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 Is Tyre part of "Handling"

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SUSadvocado
post Mar 24 2017, 04:35 PM, updated 8y ago

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So we a small bunch of us were having a discussion about Handling & Grip and there's 2 claims:

A Claims that Tyre = Grip, but Tyre is also considered part of the car's handling because it not just provide "Grip".

B Claims that Tyre = Grip, and is not related to or affect a car's handling.

The reason this discussion came out is we're trying to compare handling of different cars, just normal cornering, not going anywhere near the tyre limits.

A stated to make fair comparison of handling of different cars, apart from same road condition, driver, speed, the cars should be using similar tyres in order to make a fair comparison on the cars' handling.

B stated you don't need to have similar tyres to make a fair comparison because tyres only affect the grip and not the handling of a car, while it's true since we don't go near the tyre's grip limit, and doing simple zigzag or obstacle run would give drivers a good idea a car's handling without taking the tyres into account.

So in short one is claiming tyres need to be taken into account a car's handling, while the other claims tyres don't, so if car A is using Comfort tyres, car B is using Ultra Grip tyres, the journalist should still be able to give a fair review of both car's handling and tyres should not affect the outcome.

what's your take? i know many people agree with B, me too.


6UE5T
post Mar 24 2017, 04:46 PM

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QUOTE(advocado @ Mar 24 2017, 04:35 PM)
So we a small bunch of us were having a discussion about Handling & Grip and there's 2 claims:

A Claims that Tyre = Grip, but Tyre is also considered part of the car's handling because it not just provide "Grip".

B Claims that Tyre = Grip, and is not related to or affect a car's handling.

The reason this discussion came out is we're trying to compare handling of different cars, just normal cornering, not going anywhere near the tyre limits.

A stated to make fair comparison of handling of different cars, apart from same road condition, driver, speed, the cars should be using similar tyres in order to make a fair comparison on the cars' handling.

B stated you don't need to have similar tyres to make a fair comparison because tyres only affect the grip and not the handling of a car, while it's true since we don't go near the tyre's grip limit, and doing simple zigzag or obstacle run would give drivers a good idea a car's handling without taking the tyres into account.

So in short one is claiming tyres need to be taken into account a car's handling, while the other claims tyres don't, so if car A is using Comfort tyres, car B is using Ultra Grip tyres, the journalist should still be able to give a fair review of both car's handling and tyres should not affect the outcome.

what's your take? i know many people agree with B, me too.
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Simple, A is right, B is wrong.
rhenadal
post Mar 24 2017, 04:48 PM

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tayar not to handle one.
use for rolling one.
SUSadvocado
post Mar 24 2017, 10:19 PM

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QUOTE(6UE5T @ Mar 24 2017, 04:46 PM)
Simple, A is right, B is wrong.
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Care to clarify why a is right?
6UE5T
post Mar 25 2017, 12:21 AM

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QUOTE(advocado @ Mar 24 2017, 10:19 PM)
Care to clarify why a is right?
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Let me ask you first, what does 'handling' means??
SUSadvocado
post Mar 25 2017, 06:18 AM

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QUOTE(6UE5T @ Mar 25 2017, 12:21 AM)
Let me ask you first, what does 'handling' means??
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How a car reacts in maneuvers. Of course with grip it helps a car corner faster.
ktek
post Mar 25 2017, 09:48 AM

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taya grip is part of handling. less performing taya make u over steer and under steer = mark as bad liao.

also jelly taya that will not follow the steering angle.

unless u test in one situation. low speed lo.
then u are not testing the handling. just driver feel /driving feel.
ooohhhh less roll good. oohhhh fast steering good. pickup too slow bad x2. difficult uturn bad x3

handling test should have an objective. constant speed to perform xyz action. as long taya holding = good. otherwise fail.

2sen

This post has been edited by ktek: Mar 25 2017, 09:57 AM
[Ancient]-XinG-
post Mar 25 2017, 09:49 AM

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Lol. In k/ ask this question still not enough and want come here to show your stupidity.

You just simply don't understand the whole struts, absorber, and suspension linkage system.

