there are 400+k students per cohort .....the ter system is based purely on percentile ranking, NOT marks, so the top 5% will be 20K students plus..........these are the ones getting the straight a's in spm (what, more than 6k alone this year?) and those with mostly a's and a few b's........before anyone talk about NOT using spm again, this is the LAST common exams for msians, it doesn't matter what they do after, matrik, stpm, a levels whatever, the top 5% at spm will also produce the top 5% at the matriculation level in general........

Plight of JPA medical scholars
Letters
by Frustrated JPA scholar

I am a medical student sponsored by JPA to study in Ireland about to complete my studies. I write to you after reading your article on the rot of the Malaysian healthcare system. We JPA scholars here have been very frustrated with the JPA enforcing us to immediately return to the country upon graduation, barring us from continuing training as interns (equivalent of houseman) in the countries where we graduated from This would mean we cannot obtain the sufficient exposure that would make our training complete, and would off course, mean a waste of taxpayers money as there would have been no difference with studying locally.

JPA had announced recently that none of its medical scholars overseas will be allowed the opportunity to do further train overseas even at their own expanses, and are to return ASAP upon graduation. No scholar would be allowed to stay on regardless of the training posts they obtain upon graduation. To add to the spice of JPA's foolishness, it seems that JPA gives priority to romantic relationships over the academic achievements of its scholars by giving exception to remain overseas to those who are married to a fellow JPA/MARA sponsored student who are still commencing studies in the foreign country concerned.

Till today, I have yet to comprehend the narrow minded policies set by the JPA. JPA seems to fail to understand that by allowing its scholars to stay on for postgraduate training, many will be offered positions in world-renowned healthcare institutions. The exposure and experience gained through these positions would be an invaluable asset to the country and the rakyat in the future. Unfortunately, JPA seems to be adamant in having fresh graduate doctors returning to receive Malaysian medical training, instead of allowing these fresh grads to further train themselves and one day return as first world specialists who will reform and infuse new uptodate skills in Malaysian Healthcare a few years down the road. Also of importance is the availability of funding to do research work in these foreign teaching hospitals, which is significantly lacking in Malaysia. Would it not make Malaysia proud if Malaysian Doctors were publishing their research work in heavy weight journals in the medical world. Upon return, these foreign trained doctors will then be able to start up a trend of research-based medicine, to the benefit of the ranking of Malaysian universities who lose out because of lack in research.

This immediate return policy has also stunted the motivation of many JPA scholars. Housemanship placements in Malaysia show disregard to academic achievements. It is random where one is sent to at best, and at its worst influenced by racism and cronism. This off course does not help in encouraging JPA scholars to strive to improve themselves. Knowing the fact that additional experience, eg opitional research and academic grades do not count later on, there are some who have lost motivation, and many who have been apprehensive in taking further steps to improve themselves due to the fear that the JPAs immediate return policy might put all their effort into waste by abruptly discontinuing their work.

Starting year 2008, there will be at least 2000 Malaysian fresh medical graduates from the various public and private universities sprouting throughout the country, not to forget graduates returning from Russia, Indonesia, India and Ukraine. This number is likely to rise over the coming years. Will MOH be able to cope with the demand for training posts? Will the ministry of health be able to provide enough housemenship positions, and if yes, will these posts provide high quality training, as the saying goes 'too many cooks spoil the soup'? In the long term, will the ministry of health be able to provide enough specialist opportunities, considering its eagerness to do away with MRCP and only recognize the local masters program? My fear is that there will be a bottleneck down the pipeline, and many competent doctors will be failed by JPA and the ministry of health's poor planning. Henceforth, to lessen the burden on the Malaysian Healthcare system, it would only be simple common sense to allow those graduating from foreign universities who are offered good opportunities to continue with their post graduate training overseas without having to return immediately, as it is the easiest way to gain access to train in these countries.

During one of the talks given by JPA officials who visited Ireland, a student raised a question on the rationale of JPAs 'immediate return policies'. The officer in charge went in a rage and accused the people who wanted to stay as 'just wanting to earn money'. I could not believe the narrow mindedness behind these words. For one, what is wrong with earning money? Also, many JPA scholars are top achievers, and view further career advancement as the driving force behind their intention to remain and continue training overseas. The plight of these JPA scholars has fallen on deaf ears of the JPA authorities. Many of JPA's policy makers are not doctors themselves. How are they to understand the need of good training even at a post graduate level.

