Hello everyone, my husband is a small time trader who also sells online engaging ipay88 as the Payment Gateway system. As usual, he will receive credit card payments through the company website (payment managed by ipay88) and then proceed to deliver the items via courier service or COD.

Then one day, after 5-6 months, the buyer disputed the transaction. Claiming that he did not buy the items. But my husband, upon seeing the authorized transaction then had already delivered the items to the buyer. Now, all ipay88 claim that they can do is ask us to contact the buyer to ask him to cancel the dispute. This is unlikely to happen because, after so long, the buyer is uncontactable as he has changed his hp number. Secondly, it could be a case of misused credit card issue whereby the credit card owner really did not make the purchase. How can the company absolve the responsibility just because the bank has raised a dispute on this? It is a very big amount amounting to thousands. Because of the negligence by ipay, we could potentially lose double the amount that is the cost of the stock and the selling price which ipay88 is demanding from us. We have already furnished receipts (with buyer's signature) as proof of sale and receipt to ipay88. The whole system seems unfair to us as it only protects the consumers and big companies like ipay88. Small time merchants are left in the lurch.

Any sifus can guide us on what we can do in this case? It is very unfair to us, genuine sellers as we engaged ipay88 in trust that they are providing reliable payment gateway solutions. It baffles me that they can authorize the credit card transaction, and dispute it 5-6 months later! We merely perform normal business procedures and got caught in this sticky situation due to them not having stringent procedures to prevent chargebacks like this from occurring. Please guide us, if u have any experience as I'm feeling really helpless and sad right now. Thank you.

Chargebacks are always merchant's own responsibility, no payment gateway will absorb it, which is also why most small merchants prefer to sell on platforms like lazada/11street/etc.

The bigger e-commerce merchants actually absorb these chargebacks as part of their operational cost. Anyway, if you prefer to fight this chargeback case, first of all you have to ask all the details from ipay88 (i.e. transaction approval details like 3D secure info, dispute reason code etc), forget about asking ipay88 to fight on your behalf, as no payment gateway will do this for their merchants.

If i'm not mistaken, PayPal has similar loophole as well. Yes it's a loophole, not negligence & yes it's favoring the buyers. So some dedicated scammers are scamming businesses this way. There are some threads on similar cases with PayPal; scammer disappear after receiving the item & disputed the transaction with PayPal.

Red flag #1 - disputed transaction. I've personally experience this & the banks will contact the buyer & reveal all the transaction details including e.g. time of purchase, item bought, the location etc. Then will ask again if the buyer still want to proceed with the dispute.

Red flag #2 - number unreachable after 6 months. Coincidence? How likely someone disappear after winning a dispute case?

Why do you have to pay ipay88? You item is gone & ipay88 refunded the scammer, how could ipay88 ask you to pay on the scammer's behalf?

Look at the Top Online Payment in Malaysia chart. Then study your own customer behavior, do they usually use those payment gateway? After all those consideration, decide for yourself how you wanna learn from this incident. If all your products are costly, you might wanna remove ipay88 & PayPal services off entirely. Unless more than half of your transaction is paid via ipay88. 

My definition of costly; high margin or low margin. If you margin is hovering around 10%, that's costly for me. If your margin is 200%, probably can absorb the loss if it's not too frequent.

If your merchant is VBV (Visa) enabled tell your merchant to refer to the bank how the transaction can get approved. If it's not VBV then you got to absorb.

this happens all the time, even places like lazada and 11street doing the same thing to their seller too (if im not mistaken). parking here too, my friend used to operate a restaurant and face the same thing. bank call, asking for signature, cctv etc etc... and in the end he has to absorb the amount as well. parking here to see any other solution to solve this.

I believe your merchant payment  is via online and payment must go through the ECC whereby the code is used to SMS the owner and to enter the correct code.

Without such code, the payment will not be succeeded.

If really someone misused the credit card, I don't think he could able to hack the SMS system to get the code unless he is real pro.

