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 Is Windows SP2 secure enough?, Without the other updates.

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natakaasd
post Mar 13 2007, 04:02 PM

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QUOTE
if you remove them it makes your situation unknown, coz now you don't know what you have or haven't installed - not from the add or remove. don't know about you, i rather know what is in than keeping it mysterious.

Heard of Everest Ultimate Edition? You get to see ALL your Patches even without the uninstallers. smile.gif

QUOTE
i know all that...thats why i don't use windows HELP, if i want to read the ms official "KB" i go for it directly. and go google for third-party forums and you'll find more readable, clearer explanation. ms websites are b0rked-frames anyways.

Dang. I didn't say Windows' In Built Knowledge Base. i am refering to Help Files that comes with Third-Party Programs. Some are too Unpopular to have forums made for them, or anyone to discuss.

QUOTE
Ah! trojans are your-own-faults things. did you download cracks? did you use IE to browse and OE to read mail? if you had a firewall on in the first place the trojans would have blocked/alerted by the fw. i wonder if anyone collect data on how many PC IE "helped" to infect worldwide? i only patch MS Servers and server-related programs such as MSSQL and because applications specify that as requirements.

At that time, I was pure enough not to download cracks. I used Firefox and Had a Firewall called ZoneAlarm, which was very good then. biggrin.gif

QUOTE
"if it ain't broke, don't fix it." anyways, i've seen many PCs with patches with many virus/trojans on the same PCs at the same time.

You don't get it, do you? Virus IS NOT Worm. Trojan IS NOT Worm either. Worm uses Loop Holes to Fool Around, Not viruses or Trojans. Patches block Worms, not Viruses. Go read up the MS KB more often, if you do that as you mentioned it. wink.gif

Cheers!
havuk
post Mar 13 2007, 05:05 PM

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Patches & Updates are there for a reason. Better safe than sorry.
I know most of us use 'ehem' versions of Windows so the real problem is the WGA.

Try AutoPatcher if you want to update without the WGA hassle.
Skylinestar
post Mar 13 2007, 06:41 PM

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if sp2 is secure, what's the purpose of the updates? doh.gif
jcheong
post Mar 13 2007, 06:45 PM

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QUOTE(Skylinestar @ Mar 13 2007, 06:41 PM)
if sp2 is secure, what's the purpose of the updates? doh.gif
*
Well some updates are made for noobs and those who regularly install viruses (cracks/email attachments). Have friends who havn't updated and never got any viruses. These updates make the computer really slow.

This post has been edited by jcheong: Mar 13 2007, 06:48 PM
goldfries
post Mar 13 2007, 06:49 PM

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QUOTE(natakaasd @ Mar 11 2007, 10:14 AM)
What's the fuss then? The fuss is, certain Help Files Goes Online, to get updated info, or graphics. OR Worst still, to download files through invisible iFrames or so. Imagine an Unpatched IE Surfing. No doubt, Your firewall will make noise like "HH.EXE is attempting to connect to the internet" "Compiled Help File Reader is attempting to connect to Trusted Zone" etc. You block. Happy. But, certain vulnerabilities like unseeable iFrames are damn unseeable. Period.


IMO getting updated info and graphics is find, assuming this is Windows getting stuff from Microsoft and showing the user. smile.gif

unpatched IE for browsing? yes, there's vulnerability issues. visiting legitimate sites is fine but the problem comes when you're googling information and you have to open many sites - this is when an unpatched IE might be dangerous.

alternatively you can disable some parts of IE so that it doesn't run scripts.

EDITED : IMO security issues' greatest problem is always the user.

This post has been edited by goldfries: Mar 13 2007, 06:52 PM
natakaasd
post Mar 13 2007, 07:28 PM

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QUOTE(goldfries @ Mar 13 2007, 06:49 PM)
IMO getting updated info and graphics is find, assuming this is Windows getting stuff from Microsoft and showing the user. smile.gif

unpatched IE for browsing? yes, there's vulnerability issues. visiting legitimate sites is fine but the problem comes when you're googling information and you have to open many sites - this is when an unpatched IE might be dangerous.

alternatively you can disable some parts of IE so that it doesn't run scripts.

