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> Questions for Christians and Muslims:, How to avoid hell?

DatukD
post Mar 23 2017, 04:23 PM
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QUOTE(Hoka Nobasho @ Mar 20 2017, 12:48 PM)
To the Christians and Muslims, how to avoid hell?

Christians say: "Believe in Jesus and go heaven! Or you there's only one place for you, hell."
Muslims say: "Believe in Allah and go heaven! Or you there's only one place for you, hell."

Further questions for Christians and Muslims:

1) So which religion we can be certain that after one joins, they can go heaven, and not to hell instead?
2) And is it right to send a Christian or a Muslim to hell for believing in the wrong one, even when they are sincere and faithful believers of their faith?
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Bro, both Christians and Muslims have plenty of mazhabs and denominations. They themselves belief that the mazhabs and denominations that they are in is the true one. To be honest, no one knows la...its all about beliefs.

Its like you are in a place with 77 doors....and only one door is to heaven....so pick your choice




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Hoka Nobasho
post Mar 23 2017, 04:35 PM
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QUOTE(alexkos @ Mar 23 2017, 03:53 PM)
Let's try this.

You said

'The bible isn't the absolute truth'.

You have just made a claim.

Question to you: can you please defend your claim?
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QUOTE(puchongite @ Mar 23 2017, 04:17 PM)
Try this :-

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/page/bible-contradictions

Just take the order of creation, for example, and try to defend it ?
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puchongite has provided a point. The fact that there are contradictions and unproven and fictitious accounts in the bible has already spoken for itself of why the bible isn't the absolute truth.

Similarly, Muslims can also use their Quran and claim that their book is the absolute truth as well. What makes you think their version of "absolute truth" is any different from the Christian one?

This post has been edited by Hoka Nobasho: Mar 23 2017, 04:36 PM
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Hoka Nobasho
post Mar 23 2017, 04:36 PM
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QUOTE(DatukD @ Mar 23 2017, 04:23 PM)
Bro, both Christians and Muslims have plenty of mazhabs and denominations. They themselves belief that the mazhabs and denominations that they are in is the true one. To be honest, no one knows la...its all about beliefs.

Its like you are in a place with 77 doors....and only one door is to heaven....so pick your choice
*
Yeah, that's why I asked the question in the first place. Which door?
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SpikeMarlene
post Mar 23 2017, 04:54 PM
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QUOTE(alexkos @ Mar 23 2017, 03:51 PM)
So you do not agree with eyewitness account. When there are more than 2 persons testify of the same thing, you do not agree still. 500 is just a number, and yet with evidence mounted you do not agree.

Let me say it plainly. Christianity rises and falls with resurrection. If you refute Christ's resurrection, you refute the whole religion.

A book is the absolute truth not because it is a book. It is the faithful account written in the past.

Come, present your defense. Tell me why Christ's resurrection is impossible.
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Not that I do not agree completely with eye-witness account but we know eye-witness account is not reliable. On top of that, the story of resurrection has been passed down through many writers, probably has been altered, retold and repackaged. There are also very similar versions of resurrection which predated the Christian story. The resurrection account told in the bible has several versions each has different implication and emphasis. There is no such event ever recorded of a person coming back from dead, only told as story or folklore of the ancient past ... If you take all these together, it is highly unlikely it ever happened.

Here the basic principle is, resurrection entails a higher life after death power, an extraordinary claim. Any extraordinary claim must come with extraordinary evidence, not just that it is reasoned out to be so. For example, if 2 persons claimed to have seen an UFO without any further evidence, then it can be easily refuted rationally that they had most likely mistaken a shooting star, because shooting star exists, something we know is real while UFO is not. Unless there are other evidence like out of this world debris from an UFO crash site etc ...
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alexkos
post Mar 23 2017, 08:07 PM
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QUOTE(puchongite @ Mar 23 2017, 04:17 PM)
Try this :-

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/page/bible-contradictions

Just take the order of creation, for example, and try to defend it ?
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ok. for the sake of this forum. I'll take your question on face value.

