Forumer you are complaining against:
seller1415

Item being sold/bought:
Exploding Kittens Card Game

Original thread link:
https://forum.lowyat.net/topic/4205965/+0#entry83861405

Date of transaction:
Feb 24 2017, 03:45 PM

Details of the complaint :
Seller is selling imitation version of the popular Exploding Kitten card deck. I asked in PM if it was an original copy and he said it's new condition and purchased from Ebay but was unsure of it's authenticity. Since it's priced close to the original price in USD, I take it in good faith that it is the original copy. Upon receiving the goods, I compared it to the original copy and found that it is indeed a fake. I am willing to return the complete unopened package back to the seller for a full refund but the seller insists that it is not returnable and updated the posting page to indicate that it is not refundable nor is it original. Lowyat policies clearly state that imitation goods cannot be posted for sale which is why I also trusted in faith to purchase from the seller. Seller also updated the price down to RM 30 now. You may refer to the cached copy of the original posting to confirm my claims that he priced it at RM 60 while a US copy costs USD 20 and he claims he is clearing stock which is also why I believe he is being honest in clearing his items at a lower price.

Cached Page
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/sear...1&hl=en&ct=clnk

Original vs Counterfeit copy

As i mentioned i wasnt know it wasnt original at all since i get it from online supplier too . and as the proof that everyone is selling the same product here with the same price in lazada . http://www.lazada.com.my/catalog/?q=exploding+kitten+ if you guys / admin can go check the original price of this . normally it is rm100+ https://www.explodingkittens.com/buy . and admin can go check our conversation ,i already said i wasnt know about the originality but he insist on purchasing it .and would like to refund? there is willingness buyer and seller . closed deal we cant simply just take it back as we already recorded it is sold . and i told him that i would settle this problem by giving back him a reasonable price . so ~ please do some checking first thanks

http://imgur.com/a/Qdiu7 from this picture right side is my stock . and take a look at here please https://www.explodingkittens.com/buy

>unsure of it's authenticity>

seller already make it clear he is unsure of it's authenticity and you proceed with the deal. i don't see any wrong doing here..

i bought one set from ebay UK (NSFW and kids friendly version) and had it hand carried back by a friend there back here ....

how do you spot the fakes ??

the first picture above, the two boxes might be genuine ... the card game launched first, the online app game very much later on ... assuming the bottom box was printed/produced b4 the online game and the top AFTER

the second picture on comparison of 2 cards ... since you havent open the box ... the picture taken off the net ??

and bro why you didnt put your http://imgur.com/a/Qdiu7 to let others see that your is left hand side one mine is right side one . compared to the https://www.explodingkittens.com/buy

This post has been edited by seller1415: Feb 28 2017, 06:47 PM

Unsure of it's authenticity does not necessarily means it's fake as well. Unfortunately I went ahead with my trust that it's a genuine copy. Since he's unsure and based on my comparison with my own copies, I deduced that it's likely a fake based on the print quality, card size and lack of authenticity seal on the NSFW box.

My company has the NSFW, Original and 2 Imploding Kitten set bought from Amazon. So initially when we saw the boxes we were unsure as well since packaging could have been updated as well but after looking at the card quality, color, and prints you can tell it's a copy. NSFW version comes with an authenticity as you can see in my picture, it's between the barcode and CE logo, while the copy I received from the seller does not.

If you compare the card images, the original one (right) has pure white borders while the one I received has a slight tinge of yellow. To answer your question the basic card sets were all shrinked wrapped, so I only open the expansion pack which was not sealed which is why I only showed the card from that deck.

I wished there are better ways to identify clones for this popular game because this copy does look very close. I also noticed seller changed his price from RM 60, to RM 30 and claimed it was not authentic when I raised the dispute and now back to RM 60 without the note about it's authenticity.

I'm willing to deliver the unopened sets back to the seller at my expense for a refund.

This reddit post has some good pointers as well. https://www.reddit.com/r/ExplodingKittens/c...g_kittens_deck/

I left the cards in my office but I can take more photos to do the comparisons.

as i mention earlier ,good sold are not returnable since the deal is made and closed . what i can offer you a better solution is to refund you a fair price which beneficial for both of us .Thanks

Here's a comparison between the Imploding Kitten. The one original one had the seal of authenticity.
http://imgur.com/a/O3AdP

Does the mod need to chip in on this issue ?

Mods are not here to solve your issue. Read the rules on top

As seller said unsure of it's authenticity and unfortunately you still go ahead the deal, I suggest that you take his offer where he return some of your money and get on with it.

totally can see seller is not at fault since he already stated unsure about authenticity

Seller,
I think it would be best if you just give the buyer a full refund of what was originally paid, excluding postage which is at buyer's cost. It would be the best solution for both involved, don't you feel? If buyer paid rm50+rm10 for postage, just refund rm50. And buyer should cover return cost too.
Let's act in good faith here. I understand it isn't your fault, you did state you were unsure of the authenticity and buyer himself gave the go ahead as he assumed it was genuine. Now normally, this is the buyer's own risk. You didn't mislead him, he misled himself in his own positivity. You don't have to do anything in fact, but you came here to try settle this amicably. So just try to follow my suggestion. It seems unfair to you maybe, but show you're a positive seller. It helps in the long run. Let's not haggle over how much to be refunded, just refund him what he paid as goodwill.
Just take it as paying a fee for a lesson learnt. Try to cover yourself from any sort of doubtful liabilities that will happen, it happens to all of us in trade. And again, it isn't your fault at all.

