means. Only God can initiate salvation. But only by our ongoing, living relationship with God through faith can God's saving intention be fully realized in our lives.

John Wesley particularly identified his understanding of salvation with the theology and writings of the seventeenth century Dutch theologian, Jacob Arminius, against whose teaching the Synod of Dort was called and its Canons (the TULIP principles described above) were articulated. While Arminius was Reformed, he was far more convinced by the mainstream Roman Catholic theology which spoke of human free will and limited human cooperation in salvation, dissenting strongly from what was already becoming and later would become the standard of Reformed theology in his country.

Arminius, like Calvin and all of classical Christianity, affirmed that there is nothing humans can do to initiate salvation. Only God can do this, and God does so unconditionally, and for all, not just a limited number of the pre-selected. Christ's saving activity in his life, death and resurrection was thus potentially effective for all. Only faith, which is an exercise of our will, under the influence of divine grace, is required of us. Such faith and responsiveness to God grace, revealed in our works, but not caused by them, keeps us "in grace." This means it is possible for us to "fall from grace," a phrase he borrows from verses in Hebrews 6 and 10, by not sustaining our faith. A lapse in our works can be a sign, but again is not a cause, of such a fall from grace. The consequences, if our error is not corrected, can be spiritual death and eternity in Hell.

Though perhaps the most popular publication John Wesley produced during his lifetime was called "The Arminian," he sharply disagreed with Arminius on one point. Arminius had concluded that if a person had fallen from grace and into a state of spiritual death after having had an experience of conversion (whether that was understood to have occurred through baptism or to be heightened or awakened in a personal experience or affirmation later in life) there was no further hope for salvation. Wesley rejected this. Both experience and scripture told him otherwise. He addressed this at greatest length in his sermon, "A Call to Backsliders."

In this sermon Wesley tackles the Arminian argument on the grounds of both scripture and experience.

Wesley notes that the penalty of eternal separation from God with no hope of return applies in scripture only in two cases-either, as in Hebrews 6 and 10, to persons who willfully, publically and explicitly reject Jesus as Savior after having confessed him, or, as in the gospels, to those who blaspheme against the Holy Spirit by declaring that the works of Jesus were the works of the Evil one. He then turns the question to his hearers: "Now, which of you has thus fallen away? Which of you has thus 'crucified the Son of God afresh?' Not one: Nor has one of you thus 'put him to an open shame.'" The penalty of there being no more sacrifice for sins thus cannot apply to the vast majority of those who have indeed fallen into spiritual decline, and perhaps close to or even into spiritual death, but have not in fact committed these atrocities.

The first paragraph of Wesley's argument from experience is worth repeating in its entirely (emphasis added). Acting as his own interviewer, Wesley writes:

Do you know, have you seen, any instance of persons who found redemption in the blood of Jesus, and afterwards fell away, and yet were restored, -- 'renewed again to repentance?' " Yea, verily; and not one, or an hundred only, but, I am persuaded, several thousands. In every place where the arm of the Lord has been revealed, and many sinners converted to God, there are several found who "turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them." For a great part of these "it had been better never to have known the way of righteousness." It only increases their damnation, seeing they die in their sins. But others there are who "look unto him they have pierced, and mourn," refusing to be comforted. And, sooner or later, he surely lifts up the light of his countenance upon them; he strengthens the hands that hang down, and confirms the feeble knees; he teaches them again to say, "My soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit rejoiceth in God my Saviour." Innumerable are the instances of this kind, of those who had fallen, but now stand upright. Indeed, it is so far from being an uncommon thing for a believer to fall and be restored, that it is rather uncommon to find any believers who are not conscious of having been backsliders from God, in a higher or lower degree, and perhaps more than once, before they were established in faith.

Does this mean that it is impossible for persons to fall so far from grace once received that they will never end up in Hell? By no means. Hell is surely the potential destination for all who are not living into "that holiness without which no one can see God" (Hebrews 12:14, a phrase frequently quoted in the sermons and journals of John Wesley). His point is that despite whatever the condition of our souls may be, God is always calling, always wooing, always pleading, and always working and leaving the way open for our faith to be renewed, our hearts to be quickened by grace, and our souls to be brought to life and health again.