Check with ipay and request all chargeback information from them to know when the owner initialed the chargeback.

Also, when the transaction is approved, owner will receive a other SMS...

I would say the real owner is scammer instead.

I am interested in this topic and would like to know the outcome as I have been involved in such dispute before by buyer.

If credit card is chargedback in Lazada and 11street they wouldn't force their merchants to bear the loss unlike payment gateways like MOL and ipay88?

If credit card is chargedback in Lazada and 11street they wouldn't force their merchants to bear the loss unlike payment gateways like MOL and ipay88?

Thanks. Hope this can be a good point of contention.

But then again, some payment websites like Groupon whereby the credit card info is saved then no ECC SMS is required. Have encountered before where I thought that I would need the SMS Code but none was received. Nevertheless, I should go get all the info you pointed out there from ipay88. Never thought of that before. I do believe the real owner is the scammer or they work in a group. Thank you again for pointing this out as we were always thinking of defending ourselves by proving the authenticity of the transaction instead of questioning them back. Thank you. 

They won't, technically lazada/11street will be the merchant for the transaction, they will absorb the credit card fraud.

Below is Lazada's statement about it:-

Lazada (directly or indirectly through a third party at its sole discretion) will bear the risk of credit card fraud (e.g. fraudulent
purchases arising from the theft or unauthorized use of a Customer’s credit card information) occurring in connection with the
Transactions, except with respect to Transactions that the Seller does not fulfil in accordance with the Order information. The Seller will
bear all other risk of fraud or loss. The Seller will promptly inform Lazada of any changes to the nature or specifications of the Goods or any
pattern of fraudulent or other improper activity with respect to any of the Goods that may result in a higher incidence of fraud or other
impropriety associated with Transactions involving the Goods.

so who will absorb the chargeback? Lazada? 11street? i dont think so. this is just a dispute, but most of the seller will wash hands as its just a selling platform. zzzz

https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopic=4061011&hl=

Please keep us updated your case.

About the ECC code, regardless the info is saved or no, all payments must be directed to such website to enter code. If there is no, the system provider or payment processor should be liable for fraud case.

Please query this info as well to check the ECC code if that was sent or entered by the buyer.

Thank you. That is more reassuring.

In this case, the gateway providers should step up and bear some risk instead of merely acting as an "independent" intermediary platform for transactions only.
In case you know of any gateway providers besides ipay88 that would bear the risk of credit card fraud, please let me know. Thank you. 

I thought I saw something similar not too long ago. Someone familiar with the chargeback confirmed that seller would not receive the money. Hence better to sell on platform like lazada who will absorb these cases for a few percentage of your profit.

I thought I saw something similar not too long ago. Someone familiar with the chargeback confirmed that seller would not receive the money. Hence better to sell on platform like lazada who will absorb these cases for a few percentage of your profit.

TS, did ipay88 disclose info on which order with fraud? Did you happen to have the customer name ? Might have similar case. Only that seller cod with customer. Paid everything via marketplace. Customer Disputed to bank saying didn't receive items after 5 moths. Made big purchase. Same pattern. HP not contactable. Decided to report police although chances of winning is slim.

We have the customer's name etc. But handphone for COD is uncontactable. Feels like that every part try to wash hands off because of the scammer.

to authorize payment from CC to gateway to merchant ... a OTP will need to be entered for transaction without the physical card .. OTP will be sent by the Bank to cc holders phone and then cc holder will need to enter it into the Bank website (will pop up)

OTP implement since 2012 as in BNM publication
http://www.bnm.gov.my/files/publication/fs...n/2012/cp05.pdf

with the OTP, it is the bank that authorized the payment to ipay88 (and ipay88 to forward the $$ to you) ...

i can say, the cc holder refuse to pay the bank ... and the bank refuse to pay ipay88 and pass it on to you .... what i;ll do is to offer to team up with ipay88 ... tell them, if you were to take on this alone, you can go BNM as well and threaten to go big ...

