Your replies are very much spot on! Have you been to seminary? Taken un-credited courses perhaps?

Can you recommend some of your reading material (over the years) to me? Titles that i can go hunt for myself. Wat r u currently reading?

And yes, i was all over the place without explaining the point that i was trying to make. Excuse moi.

I was trying to make the point tat the harvest will come to an end at a predetermined date. A very specific appointed time. A Moed.

Also, yes, some of the dates are ONLY speculative in nature but fascinating just the same.

Just like the 1st time arnd, whn Pentecost was kicked off by

This time arnd, a resurrection sign in the heavens actually kicked off the count. BUT first & foremost, it must indeed be established tat it was indeed the GREAT SIGN in heaven.

Also, the 153 number of fishes caught. Interesting figure.

Also, Feast of Pentecost is 4th on the Menorah.

Lots of types & shadows here.

Wait, i e-mail you bah. I'm going all over the plc again........zzzzz.......

Thanks pehkay

Oh yes! And may i add tat we gentiles shall receive a double portion. A 50 X 2 sorta thing. Just love the typology.

When the harvest finally arrives, the Jews will envy us.

Jeremiah 8:20 i think

Should we sin more that grace may hyper increase? Part 3

Romans 5:20 (NIV) - The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

The question that was asked towards me is same level of accusation was level to the apostle Paul in Romans 6:1: What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?

The devotion that I've shared with you is the same message that the apostle Paul preached. Many a times we have ignored the next verse, Romans 6:2: By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

What this verse means is that born again believer, have died to the imputation of sin , aka the life of a sinner. The status as a sinner. Romans 6:5-14 (Please read your bible on these verses before continuing) tells us that those who accept Christ, when Christ died..our old person also died (hence signifying the status of the sinner hood status also dead). When Christ was resurrected, we who are in Christ are resurrected as a New Creation.

Now with that being said, people may ask...as Christian does it mean we cannot sin? Well, it doesn't mean we as born again believers are unable to sin or fall from grace. We can, and I say this prophetically...we will in the future. The only wrestle that you may have is that; does your irregular periodic falling away/sinning, changes your status of being righteous/sinner before God?

If the covenant that God cuts with you, for righteousness depends on your act or performance then it does...it is a covenant of God's Law which is the Old Testament.
But if the covenant that God cuts with you, for righteousness depends on your Faith, then how can your status be so flimsy and change like the covenant of old, where it is the sacrifice of bulls and goat offering temporal covering.

As a born again believer...which covenant are you under? The old or the new?

Is the work of Christ Jesus temporal and flimsy like the blood of bulls and goat?

This is where if you understand how you attain righteousness under the New Covenant....is basically what separates baby Christians and full mature Sonship Christians.

I leave this to your thoughts.

God Bless.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jan 8 2018, 01:56 PM

So thats mean i can't go on sinning after i'm saved? What will happen then? I try not to sin. But i love to sin. Occasionally. Willfully even. All the time.

But i still believe tat Jesus is the Son of God & that He died for my sins.

What is this "sin unto death"? Are there sins that don't lead to death? Which are bigger sins then?

How does hyper grace work? Do i need to confess again & again every time after i sin?

No Brother.

What Romans 6:2 is saying is that...we who have died to sin means our status hood...as sinner is no more, If you read the entire chapter of Romans 6...it's expounding in the context of our "status". The key verse is in verse 11: In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Look at the previous text..what it's talking about "in the same way"?

See from verse 8 to 10..Christ died only once and was resurrected only once. The Bible also repeated this in other parts...Christ is not going to come down and die again on the cross...everytime you sin. Do you agree?

If Christ died once and that is enough to remove your sins...In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin..meaning in the same way count your status as sinner no more..it is dead. Done away with! Count YOURSELF dead (no more) to Sin. Talking about your person, not the action.

Do you get me so far?

Christ came to change the believers status hood once and for all.

Now just because, God has changed our status from Sinner to Saint by his Grace through Christ...does it mean..we cannot sin? The answer is we can. Why because the nature of the flesh still reside in our body.

