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> Questions for Christians and Muslims:, How to avoid hell?

puchongite
post Mar 25 2017, 09:56 AM
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QUOTE(alexkos @ Mar 25 2017, 09:00 AM)
Not bad, i love how you respond. You already try to presuppose God in the question on 'where do we come from?'.

For the sake of readers also (coz simpler is always better, parsimony), i will deal with questions one by one. Forum is a tough place to get thoughts oeganized, especially multiple subpoints are needed.

I try to answer that question. Just logic ok? No presupposition o the supernatural, unobserved phenomenon outside scientific realm. Just observation and fact.

My answer:
Where do i come from? Evolution says i come from ape. Fine, ape comes from where? You will find that by pushing thing to a logical conclusion, we will inevitably reach to the point of 'where does all these stuff come from?'

So all things can be reduced to atom (at this point of scientific finding). Fine, so where does atom come from?

It quickly becomes an idiotic question because of course no one knows where the first atom came from.

People suggest quantum theory. Or intelligent design. Fine. So where is the beginning of all? Big bang? What is before Big Bang? A big void? In the beginning there was nothing, them pom....We have everything.

You will find that the search of truth is a painful one. I suppose a man must answer for himself these three questions

Who am i?
Where do i come from?
Where am i going?

The questions are intentionally personal for each one to answer for himself.

Though i just want to remind the readers that while the answer may be personal, absolute truth does not. It is objective and is outside of our control.

You may chip in on what you think about my response. My answer is not even close to choosing deity as my final answer. I just try to push things to a logical conclusion.

Next question: where are we going?

Again, this question is so broad that I'd love u to try answer it. To be fair, you can request to have me answer it first, if you wish.

To be courteous, it is not good to bash people's comment, especially it is a personal one. I'm saying that to remind myself to be gentle in response. And only constructive comment, not personal assault.

Others can try also.
*

You avoided the questions and the points we discussed and digress it to something else.

If you want to discuss "where are we from and where are we going", maybe you can consider posting them in another thread. But first thing first, we already responded to your posts about "absolute truth exists for not" ( which is also a somewhat digression ).

We only want to say the bible is too far away from being the absolute truth and we standby it.

Now it's your turn to defend why you think the bible is the absolute truth and nothing else !



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alexkos
post Mar 25 2017, 01:57 PM
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QUOTE(puchongite @ Mar 25 2017, 09:56 AM)
You avoided the questions and the points we discussed and digress it to something else.

If you want to discuss "where are we from and where are we going", maybe you can consider posting them in another thread. But first thing first, we already responded to your posts about "absolute truth exists for not" ( which is also a somewhat digression ).

We only want to say the bible is too far away from being the absolute truth and we standby it.

Now it's your turn to defend why you think the bible is the absolute truth and nothing else !
*
Fine.

My defense.

Why the Bible is the absolute truth and nothing else.

The Bible is a special revelation from God. It is indeed written by men, but the writing is inspired.

The authors of the Bible span through 40 some persons, throughout 2000 years gap.

The old testament, which is also the scripture of Judaism, come from Moses, who wrote concerning things even before his own era.

It is through the Bible that mankind make sense of what is divine, what is absolute truth, and who is God, and what is required of us as His creation.

Now i understand that by forcing me to answer this question in front of a secular court like this, i need to present evidence that the Bible is indeed word of God, and not word of man.

I pointed to Jesus resurrection. Eye witness account. As well as the account of the apostles. Also the account from the old testaments foretelling about Jesus the Messiah.

Therefore concerning the truth of Christ being dead, and rose again, i stand before you today to testify that the Scripture, or the Bible, is the absolute truth, the only way God has ordained to those who want to know Him.

Therefore repent, and believe in the gospel, realising your complete inadequacy to come before the Holy God, who alone is Truth, and He shall open your eye to things you couldn't see because of the blindness of this world.

Your science can't save you. Nor your inteliigence. Nor your wisdom, and logic and reasoning. Your science surpresses your conscience, dulls your guilt before the Holy God, and silence you not to question concerning what matters all, where do you come from, where are you going, and who are you.

Your science says that you are evolved from atom. And you are going to disappear into molecule soon after your demise. No, seek the truth, see the grand design of this universe, see how utterly hopeless we are without the aid of the Divine.

Your science can't solve the problem of death. Nor morality. Worse still, relative morality. Who gives you the instinct to know what is right and wrong? DNA? How about love, acceptance, compassion, empathy, mercy, grace, where does it come from? Is it evolved over time?

