disciplin priest ftw. u arent die for nothing but ur oponent is hurt as well. ur party can take em down ezly.

i only mentioned spell hit and pene when u mentioned resistance... and resilience as it stands now is a joke unless ur equipped with arena gears. ur trade off is tons of spell dmg/ap/stats for the resilience bonus rating

in pure organized high end arena/pvp, the only thing that really matters in terms of equipment build up is stamina and resilience. TRY taking ur shots at a post 200 resi character. and switch back to a character with 0 resilience. for pure testing purposes you can even try rank 1's DD's to get a bigger idea on the difference.

spell dmg/ap/stats (excluding stamina) is for pve ala dmg meters. in pvp, especially organized rated high end arenas, its not who that deals the biggest dmg, hell EVERYONE CAN DO THAT WITH EASE. its who that can survive the most and ultimately be victorious in the match.

thats Holy Priest do best and I just offered a solution to any holy priest don't wanna be a sitting duck/ Free HKs.

Anyway we can all share our pvp experience and be a better player, in the end I guess its all based on players skill, just like playing street fighter, I used Ken alot and I once had an epic 100+ straigh win of my life record. But someother people using Ken just lose misarable. Sometime it just based on player skill and we need to put ourself in the actual scenario.

About fire mage, if he dun CS/Sheep and I dun Fear/Dispell, just exchanging damage spell and heal I'm very confident holy priest will out heal any of mage damage. Ofcourse we gotta makesure both are in Pre Kara Gear (primal mooncloth for priest / spellfire for mage). I got -10% spell damge and +15% resist against fear/stun/charm.

P.S. (in the raid I tend not to waste DKP on pure healing gear too much, I'd like to get +damage gear so I can farm with smite & holyfire, if I said holy out dps shadow howmany of u will believes me? =P Anyway my guild still doing Kara and hasn't clear it, I guess no one in my server clear Kara yet)

So about the circling thingy... I noticed recently when they walk thru u u immediate got the message "target must be infront of u"... unlike previously u still get to turn around and hope it to resolve when u manage to face your opponent.

as a matter of fact, survivability is what holy priests does the worst in high end arenas

and no, even with just stand still you spam heal he spam dmg, he can out dps ur healings. unless you do plan to dispel his ignites, but that would be out of context considering you said the priest is just doing nothing but spam healing

and in between a competant shadow priest and a holy dps priest, shadow wins hands down, cant even debate that shit.

as for the circling thing, theres this awesome thing of holding down ur right mouse button. try it.

even if you CAN outdps a shadow priest , i'd take a shadow priest over a dps-ing holy priest anyday
misery + VE + VT provides more utility than you can imagine
and pray tell , is the reason why you outdps shadow priests because of repeated insta-smites ?

as for fire mages , yes it would be pretty hard out-dpsing your healing with pom/ renew up as well as constant healing
but dont u think thats kinda caveman style ?
with a deep fire build , talking bout no ap/ pom , both parties utilizing all cooldowns , a fire mage would stomp all over a holy priest if u tried to outheal it
impact / ignite / counterspell / dragon's breath > your heals

Yep... me will to do the same too, but I mentioned thats for my solo farming purposes, I got a mage alt/main to make water for myself so water is not an issues I just wanna burn down mobs ASAP. As in a grp no one will let me dps just heal

Holy out dps shadow when they obtained 700+ damage gear, shadow do not get much bonuses from damage gear because of only MB is critable and its 1.5 sec cast means you get only about 1/2 of your total +dmg gear, MF get penalty to +damage because of snare effect. however smite scale very well with +damage and holy/disc. has very good crit boost talent. The new holy nightfall is nice when proc, but it's not required here.

