We live in an imperfect world. The fact that Malaysia is in it's current state of "turmoil" per se shows just how much change we should be expecting from the higher ups. Tight airport security can hardly be considered as a margin of which we can use to gauge this situation. Why? Simply because it would be a shame if Malaysia can't even live up to the international standards of which most other international airports adhere to. It's the most tangible thing that foreigners notice the moment they step foot in Malaysia. Even then, like you mentioned - there are loopholes.

Bribery is considered a norm even in Malaysian culture. How many of you out there DID NOT bribe your driving instructors in order to get that 'P' stuck on your windscreen? Or how about bribing that traffic policeman for overtaking on a double-lined road or forgetting to put on that safety belt or double parking, etc etc etc?

It's a fine and dandy playing the blame game but in reality, the sad fact is that there is a lot that Malaysia needs to work on. This is hardly the most important(although it IS pretty significant) thing on that long to-do list.

What point would there be to treat a disease for its symptoms and not its cause?


Essentially it all boils down to interest and perspective. It would be pointless being in a world renowned university if one didn't have any real interest in the particular subject. It's like forcing down bad medicine. Don't even get me started on those whose parents hand-picked(or forced?) medicine as a career for them.

Same goes for those who choose to throw a fit and make a fuss about things instead of growing a pair and actually dealing with the situation. After all, life's all about the choices we make and how we deal with whatever implications there may be.

Note: In the post-Soviet countries, Academy is actually of a higher ranking than University.


@drgadgets: You've got it spot on.

On a short note, the Malaysiakini article was actually written few months back and was featured in THIS blog, which also touches on a MO's personal experience with some students from Russia.

THIS blog (it's link was placed up on this thread a couple of dozen pages back) has a brief and relatively accurate description of how my university, Moscow Medical Academy is like.

In Russia, it's a case of pure misconception and lack of open-ness to the IMMENSELY DIFFERENT culture around us. Many here choose to stick to the Malaysian community consisting of rudimentary mindsets which have unfortunately syndesis-ed and hence we get cases like that article. Perfect setting for stagnant philosophies. Do take into account that most leave home for Russia immediately after SPM (this is true especially for government students, who only go through a 3 month prep course before being admitted into the 1st year) some as young as 15, 16 year olds. That plus the Malaysian attitude towards learning (which to a certain extent we all are/were guilty of) whereby obtaining high marks trumps getting an actual grasp of the subject - you get the oh-so-perfect students who say oh-so-wonderful things about a place they know oh-so-well.

Of course, Russian universities aren't perfect, especially not mine - but who asked them to blindly jump on the bandwagon?

This post has been edited by it-int: May 30 2009, 11:53 AM

What any other student who's actually interested in learning would do - gain as much knowledge as I can and make full use of the resources available here. Undoubtedly, action in the end speaks louder than words.

I know a guy from my university who knew better theory than a HO did during his elective posting. I know of local graduates who know squat about ECGs. I also know that medical students from UM find it ok to shake sleeping patients up because they did a crappy job getting the patient's case history the first time and the second time as well as the third time around. And that some doctors actually find it a waste of time to get proper case histories from patients - only focusing on the symptom but not the disease.

And regardless of how well anyone did for his pharmacology/anatomy/physiology exam, if he doesn't take the effort to constantly read up on past subjects - he's bound to forget. Good student/bad student, local uni/UK, US, Aust, Russian uni - whatever. If one can't challenge or motivate himself to complete a task and is stuck on society's prejudices - What else can be said?

Everyone has the ability to make their own choices in life. Why most let the mainstream mindset make the choices for them is beyond me. Perhaps the Malaysian education system needs to be improved. We seem to be producing too many "Alah, buat ape study banyak2? Study senior's notes cukup ah. buku tu tebal sangat, malas nak bukak" people and when they fall short "eh, babi ah cikgu tu. Racist/sexist kut, semua benda pun tanya - hapak pun takde dalam senior's notes" or the sit on their ass "God will bring me through(even if I stayed up watching animes/dramas/playing DOTA all night)" holier-than-thou ones or the "eh, my last year di, I better enjoy myself kau-kau before I grad, later no life (and proceed to throw EVERYTHING to the wind and choose to live up to everyone's 'expectations') after all MOs all going to 'kill' me wat, layan oni"

So yes, stereotype Russian graduates. Most are probably sub-par anyways. But occasionally, try not to be too surprised when there are those who come out with knowledge paralleling that of seasoned MOs. Who knows, you might learn a thing or two from them.

This post has been edited by it-int: May 31 2009, 01:22 PM

Dude, I'm pointing out an undeniable fact that bribery is RAMPANT in Malaysia. Just because neither one of us have resorted to bribery doesn't mean the rest of the Malaysian population don't.

We come from a society brainwashed into thinking that becoming a doctor is all glory and fame and wealth. Almost everyone under the age of 18 has an idea of how things would be but not many really try to know more than they need to - most don't really BOTHER to really get to know what they're going into.

