I'll try and make it as systematic as possible.

GRIEVING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT

Ephesians 4 is explaining an ideal characteristic of a born-again man, a Christian.


So on .. all the way to GRIEVING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Here's where your contradiction begins..

1) Ephesians 4:32 ,"And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you."
Your reply --> Why bother to not grieve the Holy Spirit since no matter how much we grieve Him, we can’t lose our salvation? Doesn’t make sense right?
If your reasoning of such is applied.. Why bother to not forgive when you can lose your salvation ?
Something wrong with that kind of reasoning.
You confuse yourself even further when clearly the same verse says 'sealed'.
Does it mean the Bible is not accurate? Where if you grieve the holy Spirit you are not going to be redeemed at the day of redemption?
Same reasoning la bro.. your confusion is on WHAT HAPPENS IF YOU GRIEVE THE HOLY SPIRIT..
but your confusion SHOULD NOT be replaced with a temporal answer it forfeits your salvation, because even that verse did not write so.. only your online articles and those speakers you hear from SAID so..


2) and when you quoted on Isaiah 63:10,
i got a few questions..
a) who are 'they' ? who is this 'them' ? in fact, my friend.. I seriously do not think you understand Isaiah 63:10 or how old testament verses are written.
When it is written, ...be their enemy, and he fought against them.. did you continue reading what it meant?

b) my friend, please always remember.. when you make reference to the old testament, be very clear..Who is God referring to? Why is God judging it? These are old testament times when it is so much stricter then. Like I said, even a thought of adultery is sin. Even being unclean in food or in hygiene will be struck down by lightning. Its entirely a different context differentiated by JESUS CHRIST which is why we are living in the age of grace. Back then they believed in


Death

I think if you read back, i've also explained about seeds in different soils, and sin unto death..
Both are also to brethens my friend..


Adding to faith
What you were trying to refer to is 2 Peter 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

I think if you read other parts of the Bible in New Testament, you will also realize adding is not increasing in quantity but rather adding in attributes.

Erm, i think i did explain a whole long list on James and i even went to the extend of quoting faith alone without works is dead.

Its just like saying i comb my hair every day, but can i say im bald? LOLS . No right?

similar implications here my friend..

Calvanism, Reformers

I definitely agree that these groups, Calvanisms, Anglicans, Mormons, Charismatics, etc.. all have their issues.. in fact its going to be an entirely separate argument with their doctrines because they have originated from the Catholics bringing along various Catholic practices.. (baby baptism, speaking in tongues, etc)

However, are you aware there's even an older denomination that was persecuted by the Catholics BEFORE the reformation, persecuted by the Catholics and the Reformation, till laws were out to stop persecution.

If you read my past posts, you will realize, I've given you NUMEROUS BIBLICAL VERSES from ALL AROUND the Bible.
Old Testament practices were on having a perfect sacrifice to be placed on the altar, to symbolize redemption of sins.. This was done periodically by the Israelites once a year. The Day of Atonement.

But my friend, JESUS CHRIST came and is the FINAL sacrifice for sins.. present and future.
Like you said yourself, you DO NOT know at what point you LOSE your salvation.
Then does it mean, you have to pray again the sinners prayer? ask Jesus Christ to forgive you again?
If your answer is you've lost your salvation forever.. then what about all the Bible verses about salvation? I'm not sure how you got to the conclusion of losing salvation but to me it just doesnt make sense because then the Bible will be FULL of CONTRADICTIONS.

Hebrews 10:10, "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all"

My friend, once.. Jesus do not need to come die again for our sins again and again.. its just once..

Hey Bro Zan.....just an added insight.

Scripture did explain exactly what is the context of grieving HS. It would not be right IMO for anyone to simply misquote grieving the HS over everything or anything.

Ephesians 4: 29-32 (NIV)
29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

It all has to do with our words...when we speak to others....lack of graceful words but scorn. To use Grieving the HS to put fear and intimidate over other things like losing Salvation and etc...is just not right IMO. (as what Desmond says remove the text, you get CON).