AND ... this is cc fraud case / scam .... with posting slip that contains name (and IC of receiver hopefully) and address ... you can really report to BNM ...

I'm confused. If the buyer key in the OTP isn't it the cc holder authorise the transaction? And that even if the buyer initiate a dispute isn't the bank will inform the buyer he/she is liable at first place? I had a fren just gone thru this. Disputed wrong tranx. 😂

Buyer > Bank > Ipay88 > you

if at buyer end, no one key in OTP when prompt, then the bank will not authorize payment to ipay (and to you d) ...

how the buyer can dispute this ?? he can say its not him he never authorize (cause never receive any OTP etc) ........ like this most probably bank at fault lar, he never key in OTP how come bank still authorize payment to ipay ??

like this never follow protocol as set by BNM ... ask ipay for information such as CC and which bank card issued from as entered by the buyer during check out ...

Buyer > Bank > Ipay88 > you

if at buyer end, no one key in OTP when prompt, then the bank will not authorize payment to ipay (and to you d) ...

how the buyer can dispute this ?? he can say its not him he never authorize (cause never receive any OTP etc) ........ like this most probably bank at fault lar, he never key in OTP how come bank still authorize payment to ipay ??

like this never follow protocol as set by BNM ... ask ipay for information such as CC and which bank card issued from as entered by the buyer during check out ...

I thought if bank issue otp, then buyer is confirm liable liao . Coz otp sent out, bank can trace. And usually if didnt key in otp will expired.

this is between buyer and banks ...

in CC case, if CC holder refuse to pay ... then banks will look for other way out, push the blame to others ...

everybody want to take the easy way out .... hoping merchant also diam diam give back money

thats why have to fight abit

I am interested to know how soon the cardholder made dispute report upon this case.

We have the customer's name etc. But handphone for COD is uncontactable. Feels like that every part try to wash hands off because of the scammer.

Any update?

Able to get trace from courier? The recipient address is the good info to trace from.

I am interested to know how soon the cardholder made dispute report upon this case.

hopefully, he/she make the report and fight it lar .... dont just pay up ....

i might suggest Merchant team up with gateway (after all gateway services are paid a fee by merchant and have input details by the "buyer" during check out) ... they should provide all information and advise to merchant and not let him/her fight blind (at least advise and represent them abit since they are paid) ...

If ts and my case, 5 months gap only he realised he purchase/ receive the items. Funny that bank accepts such large gap time for dispute. Doesnt make sense since the anount is high. Genuine buyers would be nervous as hell if 1 week they didnt receive the items.
Will make a police report on my case. I cant diam diam. Its so obvious a scam. Even my winning chance is almost 0.1% since i had removed all my most important evidences (nvr thought this could have happened and its been 8 months+)
And about teaming with marketplace, its almost 0%. When i asked more details about the dispute and maybe info of that scammer, the marketplace is like defending him. Said cant disclose this la bla bla bla... Need protect the privacy of the customer. Im not sure what i asked is right or not but i need accurate info to be provided to the police.

But i agree that everyone is pushing the ball to the merchant and hope we pay.

kawa_e

May I which marketplace is that? If it's 11st, afaik once the buyer ckick on Confirm Purchase, they can no longer say they didn't receive the good right? Afterall, a sane person would only click that after they got what they bought.

is your case still going on?

question bank the bank why the gap is so huge for cardholder to realise? And because of the cardholder refused to pay, the bank kiasu and perform such claim from provider and provider claims from merchant.

I think you should submit the case to BNM as well as the bank has broken the conflict of interest to protect themselves since the claim period has been lapsed but still they initial the claim.