About 1/3 the UM medical faculty quit by the time they hit third year because they FINALLY realized that medicine's not for them. It's easier for them since they wouldn't have spent as much on the course anyways.



Tsk. So yeah. Whatever else I'd written seems to have fallen on blind eyes.

There are a few types of people who come to Russia:
1 - Those who scored 3-5As for their STPM but didn't get offered medicine in their local uni apps.
2 - Those who did average during their pre-U but are insaf and determined to do better
3 - Those who did average and don't know what the hell they want to do.
4 - Scholars - MARA and JPA students

Reason why 1,2 and 3 chose Russia was because it was cheap. Not many can afford to go to UK, US, Australia. I can't imagine having to make my parents shell out >RM1 million just because I want to be a doctor. Money DOESN'T grow on trees. And as much as we want, some have siblings who also want to become future professionals.

Like I said before, the stuff they teach you here? TOP NOTCH. And if you've mastered Russian - a world of possibilities opens up for you. If the administrative side here would be more efficient, local unis don't even stand a chance.

The fact that they're lax with their policy on cheating doesn't mean that they don't try. For certain subjects, the lecturers had to constantly change the mcq programs but time and time again, the students would steal the newly reconstructed mcq programs. Eventually, the lecturers gave up.

During classes and lectures, lecturers go the extra mile to teach students - What's the response?
- "This teacher... teruk lah - teach everything that's not in the book, jump here jump there" when what the lecturer did was condense material from previous classes.

Tell me... As much as you hope to enlighten these future 'aspiring' doctors, what kind of "advice" are you going to give? Because from the looks of it, all you seem to have under that belt is a string of prejudices about something that frankly, you don't seem to know enough of.

Russians have lived a hard life that none of us can even begin to imagine. Most of us don't even know our own Malaysian history all that well apatah lagi the history and culture of another country? Here - You get what you paid for. And a whole lot more. What won't kill you will only make you stronger.

For the record - MMC has already de-recognized one of them. The final batch graduates next year. And as much as people tend to equate Ukraine to Russia, after USSR collapsed - Ukraine and Russia became 2 totally different countries.

I'll have to admit that I did slightly overexaggerate the number of UM dropouts/failures/quitters - For that I apologize. Broaden the scope and compare the number of those who enter and the number of those who graduate. More than just 2-3.

I was merely trying to point out a fact that most people do not know what they're getting themselves into when it comes to medicine or any other profession for that matter.

In the course of 6 years here in Moscow Medical Academy,

1. Microbiology class, students are taught the many different hands-on methods of cultivating the microbes, preparing slides using Gram stain, Kligler agar test, Ziehl-Neelsen staining, Methylene blue staining, Carbol fuchsin staining, and identifying the microbes involved.
   
   
2. Histology and Pathology classes, we're taught to identify slides based on their composition - healthy components from the neutrophils, engorged vessels, sclerosed/hypertrophied/atrophied glomerulus, etc etc etc
   What do these jokers do? Memorise the number on the slides(150+ numbered) and which number has what on what slide. Many don't even know what differentiates a large intestine slide from a small intestine. Or even what the word 'engorged' means.
   
   
3. Pharmacology - where most stumble. Unfortunately here we sometimes have what ranges from 20 - 40 students per class. BUT the teachers are nothing but strict. Efficient and merciless - they ask thinking questions NOT found in seniors' notes. Failing people on the dot for not knowing. But what happens during finals? Gune handsfree bawah tudung/long hair. Shocked siut dengar people bisik-bisik cam tu. (although, I suppose this practice has been going on for a while now for. I wonder just how long exactly?). Sure they tell you not to bring in your handphones - But what do you expect? Them to frisk every single student?
   
   
4. Clinical years - Try speaking broken, unintelligible English/Chinese/Malay to your patients and see what kinda answers you get? It sickens me to see students who hear sounds of a mitral prolapse and get so overly excited they forget there's an old man under that stethoscope. Even worse are those who don't know what they hear and 'fake' answers when the lecturers quiz them about it. We were taught the different heart and lung sounds - difference between types of murmurs, etc - I'll bet most have either forgotten or never bothered to learn it in the first place.

Humans - we forget. Too easily sometimes. Hence why there's the constant need to refresh our memory. What we have most are lazy students who're more interested in DOTA, anime, drama series and griping about the strict teachers that teach "too much". So what if most do well in the finals - with or without that 'toyol'? Main memorize je for exams. Hapak pun tak faham. Lagi la cepat lupe.

Pray tell, without Google and be honest with yourself, after all you only have yourself to answer to:
- What is absence seizure?
- Coronary steal syndrome?
- Ondine's Curse?
- Heard of aseptic peritonitis?

All these taught by 3rd year. Not the lecturer's fault the students don't know now is it?


On a separate note, rubbish bins are few and scattered around Moscow, and yet it's almost as clean as a whistle. Unlike Malaysia where tong sampah everywhere, but sampah merata-rata and even AROUND the tong sampah.