Order of creation

Question to you: According to your logic, where do you come from?

Creation, or evolution. Justify your position.
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puchongite
post Mar 23 2017, 08:12 PM
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QUOTE(alexkos @ Mar 23 2017, 08:07 PM)
ok. for the sake of this forum. I'll take your question on face value.

Order of creation

Question to you: According to your logic, where do you come from?

Creation, or evolution. Justify your position.
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Did you read the quote I quoted about your Bible error ? That's how I have proven to you that the Bible isn't the absolute truth.

Now you are asking me where do I come from ?

That's off topic !


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alexkos
post Mar 23 2017, 08:13 PM
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QUOTE(Hoka Nobasho @ Mar 23 2017, 04:35 PM)
puchongite has provided a point. The fact that there are contradictions and unproven and fictitious accounts in the bible has already spoken for itself of why the bible isn't the absolute truth.

Similarly, Muslims can also use their Quran and claim that their book is the absolute truth as well. What makes you think their version of "absolute truth" is any different from the Christian one?
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i won't let you get away sir =)

You said

"contradiction and unproven and fictitious"

Ok, let's try it one by one.

"contradiction"
"unproven"
"fictitious"

If i follow your logic correctly, you are trying to deduce that
"Because the Bible contradicts itself, therefore it is not the absolute truth."
"Because the Bible is unproven, therefore it is not the absolute truth."
"Because the Bible account is fictitious, therefore it is not the absolute truth."

Before I continue, I need to know your stance. Please reveal your position.
Fill in the blank
Atheist, Buddhist, etc.

May I also pose a question,

Because the Bible contradicts with my logic (because my logic is the higher God), therefore the Bible is incorrect.

Please let me know how is your logic plays a higher role in interpreting whether something is true or false.

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alexkos
post Mar 23 2017, 08:16 PM
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QUOTE(puchongite @ Mar 23 2017, 08:12 PM)
Did you read the quote I quoted about your Bible error ? That's how I have proven to you that the Bible isn't the absolute truth.

Now you are asking me where do I come from ?

That's off topic !
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Which quote, pardon my ignorance cry.gif

you mean that website?

I'm taking the question now. You're raising a question on order of creation. No?
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sonic31s
post Mar 23 2017, 08:18 PM
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QUOTE(Hoka Nobasho @ Mar 20 2017, 12:48 PM)
To the Christians and Muslims, how to avoid hell?

Christians say: "Believe in Jesus and go heaven! Or you there's only one place for you, hell."
Muslims say: "Believe in Allah and go heaven! Or you there's only one place for you, hell."

Further questions for Christians and Muslims:

1) So which religion we can be certain that after one joins, they can go heaven, and not to hell instead?
2) And is it right to send a Christian or a Muslim to hell for believing in the wrong one, even when they are sincere and faithful believers of their faith?
*
We are living in one right now... If you don't mind! keep continue in this live and repeat eternally...
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alexkos
post Mar 23 2017, 08:20 PM
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QUOTE(SpikeMarlene @ Mar 23 2017, 04:54 PM)
Not that I do not agree completely with eye-witness account but we know eye-witness account is not reliable. On top of that, the story of resurrection has been passed down through many writers, probably has been altered, retold and repackaged. There are also very similar versions of resurrection which predated the Christian story. The resurrection account told in the bible has several versions each has different implication and emphasis. There is no such event ever recorded of a person coming back from dead, only told as story or folklore of the ancient past ... If you take all these together, it is highly unlikely it ever happened.

Here the basic principle is, resurrection entails a higher life after death power, an extraordinary claim. Any extraordinary claim must come with extraordinary evidence, not just that it is reasoned out to be so. For example, if 2 persons claimed to have seen an UFO without any further evidence, then it can be easily refuted rationally that they had most likely mistaken a shooting star, because shooting star exists, something we know is real while UFO is not. Unless there are other evidence like out of this world debris from an UFO crash site etc ...
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you have a good point. Resurrection is a supernatural event. You used the word 'highly unlikely'. Therefore I assume there's still probability for this event to happen.