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Feb 22 2018, 09:30 AM

Much grace to his family. He was one who have real burden for the gospel and he preaches a genuine and living gospel. He cares only that people hear the gospel. He does not care who hears the gospel.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Feb 22 2018, 09:28 AM

If you already know we don't recommend sin, then by this admission of you saying "continue to sin" doctrine, you are putting words into what we believe in. Don't you see the irony of what you say here?
Honestly I don't like this.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Feb 22 2018, 09:50 AM

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43144752


6 things He believed in....I like what he said here.

Everyone could be saved - even a notorious gangster


*

One of the more intriguing episodes of Graham's life saw him befriend Los Angeles gangland boss Mickey Cohen.

They were introduced by a mutual acquaintance, wiretapper Jimmy Vaus, who had converted to Christianity after attending Graham sermons.

Cohen did not respond to Graham's overtures to convert, but the evangelist stood by him over the years, even reportedly suggesting the gangster could make an outstanding gospel preacher if he chose to follow that path.

Cohen did not take up the suggestion.

"My job is to try to win every person to Christ, especially persons that would have influence for Christ in our society," an optimistic Graham said after one of their meetings, even if Cohen was seeking only to improve his image through the association with Graham.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Feb 22 2018, 09:37 AM

It is only an oxymoron if you have a hidden premise in your mind that defeated = unsaved. Then, an "unsaved SAVED" believer is an oxymoron.
But my point stands, in Revelation 2, there are the call for overcomers, the opposite of overcome is defeat(ed).

Secondly, I have not confused reward with salvation. You should address that question to your pastor friend.

Discipleship is just one aspect of the revealed Word. Furthermore, the meaning of "discipling them" into the gospel of the kingdom is not merely about the initial salvation. It is to make them the proper subjects of the heavenly kingdom. Even if I give you that it is only about being saved, it is too narrow to say the Bible is only about discipleship.

How about sons of God, partakers of the divine nature, heirs of God, priests of God, slaves of God, brothers of Christ as the firstborn Son of God, members of Christ as the Head of the Body, partakers of Christ, slaves of Christ, priests of Christ, co-kings of Christ, partakers of the Holy Spirit, and heavenly citizens?

With regards to "many won't make it", 1 Peter 4:17, says, "Because it is time for the judgement to begin from the house of God." Here we see that disciplinary judgement begins from God’s own house. God’s house, or household, is the church composed of the believers. From this house, as His own house, God begins His governmental administration by His disciplinary judgement over His own children, that He may have strong ground to judge, in His universal kingdom, those who are disobedient to His gospel and rebellious to His government.

So, we will all be judged.

You have misunderstood what I say based on your Arminianism view. We do get the reward based what we built on the foundations.

I am not saying to be lawless since we are saved BUT RATHER, we have be perfect as the heavenly father is perfect. Our living and work will be judged at the judgement seat so we cannot be lax. We have a responsibility and accountabiltiy to God for our life and work in this age.

This means we have to live out Christ (Phil 1:21), love Him to the uttermost, mature in the divine life, faithful in our service (Luke 12:42-47), reign with Christ etc etc.

This is nothing to do with eternal salvation but rather, God is righteous in that if we do not experience his ongoing salvation, we will be disciplined - and NOT inherit the kingdom of the heavens as a reward.

This solved the favourite refutation thrown by the Arminianism view that we can just live as before since we are saved, and which the Calvinistic view did not address (false security and absent of visible fruits of Christian living).

You have to contend with verses like these:

1 Cor. 3:15 "If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

1 Cor 5 indicates that a brother who is living in fornication will still be saved. Even such a sinful, defeated believer will still be saved. But in chapter 6 we are told that fornicators will not inherit the kingdom of God. This means that a fornicator cannot enjoy or inherit the kingdom of the heavens as a reward.