Before I continue..I need to say this; The Flesh does not define who we are...God's grace define us. We may have the flesh but we are NOT the flesh as it's status. We are made righteous by our Faith in Christ.

And what causes us the tendency to sin? The answer = God's law. The more we focus in trying to obey God's Law, the more God's law work against us to cause us to sin.

So what is the solution? Well...Look away from God's Law, look to God's Grace. That is the antidote to sin and that is the only answer that will deliver us. Why? Because Grace is not a subject, it is the very person of Jesus Christ.

The way out of sin..is to keep on receiving God's Grace everytime you fall. Romans 6:14 promise this Grace will lead you out. Keep your eyes on Christ all the time 24/7.

In summary, what is God's grace all about? Simply put..it to just rest and believe Christ sacrifice is more than sufficient and has us covered in every area of our weaknesses...everytime there is sin..it has been judged at the cross. We must practise this...everytime we fail...confess and Thank God, that sin HAS BEEN judged at the cross.

When we keep receiving this grace in abundant [His Grace will super abound (hyper). The word Hyper comes from the Greek (Hooper)] God promise in Romans 5:17...It will lead us out of sin. See..When we reign in Life (romans 5:17), sin does not!

Hope this explanation helps you to understand a bit.

is the highlighted part referring to this verse, "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," - Hebrews 10:26

is this what u mean by Christ not dying on the cross again for our sins?



You mean God's Law makes us want to sin? So God's Law is actually bad? God's Law is the 10 commandments?



The way out of sin is to receive more grace? Wouldn't it be logical to want to sin more & more, since God's grace will be given out anyway, EVERYTIME we fall ?



I don't mean to be rude, but the blue & green parts of your explanation makes no sense to me. I seriously catch no ball.





What about, "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: " - Revelation 2:26

Then can this verse be interpreted as : And he that does not overcome, and does not keep my works unto the end . . . . .

How about another verse, "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. " - Rev 3:5

Then can this verse be interpreted as : He that does not overcome, ......... ; and I will blot out his name out of the book of life .......

So what happens if we're unable to overcome sin until the end of our lives? Is that the definition of a failed/carnal Christian? Or completely not Christians at all to begin with?

Your name must originally be in the book, in order to be blotted out at a later time, no? The way i see it, the verses above are definitely for believers then.









How about this verse " Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. " - Luke 13:24

Criteria looks very tough to me. I'm sure it's directed at Christians/believers only.

People who are non-believers, do not even believe that there is a heaven in the first place & will naturally not put in any effort, so they definitely are not the ones striving, no?

So Christians can actually fail?




Also another 3 verses which are definitely directed at believers, because they're called church of Laodicea : Rev 3 : 14-16

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Again, sounds like a very serious & tough criteria.





Finally, this verse : "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." - Matthew 7:21


Surely it's a verse directed at believers only, right? Non-believers don't even believe in God. Why would they address Him as their Lord? That means there are Christians who "doeth NOT the will"

Because the subsequent 2 verses say they cast out demons & performed miracles in God's name & also prophesy. Unless they're Hindus or whatever other religion who could do the same things la.




I clearly see 3 categories really : 1) Unbelievers 2) Overcoming/good Christians 3) Failed/bad Christians

How to reconcile all the above verses?







* Oh yeah, I think you forgot to address this frm my previous post : What is this "sin unto death"? Are there sins that don't lead to death?

First let's establish the Bible does not contradict itself. We all can agree on this, yes? It cannot say one thing and mean it another way. We all can agree that Faith is the key that God recognises and also is what God credit to us as righteousness, yes? Salvation is given by God's grace can never be earned, agreed?

If you read the entire chapter of Hebrews 10, think about it, why the beginning of Hebrews 10 talks about the Old Testament Law,why despite sacrifice after sacrifices in the Old covenant cannot cleanse the person, cannot remove his/er sin. That is No.1

Then Hebrews 10:26 is talking about rejecting the sacrifice of Christ, if you read the heading of Hebrews 10...it's titled Christ’s Sacrifice Once for All. So if anyone rejects the sacrifice of Christ, there is no sacrifice left. That is No. 2

THen at a the end of hebrews 10, God talks about the righteous shall live by Faith. How the entire chapter Hebrews 10 ends like this:

But my righteous one will live by faith.