Can't really disclose but I can say it's not 11st. But it's top 3 marketplaces in malaysia. 11st is protecting the seller at least with that system. If a customer did not confirm purchase within a period of time, it will be automatically confirmed so that only the money will go to the seller.
Yes, we just received the dispute from marketplace saying this customer did not receive any of the items he purchased. The marketplace said the customer has the right to file for dispute to bank from 180 days -365 days. That's very absurd  all I know Was that this customer bought in July and filed dispute in Nov-Dec. Is this logical/reasonable amount of time for the customer to realize ? 

Bank who initiate the claim is cimb. The scammer used cimb cc for purchase. This is my guess only or unless he could go to any bank to initiate the dispute ? I am dealing with the marketplace so all the info Regarding this customer is non disclosure.

Unfortunately as mentioned earlier, I can say I  lost all the important evidences. Only screenshots of receipts as proof of. Collection. As for BNM, do I still stand a chance to report with them. I just finished drafting my police report. It is painstaking since I need to squeeze the juice out of my brain to remember all the details of dealing between the scammer and I 

I am interested to know about your whole story on how to happened so i can give you some valid points to claim from.

Only the credit card issuer can claim disputes. This, is CIMB in your case.

File a report to BNM as well and cc a copy to CIMB.

JULY 4TH- initially this customer made a staggering amount at our company website using cc before raya. Out payment gateway emailed us to take precaution of this customer due to this high amount. My company did not have a team or any expertise in handling fake cc verification therefore we decided to cancel his orders. I called his cc card number but not reachable. The secondary number is callable though. A chinese lady picked up the phone stating that his boss(cc holder) would like to purchase several electronic items for raya to his employees. She seemed pretty genuine from the sound of it and i assisted her to go to this marketplace. I was greedy since who didnt want a sale becoz i could have asked her to go to outlet but the sale would be mine from the marketplace. Marketplace has verification team so even if the cc is fake, they would reject it. The lady's orders went through and total 5.

On the same day itself, this lady had been texting via wechat about the orders and everything. Our company was based in ipoh and we had outlets in kl. she said his boss has company in ipoh, melaka and kl. she was in kl and her boss in melaka. I asked why his boss never answered calls, she said he was busy and she was the one to do the ordering on his boss behalf (already sounds fishy as i typed however i never would thought this all that time) Her orders consisted of items that were available in ipoh and She was begging me to allow her for self collection becoz her boss needed the items before the raya holiday and the courier has stopped delivering. So i let her to self collect 3 items at kl outlet. I asked her to bring receipts (i found this out later, that she printed the receipts from marketplace) and to give me her ic. She told me she wouldnt be collecting. She has a malay employee and i pass the info to the sales person on duty. The sales person checked everythinh including ic and receipts, everything was right and passed the items to the malay. Later i received a call from this lady saying thank you that she has gotten the items

JULY 5TH- the lady still has 2 items. There is no more courier and she has asked me pass it to her at ipoh nearby after working hour. She said a man (forgotten this man relationship with them, relative/employee.. Its been too long) will be collecting on behalf. My colleague and i drove to that destination and waited for him. He called my number saying he has reached. He took notice of me immediately since i was carrying smtg. (Actually from here, i have almost forgotten the scene... Trying my best to remember) i gave him the items with the receipts in envelope. He said he will pass to the lady or smtg like that (no stranger becoz who would have accepted anything if he was not notified earlier). Well i only realised i had forgotten to do the most important thing - I DID NOT ASK FOR HIS SIGNATURE/DETAILS TO PROVE HE HAS TAKEN THE ITEMS-DUMBEST THING EVER !!! 😞

Conversation between me and the lady stopped since her orders were fulfilled

JULY 12TH - made another order. This time i told her that no more self collection. She said ok but must change the shipping address. It was stated first to melaka but said would be better to ship to KL (have forgotten almost all the reasons she gave)
I changed the shipping address without notifying the marketplace (AGAIN MY BAD !!! Most of the time i never done this coz customers would tell to marketplace instead directing with me). The parcel reached and was signed by another name. The name, address, signature was diff but the telephone remained in the shipping address.