EDITED : IMO security issues' greatest problem is always the user.
*
I just like it when you reply. Always full of facts that I missed to mention. laugh.gif

Disabling parts of IE that doesn't run scripts. True, especially ActiveX and Flash. (But I always leave my Flash on. laugh.gif ) Java Scripts are the next Culprits, though (Worst still, I leave Javascripts enabled. I am so terrible, ain't I? LOL laugh.gif ).

Security Issues are always started by the user (Always). No doubt, I respect the fact that beezlebob's computer is unpatched and unscathed. But, why not play the cards safe? wink.gif [I know, different people, different perspective, different way of doing things. Don't have to remind me on that. laugh.gif ]

Cheers! icon_rolleyes.gif

EDIT: TYPO

This post has been edited by natakaasd: Mar 13 2007, 07:30 PM
SUSdattebayo
post Mar 14 2007, 01:55 AM

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QUOTE(natakaasd @ Mar 9 2007, 07:11 PM)
Worst advice in the whole group of recompiled advices.  shakehead.gif

DO YOU KNOW THAT:-
IE is part of the OS? Even though you don't touch IE, Windows itself needs IE to run certain programs/processes/modules etc?

DO YOU KNOW THAT:-
An unpatched IE is just as BAD as an unpatched Windows?

Go think it over before talking.

I will not pursue any further. Cheers!
*
part of OS?? this has become history as IE7 came out last year yawn.gif
you no longer can access IE from explorer address bar even in XP with IE7 installed
natakaasd
post Mar 15 2007, 11:18 AM

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QUOTE(dattebayo @ Mar 14 2007, 01:55 AM)
part of OS?? this has become history as IE7 came out last year yawn.gif
you no longer can access IE from explorer address bar even in XP with IE7 installed
*
History it might be, but tell me how many would have the time to migrate to IE7? I am pretty sure there are still quite a number of people who are still stuck with IE6. Cheers!
error
post Mar 15 2007, 11:57 AM

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well from my point of view, updates / patches are actually good. at least the software company is still doing their job to best protect their assets. However, from my past experience, to me to perform regularly update ( in this case, Windows XP ) is not a necessary ritual/routine for me anymore. Well here's my reasons :

before that, i only patch till SP2 and the irritating trojans like sasser / blaster which really gives me troubles. I used a router but that's not very secure as well. It only helps to block trojans like blaster / sasser. Then, i do not have software firewall or antivirus, i even turn off windows firewall, no windows defender etc.

ok back to reasons:
1) Yes i'm a pc literate people, i do know how things works ( in this case, i know how virus,trojan,worms,any rubbishes works not fully but sufficient to protect myself )

2) I use non-IE browsers. Based on the current trends, MOST (not all) attacks through IE regardless on what type of "intruders". I did encounter the LAN type of viruses, but not a problem for me as well after i took some neccessary actions ( but not updating or patching ). The executable file based viruses are not common now. But usually it is easily detectable by the filename, time and date created etc. For me, i won't simple execute any unknown file ever.

3) MOST( not all again) of the viruses/worms/trojan are not very destructive compared to the previous generation of virus. They just screw up your windows only but not the bios/harddisk/MBR/filesystem. So i don't really care and usually i can fix it up without formatting.

4) Yea, sometimes it will slows down the system after updates. Firewall and antivirus make it even worst.

but beware, I chose this decision becoz i do know how to protect my pc without any patches/updates/protections. If you do not have the confidence, then please do patch. No harm doing that.

This post has been edited by error: Mar 15 2007, 12:04 PM
bean_man
post Mar 15 2007, 11:57 AM

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QUOTE(natakaasd @ Mar 15 2007, 11:18 AM)
History it might be, but tell me how many would have the time to migrate to IE7? I am pretty sure there are still quite a number of people who are still stuck with IE6. Cheers!
*
whistling.gif Me...i'm still on IE6. Never installed it. I have auto update on and i just cancelled install new IE. Don't want to install it unless i'm forced to. It looks very messy and worst of all it slows the browsing experience tremendously.
I'll stick to Firefox and save some hard disk space....for now tongue.gif
beelzebob13
post Mar 21 2007, 02:28 PM

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QUOTE(natakaasd @ Mar 13 2007, 04:02 PM)
Heard of Everest Ultimate Edition? You get to see ALL your Patches even without the uninstallers. smile.gif
Dang. I didn't say Windows' In Built Knowledge Base. i am refering to Help Files that comes with Third-Party Programs. Some are too Unpopular to have forums made for them, or anyone to discuss.
At that time, I was pure enough not to download cracks. I used Firefox and Had a Firewall called ZoneAlarm, which was very good then. biggrin.gif
You don't get it, do you? Virus IS NOT Worm. Trojan IS NOT Worm either. Worm uses Loop Holes to Fool Around, Not viruses or Trojans. Patches block Worms, not Viruses. Go read up the MS KB more often, if you do that as you mentioned it. wink.gif

