I believe what you meant was "light weight concrete".  It is normal concrete mixed with sand and a foaming cocktail.  The foaming cocktail create a lot of small bubbles within the concrete mix. This means the cement used is very little but you get a very big brick from it.  Actually the cost of each brick is low but it is been sold at very high price.  You are basically paying for air.  This is why it is so light.  The foaming agent used in the concrete mix will not affect the birds.

    Because of the large concentration of air it can repel heat very well. At the same time it can also absorb a lot of water. If you use it for walls you have to apply waterproof paint.  If you are using it for floors - as one BH contractor is doing- then it is not advisable. The strength is very low. The contractor in question used wood beam and plywood and then pour light weight concrete over it.  The problem is that cement is POROUS even without the air bubbles. With light weight concrete water will seep right through and in a few years time you will also have to hack out the floor - plywood and all.

     Heat mitigation could be achieved by many other means and it doesn't have to be high tech. What is more important is "appropriate tech."

---

Added on January 21, 2009, 11:45 am

    I was at the GEM seminar last saturday (17-1-2009) and thanks to the waris president who "arranged" Dr.Madihah Rauza to sit beside me I was able to put across some of my views. According to her Jabatan Perkhidmatan veterinar is preparing to submit to the cabinet a working paper on the swiftlet industry and input to them is still open. The GAHP - according to her is a evolving document and more input from the industry the better. She touched a few points and some of my comments were as follows :

      a.  It is the reponsibility of the BH owner to keep the place "comfortable" for the birds.

             This guideline was for captive animals where the animals could not vote with their feet/wings. I asked her that if the birds don't like it they could fly away.  By having this guideline on paper it could be a source of fault finding for sole purpose of getting rasuah. This guideline should be removed.

       b.  The floor should be concrete. The rationale was that it is waterproof and can be cleaned easily.

             Concrete floor is not water proof and over time will also be stained. If I use plywood and laydown a thick layer of plastic flooring or even cement board I could easily meet the requirement of cleanliness. I think guidelines should recommend outcomes rather than prescription. The outcome is easy cleaning and cleanliness maintenance.

       c.  They can only have one hole.  This was for the security of the birds.

             I read Nguoro recommendation that it is recommended to have one hole in each floor and his explanation was very sound and good.  If birds do not feel safe then they could again vote with their wings. Thieves could post a bigger problem to eggs and birds.

        d.  Sound at 6 m from the building should be 40 db.

            I do not know much about this but I feel that at upper levels the decibel could go up. 40db is very low.  GAHP is silent on the level and where the 6m is measured from.
     I do not have the GAHP and I only mentioned what was discussed at the seminar.  I think if associations want to make a meaningful contribution at this stage they could take the GAHP and study it and to see if the recommendations make sense and also to make our own recommendations.

     The current problem as I see it after attended the seminar is the division of responsibility.  The local council is responsible for the building safety and environmental cleanliness. The jabatan veterinary - while not having enforcement responsibilities - was responsible for the bird's living environment. The Perihitan is responsible for the birds, eggs and nest. If you move any of these without their permission they have the right to intervene.  Having a license from the local council doesn't free us from the clutches of perihitan officers.

        But what happened in mukah was a crying shame. The people who were charged with protecting the birds became their destroyer.  BH associations must insist that the Jabatan perkhidmatan veterinar be consulted before any BH is to be demolished or shutdown if the wild life protection act is not to be violated. Perihitan has the right to stop birds, eggs and nest from been transported but they can only stop the person in the process of committing the crime. This means they have no right to enter the BH. Perihitan has to be informed when BN is been harvested.

       It is within the wild life protection act for state goverment to declare a building as wild life santuary. Associations can recommend to the respective governments to declare a BH as a protected santuary when the population has exceeded a certain number of birds and only the BH owner has the license to go in and harvest the BN.

        I had read in a blog that the current swiftlet making BN in BH is different from the swiftlet found in the wild. The species are very different.  If so the government through jabatan veterinar must do research to establish if the swiftlets found in man-made BH are protected species.  If it is not than all the rules laid down for perihitan do not apply.

        Just some thoughts.

The state BN association of Johor is capable and has done alot for the industry. For one, they don't take high joining and membership fees from members unlike other BN associations I know of. Their jobs don't stop at getting approval from the authority to issue license only, they also strive to establish a world class nests cleaning standard from a 100% pure bird nests.