Conversation ended. No longer in contact. Marketplace has certified all orders made by her/boss delivered. Payment made to my company

DEC 15TH - starting to get pic from marketplace to ask me for proofs of delivery for these orders. I failed to provide since most of it deleted and those i provided were not strong enough

(Investigation has started for this case...)

MARCH 2017 - marketplace said since i couldnt present solid proofs, all orders will be charged bk and deduct from the next settlement.

Of coz i couldnt diam diam and pay back easily so i went on checking and digging bk proofs

Some details/evidence i got
- this cc holder filed to bank that he never received all the items
- the malay guy that was asked to collect at kl was actually not an employee. I contacted him since he wrote his name, ic and telephone on the receipt. He said he was a passer by and was dragged by this lady. He said she was begging her to collect coz she didnt bring ic. This malay guy agreed to help and gave her his details. She gave 4 receipts (4 orders) to him. These receipts were printed out from his/her account. It wasnt really an actual receipt but can be considered since it stated the items and quantities purchased. 2 copies receipts were screenshot by my sales person

Basically i lost all my solid proof to fight back. But here's the full story of it.
That pretty sums up the whole thing. U can say i am tge dumbest ever living person for not keeping the proofs. I can say the amount will be burned...

Sorry for the long story and my english. It went bk to school since i started working ><

Update : the matketplace has charged back us fully without prior notice and has only given us 1 week to find the proofs.

Suggest to make police report as this is related to criminal case involving of commercial cheating.

[UPDATE] Police report lodged. However, scammer couldnt be traced without actual ID and Name. Advised to lodge report to BNM. Marketplace isnt cooperating and not sharing the details of the dispute from the issuer bank. Or issuer bank didnt send any details or black & white to them  Is this even possible ? A dispute claim without proper details, IC and Name ?

How could they can't give the information when the police is investigating?

May you upload your plice report? You can't just report by specifying your case. In your report, you need to "press" to let police opens file and investigate on this matter.

Then, they will pass your case to commercial crime department and they will investigate.

Yup oledi passed to commercial crime. I gave my statement to the sarjan for almost 4 hours. He said i broke records for writting 4 pages report. That marketplace said they didnt have any black and white or ic of the disputer from the issuer bank. Not sure how possible since if bank chargeback u need to receive their B&W clear details.

Now i will direct BNM. Marketplace cannot be trusted

wah...
which market place so teruk 1..

earn commission from seller,
yet ask seller bear all the responsible...

what a great way to leech money from both shopper and merchant side...

Update

BNM advised to seek issuer bank cru unit. Cru unit said cannot attend the case becoz the merchant is a 3rd party. Police report has to be lodged by marketplace bcoz they were the one dealing the charge back n payment. Statement proving payment received and being chargeback has to be provided by marketplace in the report.

Anyway, marketplace refused to do so because they have no reason to do so. They cant provide statement becoz issuer bank hasnt charge back. The merchant has been charged but they were not charge back by issuer bank yet. Market place is holding merchant's money saying no solid proof provided that items were delivered.

Will lodge a police report against marketplace and CIMB as advised by BNM

You attended physically to BNM or via e-mail or phone?

Your case is so complicated and can't understand the part of marketplace and merchant.

There is none, even those famous one worldwide like braintree and stripe also dont bear that.

Just to provide a closure and update, my case has been resolved with justice being served and to our favour. Thank you.

Please keep us updated your case.

About the ECC code, regardless the info is saved or no, all payments must be directed to such website to enter code. If there is no, the system provider or payment processor should be liable for fraud case.

Please query this info as well to check the ECC code if that was sent or entered by the buyer.

Please provide more info how it was resolved?

Actually, we just emailed to the merchant as per forumer's advise here to question back on the details of transaction etc. Then after months of waiting, the amount was debited back to us. We were not informed of the investigation details or outcome from their side. Thanks.

Great.... Hopefully the scammer get caught ya!