And I take no pleasure

in the one who shrinks back.”

But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.

The end crucial point, God is highlighting "but to those who have faith and are saved." So it still boils down to Faith as the key.

What Hebrews 10 is talking about is that if you do not enter in via Christ as your saviour...there is no other sacrifice (left) that is going to safe you. Meaning to say...there is no other way or road. Christ work is the only thing that will save you, not your own performance. BIble is very clear God will not have it...because you work or in other words...you performed, that God owes it to you Salvation. We all can agree Salvation can never be earned right? So if you say that because you did (Doing) right therefore you've avoided the pitfall to disqualify Salvation, you are in essence also saying you got salvation by your performance. Don't you agree that if you say "doing" is vital, we contradict the heavy emphasize that no one actually can make God owes it to him for salvation?

If you think about it, whether you take up Christ as your saviour or if you believe in adhering to the 10 commandments, there will be times you will still sin willfully. So what is the difference then? Either way you are caught at a dead end because both covenant would disqualify you in the context of sinning willfully. Do you really think the phrase "deliberately keep on sinning" is really referring to our act of disobedience?

Think carefully. If you look at point 1,2 and 3 it is not. To understand Hebrews 10, you have look back in Hebrews 9. Why is Paul so painstaking trying to convince the Jews, Christ Sacrifice..is the way to God? Why talk about his blood and sacrifice to the Jews? Simple reason..because some of them still firmly hold on and believe in the Old Covenant of God's Law that can qualify them. With that being said and in mind, In Hebrews 10, the end part talks trampling the Son of God underfoot? Isn't that in reference to rejecting Christ as messiah?

It may be hard to understand but the phrase "deliberately keep on sinning" is in the context of deliberately rejecting Christ. Do you know that anything is not of Faith is Sin? (Romans 14:23)
Meaning to say Rejecting Christ is a sin?

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If you read revelations 2:26 it says there, those who are victorious and does God's will until the end, God will give the person authority over the nations. The person ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’. What has that got to do with Salvation of eternal life? Not everyone will rule with an iron scepter, no?


Likewise in Revelation 3:5 is talking about strengthening what is about to die. Christ did not disclose what it is exactly, only with the hint: to remember what have received and heard; hold it fast and repent. Now I maybe wrong but on the surface, it sounds like they could have lost Faith, lost the fire/ lost the spiritual passion there. I do not know but the phrase the one who is victorious could also be in reference to the one who hold fast in Faith till the end.

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Luke 13:24 is referring to Christ being the only way. He is the narrow door to God hence the meaning "narrow"...hence also meaning..NO OTHER WAY to God. It's not talking about your performance or works.

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The Church in Laodicea ( Rev 3 : 14-16) is talking about them depending on their wealth, therefore have no regard for a need for a saviour, the key phrase there "they don't need a thing"? **

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What is the will of the Father that Matthew 7:21 talks about?

John 6:40 answer it.

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."


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All in All, still point back to Faith in Christ as the criteria. **





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To answer your earlier question God's law is not bad. It is Holy and Unbending but it cannot make you holy. God's Law was given to stir up sin that is ALREADY in you. It is a mirror to tell you, that you have sin. But the key point is, God's Law came in not to increase holiness but to increase sin. You can read Romans 5:20 many times and that is what it says.

I don't blame you if you don't catch any ball. Many people are afraid of being vulnerable before God. They feel that if there is something they cannot achieve by what they do or say, it make them vulnerable. God's Grace is not natural, it forces complete surrender and trust in God alone apart from works. Grace is not something normal, it takes the Holy Spirit to teach. You don't need the Holy Spirit to teach..Do good get good, Do bad, get bad. Because on that, every religion teaches that even secular motivational speaker does it efficiently. But God's way is different.