Brother Swift4ever,..........

Wish your silver lining is getting brighter ............
Mind tell us more on the association that you mentioned above....... like who is the name of the president, his contact no., his address, the registeration fee, annual fee, term and condition to comply of the new member, and so on.............
If they are really have good intention......... i really want to join them also.......

Kelvin Heng is now very famous liao!

U can see him on the star online.

http://biz.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?f...44&sec=business

This Kelvin also LIED to me a few times.

thanks chiongguo... papercrete eh? A consultant company is offering their services constructing one made of such material. However being the sceptic i am, will only decide after visiting one of their projects. I don't want to be misled and blindly trust anyone even though they are acclaimed consultants. To be frank, i'd possibly be 'bergaduh' with them regarding a few structures of their Bird House template.

Here's an issue i'd like everyones opinion, i have met a few bumi companies offering their services constructing, managing and maintaining birdhouses... some even to the extent of developing property in the form of BH's. A hundred ++ units... all sold out!? However what concerns me is such a clause of using their services maintaining & managing for up to 15 years... which is somewhat funny. I am sure 3-5 years should be enough for a BH owner to learn most of the basic necessary technicalities... why up to 15 years? If they are assuming that the BH owner would remain idle and just sit and wait for $$$... dunnolah... maybe some people prefer that way?

Owh... and all sifu's here... my apologies for not contributing much technical stuff... at the stage i am (draft SPA/contract to build my 1st BH) i don't think i know much except from the visits to successful BH's, BH's newly built before launch, problematic BH's and many i just observe from far away imagining and guessing the internal design (especially during Maghrib... love seeing the birds swarm in and based on that know how good the BBH is?). I have been literally researching, observing & collecting info about this industry for a almost a year or so... and its very much surprising that in Malaysia... not many research is done... and if done... it is not accessible to the public. I really do wish some sort of collaborative work can be done among the many persatuan with possibly a public university or research institute regarding commercial swiftlet farming.

Another thing is i truly believe current policies and government attitude towards this industry as not conducive. More can be done, more red tape can be cut, ignorant officials and key government officials should be educated... which is why a thousand thanks to CCC is due. More lobbying should be done, more exposure to international markets should be expose and new unexplored markets pioneered.

Anyways, i do not intend to be a sifu or consultant... i just want to have one successful BH for now (later on make more, and more, and more  ).

By the way, i geuss everyone has read the following;

NSCA Stocktaking report on Convention On Biological Diversity (CDB) Malaysia 2007 by Eco_Factor Consulting...
Projects Under 9MP with Capacity Development Elements related to CBD,
page 19, National Strategy 5 (Strengthen & Intergrate Conservation Program) under Perhilitan; Swiftlet Nesting Conservation & Industry Development Program. (http://www.undp.org.my/uploads/NCSA_CBD_Stocktaking_Report_final.pdf)

Page 74, Annual Report Perhilitan; Where are the research data anyway... how can it be accessible? Who do we have to suck up to to get it? (http://www.wildlife.gov.my/printed_material/lt/lt2007.pdf)

Huh, i don't see much progress on any of the so called reports.

What is IBS system ?
   I went off a tangent  .  I have a farm here in kuantan and I was thinking of having a joint venture with others but somehow that did not play out well. So I thought of building a cheap one with minimum capital input and let the BH expand on its own dictated by the success of the BH itself. So I had been thinking of ways to see how this could be done.   The BH could also be an experimental and learning BH to try out different approaches.  I presented it so that hopefully someone could critic it i.e. find fault with it.  I already know some of weakness of the design such as termites eating the wood or plywood.  Plywood can be made waterproof by painting it with a layer of fibre glass glue. This is used by those making speed boat with plywood.

   Plastic sheeting is just normal plastic. The real insulation would still be the air gap. The 1/2" cement board makes a very good wall and it is much cheaper than having a real wall.  When birds start to stay in the house a brick wall could be constructed outside without upsetting anything inside. So essentially it is still a double wall.

    I had also thought of using second-hand container. Found a place that sells it for RM3000/= for a 20 footer here in kuantan. We have to provide the transport.

    BH's shouldn't be expensive as there is hardly any weight bearing requirement.