How you define your handling?
6UE5T
post Mar 26 2017, 01:55 AM

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QUOTE(advocado @ Mar 25 2017, 06:18 AM)
How a car reacts in maneuvers. Of course with grip it helps a car corner faster.
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Then you should know your answer already. laugh.gif
SUSadvocado
post Mar 26 2017, 02:29 PM

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QUOTE(6UE5T @ Mar 26 2017, 01:55 AM)
Then you should know your answer already.  laugh.gif
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so you also agree with me Tyre only related to Grip?
6UE5T
post Mar 27 2017, 01:23 PM

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QUOTE(advocado @ Mar 26 2017, 02:29 PM)
so you also agree with me Tyre only related to Grip?
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You're wrong, I told you my answer above already la.
Actchan
post Mar 27 2017, 03:54 PM

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QUOTE(advocado @ Mar 23 2017, 12:37 PM)
I hear so many people praise about despite how bad Proton cars are, their handling is top class compared to other vehicles.

When i hear that, i diam diam je. coz i know how Proton cars drive, maybe i don't know how Preve or Suprima or Perdana drive like, but i know how Proton cars generally drive like.

Lotus played such small part in Proton's car they mainly just tune the suspensions, and for suspensions there is only so much you can do about it. Easiest way is to slap on a decent tyre to improve the handling, however Proton decides to slap on the cheapest economy tyre they can so your car drives like roller skate on ice.


Maybe i never driven Kancil or Myvi or Vios or City so i don't know how to appreciate the superior handling of Proton.
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Bro , i'm sure that you are very clear about what is the meaning of handling .

Vehicle handling generally referred to how a car responds when it turns. A car with better handling can go around corners or turns at higher speeds and is less likely to lose control/traction .

Are you try to debate somethings ?

Eg : expensive tyre vs economic tyre on grip perform 🤔
SUSadvocado
post Mar 27 2017, 09:06 PM

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QUOTE(Actchan @ Mar 27 2017, 03:54 PM)
Bro , i'm sure that you are very clear about what is the meaning of handling .

Vehicle handling generally referred to how a car responds when it turns. A car with better handling can go around corners or turns at higher speeds and is less likely to lose control/traction .

Are you try to debate somethings ?

Eg : expensive tyre vs economic tyre on grip perform 🤔
*
i'm insisting tyre has nothing to do with a car's handling which is determined by the car design itself not including the tyres.

so when a journalist is reviewing few car's handling (not taking extreme corners), doing simple maneuvers like slalom obstacles at normal speed, would be able to tell which car has better handling despite those cars all having different types of tyres.

tyres merely affect the grip which affect how fast a car can turn in a corner, but not really affect the car's handling which is more about chassis/weight/CG/suspension and any anti roll bars etc.

in those discussion most folks drive a Proton, in which they have most likely swapped out the original stock tyres, and then compare Proton cars against other branded equivalent cars either a friends car (female friend/company car/test drive unit). so one idiot is insisting that it is unfair to compare cars handling based on different types of tyres (stock vs higher grade) and it's only fair if all cars tested are using equivalent tyres. most of us don't agree with that idiot.
raayeop
post Mar 27 2017, 09:52 PM

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QUOTE(advocado @ Mar 27 2017, 09:06 PM)
i'm insisting tyre has nothing to do with a car's handling which is determined by the car design itself not including the tyres.

so when a journalist is reviewing few car's handling (not taking extreme corners), doing simple maneuvers like slalom obstacles at normal speed, would be able to tell which car has better handling despite those cars all having different types of tyres.

tyres merely affect the grip which affect how fast a car can turn in a corner, but not really affect the car's handling which is more about chassis/weight/CG/suspension and any anti roll bars etc.

in those discussion most folks drive a Proton, in which they have most likely swapped out the original stock tyres, and then compare Proton cars against other branded equivalent cars either a friends car (female friend/company car/test drive unit). so one idiot is insisting that it is unfair to compare cars handling based on different types of tyres (stock vs higher grade) and it's only fair if all cars tested are using equivalent tyres. most of us don't agree with that idiot.
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take one standard proton car... hire one driver (the stig) if you can.. first, ask him to do 4 hot laps at sepang with caplang tyre costing rm100 each... then time it.. then, swap the tyre to say Michelin PS3... ask him to do 4 hot laps.... look at the time... then ask him whether the tyres affect the handling or not...
Just my 2 sen...
SUSadvocado
post Mar 27 2017, 10:01 PM