I strongly believe in the work of Christ as perfect, apart from Work, that has been the centre doctrine of my life and it is what I live by and it is what that has cause a shift in my life and has help me see God move in the spiritual dimension. And I lamented that so some Christians have missed this and have never experience the much more life that is expected of God because they wanted to depend on Law Covenant. This is something I personally feel.. many Christians has missed it and do not understand.

The way out of sin is (YES) to keep on receiving that abounding Grace. Romans 5:20 is not encouraging you to sin. It didn't say you might as well sin so that grace may abound. It says there "WHERE there is sin, Grace abounded more". Meaning in the area of your weakness. That is the difference. How you interpret it as " logical to want to sin more & more" is basically what was accused to the apostle Paul. Do you not see this? Paul was misunderstood and I believe so is mine but I take hope it is the very same message as Paul preaches.

*** You do realize, a lot of preaching out there emphasize a lot on what Man must do/must not do. There is lack of preaching on looking to Christ as Saviour..even in there is MIX with the teaching of what MAN need to do (Again). A lot of it is central focus on Man...Where is the Glory due to God when Man is central focus? It is based on this irony, I labour and fight against every doctrine that points to the performance of Man. To me it's a heresy and false teaching when the gospel has been perverted to Man being the focus and being the central to Salvation, dismantling Christ as IF He is just the Judge and not being the High Priest as well as the Sacrificial Lamb. Too many time, the fear has been levied on Man's performance rather than the divine work of Christ, His perfect Death and Resurrection that has reconcile us back to God. That is missing too much in our community today.
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As for your last question on "sin unto death", I've yet to really dwell on it because of time. Please do excuse me.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jan 9 2018, 10:47 AM

goood morning..

good afternoon.

I agree that the Bible does not contradict itself. That is why i quoted many verses that are very clear cut, that do seem to indicate that there is a condition attached to Salvation. Obedience.

"If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned." - John 15:6

Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. - Revelation 2:5

But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified. - 1st Cor 9:27




Isn't it obvious that the above verses are aimed at Christians who have fallen back into the world/sin/relapse/backslidden?

Why would unsaved folks even abide in the 1st place when they don't even acknowledge the existence of Almighty God?

I actually don't find the Bible contradictory at all, if i were to interpret these verses literally. They are an easy read. Not easy-believism or 'hyper-grace'. There is a very real danger to being lulled into sleep thinking you're saved.

Why would the adversary be prowling arnd like a roaring lion, seeking to devour us if we're already SAVED lock, stock & barrel? Go kacau the unsaved better la! Keep them blind continuously.

Why would we even need to bother to put on the shield, helmet, breastsplate, etc (u knw the verse) since we're home & dry already? Just go sin til kingdom come, since we're already saved, right?

If i may put this bluntly, ermmm, you're probably the one mis-intepreting the Bible IF the Bible doesn't contradict itself. Which it doesn't.

I'm not satisfied with your explanation of the verses from our previous 2 exchanges. BUT of course, it's either i misunderstand the verses or you are. We can't be both right

From the verses i quoted (including those i quoted above), it is very clear that there ARE conditions attched.


Of course i agree with you that only Christ can save us. So no issues thr. Not buddha, Not allah, Not vishnu, Not sai baba, etc. Not by works (legalism). BUT after coming to Christ, our works are our fruit. NOT filthy rags of legalism.

Of course i also agree with " For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. " - Rom 10:13

To just say a 5 min prayer & you're saved? Wow! Did you read about the churches being jam-packed after 9/11 in the U.S. & the numbers dwindled down again after a few more weeks?

Would you not say that those people said the sinners' prayer & later went back into the world, are still saved to this day? Or will you use the typical answer, that they're never really saved to begin with?





Just to cool things down a little UW, not to insult your teachings on God's Saving Grace, but i was curious as to where you really stand, since you're the resident GRACE preacher here simply because i'm curious :



1) What about Christians who relapsed/backslid utterly completely & never did come back? Or Christians who continue living in habitual sin (drunkenness, watch porn, etc) Will we see them in Heaven?
Disclaimer : I'm not a fruit inspector

2) I suspect your brand of Saving Grace as 'cheap grace'/easy believism might give license to sin, because we can't sin away our salvation ( suspicion NOT accusation. Forgive me if i'm wrong)

3) From reading the Bible, my belief is that Salvation is an on-going process. We're not done yet! We're only confirmed when we die or get raptured.