I remember there is many holy vs shadow dps post in the forum before, go read it out, end game holy dps > shadow. however like you said... no one wants a dps disc/holy priest, just like no matter how hard OOM kin argued in their forum that they can out dps mage & warlock, but no one wanted an OOM kin/ Disc.Holy Smite priest in a grp. Also Holy priest pvp still lose to most of the class out there. (i.e. rogue & warrior which is more than 50% of the population)

Woot!!! someone finally agreed holy priest can out heal firemage dps, thats all i need to prove, as someone mentioned mage can out dps a holy priest's heal. As for pvp. I know, I'll step in melee. and ofcourse I'll dispell and fear and heal to full when needed, but most of the time I dun have to fear/manaburn, when I melee and walk thru them its GG for them, some went desperate and spam AE... thats when I spam holy nova for some quick dps+heals... I really have no issue fighting mage here...

I'm glad so much of us interested in pvp technique here, should I create a 'How to beat xxx' topic? so everyone can share with us their experience when someone have problems fighting xxx.

Hmmm... can I ask?? If I said pre BC Soul Link Warlock can tank Onyxia... Howmany here will said I'm carzy?? maybe we are not ready to hear about holy priest win most mana usage class/ holy out dps shadow endgame / warlock tank Onyxia kind of stuff here

This post has been edited by Shopboy: Mar 22 2007, 02:51 AM

think you missed the point right there


regardless of that, good firemage still > good holy priest healing abilities if its a straight casting battle with no timers or cs/fear etc.

the ONLY damn thing you achieve by stepping in to MELEE a competant fire mage is:
1) take pointless molten armor damage, which is CRITABLE, IMPACT PROCCABLE.
2) get KITED, as a CASTER, to take additional pointless damage from the mage's instant casts.

the ONLY people that you can beat with ur 'lolerwalkthru technique' are keyboard noobs. ANYONE that mouse turn and doesnt have over 1-1.5k++ latency (even avg tmnut msians have 400-600) will be IMMUNED TO UR JOKE TECHNIQUE. and thats ASSUMING THE MAGE STANDS STILL, WHILE BEING A CLASS THAT HAS THE MOST OFFENSIVE DIRECT DAMAGE INSTANT CAST SPELLS, and thats ASSUMING ur fighting msians, where the majority of the population on US server are? why of course, AMERICANS, that have less than 50ms ping.

and no, sl locks tanking onyxia is nothing surprising anymore pre-bc, there have been guilds that have naked characters to tank the whole MC, onyxia and more. I MYSELF AS A ROGUE TANKED ONYXIA FOR A WHOLE LAST 20++ % OF HER LIFE. and lived in the end and onyxia dead.

Also grands me immune to sheep and stunt when ignite, woot!!! hasn't you heard mages are bugging Blizzard to take of molten armor's proc in the forum? btw nothing mage can cast I can't dispell...

Walkthru is a joke? I ress my case here, can you tell me when he try to walkthru you, which way you gonna turn when he stack with you? because that is the time u get "target must be infront of you message"

Insta spell for fire mage = CoC, FB, Dragonbreath, AE/AB (Side note: As a mage I won't count on CoC and DB too much because they are kind of hard to target. to ensure 100% hit I need to face the opponent and reverse before i hit the button )

This post has been edited by Shopboy: Mar 22 2007, 03:13 AM

I'm pretty sure the "target must be in front of you" msg has been there for a while.

I've always have this notion in my mind that if a fire mage can get you sheeped, it's pretty much GG for you.

shopboy, Quazacolt, you two are sure noisy. Although at the end of the day, I'd say Q is right in what he says. The assumption is that if you went up against a very good PvP player and not an average player. If you didn't, then a lot of what shopboy may work. Not all time but most of the time.

http://wiki.shadowpriest.com/index.php?tit..._DPS_Comparison
The link provides a comparison of the DPS output that will come from caster but there's certain restrictions. The table is based on an old patch 2.0.3 and mostly for PVE. However, probably some builds are PvP builds. These are theorectical DPS figures and player skill is not factored in.

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Added on March 22, 2007, 9:08 amhmm...maybe another thing that should be considered that when posting, comments should be based on playing against a really good PvP player.

because the only way to improve is using tactics to beat better players and not the lousy ones. one doesn't get to be #1 if having to compare against a #10.