There's a difference between cultured and uncultured mentalities. All countries have varying degrees of the 2. Which one does Malaysia seem to have more of?

This post has been edited by it-int: Jun 1 2009, 11:43 PM

Sigh

Somehow it seems pointless to try to reason with people who have become so prejudiced that words just don't seem to get through to them.

Even if common sense comes knocking on the door, it will NEVER get in unless you actually open the door.

To compare Russia and UK.... Can you even compare local unis to UK unis? You think Malaysia is so much better? Has anyone read THIS before? Tell me exactly how is this better in terms of cheating? SAMA JE.

My university requires all of us to have the "No Objection Certificate" (better known as the NOC letter) in order to study here. And who gives these letters out? So now what? Derecognize the government?

ALL my lecturers so far have been practicing doctors, researchers and professors with years of Russian experience. Some have even presented at international medical conferences. Been invited or paid to present in Russian, English, German. Some conduct ongoing researches and speak from experience of the results obtained.

I only just recently heard about SLAB and SLAI. If there's even an ounce of truth there then I'm rendered speechless because in that case, Moscow Medical Academy lecturers trump local universities'.

Tsk tsk tsk. You guys. To say shame on you would probably be too harsh - but there, I said it.

Just because you think some diseases are rare and irrelevant DOESN'T MEAN it's irrelevant. And it is SIMPLE COMMON SENSE to know about the common diseases but that should not restrict you from knowing about the rare ones. Are you implying that a person suffering from a rare disease is less deserving than one who suffers from a common disease? So because you are not well read enough and are unable to diagnose a patient suffering from a rare disease ultimately it EXEMPTS you from taking responsibility?

Doctors konon. Study just enough to pass. Yeah, it's rare therefore its unimportant - you wouldn't even know if you missed a diagnosis and caused the death of a patient. Ignorance is bliss isn't it?

I didn’t mean to say that doctors aren’t allowed to make mistakes. We all have different philosophies in life. And to impose mine on others when I'm still green behind the ears is simply unfair. I do sincerely apologize. Doctors are all only human and yes, we all make mistakes and hence have to live with the ones that got away. I dread the time when the blood of a patient would be on me. It would be inevitable but I sure as hell can try my best to prevent that.

Let me just reiterate what I have already said –
It is essential and in fact very crucial for us to know the common diseases but there really is no harm knowing extra. Medicine itself is a continuous learning journey. I was merely trying to point out that knowing these extra bits of information on top of the knowledge of common diseases is what differentiates an excellent student from a good student here in Russia.

The core issue here is that all you hear are budak-budak grad from Russia teruk. Hapak pun tak tahu. And that instead of focusing on the reason behind it, all want to derecognize Russian universities.

I’m here to tell you to “Hey, stop for a minute and try to really analyze this situation for a moment”

Over the course of my studies, I have learnt that Russia tries to teach us to see not only the trees, but the woods themselves. Nothing is too unimportant to know. But to what degree we choose to absorb this knowledge or write it off as ‘too much’ or ‘unimportant’ undoubtedly lies within ourselves.
Opportunity can come knocking on all doors and windows but unless you open them, opportunity will pass you by.

As I have constantly been told it’s always patients –> books –> patients –> books no matter how senior a doctor you are.

It is always easy to judge, discriminate and stereotype. Too easy. Unless you’re in a person’s shoes, you will never feel how comfortable/uncomfortable the shoes are.

Stop listening to the half who has not “lived” in Russia. The half

• who live in their own little Malaysian community rarely venturing out of the hostel,
• who gripe about petty things like how far it is to travel to class,
• who’re so quick to judge the way others choose to live their lives (Malaysian guys and girls dress just as skimpily - it’s just… comparatively Russian girls look better in skimpy outfits),
• who complain when the lecturers actually do fail them – yeah, you read that right. Lecturers here fail people too! Over and over again at times – until you show that you know something.
• who claim that the teachers suck when they themselves refuse to look beyond the prejudices of their own biased seniors who really don’t know any better.

Listen to the half that does study – the ones that do realize and try our best to make full use of this hidden treasure.

Money does not grow on trees (no matter how much we all wish it did) and hence Russia was the choice. World class education at a fraction of what it would normally cost.

As much as you try to understand, it really is impossible to even grasp the true meaning of being in Russia. It is unlike ANY other place in the world. Reading about a place and experiencing it are 2 totally different things. Take it from a person who has learnt to live and make the best out of Russia.

Now, as much as I would like to continue this discussion – I’ve got a ton of studying to do and until I have more time, I doubt I’ll be back.

If I said something uncalled for I humbly apologize. Thank you all for reading what I’ve had to say so far. I appreciate all the feedback I’ve gotten and I’d like to personally thank EVERYONE for taking the time to reply.


For those who want to know what I have to say about the 4 terms I'd mentioned:


Again, I urge you all to not write off the quality of education available to the students here in Russia. For we all know that ultimately the decision to study all depends on the individual.