All sifus please help! Recently I notice that some of my bird’s nest having blood stain outside the nest in dark red color.  Luckily the bird, eggs and the baby still there. Not able to attach picture after try for so many times. Any ideas what cause this?  

There are wood buildings that are still standing more than 50 years on. Plywood if it is treated and embedded I believe it will last. I was thinking of using plywood for the floor and laying on top of it cement board. On top of this will be another thin layer.  In australia this method is used a lot even in toilets and kitchen.
      I think misting system doesn't work well and often resulted in mould.  Even with a hygrostat the control is very bad.

    I am now designing my first BH and had considered a number of systems and misting system definitely, in my considered opinion, to be the worst approach to use. Let me explain a bit about the physics of relative humidity and from this we can get some understanding of the various systems that can be designed.

      Humidity means basically the amount of water vapour in the air. At any one temperature the air can hold a certain maximum of such water vapour. As an eg. at 30 degC the air can hold AT MOST 30 g/m^3. If there is only 15 g/m^3 of water vapour in the air than the relative humidity is 50%.

      If this air is in an enclosed box and inside this box is a pool of water. The water in the enclosed box will evaporate until it reaches 30 g/m^3.  The relative humidity now will be 100%.

      If you now poke a hole in the box the relative humdity will start to drop until the amount of water vapour evaporated is equal to those lost through the hole.  So in order to ensure that you get 80% relative humidity we could make the hole smaller or increase the rate of evaporation.  Rate of evaporation can be achieved by increasing the surface area of the water exposed to the air.

      Blowing water into the air will increase the relative humidity and often to saturation (100%) and even with a hygrostat it will always over compensate due to what engineers called transport lag. As the water vapour blown into the air is quite large droplets it will not remain in the air for long.  If you want water vapour to remain much longer in the air than an ultrasonic misting/humidifier has to be used.  This can be quite expensive.

      I read in a indon book that what they do in indonesia was to lay on the floor jude cloth that is wet by pools of water.  But as bird pooh will drop onto the jude, over time it can be a stinking mess that is almost impossible to clean.  Finally I came up with a design, just completed the installation yesterday, where a small channel of water is placed along the wall (about 4 feet off the ground). I use the rain drainage channel to hold the water. And over the sides I will drape cheap dish washing cloth. The water will soak the cloth and the water will evaporate from the surface of the cloth.  The water in the channel is controlled by a float valve.

      I had tested the system in my kitchen and it worked. I recorded an evaporative rate of 200g of water over a 12 hour period(morning till evening) for a 2 sq.ft of cloth area.

      We can control the surface area to control the relative humidity.  Once this is established the relative humidity will remain quite stable over a temperature range.  It is all natural and everything is self-adjusting.  Environmentally friendly just like in natural caves.

      Air entering into the BH is often quite dry and to ensure that the fluctuation is not too drastic I bought a water tank and placed it at the roving area.
      I notice and had seen a number of designs of ventilation holes and the reason for ventilation holes was for heat ventilation.  If you have more holes than your relative humidity will drop. I think Harry often suggested closing those holes and he was actually right but I read in other places a lot of these consultants were insulting his advice. Actually what he adviced was correct.

      If you are using these holes for getting rid of heat from WITHIN the BH than the strategy will not work.  The solution will cause more problems than solve.

          Heat MUST BE PREVENTED from reaching the BH at all cost - this means insulation.

        Now if you have a double wall than the ventilation holes will reduce the heat from reaching into the BH and turbulence and lost of relative humidity will not be a problem.

        A very strange design was to have a long pipe from the inside wall to the outside wall and the person explained to me it was to get rid of the heat inside. More often than not the heat outside is higher and it will flow inwards rather than outwards.

          For maintaining temperature below 31 degC , HEAT MUST BE PREVENTED FROM ENTERING THE BH.

          Air-conditioning etc. are a waste and in the long term expensive.

West Wing, I have little knowledge about the birds and much of what I had said were from my understanding of the physical laws of nature in creating the right condition for the birds. I had little to no knowledge of the real conditions inside a BH. I had only entered one functional BH so far. All else I gathered by entering the BH when it was been built up - tau si (stealing skills and knowledge).  Your practical knowledge of the functioning and design of BH is very valuable input. If it works or if it doesn't it is always good to know why.
      The earlier posts that I made was with regard to temperature and humidity control. I had intended to do a follow-up post on ventilation in answer to your post on ticks and the use of pesticides.  Perhaps this is a good place to put in electrons what I had been thinking and invite criticisms. Remember whatever I say came from a blind man.