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QUOTE(raayeop @ Mar 27 2017, 09:52 PM)
take one standard proton car... hire one driver (the stig) if you can.. first, ask him to do 4 hot laps at sepang with caplang tyre costing rm100 each... then time it.. then, swap the tyre to say Michelin PS3... ask him to do 4 hot laps.... look at the time... then ask him whether the tyres affect the handling or not...
Just my 2 sen...
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like most of us already said, the faster lap time is due to the "Grip" of the performance tyre. however the Handling has little to do with tyres. Better tyres offer more grip before reaching the limit, however a car's handling will remain the same.
Actchan
post Mar 27 2017, 10:56 PM

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QUOTE(advocado @ Mar 27 2017, 09:06 PM)
i'm insisting tyre has nothing to do with a car's handling which is determined by the car design itself not including the tyres.

so when a journalist is reviewing few car's handling (not taking extreme corners), doing simple maneuvers like slalom obstacles at normal speed, would be able to tell which car has better handling despite those cars all having different types of tyres.

tyres merely affect the grip which affect how fast a car can turn in a corner, but not really affect the car's handling which is more about chassis/weight/CG/suspension and any anti roll bars etc.


in those discussion most folks drive a Proton, in which they have most likely swapped out the original stock tyres, and then compare Proton cars against other branded equivalent cars either a friends car (female friend/company car/test drive unit). so one idiot is insisting that it is unfair to compare cars handling based on different types of tyres (stock vs higher grade) and it's only fair if all cars tested are using equivalent tyres. most of us don't agree with that idiot.
*
From your quote said that your friend try to debate dont judge the car handling if not test on equivalent tyre .

He got his point when speed over 60kph on slalom test .

You do not agreed with his debate on equivalent tyre talk , because you think tyre only play small roll on grip but not effect much on handling when low/normal speed .

Ermm ... if speed below 60kph . You got your point too .


From my point of view , tyre is the major parts which effect the handling most , and then cornering and stoping . Beside the grip traction effect by tread pattern , the tyre inflated pressure and size of wheel also directly affect the handling characteristic of the vehicle .

Long story short now , this kind of debate should put a speed limit at the main point . lets say 60kph , ok ?

I believe most tyres in our market is equivalent performance at low speed .

Base on low speed theory , the same segment car should give the equivalent handling .

Unless the stated speed limit is different , or else this debate will nothing to bias . Winwin situation , should be fine 🙄


SUSadvocado
post Mar 27 2017, 11:02 PM

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QUOTE(Actchan @ Mar 27 2017, 10:56 PM)
From your quote said that your friend try to debate dont judge the car handling if not test on equivalent tyre .

He got his point when speed over 60kph on slalom test .

You do not agreed with his debate on equivalent tyre talk , because you think tyre only play small roll on grip but not effect much on handling when low/normal speed .

Ermm ...  if speed below 60kph . You got your point too .
From my point of view , tyre is the major parts which effect the handling most , and then cornering and stoping . Beside the grip traction effect by tread pattern , the tyre inflated pressure and size of wheel also directly affect the handling characteristic of the vehicle .

Long story short now , this kind of debate should put a speed limit at the main point . lets say 60kph , ok ? 

I believe most tyres in our market is equivalent performance at low speed .

Base on low speed theory , the same segment car should give the equivalent handling .