Buyer,
You got what was described in the transaction. It's not his fault you got a pirate copy. Seller was willing to disclose all information asked for, and you yourself agreed to the deal. So don't for a moment think that you deserve any refund. Seller has fulfilled his part of the deal. Be fair, eh? Your case usually PayPal will review as buyers' remorse.
But I'm advising seller to give a full refund anyways, instead of wasting any more time with this tit for tat. Since he appears nice and all. Just cover postage fees, don't expect a refund on the initial postage fee. This is more than fair. Consider this if seller obliges, his goodwill.

So yeah. Don't think buyers are absolved from any responsibility. It's your responsibility to verify you are getting what you want to pay for. In this case you failed, it's on you 100%. I'll assume it's a first for you. So let's hope there won't be any repeats.

Admittedly I was hopeful that it was a genuine copy since the seller may not be able to tell if he also received a fake copy. I've mentioned in my previous reply that I'd be more than happy to return the sets at my expense but since he included free delivery, I'd let him offset the initial postage fee from what I paid as well to be fair. I understand that the seller is also trying to make a living and I'm not trying to incur any additional loss from his end too. It's certainly a lesson to be learnt.

@seller1415 Any final thoughts on this ?

edited for you

I can only bank in him back rm100 for the refund . no profit earn from him just take back the costs of the products . so i can return him rm100 only . if he want . thanks ..

For more context, I bought 3 sets with expansion from him at RM 110 for one set as per the original post. So originally it was RM 310 after discount with free shipping.

Thanks

So let me be clear.
Buyer bought 3 sets from you at a cost of rm310. You're offering a refund of rm100 now.
You're selling what you have left at rm30. So even if buyer sells it off he can only get rm90 for the 3 sets. Putting him out of pocket for rm110.

There's nothing wrong with what you're doing, seller. It can also be argued that the fault is exclusively the buyers. But look at this thread, and how much bad faith we're dealing with here. If you refuse to refund the full amount, of course that is your right. And you do that, at the cost of goodwill and good faith. Your future sales would be treated on a strictly buyers beware basis in the future, there won't be trust and your buyers would be very aware of this case and covering all their bases when dealing with you. There's a cost to everything, my friend.
If you decide to give the full refund now even, this thread has generated quite some mistrust. So the damage can't necessarily be undone.

So have a think about it. I suggested my initial proposal as an idealistic scenario case. Sure, it isn't your fault. But in most cases, this is the risk of trying to run a good business where customers put their full trust in you. Just have to bear the cost of getting stock which does not fulfil customers' needs. Most big businesses do it, goodwill is one of the hardest things to pay for. And then we're in Malaysia, where sellers and buyers are always antagonistic towards each other, short term gains at the cost of long term earnings. Are you a trader, or a businessman then?

There's a lack of ethics in most businesses here already. Very negative mindset.

That's a good write up that summarizes some of my feelings as well. seller1415 any thoughts on reconsidering your options ?

I suggest you get on with it, just be smart next time, there are no such thing good and at the same time cheap, if the deal seems too good, u must have the diligence to check that it is of premium quality before purchasing, so to some extent it is your own greed that put you in this situation, and after all this drama the seller probably can't get any business as you have jeopardized his reputation, and you still naively think that you will get full refund?

If you want to settle nicely, dont't bring this issue public at the first place.

Actually I did discuss at length with the seller before deciding to start the dispute. I was hesitant at first but when he decided to update the post with the "no refund no return goods policy" immediately after I mentioned that it was fake, I felt I needed to make it clear that it was added after that fact or he could use that against me saying that has been the policy from the beginning.

His initial price wasn't really that cheap, it's about 15~20% cheaper which I'm not surprised if he got a good deal with his supplier or during Black Friday sales. I never claim the seller intended to lie or misrepresent his goods to me either. The seller could have unknowingly received the fake copy from his supplier as well. When I received it, checked it and found that it's fake I basically just told the seller "hey dude, the cards are actually fake and I'm afraid I really can't accept it, can I return it back to you for a refund instead at my expense?". The cards are still shrink wrapped and in good sellable condition.

hello there, in our final conclusion I am so sorry to tell you that ,we can not give you a full refund . it is because if we do so,others will or might follow by saying hey why your product isnt real . so as a result we really can not do this . we have a lots of buyers bought our exploding kittens so i cant affort the cost of everyone wanted a full refund like you did . and still rm100 for you is what we can offer for you . Thanks.

please, bro go and do some searching as ONE set is about rm 100++
and we are selling at the price range of 50% of the ori .
so in result do you really think so ? you yourself should beware and do not make rush decision . we business can not survive if everyone only stand at the point and think about their own .how about the business then? Thanks ~

This post has been edited by seller1415: Mar 4 2017, 08:07 PM

Hi seller1415
So are you saying that if you had unknowingly sold fake copies to your buyers, it's your policy not to refund these buyers even after you realise that mistake ?

I wouldn't know the cost of these cards or where you got your goods from, but I know Amazon sells a set of them at retail for USD 33 ~ RM 146. Given that you priced them as RM 110 a set when you sold them to me, it's only a 25~30% difference. Who knows perhaps you bought them off at retail when our currency was stronger or you had people to buy them for you from US or you really wanted to get rid of your inventory as quickly as possible.

https://www.amazon.com/Imploding-Kittens-Fi...AM01PX1GD9H2S7M

https://www.amazon.com/Exploding-Kittens-Ab...Y4736PB5WAZ8RRK

I was giving you a benefit of a doubt when you said you're unsure since they are of high quality maybe because you've never seen a fake vs original copy before.

This post has been edited by kianyang: Mar 6 2017, 04:42 PM

Hi seller1415
I'd just like a final follow up from you regarding this matter. After which I will decide my next course of action. Thanks !

Of course feel free to PM me as well.

Hi seller1415
It appears that you've stop following up on this thread. I will follow up with you on this offline. Thanks everyone for their opinion.