      Briefly this was what let me to believe that good ventilation of ammonia gas was important. One day I met a BH owner opposite mine. He told me he bought his for RM750,000/=, RM330,000 for the factory and 420,000 for 420 bird nest in the BH. Ever since he took over the number of BN collected kept dropping until it was less than 300.  At the same time that evening I read in one of Hary Nguro's book that a lot of BH he had visited had 300 to 400 nests and then the decline started to happen.  I believe that he had observed correctly that the decline came about because the ammonia built-up had became toxic to the birds and they started migrating from it in search for a better place.

      The question now is how to mitigate against this toxic waste ?  Is ventilation holes the answer ? Are there better and simpler solutions ?  These had been upper most in my mind. 

      So far the people I spoke with with regard to VH connecting the inside wall to the outside wall  had said that the VH was for heat and never for ammonia.  Until todate, in many books and forum, ammonia built-up was never mentioned as a problem and many were even proud that their BH smelt like a BH because of the ammonia smell. The GAHP guideline of cleaning the BH every 1 or 2 months then cannot be applied across the board. The more heavily populated BH have to be cleaned more often if they don't want the birds to start migrating. Those designing standalone BH could actually incorporate some form of self-cleaning system --- incline floors with pressure spray and water flushed drainage. Or a spray and scrub system could also be used. All properly timed and controlled....dream BH 8-).

        Ticks and mites infesting the shit piles are also related to the ammonia. Ammonia , hydrogen sulphide and other toxic gases are by-products anaerobic digestion of the quano.  Ticks and mites are only a manifestation of an underlying problem and not the problem. Mites and ticks become abundant when the acidity of the shit piles dropped below 6.5.  The use of pesticides is then not a solution as it is not solving the underlying problem.  I believe that the problem - toxic gases, ticks and mites could be very much reduced if we address the underlying problem.  This is also important for another reason. I believe strongly that the consumption of BN in US and the europe will take off one day.  BN do address quite a bit of problems related to the stresses of modern living and in time to come it will gain in popularity in the west where many are looking for safe and natural means.  If BN do take off in the US and Europe there will be tests and tests and tests.....The need for more environmentally friendly and pesticide free production of BN will increase.  When this scenario plays itself out a premium could be obtained for BN produced organically and as environmentally friendly as possible.

        The solution, in my considered opinion, would be to look at the decomposition process and see how organic farmer address the problem.  Most shit piles left on its own will decompose anaerobically i.e. in the absence of oxygen. If it smells then it is anaerobic. Many pathogens(disease causing microbes) are also anaerobic. Traditional farmers use a combination of microbes called benefitial microbes to address this problem. These benefitial microbes, all aerobic, are sprayed onto the shit piles regularly. These benefitial microbes will increase to the point where anaerobic microbes no longer is dominant. Farms using such benefitial microbes don't smell and there is no toxic gases produced.  And the shit pile won't become acidic to the point where mites and ticks find a paradisiac home.
(Check out :  http://www.naturalenviro.com/Article.php?A...ic-v-Anaerobic).

          Where to get this benefitial microbes ?  In recent years a new name called EM or effective micro-organism had become popular. You can get a bottle for roughly RM100/=.  EM contains all the benefitial microbes that will be able to do the job.  However it would not be right not to mention how EM came about. EM was discovered by Teruo Higa and he patented the microbes and formulation of EM. But the knowledge of the use of EM, though not in this high sounding name, had been with traditional farmers in india and I believe this knowledge which is the legacy of humanity should not be patented or exclusively marketed by any commercial interests.  Commercial variety found in the marketplace all came from this patent and most manufactured it under license.

      In the spirit of keeping the knowledge within the public domain I have listed below how each of us could make our own EM or benefitial microbes to be used in your own BH.  There is a 1-2-4 formula for making EM. You can ask around but the formula I give below is from traditional indian farming community.

  ----- Farmers' EM --------

    Ingredients - 
        pumpkin  3kg
        banana    3 kg
        papaya    3 kg
        molasses  3 kg
        eggs        5
        water      10 litres.