In our Wesleyan-Arminian theology, as in all mainstream Christian theology, salvation still isn't ours to possess. It is always and only God who saves. In that sense we cannot "lose" salvation. But we can "fall away" from it. Or to use another metaphor, we can move so far from the saving streams of God's love and power that we parch and spiritually die. The consistent focus of Wesley's teaching, however, is far less the warning about the possibility of such death and thus ultimately Hell (though he does not shrink from offering such warnings upon occasion, even as noted in the quote above), but rather upon the consistent, unfailing grace of the God revealed in Scripture and in the person of Jesus Christ, the God who is abounding in mercy and steadfast love.

Once saved, always saved? No. We're not Calvinists. We don't believe God has orchestrated the world and the universe to make that the necessary outcome for some limited number of the pre-selected. And we're not reducing salvation to a propositional transaction, as some forms of American Protestant proclamation has done, so that once we believe and say certain things, no matter what else happens, we "have" salvation and can never "lose" it.

Perhaps the better phrase, though one Wesley himself did not use, would be one that starts where Calvin starts-not with us (as once saved, always saved often seems to do), but with God. "God is out to save us, one and all." Though we have no faith we can articulate, God is out to save us, one and all. Though our faith may grow dim and our works disorderly, God is out to save us, one and all. Though we may lose our way and do terrible things to others, God is out to save us, one and all. And though for some God's efforts to save may still leave them in spiritual death and Hell, God is out to save us, one and all.

Once saved, always saved? No. But always, always called to the fullness of God's salvation. And always, always loved.

The Rev. Taylor Burton-Edwards is Director of Worship Resources with the General Board of Discipleship of the United Methodist Church, and an elder in the North Indiana Conference.

Once again,

You are misquoting the Bible my friend..

Demas for instance.. Demas left the ministry sadly.. but it does not mean he's unsaved.

To your benefit, the entire chapter was preaching about fighting the good fight.. none here was about salvation.. but merely crowns of righteousness. 2 Timothy 4:6-8

Sorry Do let me know which verse i've ignored because as far as i remember, chronologically, i've answered and explained every single verse that you state as an evidence of your 'lost salvation' scenario..

apologies.

and what I remember clearly is i've given you clear verses to support every single thing i've said regarding your verses.. may it be correlated verses or to any fact or statement being mentioned..

this response is not in particular to just you but to anyone else.. it is my way that if I have an opinion, a believe, or a stand, there must be multiple Bible verses that said so..

To be fair, the texts here are long.. you might not have realized I answered to you.. but it would be unfair to accuse so..

But rather, since now you've mentioned.. i do not recall you explaining any of my verses...

This post has been edited by zanness: Feb 23 2018, 07:48 AM

Thanks for your answer.

No. What happened to David is not simply concluded it doesn't apply to us. What happened to David works within the covenant God cuts under the OT. That is how it was. If you and I lived under that dispensation then ALL that you've said and argued for is something I would have agreed because that was the agreement between God and his people.

Now for my Part.

Yes I was delivered but I didn't force it because I feared hell or anything like that. The desire just left......without 1 inch of my effort. I know it's the HS...it cannot be me. Because if it was "me" it wouldn't have lasted.

You lived 30+ years of your life, I lived more than 40+ years of my life.

And I've come to conclude (actually I've contemplated on this before you came into the scene) back in 2017....there is a place for Grace and there is a place for Hard preaching as to what you subscribe to.

Funny thing is...what you said about more answered prayers is the same thing that happened to me. I see Father God responded far more consistent when I subscribe to his of Grace (I call it hyper grace) as compared to subscribing to what you subscribe to now. I don't believe in all these Hard Repentance.

Now the thing is....You had it the hard way....I had it the easier way. You will arrive where I arrive just that we will arrive Faster because God is the one who works in our life ..not us.

Are both wrong that it doesn't work? Not really. Because the Bible says if you want to live by the Law, you have to live up to it ALL the way, break one is as good as breaking ALL of them and it's under a curse. (Read Galatians 3) The curse is...you will always have it the hard way and you will never be in a place of peace. That is why you don't know if you will be saved at the end of your life. You only hope so. You will always struggle gritting your teeth. Will it work? Yes God's Law works but it is very very hard. The moment you slipped (And you will one day sooner or later) ...what happened in that moment you falled from God, you passed on? You think all your effort in upholding God's Law would matter? Remember...No one can be righteous in their own strength...God consider it as filthy rags. What will happen to you then?