Finally, I would like to stress that all JPA scholars love their country, and would love to return to serve. However to my view, it would be better to return after adequate exposure to first world healthcare, as this would bring the most benefit to the rakyat. I am also fully aware that a contract is a contract, (despite the fact JPA changed the contract one-sidedly half way through our training from a penalty of RM160,000 to approximately a million ringgit) without prior warning), and if JPA remains adamant to prevent its scholars to further develop their skills overseas, the only thing we can do is to return as housemen. The authorities in JPA, however, should understand that to attract talent in the public service, the more effective methods would be by improving pay, ensuring fairness by meritocracy and adequate training opportunities,. By using brute force, many may return, but only with the intention of leaving as soon as the bond imposed is over.

How do you know there are 400+K of students per cohort?? Any source to verify this? Btw, i am talking about TER for SAM, not SPM. Good SPM results don't usually translates into good Pre U results (A level especially)
As i have mentioned before, although it is the last common exam for Msian students, it's debatable marking scheme makes it an ineffective tool to measure one's ability/eligibility. Pre U result is more accurate. Although there are many Pre U programs around, it's still far better than using SPM as benchmark. If not, why do you think medical schools look at Pre U result rather than SPM???

Btw, just curious, which medical school are you from? Or you are already working?? how come you got so much free time to be so active in this forum??  Or perhaps my time management is bad 

you could have just googled it, but anyway, nah........

http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/NST/Thu...icle/index_html

you are still not understanding what i am saying.......i am NOT saying you choose medical students from form 5.......i beginning to sound like a stuck record.......potential medical students MUST undergo a formal matriculation programme, be it stpm, matrik, sam, a levels, cpu whatever......and these students selected from the top 5%........since it is difficult to equate these different matriculation pathways, the nearest COMMON exam that ALL these students go through can be used as a rough yardstick......on the assumption that the top 5% performers at spm will also be the top 5% performers at their subsequent respective matriculation.......of course it WILL NOT correlate completely but it would correlate enough to be a basis for determining if a potential student has been selected on merit.........it is NOT exact science.....

20k students is more than enough to select 3k for medicine........

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Added on March 24, 2008, 12:03 amand in reply to the jpa scholar, if you accept the scholarship, accept the conditions attached.........too many jpa scholars break their bond, it has become a bit of a joke........in the interview, some are asking what the bond penalty is if they break the bond, even before they are given the scholarship.......

if you want to stay back there, DON'T take the scholarship........jpa scholars are spending taxpayers money......lots of it, and the least they can do is to return and repay their social debt by returning to provide their much needed service......

the issue on meritocracy (or the lack of ) in service matters is a different kettle of fish altogether.......staying back in foreign countries for housejobs and 'training' does NOT solve the problem........

Dude, you are not getting my points either. I am not saying medical schools choose candidates with SPM results. All i am asking you is why you keep on stressing that SPM is an important yardstick or benchmark for Msian students. Why not just look at their Pre U results, the med schools they graduate from (reputable or not), Med school results and clinical performance, which provide better and more accurate assessment for a doctor/medical graduate's ability.

Btw, are you in medical school or working as a doctor?

pre-u (matriculation): too variable......how do you compare??

issue here is  ENTRY..........med school results/performance does NOT come into the picture at this stage......

is it that difficult to understand??

okay, since you insist.......this is just my estimate of the equivalent of top 5%

stpm: A- A- A-
matrik: cgpa 3.9
a-level: AAA
sam: ter 95 (duh)
uec: A2 A2 A2
ib: 40

Btw, why do you care about entry so much?? Isn't med school results, clinical performance more important and are more likely to distinguish good doctors from bad ones??

aim of all this is to reduce variability to as low as possible.......this is NOT a trial and error experiment......" okay let's see, we shall take this group of students, see how they do.....oops, oh dear, we got a lot of bad ones, they just killed some patients.......bugger........."

---

Added on March 24, 2008, 12:31 amisn't it painfully obvious from my comments?

you could have just googled it, but anyway, nah........

http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/NST/Thu...icle/index_html

you are still not understanding what i am saying.......i am NOT saying you choose medical students from form 5.......i beginning to sound like a stuck record.......potential medical students MUST undergo a formal matriculation programme, be it stpm, matrik, sam, a levels, cpu whatever......and these students selected from the top 5%........since it is difficult to equate these different matriculation pathways, the nearest COMMON exam that ALL these students go through can be used as a rough yardstick......on the assumption that the top 5% performers at spm will also be the top 5% performers at their subsequent respective matriculation.......of course it WILL NOT correlate completely but it would correlate enough to be a basis for determining if a potential student has been selected on merit.........it is NOT exact science.....