May I remind you also that Jesus is a historical person. Jesus being nailed to the cross is a historical account.

When it pertains to Jesus' resurrection, the Bible provided eyewitness, and written record to preserve the authenticity of this event.

Now, when it's raised that eyewitness predictive power not great enough, may I ask what evidence then is required to convince the mass? It happened 2000 years ago with no technological tool.

I think you want to say something. You may carry on and we continue to discuss.
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JunJun04035
post Yesterday, 07:46 AM
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QUOTE(Hoka Nobasho @ Mar 20 2017, 12:48 PM)
To the Christians and Muslims, how to avoid hell?

Christians say: "Believe in Jesus and go heaven! Or you there's only one place for you, hell."
Muslims say: "Believe in Allah and go heaven! Or you there's only one place for you, hell."

Further questions for Christians and Muslims:

1) So which religion we can be certain that after one joins, they can go heaven, and not to hell instead?
2) And is it right to send a Christian or a Muslim to hell for believing in the wrong one, even when they are sincere and faithful believers of their faith?
*
i dig and dig and dig deep down, and I don't find hell, now how a? rolleyes.gif
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JunJun04035
post Yesterday, 07:46 AM
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QUOTE(Hoka Nobasho @ Mar 20 2017, 12:48 PM)
To the Christians and Muslims, how to avoid hell?

Christians say: "Believe in Jesus and go heaven! Or you there's only one place for you, hell."
Muslims say: "Believe in Allah and go heaven! Or you there's only one place for you, hell."

Further questions for Christians and Muslims:

1) So which religion we can be certain that after one joins, they can go heaven, and not to hell instead?
2) And is it right to send a Christian or a Muslim to hell for believing in the wrong one, even when they are sincere and faithful believers of their faith?
*
i dig and dig and dig deep down, and I don't find hell, now how a? rolleyes.gif
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SpikeMarlene
post Yesterday, 08:44 AM
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QUOTE(alexkos @ Mar 23 2017, 08:20 PM)
you have a good point. Resurrection is a supernatural event. You used the word 'highly unlikely'. Therefore I assume there's still probability for this event to happen.

May I remind you also that Jesus is a historical person. Jesus being nailed to the cross is a historical account.

When it pertains to Jesus' resurrection, the Bible provided eyewitness, and written record to preserve the authenticity of this event.

Now, when it's raised that eyewitness predictive power not great enough, may I ask what evidence then is required to convince the mass? It happened 2000 years ago with no technological tool.

I think you want to say something. You may carry on and we continue to discuss.
*
For one there is no absolute knowledge in the sense we know every detail every single moment. There is no supernatural event either, the closest we can say is event that cannot be explained, probably due to lack of evidence. Jesus is probably not a historical person, he is partly invented from a brewing pot of myth and some apocalyptic prophet or doomsayer, the story was altered in a century or two during the development of Christianity.

In each of the claims I made, all I need to show that these elements exist, there are unexplained phenomena everywhere even today that one can easily attribute to his/her belief, similar stories that predated the Christian resurrection, self-proclaimed prophets in the general area of Levant, etc ... Nothing extraordinary. OTH, if you claim the extraordinary, it will be come to naught in support of your claim to say "It happened 2000 years ago with no technological tool." That just mean it is not true ...
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alexkos
post Yesterday, 02:50 PM
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QUOTE(SpikeMarlene @ Mar 24 2017, 08:44 AM)
For one there is no absolute knowledge in the sense we know every detail every single moment. There is no supernatural event either, the closest we can say is event that cannot be explained, probably due to lack of evidence. Jesus is probably not a historical person, he is partly invented from a brewing pot of myth and some apocalyptic prophet or doomsayer, the story was altered in a century or two during the development of Christianity.