The three portions of the Bible, 1 Corinthians 6, Ephesians 5, and Galatians 5 tell us basically the same thing: you may be a saved person, but if you are still living in sin and filthiness, you will not inherit the kingdom of God. You will have no share in the manifestation of the kingdom of the heavens, because you are not qualified.

Ah ya, I wish you won't do this. You have your own mind to consider these things. Don't be a third wheel in this. If he wants to contact me directly, then let him do that. I don't like this kind of approach.

For your sake, I will answer them for you below but please don't forward the replies back to him. I will not answer them.

I use spoilers then.



Wow ... that is quite a straw man. We all have to define the terms we used and try to be as close as possible to the exact meaning used in the Bible for a discussion. Yet, that accusation that salvation has different meanings is really unjustified.

What I meant of salvation is as follows: in his epistle to the Romans, the Apostle Paul presents the broad scope of God's salvation. “For if we, being enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more we will be saved in His life, having been reconciled” (Romans 5:10).

For Paul, salvation incorporates a participation in the grace of God encompassing two aspects—reconciliation to God through the death of His Son (redemption for simplicity) and salvation by God in the life of His Son. “Having been reconciled,” Paul tells us, there is still “much more,” a further salvation “in His life.”

Then, a question is asked: “Have you been saved? Are you sure that you have been saved? If you have been saved, why does this verse say that we shall be saved?” Romans 5:10 compels the question: What is this “much more” salvation?

What is sanctification (Rom 6:19), renewing (12:2), transformation (12:2), conformation (Rom 8:29) in the salvation of God as presented by Paul in later parts of Romans? What about law of the Spirit of life freeing us? (Rom 8:2). What about Triune God making three parts of our being life? (Rom 8:2, 9, 11) etc. etc.

After all, Romans is a book concerning the gospel of His Son (Rom 1:9).



Well, someone is trying to define his terms

No one is disputing that each Christian faces the fire in that God do deals with us in the present age. But is incomplete to say that God's dealing with us is only in the present age. Yet, I find it very confusing at times when he made a point in case that 1 Cor 3 refers to the PRESENT experience of a believer, yet he begins with "...not necessarily held off until the end of time", which refute his own premise. XD

Furthermore, verse 13 shows "the work of each will become manifest; for the day will declare it (r. 1:8; 2 Thes. 1:10; 2 Tim. 1:12; 4:8;) i.e. the day of Christ's second appearing.

Secondly, I cannot follow the thought ... how is that related to eternal salvation since the each Christian is building on the foundation of Christ in the church?

Thirdly, what I am presenting is that there is a concept that inheritance has both soteriological and eschatological dimensions. In other words, a truth can be of the subjective experience of the believers today and ALSO be future “condition and possessions”, for lack of a better term.



The Greek word, misthos, translated as reward and its primary usage, however, is as an award for victors of athletic contests as a symbol of their triumph; hence, by metonymy, a reward or prize” (Vine, Dictionary 258). Vine further adds that it primarily meant wages, hire and then generally reward.

The most frequent corresponding verb to it in the New Testament is apodidómi, which is translated as repay in Matthew 6:4, 6, 18, and 16:27.

Second Corinthians 5:10 says "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."

Each of the believers will “receive the things done through the body according to what he has practiced, whether good or bad.”

Receive here is “the technical word for receiving wages” (Alford 661). As to the issue of the judgment seat, Vine and Scofield both allude to
1 Corinthians 3:11-15. Vine concludes, “At this bema believers are to be made manifest.…There they will receive rewards for their faithfulness to the Lord. For all that has been contrary in their lives to His will they will suffer loss”.

Scofield concurs, The judgment of the believer’s works, not sins, is in question here. These have been atoned for, and are “remembered no more forever” (Heb. 10:17); but every work must come into judgment.…The result is “reward” or “loss” (of the reward), “but he himself shall be saved.” (1233)

Wilkinson (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Wilkinson) concurs with these definitions. Concerning misthos, for example, he renders Luke 6:23 as, “Your misthos [wages] are great in heaven” (Devotional 25). He similarly cites verse 35 and Matthew 5:12, in which misthos is translated as reward, and 1 Timothy 5:18, Matthew 20:8, and James 5:4, in which it is translated as wages, the labor of the faithful believers (Bible Study 26).