This post has been edited by myremi: Mar 22 2007, 09:08 AM

of course your whole explanation hold perfectly true when its an arena match, but what im debating here with shopboy is that a holy priest will never beat a warlock 1v1 period. play style varies when its a random bg and a competitive arena, i truly understand that... with my gear and pve spec now i can go in to random bgs and 3 shot normal 70s with just shadow bolt spams, but in "practise" arena match... i get raped almost instantly, note how i mentioned practise to emphasize the intensity of the battles in there, it's no joke i understand it... but for a holy priest to beat a warlock? nope, never happened and never will


and one more thing about shadow priests and why ppl take them in raids... this is the mentality that not many ppl will adapt to and the idea that i would say rise from the raid genius "Kungen" of nihilum... the viability of shadow priests is not only in the dmg. it's also the mana/hp regen but most importantly it synergises with any other shadow specced warlock blasting shadow bolts... having 4 warlocks with high crit rate will almost assure u that the 20% shadow dmg buff will always be up, in addition to the 15% shadow weaving from shadow priests... if ur gona go ahead and say holy priests has high dps, that will only come from raiders who are doing 5 man... no way post karazhan will priest be allowed to dps in holy, cos u've got nobody to synergise with... and please dont mention retardin dps... i'm so sick of arguing about it with a guildie till the point he hasn't got a raid spot recently because of his stubbornness....

there are stats by top raiding guilds as proof of end game viability, and the reason why many priests are converting to shadow priests as of now. i'm not saying that holy priests are totally worthless but given a choice, i will only have 1 holy priest in a 25 man raid, 3 priests in total where the other 2 is shadow.

you are NOT immuned to sheep. only thing ur gettin is ignite tick damage breaking sheep every 3 seconds, which means with maximum effect, you WILL be sheeped for 3 seconds. OMG I GTG BACK FROM WORK NOW ILL CONTINUE LATER

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Added on March 22, 2007, 6:16 pmwtf this is quaz, somehow retard sichiri didnt logoff ;

This post has been edited by Sichiri: Mar 22 2007, 06:16 PM

continueing

sheep aside, you will still get STUNNED while under ANY DOT EFFECTS and ignite is no exception.

and just turn 180 degrees directly, not hard. your not gonna get the "target must be infront of you msg" unless ur lagging heavily or your turning slow, or ur using keyboard to turn. HELL, theres even a macro that majority of hunters use for kiting effeciency, it allows them to instantly perform a 180degree turn.

coc and db are NOT hard to target, the only time they are hard is you having over 500-700 latency. chances are, so long ur on a good ip or tmnut didnt decide to shaft you up, you will be around 300-600 ms. that is enough for coc/db so long you put at least some "aiming" effort to cast it, not really that hard, a direct frontal cone. and bear in mind, thats just laggy malaysians. US players with under 50 latency have no problem or whatsoever in targeting coc/db's on your face. and wtflol reverse? backpeddling in pvp? gg

seen: sheeping in 1v1 are considered noobish for the mage even if he win. regardless sheeping provides a fire mage an insane ammount of advantage. especially if they have pom + AP, its almost as if once you get the sheep done, and ur pyro is caster, the word win is written all over that fight. because of that, top tiered mages do not sheep at all unless its 1vN (vs multiple numbers of enemies alone)

myremi: sorry sorry, hectic day at work and seeing such *ahem* posted on forums makes my blood boil even more lol. but yea, what you said, why compared urself against some scrub, does you no good, and makes you look bad.

i mean, whats the use for comparing urself against some noob you win against him 10/10. if you ask me, i would compare myself against some pro that just handed my ass to me, and set myself a goal to hand him his ass someday and move on to the next better player, thats how you keep improving.

sets84: and my point of argument here is that holy priest CAN beat a warlock, it may not be easy but it can be done. ive personally witnessed MANY top tiered holy priests schooling top tiered warlocks. the warlock simply do not have enough mana to outlast the priest, that or their burst is not good enough to school the priest before the heal spam commence. surely, they can do awesome bursts with soulfire crits... immo conflag crits, shadow burn crits yadayada. but cmon, realistically, a warlock's crits are not all to reliable. if they dont crit, roll over and die? just have to continue the fight with consistancy from there on.

i'm shock to see you apologizing. LOL ! no offense taken.

there's a good reason why I don't say anything about PvP. reason is that i don't pvp well. >.< maybe one day. maybe.

interesting write-ups by all.

jus learn from mistakes...
dat's wat i always do wen i die in pvp...
u die tons of times doesn't make u a noob...