You get the idea? That is the difference.

Truth is, Why God work in your life is because...along the way you believed, though you think your performance mattered (it does not). You didn't know that and you think your hard repentance is the key.

You cannot say GRACE or OSAS is heresy because I lived and subscribe to it. I know the things God has moved or changed in my life and my family's life. It is astounding I know it's God. I have people in my family who are against Christianity but today they are praying and worshipping with me in Church. IF what I believed in is Heresy...God would have not answered me...No? Or you want to tell me it's the devil who saved my family to Christ?


ps: you still haven't answered my 2 primary questions.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Feb 23 2018, 08:40 AM

easy believism? let's hear it from the man, billy Graham


Q&A: Billy Graham's Warning Against an Epidemic of 'Easy Believism'

The evangelist speaks to CT on obedience, Heaven and Hell, and his My Hope campaign.

INTERVIEW WITH CHRISTIANITY TODAY | OCTOBER 15, 2013

Image: Kevork Djansezian / AP

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In the heydey of his crusade ministry, Billy Graham would travel across the globe to preach to stadium-sized audiences. Now, though confined to his home in the mountains of western North Carolina, the mass evangelist is still able, using modern technology, to continue proclaiming the gospel. November marks the beginning of the ";My Hope America with Billy Graham,"; campaign, a video evangelism course designed for individual and small group use. In conjunction with the launch of My Hope America, Graham has released what may be his final book, The Reason for My Hope: Salvation. CT asked Graham about his thoughts on the present state of Christian belief and his confidence, amidst theological and cultural confusion, in the core gospel message.

Do you call yourself an evangelical, or a Christian, first? Why?

What really matters is how God sees me. He isn't concerned with labels; he is concerned about the state of man's soul. The Bible tells me that I am first a sinner. ";For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"; (Rom. 3:23). But because of the saving grace Jesus has extended to me, and my repentance of sin, I am his child—having been saved by the blood of my Savior on the cross. At that moment, I entered into a life-changing relationship with him. Those who read The Reason for My Hope will see clearly from Scripture how to be saved and how to live the Christian life.

Jesus Christ is my Lord and Master. I have repented of my sin, turned my life over to Christ, and seek daily to obey his Holy Word. I am his follower. Before my conversion on November 1, 1934, which I tell of in the book, I always thought myself a Christian. It wasn't until I was confronted and convicted of my sin that I realized that Christ makes a difference in the lives of those who not only claim his name but obey his Word. If there is no change in a person's life, he or she must question whether or not they possess the salvation that the gospel proclaims. Many who go to church have not had a life-changing transformation in Christ. Those outside the church expect followers of Christ to live differently, yet today many in church are chasing after the world—not to win them, but to be like them. This is very dangerous and the Bible gives account to the tragic result.

In the New Testament, when people heard the truth Jesus taught and received his glorious gift of forgiveness and hope for eternal life in Heaven, others who observed the change in their lives called them Christians—Christ followers (Acts 11:26). Just as Jesus came willingly to rescue mankind from sin, I willingly serve him and seek to glorify him with my life because I am a child of the King. Being called a Christian should identify us with the demands Christ makes on those who belong to him. He tells us to count the cost of following him.


My preaching is that of an evangelist and I wholeheartedly believe in the fundamental teaching of the Holy Scriptures. This is the foundation of my book. My hope is that people will read it. My desire is that readers will comprehend the privilege and responsibility of living the Christian life. When Jesus becomes our Master we set aside our way and walk his way. It is not always easy but enormously productive and challenging, because those who follow him become shining lights in a very dark world. This is why the Christian has hope. The reason I have hope for the world is because Christ died for the whole world and is calling the lost and weary to come to him. Jesus said he had ";come to seek and to save that which was lost"; (Luke 19:10).

Why, according to the title of your book, is salvation the reason for your hope?