Concerning apodidómi, he appropriately cites Luke 10:35, Luke 14:14, Matthew 6:4, and 16:27 for repay. He then concludes his word study with Hebrews 11:6, in which God’s nature is shown to be that of “a rewarder[misthos-apodidomai]”

Lastly, I will concur, for our present experience, the Epistle of Peter refers to God’s government in that sufferings are used by God to prove and try the believers’ faith; this produces preciousness, praise, glory, and honor. (1 Peter 1:6-7).



I have shown from the above about wages and reward. Also, he didn't quote 1 Cor 9:24:

24 Do you not know that those who run on a racecourse all run, but one receives the prize? Run in this way, that you may lay hold.

Well, Paul is concerned for his reward



This is the most ironic section in that the previous section, he is making a "present experience" case, now, he switches to the future experience with OSAS verses. This is not very consistent and subjected to some kind of theological view he holds.

Again, I present both aspects which not only address his concerns but is consistent in its interpretation.


J. Eichler (New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology and Exegesis Set) states:

In the book of Colossians itself, the notion that Christ, as the land, is for the believers’ present portion is confirmed in chapter two where Paul speaks of walking in Christ (v. 6), just as Abraham and the Israelites possessed the promised land through walking in it (Gen. 13:17; Deut. 11:24-25). The metaphor “having been rooted...in Him” is also used of Israel’s possession of the land of Canaan (Col. 2:7; Psa. 44:2) and confirms that the possession of Christ as the good land begins at the commencement of the Christian walk. Moreover, Paul was commissioned to preach the unsearchable riches of Christ to the Gentiles (Eph. 3:8).It is something that is partaken of by the believers today in the way of foretaste (Eph. 1:14).

This fits the pledge in Eph 1, where in ancient times, the Greek word for pledge was used in the purchase of land. The seller gave the buyer a sample of the soil from the land being purchased. Hence, a pledge, according to... Spirit in us. Second Corinthians 1:21-22 says, "But He who firmly attaches us with you unto Christ and has anointed us is God, Who has also sealed us and given the pledge of the Spirit in our hearts."

We have the foretaste today and the full taste in the future (if we earn it).

Eichler continues:

The word for allotted portion, ktims, is not the usual word for inheritance, which is kleronomia. The former is used for inheritance only here and in Acts 26:18. All other occurrences in the New Testament refer to a present, shared portion. For example, Judas Iscariot had a portion (kleros) of the ministry of the apostles (1:17); Peter declared to Simon of Samaria in 8:21 that he had no share (merida) or portion (kleros) in the present matter of the giving of the Spirit (both words occurring in Colossians 1:12 are present in this verse); the elders shepherd the believers as their present allotment (kleros) from God (1 Pet. 5:3).

I will add to Matthew 19:29:

Luke 18:29 — Luke 18:30
29 And He said to them, Truly I say to you that there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God,

30 Who shall not by all means receive back many times as much in this time, and in the coming age, eternal life.

In other words, Hebrew 9:15 is for our present experience as Eicher mentioned "...salvation is future and yet present comes from our being inheritors through Jesus Christ (Eph 1:11–12) and his death (Heb 9:15)."

To be fair, I will present the his side of future reward

The kingdom reward in Hebrews 10:36 is different from the promise in 9:15. The promise in 10:36 is the promise of the Sabbath rest mentioned in 4:9, in which we shall participate in the reign of Christ in the coming kingdom. That will be the great reward mentioned in verse 35 for the gaining of the soul mentioned in verse 39. This is conditioned on our endurance and doing the will of God. The promise in 9:15 is the promise of eternal inheritance based upon Christ’s eternal redemption, not on our work. The eternal inheritance in the promise in 9:15 is by the eternal redemption of Christ, whereas the great reward (v. 5) in the promise in 10:36 is for our reward in doing the will of God.