    Preparation -
        a . Put the above items in a container with lid. Close lid tightly.
        b.  10 days later open lid.  There should be a layer of white fungus on top. If there is none then add a bit more molasses. If there is no molasses you can add sugar. Mix the sugar in some water, dissolve it and then pour it into the container. Stir and close the lid.
        c.  Every 10 days open the lid and stir.

      Preparation is ready on the 45th. day. 

      Mix 200 ml in 10 litres of water and spray. This concentration is for growing plants. So use this as a guide.

      **** NOTE ****  Please use this approach with the understanding that it is EXPERIMENTAL.  It would be good if someone do take it up and report back to us here.  As for me I will certainly use it. I am now thinking of designing a system where these EM could be placed in some evaporator.

      The next question that we have to address is whether we need some form of natural ventilation. If the BH is small then the opening itself would be sufficient. Hary Nguoro suggested that instead of having only one bird entry hole for one BH every floor should have its own entrance hole. This is also to increase the chances of bird entry and to have good ventilation.  If a BH is very large then one hole would certainly not be enough.  The balance between having VH and humidity control require careful planning but the introduction of EM does help in reducing the toxic built up and hence require less VH. The current design of using VH on the walls can give rise to uneven expellation of toxic gases. Places far from the VH could be heavily contaminated.

      One other way to have good ventilation without too much turbulence and also to have a more even expellation of toxic gases would be to have pipes with tiny holes (probably 1/16" - just a thought - no proof) layed out along the walls. The pipe pass through into an air-tight cabinet with an expeller to generate negative pressure to allow air to slowly flow out to the outside.  The volume of air could be controlled by controlling the expeller. The ventilation could also be sensor controlled.  Such a system is not very expensive to implement.

      **** NOTE ****  Again I have no data to support what I suggest.

      Any input welcome.  Thanks.

Bravo...I like your preparation and if you have some preparation for the ticks, I will like to know as I never like those chemical. Then, me is always me and I will comment when I dont' share the same feeling and hope you don't mind but I don't have good eyesight so sometime I overlook or missed some words.
1. Ticks or mites are normally in the nest and birds and I got bitten so many time and my body tell the story. The ticks zoom in the heat or carbon we produce and even the heat  from the timer is not spare. Touch the timer and you will have a handful of ticks when you have a full house of birds.I can only talk thru experience but not on the technical or scientific aspects so someone may have to explain these.
2.aroma or perfume as most consultants name them are only for the new BH  in order that the BH smell like their caves. Just like a baby like his pillow smelly but not poisonous and I hope you understand what I mean. In older days, I used birds shit for that and it make the birds feel at home.  When you have a few thousands birds with their babies, oboy, what a smell and that why I have install a window in the BH only to open when I am in the BH. Don't worry cos when you have been with the birds for so many years, the birds learn to know you and go on with their work even when you are there. Older time, we need the V holes to cool down the BH as we are modifying the shop houses to be BH and we are not expert in insulation and only trial and error ways.  We need them just imagine in one of my formal BH, there are over 5000 birds in one floor just 20 by 70,  making a total of over 10K birds for the 2 floors. Just walk in without light and you will be hit by birds and you can imagine the smell .....worst if the floor is wet. Nowaday, BH has such good insulation system that V holes are not essential but a requirement to provide healthy environment for all. A little flow of air is a must and that it shouldn't be at the top.
3. Never have 2 entrances and if you want to, then I would suggest partition off the other parts so that you will have 2 BHs to draw in the birds and would suggest you try different sounds and all different as you really never truly know what the birds will like and you will have two opportunities instead of one. Never make a mistake like my friend having 3 inlets and end up with sini masok, sana keluar and the air too much movement so will be the light. Double trouble.  Agreed that no V hole will be necessary if you BH is just a room only but that bad investment as how much can a room of nest bring......and the effort spend on it is the same as 2 floors BH.

Taking about V holes, it about 3 feet high but if your BH is low, then it need to be lower sometime at just a foot. Just imagine the flying path of the birds and you will be able to determine the high of the V holes. How many holes, then depend on how big is your BH and how congested your BH. Personally, I prefer more but then I can block any when I want to because you pay the same no matter how many holes you want. 