20k students is more than enough to select 3k for medicine........

http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2008/03/23/pli...lars/#more-1107

This is for those insterested in medic.

The authorities in JPA, however, should understand that to attract talent in the public service, the more effective methods would be by improving pay, ensuring fairness by meritocracy and adequate training opportunities,

Yes, there shall be balance of EQ n IQ. However, it is not so easy to assess EQ compare to assess IQ because IQ can just simply take from how many score u have. However, not all those high grade does really have high IQ because u know a lot of us just do memorize more rather understanding. Still, i believe there shall be kuota for male n female. My batch was so many girl, that sometimes we have to listen them althought their idea is just simply rubbish. Majority win, huh..?

Melbourne is unique in oz, as the one which rely purely on ter scores in selection, so most of the students actually have ter above 99.75........the other oz undergraduate med schools rely on a combination of applitude test scores (umat, isat pqa), interview, and ter......and generally, the vast majority of selected students will have a ter above 95...........

http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2008/03/23/pli...lars/#more-1107

This is for those insterested in medic.

Dude, you talk like you dun know about medical education at all. Most well known medical schools have certain standards to be met. Therefore, failing rates are quite high for most well known medical schools (IMU, Melaka Manipal). There are also external examiners which serves as control of quality (well, this point is valid unless you wanna talk about political reasons again).

Btw, why dun you just answer my question straight, are you a medical student or doctor? Are you ashame of your school or yourself??

So now, you talk like you are a health director....hmmm
So who are you?? Medical student, doctor, or health director??

aim of all this is to reduce variability to as low as possible.......this is NOT a trial and error experiment......" okay let's see, we shall take this group of students, see how they do.....oops, oh dear, we got a lot of bad ones, they just killed some patients.......bugger........."

and to reduce wastage........every student kicked out is a waste of time, money, and more importantly, waste of a place and a potential doctor for the country.....

if you ever become a manager/planner for a country's health service, you will know what i mean.....

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Added on March 24, 2008, 12:31 amisn't it painfully obvious from my comments?

Dude, you talk like you dun know about medical education at all. Most well known medical schools have certain standards to be met. Therefore, failing rates are quite high for most well known medical schools (IMU, Melaka Manipal). There are also external examiners which serves as control of quality (well, this point is valid unless you wanna talk about political reasons again).

Btw, why dun you just answer my question straight, are you a medical student or doctor? Are you ashame of your school or yourself??

And since you place much emphasis on SPM, why dun you share with us your results??

And one thing you must know, not all top students willing to do medicine, as it is not a good option (long working hours, not so high pay, stress, great responsibility, etc). Therefore, entry requirement for medical schools varies from year to year.

And waste of place for potential doctor you said??? DUDE, pls make sense when you post. If there are students with better results willing to do medicine, do you think the medical schools will leave them out and take in those with lower scores instead??? So why a waste of place???

So now, you talk like you are a health director....hmmm
So who are you?? Medical student, doctor, or health director??

---

Added on March 24, 2008, 1:21 am
Dude, why did you give me link to SPM results?? I am asking about SAM, of which you stated there are about 400+k students per cohort, from which the TER calculated.

hm.... guess what they told me during my interview in IMU.... your results looks good enough to be an engineer, why do u want to be a doctor??

So which one needs better results? Doctor? or Engineer? The answer to this? It doesn't really matter, its the end results that matters.... if you are not able to pass at university level, it doesn't matter how well you did in Pre-U....

One consultant once told me.... there is no point being a brilliant/smart doctor, what we need are good and safe doctors.....

I'll say this upfront: I'm not a medical student. But if you can't tell what Limeuu is from his postings, you really need to read more between the lines.

Still, I'll give him a hand this time:

i am getting very disappointed that a medical student cannot understand simple concepts like this......

any student after the first few weeks, dropping or flunking out means a wasted slot in the training of doctors..........the slot cannot be replaced by another student..........you have deprived the country of one potential doctor, and another student of taking up the course.....medical schools should aim for zero drop out, which can be achieved if the right candidates are selected.....

lower scores?....no.......the reason why ipts med school are taking in low scorers is because they are the ones why can PAY the fees.....lots of better qualified, interested, and suitable students will not even apply........simply because they cannot afford......that is bad....selection based on how rich you are NOT on how good you are........