Consider your eternal destiny, your origin, and seek the truth.

P/s: read the gospel of John. Read it for yourself to judge whether it is the truth or not.

This post has been edited by alexkos: Mar 25 2017, 02:02 PM
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ralfvi
post Mar 25 2017, 02:24 PM
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in simple terms
Follow the Quran and The messenger teachings

Does not worship other beings other than ALLAH
Do good deeds be it small or big

Perfect your morality and compassion towards other people or creature even trees yes you heard it right the moslem were pioneer to spread "love the earth" idea and yes all those terror shit is unlawfull in islam if even one single hurtfull word will be question in the hereafter imagine the judgement if you physically hurt a person or animal without cause.

Does prayer to ALLAH
Does not disobey/neglect your parents more so when they are weak and old
Does not backbite / spread rumours
Does not seek peoples fault

anyway at the end of the day it is up to Allah the almighty god to judge upon us and yes even moslem can go to hell
just going to share a story of a prostitute that helps a thirsty dog and because of that simple good deeds she is rewarded
with heaven perhaps of because god mercy andof her ignorance of the rules .
what is important is your humility and kindness to all as Allah will judge upon us personally but the odds are better
if you follow the right path.

"And Allah increases those who were guided, in guidance, and the enduring good deeds are better to your Lord for reward and better for recourse" 76:19 verse of Maryam/Mary

"And We will inherit him in what he mentions, and he will come to Us alone ( to be judge)" 80:19 verse of Maryam/Mary








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GamersFamilia
post Mar 25 2017, 06:07 PM
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QUOTE(ralfvi @ Mar 25 2017, 02:24 PM)
in simple terms
Follow the Quran and The messenger teachings

Does not worship other beings other than ALLAH
Do good deeds be it small or big

Perfect your morality and compassion towards other people or creature even trees yes you heard it right the moslem were pioneer to spread "love the earth" idea and yes all those terror shit is unlawfull in islam  if even one single hurtfull word will be question in the hereafter imagine the judgement if you physically hurt a person or animal without cause.

Does prayer to ALLAH
Does not disobey/neglect your parents more so when they are weak and old
Does not backbite / spread rumours
Does not seek peoples fault

anyway at the end of the day it is up to Allah the almighty god to judge upon us and yes even moslem can go to hell
just going to share a story of a prostitute that helps a thirsty dog and because of that simple good deeds she is rewarded
with heaven perhaps of because god mercy andof her ignorance of the rules .
what is important is your humility and kindness to all as Allah will judge upon us personally  but the odds are better
if you follow the right path.

"And Allah increases those who were guided, in guidance, and the enduring good deeds are better to your Lord for reward and better for recourse" 76:19 verse of Maryam/Mary

"And We will inherit him in what he mentions, and he will come to Us alone ( to be judge)" 80:19 verse of Maryam/Mary
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well said thumbsup.gif
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puchongite
post Mar 26 2017, 09:04 AM
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QUOTE(alexkos @ Mar 25 2017, 01:57 PM)
Fine.

My defense.

Why the Bible is the absolute truth and nothing else.

The Bible is a special revelation from God. It is indeed written by men, but the writing is inspired.

The authors of the Bible span through 40 some persons, throughout 2000 years gap.

The old testament, which is also the scripture of Judaism, come from Moses, who wrote concerning things even before his own era.

It is through the Bible that mankind make sense of what is divine, what is absolute truth, and who is God, and what is required of us as His creation.

Now i understand that by forcing me to answer this question in front of a secular court like this, i need to present evidence that the Bible is indeed word of God, and not word of man.

I pointed to Jesus resurrection. Eye witness account. As well as the account of the apostles. Also the account from the old testaments foretelling about Jesus the Messiah.

Therefore concerning the truth of Christ being dead, and rose again, i stand before you today to testify that the Scripture, or the Bible, is the absolute truth, the only way God has ordained to those who want to know Him.

Therefore repent, and believe in the gospel, realising your complete inadequacy to come before the Holy God, who alone is Truth, and He shall open your eye to things you couldn't see because of the blindness of this world.

Your science can't save you. Nor your inteliigence. Nor your wisdom, and logic and reasoning. Your science surpresses your conscience, dulls your guilt before the Holy God, and silence you not to question concerning what matters all, where do you come from, where are you going, and who are you.