Cheers!
*
sorry for the late reply - i didn't think a reply was necessary.

everest? sure heard but why use another software?

help files from 3rd party software? if they want to "call home" my firewall will block them. always use a firewall - it is like dropping its pants if your PC don't wear a firewall.

too unpopular software? why use them? they are probably not worth the download or the bother, too buggy, no forums discussions?

i was talking about MS KB and MS OS only. you sidestep into 3rd parties? lets just talk about MS and how safe it is all right?

i know what is a virus and a worm and a trojan: i can google too or you don't think i am capable of doing just that and literate enough to understand what i read?

you use firefox?...why? just use the patched IE if you are so confident that patching is good?

my point again, which you do not seem to get : do not use MS software like IE, OE, Messenger. patch them if you like but do NOT use them. don't trust them. don't depend on them. don't touch them with a 10-foot pole. whistling.gif

This post has been edited by beelzebob13: Mar 21 2007, 02:30 PM
natakaasd
post Mar 21 2007, 03:50 PM

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QUOTE(beelzebob13 @ Mar 21 2007, 02:28 PM)
sorry for the late reply - i didn't think a reply was necessary.

everest? sure heard but why use another software?

help files from 3rd party software? if they want to "call home" my firewall will block them. always use a firewall - it is like dropping its pants if your PC don't wear a firewall.

too unpopular software? why use them? they are probably not worth the download or the bother, too buggy, no forums discussions?

i was talking about MS KB and MS OS only. you sidestep into 3rd parties? lets just talk about MS and how safe it is all right?

i know what is a virus and a worm and a trojan: i can google too or you don't think i am capable of doing just that and literate enough to understand what i read?

you use firefox?...why? just use the patched IE if you are so confident that patching is good?

my point again, which you do not seem to get : do not use MS software like IE, OE, Messenger. patch them if you like but do NOT use them. don't trust them. don't depend on them. don't touch them with a 10-foot pole. whistling.gif
*
If you think a reply is not necessary, DON'T DO SO NEXT TIME. shakehead.gif

If a download is not worth downloading, I wouldn't bother to download. I download because I need to use it. Simple.

Talking about MS KB Only? Please friend. CHM Files IS NOT ONLY about MS KBs. Stop twisting things to your favor. CHM Files are IN The computer AND Might Access To outside Content. Who cares if MS KB is stuck-up inside the Computer itself and wishes to TALK Outside?! By the way, Windows Help (Incorporated) Is NOT CHM Files. Stop misleading others. shakehead.gif

You Google. Good. You Read. Good. You understand. VERY Good. Don't have to Snap at me. smile.gif

I patch IE because I still need to use IE. IETab still uses the IE Engine. IE-whatever still need the IE Engine. If not, There won't be an IE Prefix. PERIOD. laugh.gif

If you can't trust MS Programs in the first place, DON'T Use MS Windows AT ALL. Go Linux. I trust their (MS) updates. I update. I use MS. SIMPLE. Why make a Big Hoo-Hah over This Ideology Issue??

No offense. Cheers!
eXPeri3nc3
post Mar 21 2007, 05:07 PM

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QUOTE(dattebayo @ Mar 14 2007, 01:55 AM)
part of OS?? this has become history as IE7 came out last year yawn.gif
you no longer can access IE from explorer address bar even in XP with IE7 installed
*
I am still using IE 6. So?