CAN YOU JUST FORGET ABOUT SAM AND THE TER? we are talking about msian, and who to select to become doctors. there are more than 400k going through spm every year, after which into many different matriculation programmes and potential doctors should be chosen from the top 5% of this cohort of 400k students......

this is a really messed up country, public funded ipta is in diasarray.......allowing the ipts to flourish......which means basically, you buy a degree.......which is fine for most courses, except for medicine.........where there MUST be controls to ensure only academically strong, applititudly appropriate students be taken in.......it is not an experiment, not trial and error.......and i think an error appears to have been committed right now.......

there are 400+k students per cohort .....the ter system is based purely on percentile ranking, NOT marks, so the top 5% will be 20K students plus..........these are the ones getting the straight a's in spm (what, more than 6k alone this year?) and those with mostly a's and a few b's........before anyone talk about NOT using spm again, this is the LAST common exams for msians, it doesn't matter what they do after, matrik, stpm, a levels whatever, the top 5% at spm will also produce the top 5% at the matriculation level in general........

I'll say this upfront: I'm not a medical student. But if you can't tell what Limeuu is from his postings, you really need to read more between the lines.

Still, I'll give him a hand this time:

IF he is a medical student or doctor, why not just admit it openly instead of giving "hints" through his posts and let people play the guessing game?
If you are a medical student/doctor, why not just admit it?? So are you  or are you not? This question is important as i see no point in debating with someone who is not in the medical field.

obviously you cannot take the CONCEPT of a percentile ranking system like the oz ter system, and apply it on the local scenerio.......the bell shape curve is the same....

i think it is pointless to continue, my point are clear, i leave it to the readers to come to their own conclusion........those who can understand will understnad, those who can't, or wouldn't, well......the education has failed us, and we are really taking inappropriate people into ipts med schools for money.......

I'm not a big fan of limeuu as we've had disagreements before, but this really gave me a laugh which I haven't had for a long time.    

It is really obvious what his occupation is, he has said and pointed it out. Hell, even haya highlighted it. As a med student, you really shouldn't be expected to be spoon fed anymore. When you actually do see patients, you will need to be very attentive to what they say. The solution which leads to the right diagnostic might be there and you don't want to miss it, do you? By the way, out of curiosity, which uni are you getting your medical education from? Manipal?

aim of all this is to reduce variability to as low as possible.......this is NOT a trial and error experiment......" okay let's see, we shall take this group of students, see how they do.....oops, oh dear, we got a lot of bad ones, they just killed some patients.......bugger........."

and to reduce wastage........every student kicked out is a waste of time, money, and more importantly, waste of a place and a potential doctor for the country.....

if you ever become a manager/planner for a country's health service, you will know what i mean.....

---

Added on March 24, 2008, 12:31 amisn't it painfully obvious from my comments?

How do you know there are 400+K of students per cohort?? Any source to verify this? Btw, i am talking about TER for SAM, not SPM. Good SPM results don't usually translates into good Pre U results (A level especially)
As i have mentioned before, although it is the last common exam for Msian students, it's debatable marking scheme makes it an ineffective tool to measure one's ability/eligibility. Pre U result is more accurate. Although there are many Pre U programs around, it's still far better than using SPM as benchmark. If not, why do you think medical schools look at Pre U result rather than SPM???

Btw, just curious, which medical school are you from? Or you are already working?? how come you got so much free time to be so active in this forum??  Or perhaps my time management is bad 

Dude, you are not getting my points either. I am not saying medical schools choose candidates with SPM results. All i am asking you is why you keep on stressing that SPM is an important yardstick or benchmark for Msian students. Why not just look at their Pre U results, the med schools they graduate from (reputable or not), Med school results and clinical performance, which provide better and more accurate assessment for a doctor/medical graduate's ability.

Btw, are you in medical school or working as a doctor?

Why is it difficult to assess someone by their Pre U results??
For Sam, look at TER. For me, 93 and above is good.
A levels, 3 As and above is good
Canadian Pre U, more than 95 is good.

Btw, why do you care about entry so much?? Isn't med school results, clinical performance more important and are more likely to distinguish good doctors from bad ones??

Btw, you consistently avoided my question. Are you a medical student or a doctor?

Hmm, see, it isn't too difficult after all.
Also, again i make my stand, i see no point in benchmarking a doctor/medical students with just SPM results, thanks to its falling standard and debatable marking scheme.
Again you avoided my question. ARE YOU A MEDICAL STUDENT OR A DOCTOR? I seriously see no point in debating with someone who is not in the medical field.