From my understanding, if you refer to the Greek & Hebrew terms on some of these verses, it's in the "past participle". Certain verses if read in context, are in the present tense. There's actually the real danger of falling away!

Of shipwrecking one's faith! Don't have to look very far. There's this transhumanist guy who was in the Faith for 20 years, but unfortunately has turned apostate.

Do these verses not apply to the failed Christian :

2 Peter 2:20-22

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.





So i still see 3 categories here :

1) Unsaved

2) Christians who do not overcome & have 1 foot in the world. They indulge in their sins but, still believe in Jesus Christ.

3) Christians who walk a Holy life & stumble on occasion, but bear much fruit. In short, lived a victorious life.





* Its ok about the "sin unto death" question. Take your time . Even i've got 2 minds over what that actually means.

Is it those :

a) who straight out reject Christ (blasphemy of the HS)

b) Christians who, lets say for e.g., commit fornication (death sin) or use swear words (light sin, not unto death)



and my dear panqueen! sylar111 stop PM'ing me & ask what you wanna ask here. State what's your definition of the dispensation of GRACE. I know the difference between Abraham'/Moses' time and our present age.


tagging for fun KLboy92

Not really, Grace is not cheap grace but it is the power of God and it's the only solution to Sin and I must say, it's is power indeed. Something many Christians do not realize because as I've said earlier, they don't like to be vulnerable before God, they want to trust in what they can do with their own performance for Salvation.

Well, if Salvation has a condition which is obedience then Salvation is never a gift to begin with and the gospel is not really something good news because it has to be earned by your performance and God owes it to you and the way you put it, that nobody knows for sure until they die....that is something the Bible doesn't teaches but as it is....it's what Man teaches. 1 John 5:13 tells us that

1 John 5:13 (NIV): I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

The verse above basically debunk the notion, we don't know or it's an on going process.

I'm very familiar with the argument above and I can go on and dismantle every verse that you throw but I think it will be pointless as it's evident you don't realize Grace is really everything.

The fruits of Man (Heavy emphasize on Man's obedience) is really Man Central and Man focused, not Christ focused.

The fruits that I understand from the Bible comes by the power of God, never originated from the focus of Man.

As I've explained earlier, the reason why there are so many backslidden Christians or your examples of 1 to 3 is because of such preaching that you subscribe to. Obedience to the laws of God will only cause more disobedience.

But for Audience sake, Here are the explanations:

John 15:6 (NIV) - If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. Question is, how do you remain in Christ? Well our Lord, gave a direct answer: Love each other as I have loved you. And how do you love when even at times Christians has hate in his/her heart towards their own neighbour?

Even the ability to love...is something we need to receive from God first before we can love others, don't you agree? because our own love is shallow somehow. Only God's love is ....Divine, something we receive by 1st Faith in Christ, believing that God first love us unconditionally, we pray then we step out in Faith, loving others.

The Bible define Love as..God first loved us. (1 John 4:19 ). And this is something that comes via trust. Because how do you know God loves you when you can't see Him physically? Still points back to Faith isn't it?

Revelation 2:5 (NIV) - Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. Bible mention first love. What is first Love? It should point to loving God right? What is love from Biblical perspective?

1 John 4:10 tells us: This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

1 Corinthians 9:27 (NIV) - No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize. I agree, being a Christian takes discipline. But is this verse talking about the context of Salvation or reward? This is something we need to be careful in understanding it's context. In the whole chapter of 1 Corinthians 9, you noticed Paul make mention of reward few times.

1 Corinthians 9:7: 7 Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat its grapes? Who tends a flock and does not drink the milk?

1 Corinthians 9:11-12 11 If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you? 12 If others have this right of support from you, shouldn’t we have it all the more?

1 Corinthians 9: 23: 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.


I can go on with 2 Peter 2:20-22 but what is the point? You are not really reading, what I've painstaking explain. You just want to tell me I'm wrong.