QUOTE(beelzebob13 @ Mar 21 2007, 02:28 PM)
sorry for the late reply - i didn't think a reply was necessary.

everest? sure heard but why use another software?

help files from 3rd party software? if they want to "call home" my firewall will block them. always use a firewall - it is like dropping its pants if your PC don't wear a firewall.

too unpopular software? why use them? they are probably not worth the download or the bother, too buggy, no forums discussions?

i was talking about MS KB and MS OS only. you sidestep into 3rd parties? lets just talk about MS and how safe it is all right?

i know what is a virus and a worm and a trojan: i can google too or you don't think i am capable of doing just that and literate enough to understand what i read?

you use firefox?...why? just use the patched IE if you are so confident that patching is good?

my point again, which you do not seem to get : do not use MS software like IE, OE, Messenger. patch them if you like but do NOT use them. don't trust them. don't depend on them. don't touch them with a 10-foot pole. whistling.gif
*
O' rilly? Why you're using Windows then? icon_idea.gif


beelzebob13
post Mar 23 2007, 12:26 PM

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QUOTE(natakaasd @ Mar 21 2007, 03:50 PM)
If you think a reply is not necessary, DON'T DO SO NEXT TIME. shakehead.gif

If a download is not worth downloading, I wouldn't bother to download. I download because I need to use it. Simple.

Talking about MS KB Only? Please friend. CHM Files IS NOT ONLY about MS KBs. Stop twisting things to your favor. CHM Files are IN The computer AND Might Access To outside Content. Who cares if MS KB is stuck-up inside the Computer itself and wishes to TALK Outside?! By the way, Windows Help (Incorporated) Is NOT CHM Files. Stop misleading others. shakehead.gif

You Google. Good. You Read. Good. You understand. VERY Good. Don't have to Snap
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

No offense. Cheers!
*
no reply was necessary because your points were outside the scope. however, you might take a non-reply as an affirmation to your views. the original TS's question was about patches and patching OS - not about KBs or CHMs.

edit:
QUOTE
Reason is these latest updates makes Windows XP crawl.
i explained why and how his WinXP does not have to crawl.

my point, in case you missed it again, was patches or no it doesn't matter if, IF, if you make full use of security software such as firewall, anti-virus, anti-anything and consider your own behaviour on the Internet. with these "add-ons", MS OS is no longer "just" MS OS right? it is enhanced.

why don't you uninstall all non-ms security software from your PC but patch everything and see how long your PC will survive on the Internet?

what the "IETab"? no wait...don't answer that - who cares.

i'm misleading people? i think you are doing exactly the same thing and an ms fanboy with blurred single perspective too boot. no-offense friend. have a nice day.

edit 2: so my short answer to the TS is yes your XPsp2 can be secured without patches that makes it crawl for an IT literate person (therefore, he/she can make full use of non-ms security software)

edit 3: here are a 2 articles, the part 2 is relevant to the question.
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=38372 (part 1)
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=38419 (part 2)

excerpts of these fairly long but very informative articles :

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


This post has been edited by beelzebob13: Mar 23 2007, 02:06 PM
natakaasd
post Mar 23 2007, 02:09 PM

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QUOTE(beelzebob13 @ Mar 23 2007, 12:26 PM)
no reply was necessary because your points were outside the scope. however, you might take a non-reply as an affirmation to your views. the original TS's question was about patches and patching OS - not about KBs or CHMs.

edit:
i explained why and how his WinXP does not have to crawl.

my point, in case you missed it again, was patches or no it doesn't matter if, IF, if you make full use of security software such as firewall, anti-virus, anti-anything and consider your own behaviour on the Internet. with these "add-ons", MS OS is no longer "just" MS OS right? it is enhanced.

why don't you uninstall all non-ms security software from your PC but patch everything and see how long your PC will survive on the Internet?

what the "IETab"? no wait...don't answer that - who cares.

i'm misleading people?  i think you are doing exactly the same thing and an ms fanboy with blurred single perspective too boot. no-offense friend. have a nice day.

edit 2: so my short answer to the TS is yes your XPsp2 can be secured without patches that makes it crawl for an IT literate person (therefore, he/she can make full use of non-ms security software)
*
If CHMs are Not an issue in Patches, MS's Patches count would drop from 6 per month to 4 per month or so. What is all that "Help Text Rendering Vulnerability" etc (An example only, real title, go read yourself)? What is the point of having IE Patches in the first place?

Yeah right. AV, AM etc. No patch. Let's See how Anti-Viruses will play with a Sasser that loves to Shut Down computers or so. Dang. shakehead.gif

If I am a MS Fanboy, I wouldn't even suggest using Linux. PERIOD. I give credit to MS as I am using it. That's all. If I am a MS Fanboy, I would have said that Windows Defender can out beat every AV out there. Did I say that? NO. Obviously, you ought to reconsider the definition for fanboyism.