The will of God mentioned in 10:36 was for the Hebrew believers to take the new covenant way (vv. 19-23) and remain with the church (v. 25), not shrinking back to Judaism (vv. 38-39) but suffering persecution (vv. 32-34). For this they will receive the promise of a great reward at the Lord’s coming back. The promise of eternal inheritance is included in God’s eternal salvation. The promise found in 10:36 is the reward for the overcomers, while the eternal inheritance is for all the believers who have received eternal salvation.

In conclusion, what I am offering is a synthesis, the truth of the judgment seat of Christ and the accountability, reward, and punishment of the believers (millennial kingdom is another topic) which will not disrupt the basic principle of perseverance - preserved uto their final saltvation. Our eternal salvation is entirely apart from works done before or after we believe. This encompasses today's subjective experience and our reward in the future.


<Wasting too much time with this.... back to real life...>

Ekkk! Wrong! Too many ASSumptions from you. Like i said before, you pretend to not understand what i'm trying to say about living an obedient consecrated life. Implying i'm a legalist la, pharisee, etc.

Do not IGNORE the many verses that speak about apostasy & shipwrecking your faith.

Romans: 11. 20. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21. For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

For any scripture you bring to support eternal salvation, I will give you two to disprove it


Likewise, i also don't like your preaching of "easy believism"

There's no "irony" to what i'm saying. You still pretend to not understand. By declaring you're OSAS, you're in effect already taking a stance for continuing in sin after initial salvation. That is your default position.

I'm not unfairly pinning anything on you. I'm questioning your integrity. Don't you get it?

You say you are OSAS, but that you don't believe Christians should cont sinning, in & of itself is a contradiction. Either that, or you're confused! And i think you're confused!



E.g. If you're a Manchester Utd fan, u wear RED. Chelsea wears BLUE. You're saying you wear BLUE, BUT you're not a fan of Chelsea. How can??!!


My point is, if you tell a person he can never lose his salvation, it will affect his behavior & attitude towards sin. Sin is such a big deal that Christ had to die on the cross to give us a way out.

My point of contention has always been very simple.

If a pastor, who has been a faithful servant for 20 years, runs off with a lady & lives in adultery with her until the end of his life, is he still saved? This is not a trick question!

You're a OSAS proponent, so you answer it!

I'll even give you the benefit of answering on your behalf! OSAS people can only answer this in 2 ways :

1) He was never a believer to begin with.

2) You're trying to trick me with a hypothetical question. Believers will never commit adultery.



Don't be naive. You perfectly know what i've been saying all along.

And i didn't realize that Calvary Church teaches Calvinism.

Or at least partial Calvinism, even if you don't subscribe to the full TULIP teachings. I'm quite shocked

- double -

This post has been edited by Mr. WongSF: Feb 22 2018, 03:02 PM

I actually do understand where you are coming from.

If scripture support Eternal Salvation then it support Eternal Salvation, else the word eternal loses its meaning.
For you try to give 2 or 3 or 100 to disprove only means either you imply there is contradiction in scripture or there is something we don't understand.

Allow me to explain what I mean.

For example Romans 11:20 as for ALL the warning verses that you provided, What You don't understand is that as Saved Born Again believer...we are to change our mindset that how we use to live is wrong. Granted but the warning are...really for people refuse repentance.

How can you say Born again believer refuses repentance? I will tell you why, it's precisely because of teaching such as yours.

You put the focus on self where there is NO power for change. "YOU MUST REPENT, YOU MUST REPENT..THOU SHALL NOT...THOU SHALL NOT".

Ever realize there's hardly much focus of Christ and on Christ in your setting but everything is mostly about "Man" what he needs to do or cannot do.....You get the idea.