This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jan 9 2018, 04:32 PM

Eh eh kau ni Drag in a poor 2-B class sinner here (according to your interesting categorisation above) for what Hope you had a good Christmas and will have a blessed 2018 unker Wong!

Bak pepatah Melayu, kerana nila setitik rosak susu sebelangga.

Any sin no matter how little makes us fall short of Heaven. So there is the power of grace to save us, and of course the power to save is no small power indeed. And yes we all know that so long as we are on this earth our bodies continue to tempt us to sin, we will never stop even on our deathbed. So there is little point, from a strictly theoretical theological perspective, in declaring a "Cut off point" that henceforth this is a sinner, or that is a saved. It doesn't end.

Yet obviously as the Bible directly states, this is not license to sin. Which can mean only that Jesus wants us to try and try and try, despite falling every time. I think the only thing really that is asked is that we accept him, accept Christian teaching and confess and repent our sins. Quite importantly, we must not sin intentionally.

Now what is meant by sinning intentionally? To me there are 2 exceptions here. 1) by deliberately for sinful and selfish reasons denying that an action is sinful. I think Jesus probably will let go real ignorance but not wilfully excusing something as not a sin. 2) as we know was practised by the Catholic Church in darker times, doing something which we know is sinful AND dismissing it saying we will make up for it later... at its very worst the Catholic Church sold advance indulgences for sins to be committed LATER... credit for future sin, can you imagine. Truly for everything else there is Mastercard. So these 2 exceptions constitute sinning intentionally which as the verse says, God is going to be quite unamused by.

But is there still hope for us even when we commit such "mortal" sin? Probably. I wouldn't bet on it though. It is up to Jesus to decide, and we all know he sees through and true what is in our hearts. In the end it really is between you and God.

So God sees what the world doesn't. As such it is impossible for us to judge what sin and who sins that would be deemed to be intentional enough that the person is in danger of backsliding. Even someone's lifelong total rejection of Jesus perhaps might be eventually reversed at his deathbed... who knows? And we are all sinners too, knowingly and unknowingly, so really who are we to judge ultimately.

But in the interest of prudence, the wellbeing of the Church and indeed our own mortal souls, we should know where to draw the line. And to me that means we are well within our rights to draw up rules that people who indulge in certain sins without repentance should not be considered properly Christians or Church members. Of course this is done knowing that if our judgement is wrong we should be in our turn judged... so bear that in mind. But there are Temples and there are Inner Temples and there are Holies of Holies... so again, perhaps there is some justification to protect the Church from evil influence, as much as we want to be "inclusive" and "outreaching" in the name of growing congregations salvation (ahem).

1 sin for example which I feel falls firmly into this category is homosexuality. It is obvious that the Bible speaks against it, and not a single argument for it cannot be distilled to "because of desire". Anybody arguing otherwise is in mega danger of exception 1) above. Be inclusive, be outreaching, but also be firm in the stance that homosexuality is defined unequivocally as a sin... this is something a lot of Churches have stumbled and will continue to stumble on in years to come.

The position to take therefore is ultimately a middle line - we can offer a certain degree of understanding and grace ourselves to fellow sinners, but at a certain point we have to stop and say sorry, this I leave it to God and you, I can't handle this. That is theology - practically speaking there will be differences between what an outreach ministry can accept and what a small fellowship can handle. If a small home group cannot handle rehabilitating a committed druggie or gangster or prostitute, they should refer the case to better resourced ministries.

Because again remember, kerana nila setitik rosak susu sebelangga.

Here endeth the lesson

Note - please dont ask this class 2-B sinner to quote chapter and verse, I don't have time nor the awesome spiritpower to cite and memorise everything. But I feel this approach is fairly in accordance with Biblical principle. Feel free tocorrect me if you don't think so. Sekian

This post has been edited by KLboy92: Jan 9 2018, 05:29 PM

unknown warrior

do you agree with these :

https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/...ose-to-be-lost-

&







he also understands the LAW

This guy is a nobody! He was saved only back in 2014. BUT his preaching is excellent. It blesses people.