Last but not least, if you feel that what I say is OUT OF SCOPE (which isn't the case), say so. Then tell me why it is out of scope. Don't go sulking and say something like "I don't think a reply is necessary". You are inviting yourself to misunderstandings. PERIOD.

No offense. Cheers to all.

P.S. (EDIT) Talking about crawling. My PC BEFORE and AFTER Patching DOES NOT Crawl. In fact, there is NO change in Speed. For me, the AVs and Other Shields affects the crawling. Compare between Norton and NOD32, you get what I mean.

@TS, if you are afraid of crawls, you should consider:-
1. Defragmenting your drive BEFORE Updates.
2. Clearing up Unnecessary Files (including Temporary Internet Files) Before DEFRAGMENTING
3. Boost Memory (RAM). 256MB on XP is a definite Crawler. I am on 1GB. Guess What, it only Cost a total of RM300. If it were to be in 1990+, It would cost you RM 1000+++. Memory Prices has drop, there shouldn't be a fuss. nod.gif

Cheers Again.

EDIT 2 (P.S. 2) Talking about Long Excerpts. They prove my fact, don't they? And this is about WinXP, not Vista. Please read closely. rolleyes.gif

This post has been edited by natakaasd: Mar 23 2007, 02:18 PM
TSseveneleven
post Mar 24 2007, 08:54 PM

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This is a very informative thread.

natakaasd, well there are differences in windows response to copying, opening files and RAM usage as I've noticed some security services are activated. It wouldn't effect much if it were on the new CPUs, but fixing old P3 customers PCs and even on my own Sempron 2800+ I could feel the difference in boot time and application process/load time. You have to sacrifice speed for security in some cases though. BTW, thanks for the tips nod.gif

This post has been edited by seveneleven: Mar 24 2007, 08:55 PM
eXPeri3nc3
post Mar 24 2007, 09:21 PM

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QUOTE(seveneleven @ Mar 24 2007, 08:54 PM)
This is a very informative thread.

natakaasd, well there are differences in windows response to copying, opening files and RAM usage as I've noticed some security services are activated. It wouldn't effect much if it were on the new CPUs, but fixing old P3 customers PCs and even on my own Sempron 2800+ I could feel the difference in boot time and application process/load time. You have to sacrifice speed for security in some cases though. BTW, thanks for the tips nod.gif
*
I would say, you ought to sacrifice speed for security. nod.gif
That's what I did to my PIII machine at home, at least I have decent protection for my computer.
natakaasd
post Mar 25 2007, 12:07 PM

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QUOTE(seveneleven @ Mar 24 2007, 08:54 PM)
This is a very informative thread.

natakaasd, well there are differences in windows response to copying, opening files and RAM usage as I've noticed some security services are activated. It wouldn't effect much if it were on the new CPUs, but fixing old P3 customers PCs and even on my own Sempron 2800+ I could feel the difference in boot time and application process/load time. You have to sacrifice speed for security in some cases though. BTW, thanks for the tips nod.gif
*
Informative? laugh.gif

FYI, I wouldn't want to sound sarcastic or anything, but, try having SP2 on a P2 Machine. laugh.gif It works. Not to say, It is only on 256 MB RAM, 4 GB HDD. It does not lag. It does not crash. I made it. icon_rolleyes.gif

If you really want to Sacrifice Security for Speed, I will not comment. But, thumbs up on Experience's Statement. He made my statement clear. Between Security and Speed, I will take Security. (Not that I am paranoid, but, why allow nasties to be nasty, when you can tame them?)

Take my previous advice. If you are starting from scratch, Install your Windows. DISABLE System Restore. Defragment. Update. THEN, Reenable System Restore. (Provided you know whether the updates will cause havoc or not. I never had that problem. smile.gif )

Always make sure that you have minimal clutter and fragmentation. Updating will not be a glitch. If you want to have speed AND security, Get NOD32. It is (as usual, I hate repeating biggrin.gif ) one of the fastest AV around, and it is quite accurate (Compared to Kaspersky and BitDefender [I still don't trust BD], NOD32 is a quite high performer).

Hopefully, you get your answers in one piece. wink.gif Cheers to all and no offense. cheers.gif

EDIT: There is a controversy on whether to Switch ON or OFF System Restore especially during Updating and Malware Removal. I only give a tip, but do not take it whole-heartedly. If you would like to play safe, leave it alone(as in ON). Cheers!

This post has been edited by natakaasd: Mar 25 2007, 12:09 PM

 

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