Bah! Just follow my rogue's pvp strategy

Stealth->follow person->watch person fight->follow some more->watch person fight some more->keep on following->watch person sit down and eat->ambush & vanish.

Simple no?

and i can tell you i have never seen a GOOD warlock be it destro or affliction lose to a holy priest. let's put aside ua locks, they eat holy priests for breakfasts... but for destro locks, nope... not under any circumstances should they lose to a holy priest, a disc priest "maybe" but not a holy priest... first rule of the lock book, take a felhunter against a priest. no matter what spec they are. how are u in any way gona beat a destro priest with 30% proc chance to immunity to shadow and shadow ward? a nicely geared 70 destro priest in blues can easily get 20% crit chance on their destruction spells, and i'd say that's a pretty good amount. so what spells are u left with? holy? ur open to being spell locked if u cast a holy spell too long and even a smite takes 2.5 secs to cast....

from my experience i have never gone oom while playing my lock (which is affliction) even when goin against 2 v 1 , where one of them is a holy priest.

like I said in BG and in solo gank spot, I never met a lock with fel puppy, I think the chances you meet a holy priest wonder in bg/outdoor = 1%? a rogue hide behind a bush and jump on you = 60%? (its true... i got ganked by rogue the most)

I guess no one even bother to read how I beat mage/lock just jump to Priest can't beat lock/mage. sigh... I kept saying a priest cast smite 1v1 is a dead priest but no one reads em... whatever then, I believe no one here actually plays a priest, anyway goodluck ganking priest.

However Quaz mentioned ppl tank Onyxia Nakedly? I'm not sure how that can be done? 0 Armor and 0 FR? please let me know how they do that? if he is naked how much HP he has? won't Onyx just 1~2 shot him?

I wanna eat KFC

shadow ward and shadow immunity doesnt overrule a priest's ability to survive your attacks, and if anything, holy dmg isnt limited to smite... you WILL get feared after the 1st/2nd trinket/WOTF, and one feared, trinket holy fire is capable of critting upwards of 3-5k++ and a dot too with trinket + PI. and ive fought priests that deals ~800-1k holy nova HIT, yes HIT. spammed on my face, and dont forget, hnova heals the priest too. thats PRE BC. post bc? i dont even wanna know, but then again, i got CLOS and ms % based wound poisons, so it shouldnt be that bad now.

and you ownself mention ur crit 20%... imo, thats low...avg heavy pvp destro locks roll with 20-30% ish crit including talents, pve destro locks usually even have more % crits, either that or a ton more +spelldmg. and even so, once you have resilience slap in ur face, they all mean nothing.

also, unless ur something wierd like MD destro, ur not gonna be able to summon a 2nd felpup out, and what would that mean? priest swp + hnova/hfire/smite ur felpup and you can kiss its ass goodbye, and dont even think about resummoning it, you wont. unless the priest didnt invest a lil bit of shadow for silence/flay/blackout/imp fear, then its the priest fault as they are great pvp assets even being holy or disc.

shopboy: only 4-5k hp raid buffed naked tanks, they do wear unsee-able items such as rings/necks/trinkets etc. and some of them put on cape to look extra retarded, and of course have weap + shield so they can use their aggro skills. at the end of the day, its good fraps/screenshot material, seeing someone in undies and crap tanking huge ass raid bosses /lol

onyxia can 2 shot the tank, so healings have to be insanely top notch btw. bad breath + melee strings = gg tank
if im not mistaken, those groups wiped an assload before actually succeeding.