Here's a somebody : Dr Lutzer of Moody church, Chicago



i've listened to his sermons for 3 weeks straight on u-tube. He shares the same understanding as the 'nobody' above.




Nowhere did i imply about works Salvation. All I'm saying is that there are stern warnings in the Bible, that not striving to live a Holy life, but living like the world & yet expecting to breeze into heaven is a No-No!

The disobedient servant WILL BE cut-off! & you are not labelled a servant unless u r under the authority of a Master. Only Christians call God their Master.

The only part that i agree with u is that it takes discipline to be a Christian.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

This post has been edited by Mr. WongSF: Jan 9 2018, 05:36 PM

Good. I agree. That's also why i said i ain't no fruit inspector

Have a Blessed year ahead.

I understand your concern. But....

The striving to life a Holy Life does not come by exertion of will power or performance, it will fail. I'm sure you already know that. Even hard preaching of calling one to Love God and repent from sin..such focus of emphasize on Man' performance also lacks the power to change.

The only thing that will change people's life is to expound the Love of the Father as in the story of the prodigal son and the constant focus on Christ Jesus as Savior. The one who walk on water, the one who multiplied 5 loaves and 2 fishes feeding the multitude. The one who forgave the adulterous woman when all the teachers of the law wanted her stoned. The one who is long suffering patience but we are not.

The constant focus on God and his Grace, not the constant focus on the weakness of Man.

That my friend will change people's life.

If you want to know why people love the world...if you read

1 John 2:15, the ESV version accurate translation explains it why.


Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

The phrase there...the Love of the Father (not the love for...) but the Love of....is not in the person..meaning, He/She never really understood or know God's Love.

God has made Salvation easy but we are the one, trying to make it hard by misappropriating scripture verses. As I've explained to you, on the meaning of the narrow road, the hard verses, they are not what you think it is.

BTW you are wrong on the Fruit = Our Fruits. It is the fruits of the Holy Spirit, not yours or mine. It comes from God's power. Perhaps that is where you've missed it, leading you on thinking Salvation is very hard to achieve. You have to be careful there how you interpret the verse. IN every translation..no matter which one...it is entitled, the Fruits of the Holy Spirit. It does not come by our performance. Neither can we force it out. If we can..it's not the fruits of the Holy Spirit but Man's own Fruit.

*Disclaimer*****...I'm not denying there are people who lives like the world and have back slidden. I know such exist, there are plenty but I also think we should pray for such and not push them away and we get angered/frustrated that they don't love God enough. I know you've said you're not a fruit inspector...I saw that but We should be patience and commit them to God and let God change their life...even the most hardened of heart can be changed by God's grace.

Never leave a soldier behind even very unqualified ones.



This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jan 9 2018, 10:42 PM

This may be unrelated, but may I ask why is Mr. WongSF avatar is the same as zamorin's?

Hi UW,

with regards to your reply to my post on Rev 3



While the 7 ancient churches of Asia (Turkey & Greece?) were real physical places which are in ruins today, Rev 3 is still very much applicable to our modern day churches.

There's a little bit of all 7 churches in our present church actually. Some more, some less. Some gooder, some badder

At the beginning of the book of Rev, verse 1:1 says, " The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: "

So it is yet future (now).


To the Church in Laodicea

14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:

These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation.

15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other!

16 So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. - Rev 3 : 14-16


I've presented my angle & so have you.

So anyway, i happened to watch this vid today, which only came out yesterday(!) touching on these exact verses.

So just wanna share it here :





"Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." - Revelation 2:5

This may be unrelated, but may I ask why is Mr. WongSF avatar is the same as zamorin's?

Well according to the doctrine that you subscribe to..you agree there are time you must have sinned willfully even as a christian, No?

So what hope is there for you, since you've trampled the Son of God underfoot, there is no sacrifice left for you but only a fearful expectation of judgement from God.

Are you going to quote God's grace in your defense? Because if I remember that verse correctly, there's no more sacrifice for you.

Just curious to know your answer.