Unless the stated speed limit is different , or else this debate will nothing to bias . Winwin situation , should be fine 🙄
*
well i beg to differ, at 60kph, doing slalom, different cars would react differently, even same class, due to the chassis rigidness, suspension, and Center of Gravity, some cars would roll more than others even at 60kph. however the tyre grips should be able to handle most of the cars irregardless type of rubber. more weight shift means the car would react slower with same steering input as the suspension need to recover from the weight shift.
6UE5T
post Mar 27 2017, 11:39 PM

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QUOTE(advocado @ Mar 27 2017, 10:01 PM)
like most of us already said, the faster lap time is due to the "Grip" of the performance tyre. however the Handling has little to do with tyres. Better tyres offer more grip before reaching the limit, however a car's handling will remain the same.
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First of all read your question carefully: is tire part of "handling"? So it's not about whether only tire determines the handling of the car but is it part of, meaning one of many aspects that can determine or alter the handling of a car, is this correct understanding first??

Now if we already agree on the question, now let me ask you this, is grip part of handling?? If the car have poor grip for whatever reason, would you say the car has poor handling too?? Let's analyse the possible scenarios in more detail with similar questions for you to answer:
- If the car has an oversteer characteristic (more grip in the front axle relative to the rear), would you say it handles with oversteer, no? Now let say I put shit tires with poor grip on the front while put a very good high performance tire with excellent grip at the rear for this type of car, what would the car tend to do now?? Would that alter the way this oversteering car handles?
- Also same case, if the car tends to understeer (more grip in the rear compared to the front) when cornering, would you then also say this car handles with understeer? So then now I put better tires at the front compared to poor tires at the rear of this car, what would happen then??
- Again if the car corners in a very neutral manner, would you say it has neutral handling characteristic, correct? Again if I put unequal performing tires for this car, would that alter the neutral handling, making it either more over/understeer??

If you can answer all those questions (which are basically all the same question but just from different angles), then you should now the answer to your question in the first place. smile.gif
Actchan
post Mar 28 2017, 12:15 AM

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QUOTE(advocado @ Mar 27 2017, 11:02 PM)
well i beg to differ, at 60kph, doing slalom, different cars would react differently, even same class, due to the chassis rigidness, suspension, and Center of Gravity, some cars would roll more than others even at 60kph. however the tyre grips should be able to handle most of the cars irregardless type of rubber. more weight shift means the car would react slower with same steering input as the suspension need to recover from the weight shift.
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Ok bro , lets take the 60kph slalom test as standard .

Yes , you are right different car got different react .

But , dont forget different driver also got different react .

And also different tyre sure give different react , its the only contact surface with the road . So the best way to test out the handling result should use the equivalent tyre .

If you need to specific all the list , tyre type/size will be the 1st priority , second is driver's driving ability , then go on chassis rigid , suspension stiffness , weight curb etcetc car setup .

We cant denied the contribution of tyre , its always come 1st at most the time .

Arguably most of the online slalom test video also didnt specific the tyre spec of the car . But they do differentiate the slalom test speed . From 45kph to 75kph . Result like Car A pass till what speed , car B fail on what speed .

So , whats the point of those test ? They test for safety purpose and trigger the stability control system .

If you insist the tyre not the main factor of car handling , you got no wrong with it too , because the speed is the main factor to affect the result not the tyres , vehicle type , weight or setup is second .

So , the picture is grey now . Tyre , Vehicle setup or speed , which is the main factor ? You may pick your own , but please cross the other decision . 🙄


ktek
post Mar 29 2017, 01:57 AM

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QUOTE(advocado @ Mar 27 2017, 11:02 PM)
well i beg to differ, at 60kph, doing slalom, different cars would react differently, even same class, due to the chassis rigidness, suspension, and Center of Gravity, some cars would roll more than others even at 60kph. however the tyre grips should be able to handle most of the cars irregardless type of rubber. more weight shift means the car would react slower with same steering input as the suspension need to recover from the weight shift.
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chassis rigid, suspensi, cog, roll, weight shift, steering input. these all u mentioned is driving feel. not handling test.

give u a dumb mpv, pilot super griping tyre. go slalom. 70kph
chassis flex, suspensi soft, cog tall, rolling, weight shift, slow react steering. but never buang. this is very good handling.

give u a sport hatch, recycle tyre. go slalom. 70kph
chassis good, suspension tight, cog low, no roll, predicted weight shift, quick steering. but hit most of the cones like bowling, this is very bad handling.

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