As I approached my 95th birthday, I was burdened to write a book that addressed the epidemic of ";easy believism."; There is a mindset today that if people believe in God and do good works they are going to Heaven. But there are many questions that must be answered. There are two basic needs that all people have: the need for hope and the need for salvation. It should not be surprising if people believe easily in a God who makes no demands, but this is not the God of the Bible. Satan has cleverly misled people by whispering that they can believe in Jesus Christ without being changed, but this is the Devil's lie. To those who say you can have Christ without giving anything up, Satan is deceiving you. While I am no longer able to stand in the pulpit and deliver a sermon from the Bible, God laid on my heart a burning desire to put this message in book form—a message that resonates within me every time I switch on the news. When I visit with people from all walks of life the question is asked, ";What is happening in the world?";

Many politicians and government leaders have asked me this question. Countless students on university campuses have begged to hear the truth. I have always explained that Almighty God is the architect of earth, the Creator of mankind, and has fashioned the soul. He is the Beginning and the End and the Giver and Finisher of Faith. All answers lie within the revealed Word of God. Salvation is God's gift to the world, but the gift of God's love and forgiveness must be accepted on his terms—not ours. Gifts are never forced; they are offered and received. Many today say that the idea of redemption is antiquated. I write in the book about Hollywood, and even professional football, loving stories of redemption. Why? A film critic stated that people want to overcome what troubles them from within. Christ is the only source that can remove the despair within our hearts. This is the reason for my hope, that people everywhere will open their hearts to Christ's salvation—the redemptive gift that offers peace and the certainty of eternal life.

Why do you think God has seen fit to give you additional time on earth before calling you home?

Traveling around the world and preaching for over 70 years did not give much time for reflection. But no matter where I was in the world when I came home, Ruth was always here waiting. We enjoyed those moments, and she and I always found time with the Lord together, rejoicing with answers to prayer. I miss that fellowship with her. She was a prayer warrior and loved to sit and talk about the Bible. She's been in Heaven six years now and I believe the Lord has given me this season of life to consider all that is still left to do and to be faithful to the message of Christ while I still have breath. Whether we preach from a pulpit or sit in quiet contemplation, there is always much more to learn as we seek the face of the Lord. Looking back there are times I was not as strong as I should have been, but my heart and my ministry have always been rooted in God's Word. The message I preach is anchored on what ";the Bible says.";

I try to spend my days encouraging others to serve Jesus Christ wholeheartedly, praying for those who labor in his name, and asking that many more answer God's call to preach the gospel truth, declaring what the Bible says. It is truth. His word is life.

How did you select the topics and illustrations that speak so specifically to people's needs?

This book addresses many issues and concerns that weigh heavy on my heart, and while I have written over 30 books, I believe this book focuses on matters that are on the minds of people everywhere. There are so many religions in the world, and I have never witnessed as much confusion as there is today about where to find truth. We have people preaching that God is a God of love, not of wrath. We have people proclaiming that Heaven is real but Hell is only a figment of imagination. As research was done for this book, my heart ached to hear story after story of people bragging that Hell will be one continuous happy hour; high profile comedians joke that they are happy to know they will one day go there.

This book is written to sound a warning—a loving warning from Heaven—that Heaven is created for those who humble themselves before God and Hell is created for Satan and those who serve him. Christ came to turn mankind away from the hold Satan wants to have in people's lives. Jesus Christ is the answer for the world—he is the anchor of the soul—he is the God of hope that came in human form to rescue us from Satan's grip. A seminary professor once made a profound statement to his students: ";Never preach Hell without tears in your eyes."; My message is to proclaim that we are all sinners in need of a Savior and ask each one this question: Have you ever been saved?

In your book you pose the question: Who would refuse rescue from tragedy? Why is this?

It seems unreasonable that a human being would refuse rescue from a sinking ship, but people actually have because they didn't really believe they would drown. Likewise, the world is full of people who do not believe dying in their sin will send them to Hell, so they refuse to be rescued by way of the Cross of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I have known many intriguing people and write about some in the book, like American war hero Louis Zamperini, who was rescued out of the Pacific Ocean only to be captured by the enemy during World War II. But he found out later that a greater enemy was master of his soul, and he wasn't willing to be rescued from alcoholism until he came face-to-face with the enemy and was rescued by the saving love of God.

Just as I began working on the book, the Costa Concordia went down off the coast of Italy. Such terror that strikes human hearts is indescribable. Suddenly people begin to realize that the good life cannot save. They cry out to be rescued but the people around them are also in despair, unable to help. Where does one turn? This is the state of our world, and the only One who can save is the One who was born for that sole purpose, as the Christmas story tells us. The Virgin Mary will bring forth a Son conceived of the Holy Spirit, and his name will be Jesus, ";for He will save His people from their sins"; (Matt. 1:21).