Your science says that you are evolved from atom. And you are going to disappear into molecule soon after your demise. No, seek the truth, see the grand design of this universe, see how utterly hopeless we are without the aid of the Divine.

Your science can't solve the problem of death. Nor morality. Worse still, relative morality. Who gives you the instinct to know what is right and wrong? DNA? How about love, acceptance, compassion, empathy, mercy, grace, where does it come from? Is it evolved over time?

Consider your eternal destiny, your origin, and seek the truth.

P/s: read the gospel of John. Read it for yourself to judge whether it is the truth or not.
*
That's another digression.

What science can do and cannot do are all off topic.

You claim absolute truth and we disputed it. We provided our head on dispute, such as contradiction, errors and empty extra ordinary claims. You can't directly counter our arguments it means you failed to defend it and others (such as Islam) can make similar absolute claims. Any tom dick and harry can make the claims of absolute truth.

That makes your claims effectively empty claims, tai chek kong. Perhaps only the psychologically weak or mentally gullible people believe in them.

This post has been edited by puchongite: Mar 26 2017, 09:06 AM
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L the Different Observer
post Mar 26 2017, 11:05 PM
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How to avoid hell?

Simple, be honest and good person of what you are. Christian, Islam and Judaism all teach their followers to be a decent person.

And out of this honesty, we must reinstate the HONEST MONEY system. In fact, having HONEST MONEY is one option for all of us to avoid hell.
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puchongite
post Yesterday, 07:17 AM
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QUOTE(L the Different Observer @ Mar 26 2017, 11:05 PM)
How to avoid hell?

Simple, be honest and good person of what you are. Christian, Islam and Judaism all teach their followers to be a decent person.

And out of this honesty, we must reinstate the HONEST MONEY system. In fact, having HONEST MONEY is one option for all of us to avoid hell.
*
Yes, in principle Christian, Islam and Judaism all teach their followers to be a decent person but their monotheism and absolute truth claims also warrant them to follow their respective religion in order to follow the ONLY truth, the ONLY way to heaven and the ONLY way to avoid hell.

By claiming ONLY god, ONLY truth and ONLY way to be saved from going to hell, the necessarily means others are wrong, others are not true and others cannot be saved.

If there are multiple way to avoid hell, then you are injecting your own teaching which is different from what's found in Christian, Islam and Judaism.

Effectively you are saying monotheism is not true.

This post has been edited by puchongite: Yesterday, 07:30 AM
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SpikeMarlene
post Yesterday, 08:30 AM
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QUOTE(alexkos @ Mar 25 2017, 01:57 PM)
Fine.

My defense.

Why the Bible is the absolute truth and nothing else.

The Bible is a special revelation from God. It is indeed written by men, but the writing is inspired.

The authors of the Bible span through 40 some persons, throughout 2000 years gap.

The old testament, which is also the scripture of Judaism, come from Moses, who wrote concerning things even before his own era.

It is through the Bible that mankind make sense of what is divine, what is absolute truth, and who is God, and what is required of us as His creation.

Now i understand that by forcing me to answer this question in front of a secular court like this, i need to present evidence that the Bible is indeed word of God, and not word of man.

I pointed to Jesus resurrection. Eye witness account. As well as the account of the apostles. Also the account from the old testaments foretelling about Jesus the Messiah.

Therefore concerning the truth of Christ being dead, and rose again, i stand before you today to testify that the Scripture, or the Bible, is the absolute truth, the only way God has ordained to those who want to know Him.

Therefore repent, and believe in the gospel, realising your complete inadequacy to come before the Holy God, who alone is Truth, and He shall open your eye to things you couldn't see because of the blindness of this world.

Your science can't save you. Nor your inteliigence. Nor your wisdom, and logic and reasoning. Your science surpresses your conscience, dulls your guilt before the Holy God, and silence you not to question concerning what matters all, where do you come from, where are you going, and who are you.

Your science says that you are evolved from atom. And you are going to disappear into molecule soon after your demise. No, seek the truth, see the grand design of this universe, see how utterly hopeless we are without the aid of the Divine.

Your science can't solve the problem of death. Nor morality. Worse still, relative morality. Who gives you the instinct to know what is right and wrong? DNA? How about love, acceptance, compassion, empathy, mercy, grace, where does it come from? Is it evolved over time?

Consider your eternal destiny, your origin, and seek the truth.