In each of the claims I made, all I need to show that these elements exist, there are unexplained phenomena everywhere even today that one can easily attribute to his/her belief, similar stories that predated the Christian resurrection, self-proclaimed prophets in the general area of Levant, etc ... Nothing extraordinary. OTH, if you claim the extraordinary, it will be come to naught in support of your claim to say "It happened 2000 years ago with no technological tool." That just mean it is not true ...
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So, you are not convinced of the evidence concerning Jesus as a historical person, died on the cross, and buried, and rose again.

It's ok. I am now asking a series of questions. We'll take it slowly ok?

Question: Does absolute truth exist? Or, does the truth functions relatively (you got your own truth, I got my version).

I know you know the answer. I need you to answer it before we move on to next question. smile.gif
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SpikeMarlene
post Yesterday, 03:21 PM
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QUOTE(alexkos @ Mar 24 2017, 02:50 PM)
So, you are not convinced of the evidence concerning Jesus as a historical person, died on the cross, and buried, and rose again.

It's ok. I am now asking a series of questions. We'll take it slowly ok?

Question: Does absolute truth exist? Or, does the truth functions relatively (you got your own truth, I got my version).

I know you know the answer. I need you to answer it before we move on to next question.  smile.gif
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No, absolute truth does not exist in the absolute sense. Even it does exist, we would probably not know it. This is going to get a bit more philosophical, the world does not actually work from some absolute truth, but layers of provisional or piece-wise truths, which other layers of truths emerge.

I don't want to digress here, but the point which I spelled out a couple of times already, if you make an extraordinary claim, you need extraordinary evidence. It is a simple principle.

If a cult say of 500 years ago claimed the priests can levitate and performed power blasts like the Avengers, then it is not sufficient just to show in texts particularly the texts that are pro-Avengers, that these things really happened. You need extraordinary evidence for example, some followers of the cult today can levitate and blast the baddies into oblivion. So today these things never happened, or sufficiently recorded that it ever happened. So why when we have sufficient means and better understanding through scientific methods, this kind of supernatural feats tend to disappear completely across the earth?
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puchongite
post Yesterday, 05:42 PM
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QUOTE(alexkos @ Mar 24 2017, 02:50 PM)
So, you are not convinced of the evidence concerning Jesus as a historical person, died on the cross, and buried, and rose again.

It's ok. I am now asking a series of questions. We'll take it slowly ok?

Question: Does absolute truth exist? Or, does the truth functions relatively (you got your own truth, I got my version).

I know you know the answer. I need you to answer it before we move on to next question.  smile.gif
*
Absolute truth can exist if we start putting endless number of qualifying conditions and exceptions to it.

But in a day-to-day communication, we take short cut and make sentences shorter and given the context, we can accept the shorter sentence as the truth or the approximate truth.

For example, one says "The ball is round." This can be accepted as the truth. But somebody might come forward and argue that, "No no no, the ball is not perfectly round!". And then we have to start changing the sentence to become "The ball is round within 5% of measuring errors!". Then another person will come and challenge and say "No no no, the ball is not forever round. After 30 days, the ball will be deflated and it will run out of the 5% measuring error!" And so we change the sentence to become "The ball is round with 5% of measuring errors and provided that we keep the ball inflated within 90 kPa air pressure!".

And the truth statement becomes longer and longer and becomes endlessly boring and clumsy.

But all these is a digression.

When we say "the bible is not the absolute truth!", what we really mean is that "the bible is not even anywhere near the approximate truth", as it has so many gross errors, contradictions and so many unsubstantiated extra ordinary claims. And the bible also dare claim absolute truth in areas of subjective (non-factual) matter and moral issues. We are not looking for perfection but the bible is just too far off from being the absolute truth.

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alexkos
post Yesterday, 10:12 PM
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ok great SpikeMarine and puchongite, I will take both of you together =)

So I couldn't get a convincing 'yes, absolute truth does exist' due to many qualifiers.