John 1:17 (NIV) - For the law was given through Moses (All about Man performances); grace and truth came through Jesus Christ ( All about Christ).


This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Feb 22 2018, 03:02 PM

Sorry if you feel offended, if getting an answer from a 3rd party does not sit well with you. It was not my intention to garner support from outsiders, but to expand my view & also to learn whether the pastor's responses would be in line with mine to you. I apologize .

Moving on to your response, I find the RED highlighted very difficult to digest & accept. It is simply illogical.

Are you then, not in effect, saying that, just because one professes to believe in Jesus Christ, he has an unfair and HUGE advantage over the fornicating non-believer?

Would not, an unbeliever respond in disgust, & say, "Oh! just because you're a Christian, you can fornicate all you want, & get to heaven?" BUT i'm a fornicator just like you, but i don't get heaven because i don't believe in Jesus?"

pehkay, can you not see the ludicrousness of this situation? Your presentation of this point is utterly ridiculous! It would even be more absurd if one who calls himself a Christian would be willing to ACCEPT that view!

And i'm also confused with the BLUE highlighted. Never in my years of attending different protestant churches have i been taught this!

You're telling me there's a 3rd option? Because my Bible tells me if you don't make it to heaven, the alternative is hell.

Perhaps your "Kingdom of Heaven" definition is different from mine. That's why i asked you what is outer darkness by your definition in my previous post.

1) What are the "manifestation of kingdom of the heavens", like you put it?

2) What do you mean by " will not inherit the kingdom of God"? Is the kingdom of God not heaven?

I only understand that the sinning unrepentant Christian goes to hell for the Bible says "will cut the servant to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." - Matthew 24:51

Perhaps you're looking too much into what 1 Cor. 3:15 doesn't say?

Your brand of Christianity will appeal to the wrong crowd.

Anyway, thanks for taking the effort to give me a long drawn out answer. It's much appreciated . I can clearly see what all of our stances are, be it pehkay, UW, or zanness.

I knw we're all busy ppl in real life. So yes, i'll just have to live in peace with the majority of the Calvinist in here.

I guess i'm an Arminian until i get to heaven, then i'll be a Calvinist


Thank You All!

Anyway. Just want to comment on your last statement.
It's actually what my fav preacher believes in even though I differ with him on that statement.
BTW, that guy gets most of his teaching from Peter Ruckman who is kind of his arr mentor.

To those who believe salvation by works/law

the above is Self explanatory


And to put a fullstop to those still debating on living by law, losing salvation etc..



And why God had to send His only Son, Jesus to persecuted on the cross..
YES, it is for our sins.. but more importantly, it is because ONLY HE IS WORTHY...
Revelation 5:6,7

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

He was worthy not because of merely His Identity as the Son of God, but more importantly he lived a human life sinless.. He was the final price to pay.. and if merely just dripping blood is able to save us, then its so much easier. But his death symbolized the ultimate sacrifice of the Lamb..

With that, we are no more judged by law, but judged by faith, and its just one question.
Do you, or do you not, believe in Jesus Christ.. that's all that's needed..



This post has been edited by zanness: Feb 22 2018, 03:15 PM

If you wan to talk about Catholicism, there's already another thread for that, you're free to discuss about it over there, on why you got reported it could be either your previous post statement is like flaming or trolling which is prohibited in serious k/

Amen to that

Does it matter whose teaching we decided to follow? Does it matter to you why alot of members here disagree with you? You should think about it before you force your own theology theories on others

Did I force my theology on others? Wow. You sure have an axe to grind.
It's so clear how biased your views are. I guess it's ok to show your hatred for others even though showing your hatred actually disgraces Christianity. Guess the verse judge not least you be judge only applies when people judges you or your favourite teaches. But then it's ok for you to judge others.
Anyway.

Of course I am not going to "force" my views on you. But then why should I waste my time on a reprobate anyway.