The Bible is still the best-selling book of all time, yet people refuse to believe. They refuse to accept the greatest gift that has ever been offered to mankind. Why? Because it calls for the confession of sin and the complete surrender of one's selfish ways. It calls for repentance of sin against God. Many would prefer to live it up for a short time on earth in hope that there is no Hell to suffer in the afterlife. They believe Satan's lie that there is no life after death. But Jesus spoke of Hell much more than he spoke of Heaven. This is why I have spent my life calling out to the people of the world: Come to Jesus just as you are, and he will receive you and strengthen you each step of the way.

You write that ";Sin is in."; What do you mean by that?

In the 21st-century society, people have given sin a makeover, calling sin a mistake. God calls it iniquity. It is a disease of the soul. Society generally wants to campaign against disease, raise money to eradicate it. But the disease of sin is celebrated and glorified by society and especially in the pop culture of the day, ignoring the toll it takes in the physical, emotional, and spiritual realms. Society may boast that ";sin is in,"; but the truth is that sin is in you, me, and everyone.

Secular media carry stories frequently about men and women who commit horrific crimes, and mankind demands that a penalty be paid. Yet, mankind resents God demanding that a penalty be paid for sins committed against Creator God. God shows Himself the loving Father that he is by sending his own sacrifice, his only Son, to die in man's place, paying the penalty for the sin that the Bible says ";easily ensnares us"; (Heb. 12:1). Many people who transgress God's laws resent their sin being judged by a righteous God. We reject the idea of our own transgressions, but when it comes to transgressions as in common sports language, we accept the rules; in fact, we love them. If we are rooting for our team and the opposing team commits a transgression, we cheer. This is what is in the heart of man, but I can assure you that God does not cheer from the sidelines when we go out of the bounds of his law and commit transgressions (sins) against him. His heart is grieved. Sin is poison and destroys. Salvation is the antidote that purifies.

Society today is obsessed with technology, something you write about in detail. Is there a biblical view of technology?

The Bible declares that ";there is nothing new under the sun"; (Ecc. 1:9). Nothing surprises God. He enables his creation to tap into the resources he has given to us on earth. We have certainly watched the plethora of communication capabilities explode as we moved into the 21st century. I have always loved the art of communication, and there is no question that my preaching ministry benefitted greatly by utilizing amplification and magnification in arenas and stadiums around the world. Television and radio enabled the gospel to reach far corners of the earth, as the Bible predicted. But while God allows blessing to come from such grand inventions like wireless and mobile devices, Satan has also used technology to cleverly advance his deception. There are generations today that take pride in their ability to communicate instantly through Facebook or Twitter but are unable to communicate face-to-face. People are finding solace sitting in front of computer screens willing to talk to total strangers about anything and everything through electronic communication, but don't believe God could ever hear their cries of loneliness, grief, and pain.

A Harvard University president once told me that what young people desire the most is ";to belong."; Multitudes are willing to belong to just about anything except God. The human race has always been on a quest for truth and acceptance, yet men and women are unwilling to accept the One who is the truth. Instead they are turning to a new fad—designer religion—faith blending, a little Christianity, a little Buddhism, and a little New Age. This is a trick of the Devil, who loves to mix some truth with his lies. The Bible warns about this and tells us that we must hold fast to truth and fight for the faith. ";In latter times some [will give] heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons…having their own consciences seared"; (1 Tim. 4:1-2).

But technology is a gift from God when it is used to proclaim the gospel. This is why I am excited about My Hope, an evangelistic program developed by our ministry that has been used around the world. Through every means of reliable communication, we are proclaiming the Good News that God loves sinners and calls men and women everywhere to repent and turn to him, receiving true hope that comes from God. I have been preparing for several months to deliver this message through My Hope America, a television special that will be seen in homes across the nation the week of my 95th birthday. I cannot think of anything I would rather do to celebrate another year of life than to proclaim God's truth. My prayer is that all Christians will open their homes to their family and neighbors who need Christ and tune in to see what God is doing in these days that may seem dark, yet are full of hope.

This is the message of the book, and it is the message of our upcoming television special this November. ";Hope and change"; has become a cliché in America the past several years. In the book I write about the disappointments Americans have experienced when hope and change promised by men failed. But there is no disappointment in the God of hope. The Bible says that it is in Jesus, God's Son, that the world can have hope and that the ";God of hope"; can fill us with joy and peace in believing this great truth through his power (Rom. 15:12-13).