To make thing simpler, let's try this question should we?

Question: Where do we come from?

I'd like to hear from you. I understand that the question seems too simple and almost idiotic to answer, but I'm trying to push for a logical conclusion, and we need a launching point.

To be fair, you can choose to let me answer it first, or later.

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creativ
post Today, 12:10 AM
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SpikeMarlene
post Today, 01:41 AM
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QUOTE(alexkos @ Mar 24 2017, 10:12 PM)
ok great SpikeMarine and puchongite, I will take both of you together =)

So I couldn't get a convincing 'yes, absolute truth does exist' due to many qualifiers.

To make thing simpler, let's try this question should we?

Question: Where do we come from?

I'd like to hear from you. I understand that the question seems too simple and almost idiotic to answer, but I'm trying to push for a logical conclusion, and we need a launching point.

To be fair, you can choose to let me answer it first, or later.
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Where we came from is where your God came from ... The answer is a matter of taste which depends on your orientation. It feels, note the feeling, more satisfying to have an eternal God than an eternal universe, but reality is not there to satisfy human. If nature does, we see more life than empty space. The universe is largely hostile to life, and that is an understatement ... Even on earth we live in a very narrow band of about 5km and 1/3 of it's surface. That is less than 1% of earth. But that is not how the Bible describes life in the universe, we are it, the pinnacle of creation and the purpose of the universe. It seems to be a claim made by people who could not peer out more than the night sky and imagined that stars to be angels hovering on a canopy surrounding a flat earth ...
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alexkos
post Today, 09:00 AM
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QUOTE(SpikeMarlene @ Mar 25 2017, 01:41 AM)
Where we came from is where your God came from ... The answer is a matter of taste which depends on your orientation. It feels, note the feeling, more satisfying to have an eternal God than an eternal universe, but reality is not there to satisfy human. If nature does, we see more life than empty space. The universe is largely hostile to life, and that is an understatement ... Even on earth we live in a very narrow band of about 5km and 1/3 of it's surface. That is less than 1% of earth. But that is not how the Bible describes life in the universe, we are it, the pinnacle of creation and the purpose of the universe. It seems to be a claim made by people who could not peer out more than the night sky and imagined that stars to be angels hovering on a canopy surrounding a flat earth ...
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Not bad, i love how you respond. You already try to presuppose God in the question on 'where do we come from?'.

For the sake of readers also (coz simpler is always better, parsimony), i will deal with questions one by one. Forum is a tough place to get thoughts oeganized, especially multiple subpoints are needed.

I try to answer that question. Just logic ok? No presupposition o the supernatural, unobserved phenomenon outside scientific realm. Just observation and fact.

My answer:
Where do i come from? Evolution says i come from ape. Fine, ape comes from where? You will find that by pushing thing to a logical conclusion, we will inevitably reach to the point of 'where does all these stuff come from?'

So all things can be reduced to atom (at this point of scientific finding). Fine, so where does atom come from?

It quickly becomes an idiotic question because of course no one knows where the first atom came from.

People suggest quantum theory. Or intelligent design. Fine. So where is the beginning of all? Big bang? What is before Big Bang? A big void? In the beginning there was nothing, them pom....We have everything.

You will find that the search of truth is a painful one. I suppose a man must answer for himself these three questions

Who am i?
Where do i come from?
Where am i going?

The questions are intentionally personal for each one to answer for himself.

Though i just want to remind the readers that while the answer may be personal, absolute truth does not. It is objective and is outside of our control.

You may chip in on what you think about my response. My answer is not even close to choosing deity as my final answer. I just try to push things to a logical conclusion.

Next question: where are we going?

Again, this question is so broad that I'd love u to try answer it. To be fair, you can request to have me answer it first, if you wish.

To be courteous, it is not good to bash people's comment, especially it is a personal one. I'm saying that to remind myself to be gentle in response. And only constructive comment, not personal assault.

Others can try also.

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