This post has been edited by sylar111: Feb 22 2018, 03:32 PM

Hi UW,



i agree with this . So if there are no contradictions in scripture, which i believe there aren't, that means there's something wrong with our interpretation of scripture.

That would also mean either YOU are wrong, or I AM wrong.

Now in response to the few lines you've left me from your above post, yes, i agree a renewal of mind should take place. Yes, it will happen if we submit our will to the HS. But not if we choose to walk away from the faith.


I too understand your concerns:

" True believers can have a full assurance of their eternal salvation (1 John 5:11-13). This would be impossible if we could lose our salvation.[1]

. . . if you believe that you can lose your salvation whenever you cease to believe or fall into sin, then assurance is beyond reach. That is why I tried to establish in an earlier chapter the doctrine of the security of the believer. If we are not sure that our relationship with God is eternally secure, it is very difficult to grow in the Christian life. "

Am i correct?




Anyway, at the risk of going off-tangent here, lets stick back to OSAS.

You believe Christians can't go back to being unsaved & i'm saying believers can fall from grace. That is all there is to it! The 2nd seed of the parable of the sower is a bullet proof point.


I have a suspicion that your understanding of the words "eternal security" is wrong. You could/might have jumbled up eternal security & eternal salvation.

There are verses in the Bible that are written in the present tense, and most are not aware of the implications.

You can even check these whole verses with the Greek or Hebrew if you fear them losing their original meaning.

Here is an excerpt :


What Does 1 John 5:13 Really Say?

Many people who base their salvation assurance on 1 Jn. 5:13 are unaware that it refers only to those who have a present-tense belief in Jesus!

Please notice verse 13 from Young’s Literal Translation:

These things I did write to you who are believing[26] in the name of the Son of God, that ye may know that life ye have age-during, and that ye may believe in the name of the Son of God.

This important truth about the word believing automatically changes the meaning that we should have of this often-cited passage.

The truth is, this passage offers salvation assurance only to those who presently are believing in Jesus.




He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life (1 Jn. 5:12, NIV).

Please note this verse does not say, he who had the Son, but has the Son has life, which is also present tense!

With the present tense still in mind, John repeated the same truth, but this time from the negative, “he who does not have [present-tense] the Son of God does not have life”


[end excerpt]





Put it another way, eternal security is true, when i finally get to heaven. then it's forever & ever. Eternal in that sense. But while we're still on the Earth, a very real spiritual battle is still on-going for our souls.

There are many danger verses in the Bible telling us to be careful of spiritual negligence. I can actually reconcile all the Grace verses + these other verses easily from an anti-OSAS POV.

On the other hand, OSAS proponents can only accept the GRACE verses but sweep the other verses under the rug to make their doctrine fit.



There are many examples in the Bible too. Demas for instance. Demas left the ministry and went back to the world. Apostasy is a very real fact of life.


Anyway, i can already observe that the majority of those in this fellowship are Calvinistic at heart. Some to a lesser degree. Some more. I guess i'll just have to leave you be


But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will. - 2 Timothy 2:23-26



https://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/getsaved.htm

Which is precisely the point. The power to change can only be found in God...Whoever has the Son of God has life. So where is the focus of your Anti OSAS? Isn't it on the performance of Man?

Can I be anymore clearer?

Yup, Thank you Bro.

It's not mine but that is what God has offered, you don't like it, you bring it up to Him. Why Puke on What Christ came to do? He made the way....We enter in.

You on the other hand paint the impression that we need to climb the highest mountain and do some self inflicting penance to qualify Salvation.

You're not pinning anything on me but you're questioning my intergrity? LOL And you think I'm confused?
Bro read what you've just said...no wonder the much confusion.

If you question my integrity (which is irrelevant) then you ARE pinning something on me. Don't confuse yourself.

No, Again you're putting your words into our mouth.

If we are against sinning, then we are against. You're insisting we encourage sinning. We never preach such.

Those came from your prejudiced opinion and it's not biblical.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Feb 22 2018, 04:31 PM