Sixty years ago, you awoke in the middle of the night with a dream to start Christianity Today magazine. CT is still in circulation, now reaching millions of people along with a host of sister publications. Is that surprising and encouraging to you?

I give God thanks and all the glory for every avenue that carries his message into hearts and minds. Christianity Today has been kind to me and the ministry God has given to us. I am grateful that CT is supporting My Hope this fall. I appreciate the opportunity to share about this book that is so much on my heart.

It is always a joy to read articles that lift up Jesus Christ and point people to the cross, and I encourage the editors, writers, contributors, researchers, and the board of directors to always keep Christ at the center of everything. Let's honor him and him alone.

This post has been edited by desmond2020: Feb 23 2018, 08:51 AM

Unfortunately, no. Now, you know me before that I do not subscribe to matter of "going to heaven" but this is another topic in the past. After all, the New Jerusalem is coming down, it will be pretty lonely in the heaven.



In Galatians 5:21 Paul, referring to the works of the flesh, says, “Those who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” The inheritance of the kingdom of God refers to the enjoyment of the coming kingdom as a reward to the overcoming believers. It is not related to a believer’s salvation. Those believers who practice the works of the flesh listed in Galatians 5 will not inherit the coming kingdom as a reward.

In Ephesians 5:5b Paul speaks of a believer’s “inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.” The kingdom of Christ is the millennium (Rev. 20:4, 6; Matt. 16:28); it is also the kingdom of God (Matt. 13:41, 43). The believers have been regenerated into the kingdom of God (John 3:5) and in the church life, are living in the kingdom of God today (Rom. 14:17).

However, not all believers will participate in the millennium; only the overcoming ones will. The defeated believers will have no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God in the coming age.

It is righteous . The 1000 years millennium will either be a prize to overcoming believers or "summer school of outer darkness" to make us mature. Then in eternity, all will be fully the duplication of full expression of God on this earth.

The overcomers will enjoy it first i.e. the firstfruits. This is my goal today ... and it should be our goal.

It is interesting to note that this truth was present with the early church fathers.

The eminent church historian Philip Schaff writes,



Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Tertullian have also mentioned this. Justin, the greatest of the second-century apologists and the most prolific Christian writer:


"I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, [as] the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare. (Dialogue with Trypho)"

But to keep the story short, the first one who waver from it was Origen since he dislike it because of his tainted Gnostic view that the physical body, and the material world has no place in eternity. It is not easy for one avoid being entangled one from it.

After that, it went downhill .... this truth is almost gone and became the foundation of purgatory ...... hope yeeck didn't read this

This post has been edited by pehkay: Feb 23 2018, 12:33 PM

How could you say it went down hill when we have The Apolostic Church! Lol!

This post has been edited by shioks: Feb 23 2018, 12:32 PM

Don't like that .... then someone will say something and we will be in trouble

This post has been edited by pehkay: Feb 23 2018, 01:17 PM

That's why I seldom read the Bible but I did believe in God... no one told me about this when I accepted Christ until recently someone share with me this.
There's are tons and tons more of contradictions and here's I share a few.

Bible Inconsistencies - Bible Contradictions

John 1:1, 10:30 Jesus and God are one.
John 14:28 God is greater than Jesus.

John 3:17, 8:15, 12:47 Jesus does not judge.
John 5:22, 5:27-30, 9:39, Acts 10:42, 2nd Corinthians 5:10 Jesus does judge.

Exodus 34:6-7, Joshua 24:19, 1 Chronicles 16:34 God is faithful, holy and good.
Isaiah 45:6-7, Amos 3:6 God is responsible for evil.

Matthew 5:22 Anger by itself is a sin.
Ephesians 4:26 Anger is not necessarily a sin.

Matthew 5:17-19, Luke 16:17 Jesus did not come to abolish the law.
Ephesians 2:13-15, Hebrews 7:18-19 Jesus did abolish the law.

Matthew 1:16 Jacob was Joseph's father.
Luke 3:23 Heli was Joseph's father.

Joshua 11:20 God shows no mercy to some.
Luke 6:36, James 5:11 God is merciful.

Mathew 8:16, Luke 4:40 Jesus healed all that were sick.
Mark 1:32-34 Jesus healed many (but not all).