You must have got all wrong as BH is sold base on the number of nests for the very reason that the bird will always return HOME... they are just like chicken, they will return HOME and only less than 1% fail to return. Take my words on this....as I know by experience not by book or theories. Doctor once told us to take Vit.C when we have cold and now they tell us that Vit. C is not helping at all....... I have been there and this I know well.......when HOME is hot and dry...the swiftlet still return HOME. So, when your BH is their HOME, even you just have a small hole instead of a big opening, they will return HOME. The expert teach us to clean the BHs, that is no good for the swiftlets as the HOME smell differently and they are scare and uneasy......but they will still return but delay making nests. The BN buyer will sure want a clean BH as it produce whiter BN...... Hahaha when you mention looking for a better house...........toxic or smelly, they will return as they have  only one track mind....... just that the new birds may not like the BH so no much increment. I have seem birds die because it's too cold and mind you, adult bird  protecting their eggs and just drop dead in the nest. With ventilation, no amount of shit will deter them from building nest but ticks and other factors  will cause some dead chicks.

Above is my opinion and have no intention of hurting anyone just sharing my experiences.........for the betterment of swiftlets and ranchers.

OK, I get the breeze and shall limit myself to one posting per day.....thanks all for sharing

Hmm...

well...as far as i know, this forum is not only visited by farmers but also NGO, authorities and all other types of Haiwan.

By reading what we said here, they can catch us from behind.

There are things we dont talk openly as we knew these Haiwan will pick on it and use it against us, ordinary farmers.

Westwing and Chionggua, pls do consider to edit your comments minus some of the details about P.

Of course, if you think this is NO BIG DEAL, then go ahead talk more about it.

GOD BLESS.

As always, we don't need to use any Chemical to clean nests or the kill mites. There are many ways to kill it ORGANICALLY.

You can find many Solutions online.

..

---

Added on February 2, 2009, 9:56 amTo GEM,

well....no comment on the way you advertise it here....but it is too much though. and starting to make peoples VOMIT.

If you are good, farmer will tell his farmer friends and their friends.

No Need to use old tactics here.

I hope you don't mind me SO FRANK HERE.

WE ARE ALL ADULT WITH TINY BRAINS.

THANK YOU And I Apologise.

Good to see now a lot of Knowledgeable New Investors joining this industry.

I am new to this forum. I have a 3 months old BH built from 20x70 shop lot in Melaka. I have been updating my BH progress in my blog
http://yenyen-swiftlet-farming.blogspot.com/. Please feel free to give me your comments. All comments are welcome

http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr159/y...ntitled-3-1.jpg

Above question was PMed to me by home002200

If I were you, I wouldn't want to install the VH from external wall to the air gap. The air gap should be totally seal off.
My reason being if you allow entries to the air gap, you are providing a well protected breeding ground for swiftlet's predators and you have no ways to see or reach the inside of the air gap ( unless you break the external wall ).
Imagine if you see cockroaches or rats running in and out the air gap VH, tell me how are you gonna terminate them ?

I got this tip from a successful BH owner.

Try keep a distance of the VH away from nesting planks.
He said if the bird house is well occupied, the top surface of the 4" VH elbow (internal wall) would have accumulated a thick layer of bird shit. Very often when the young birds learns to fly, they will somehow accidentally touched the shit by the wings or legs if the VH elbows were located too near to the nesting plank. This has resulted dirtier nests located along the internal wall.

Please debate the logic of this tip.

The Chart is generated using the Data Logger which collect the temp and humidity data every 5 mins.

The V-holes were closed ever since the BH start operating.

exactly why i've been pestering about a functional national level association, get malaysian nature societ, WWF, UNDP (CBD), people like this guy
(http://www.frst.unimas.my/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=176&Itemid=216) and this guy (http://www.frst.unimas.my/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=87&Itemid=102) involved..... state associations and industry players as well. getting only government departments and institutions that lack the capacity and capability to comprehend the actual issues the industry face is a big no-no. it will result in misunderstanding. the only plus factor was that Harry was there, but he himself was not as helpful, he pondered more on how to relocate rather than addressing the issue face on. Dr. Redzuan was also present, despite his efforts to educate these agencies & individuals... i dont think they get the picture.

what the industry needs now is more lobbying power,political leverage and a lead society fighting for the industry and those involved.