P/s: read the gospel of John. Read it for yourself to judge whether it is the truth or not.
*
If you read religions of the world, they are more or less very similar. It is about us, join us with xxx conditions and yyy rewards. They will offer you extraordinary stuff which more or less fulfill your desires and hopes and dreams. That is about as universal as it can get, while in text with prophets proclaiming God is the universe they are very localized. With the advent of modern technology, you learn about religion so science helps the spread of religion which saves you. Otherwise if you are born into a Chinese family, you are probably a mixture of Taoism, Buddhism, Confucianism etc ... hardly a Christian. Again very localized. If an all powerful God were to spread some specific messages to mankind for all is equal and stand a chance to be saved, religion is not it. If religion were man made, then it fits the bill, because human culture, sphere of influence and communication are localized. That is what we observed for all religions. It is more or less a continuation of what went before.

If you are thinking the theological argument, or apologist explanation, again it is more or less very similar for all religions. There is a clause for people who not knowing the religion to be KIV'ed for later case study smile.gif Imagine if an alien were to come conquer earth, they only inform a certain tribe in some corner of the earth "Submit or die!" Unless of course the alien only sent 1 spacecraft and can only fire a few bullets ... But isn't the God is almighty? Maybe not ...

That we have not even touch on the inconsistencies of the Bible and a large part of the Bible is not historically accurate. For start the Gospels do not even agree with each other on some accounts of Jesus resurrection ...
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SpikeMarlene
post Yesterday, 08:36 AM
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QUOTE(ralfvi @ Mar 25 2017, 02:24 PM)
in simple terms
Follow the Quran and The messenger teachings

Does not worship other beings other than ALLAH
Do good deeds be it small or big

Perfect your morality and compassion towards other people or creature even trees yes you heard it right the moslem were pioneer to spread "love the earth" idea and yes all those terror shit is unlawfull in islam  if even one single hurtfull word will be question in the hereafter imagine the judgement if you physically hurt a person or animal without cause.

Does prayer to ALLAH
Does not disobey/neglect your parents more so when they are weak and old
Does not backbite / spread rumours
Does not seek peoples fault

anyway at the end of the day it is up to Allah the almighty god to judge upon us and yes even moslem can go to hell
just going to share a story of a prostitute that helps a thirsty dog and because of that simple good deeds she is rewarded
with heaven perhaps of because god mercy andof her ignorance of the rules .
what is important is your humility and kindness to all as Allah will judge upon us personally  but the odds are better
if you follow the right path.

"And Allah increases those who were guided, in guidance, and the enduring good deeds are better to your Lord for reward and better for recourse" 76:19 verse of Maryam/Mary

"And We will inherit him in what he mentions, and he will come to Us alone ( to be judge)" 80:19 verse of Maryam/Mary
*
This is humanism, you can find moral and respect in atheistic teachings as well, like Confucianism which predated Islam by more than 1000 years. So the thought is you do not need God to guide you in any moral sense, you have already inherited ideas of morality and this is quite obvious from various ancient cultures which did not profess any belief in the Abraham God ... Instead it seems more likely it was humans who wrote what God was expected to say ...
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puchongite
post Yesterday, 04:11 PM
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God is Not Beyond Logic

http://www.provingthenegative.com/2008/07/...yond-logic.html

It’s a widespread practice among believers to defend God from criticisms with some variation of “God is beyond comprehension,” “your logic is not God’s logic,” or “God it beyond the limitations of our logic.” Even many non-believers seem to be willing that these are fair points and that critiques of God can’t really survive this rebuttal.

But if we scratch below the surface on this kind of talk, we can see that it really doesn’t make any sense; it’s a muddle headed evasion. There is no “our” logic that is separate from God’s logic, or lack thereof. A lot of people who haven’t reflected on what they are saying will throw claims around like these, but they haven’t recognized that what they are suggesting is unintelligible. There are several problems with it.

First, they don’t really want to go there. If they try to assert that God is beyond logic, beyond comprehension, or that God’s goodness (and evil) are things that we can’t fathom, then they have effectively disqualified themselves from making any assertions about him. If we can’t understand God’s goodness, or power, or nature, then we certainly aren’t entitled to assert that it is true that God exists or that God is good. If they want to say that belief is reasonable, intelligible, supported by the evidence, rational, or epistemically inculpable, then they can’t also insist that God is beyond comprehension. You can’t have it both ways. On what grounds would you stand where you could assert anything about God if you have categorically denied that we can have any vantage on God? Even worse, on what grounds could you possibly insist that belief in something like this is reasonable when it cannot, by definition, be accessed by us.

Second, .....


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