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> Military Thread V23

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yinchet
post Feb 26 2017, 09:58 PM

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QUOTE(MilitaryMadness @ Feb 26 2017, 06:35 PM)
I don't hold faith in today's gun-armed tank destroyer concepts. They don't have the ability anymore. In WW2 tank destroyers had much better-quality guns that outgun and outrange most contemporary tank guns. This made them hold the advantage in stand-off combat with regular tanks.

For example while both the M1 Sherman and M10 Wldcat was armed with a 75mm gun, the M10 Wildcat was armed with a long-barreled 75mm gun derived from an anti-aircraft weapon. This gun had better range and muzzle velocity than the Sherman tank's gun.

What advantage does a modern tank destroyer's gun have with the MBTs it is supposed to be destroying? An ATGM has better range, accuracy and guaranteed kill rates than any gun. Reviving the gun-armed tank destroyer concept is like reviving the static anti-tank gun in this day and age.

I imagine the concept of an assault gun nowadays as an infantry support weapon still has currency, but the role is far different from destroying armored  tanks.
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I would love to see 76mm gun back into the field.
It would easily destory helicopters, ifv and apc.
Currently seeing just too many 30mm and 40mm gun.
MilitaryMadness
post Feb 26 2017, 10:49 PM

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QUOTE(yinchet @ Feb 26 2017, 09:58 PM)
I would love to see 76mm gun back into the field.
It would easily destory helicopters, ifv and apc.
Currently seeing just too many 30mm and 40mm gun.
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In what role?

IMHO 20mm or 30mm autocannons are already ideal weapons for IFV platform. Those types of calibers can already damage/destroy almost all types of armored vehicles until up to IFV level. Vehicles can carry more ammo and autocannons can already reach up to 2-3 km no problem.

Also, smaller caliber are more versatile, as they are more suited to be used against a variety of smaller targets that IFVs usually encounter like infantry, field fortifications and lighter vehicles.Also, rapid-firing autocannons are much more suited to shoot down aerial targets like helicopters or UAVs than heavy single shot guns.

If lighter armored vehicles are fitted with heavier guns they might be tempted to be used more to hunt 'bears' (heavy armor)rather than their intended role to hunt 'rabbits (infantry)'. Besides, for anything heavier most IFVs are armed with ATGM already.
Fat & Fluffy
post Feb 26 2017, 10:58 PM

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QUOTE(MilitaryMadness @ Feb 27 2017, 12:49 AM)
In what role?

IMHO 20mm or 30mm autocannons are already ideal weapons for IFV platform. Those types of calibers can already damage/destroy almost all types of armored vehicles until up to IFV level. Vehicles can carry more ammo and autocannons can already reach up to 2-3 km no problem.

Also, smaller caliber are more versatile, as they are more suited to be used against a variety of smaller targets that IFVs usually encounter like infantry, field fortifications and lighter vehicles.Also, rapid-firing autocannons are much more suited to shoot down aerial targets like helicopters or UAVs than heavy single shot guns.

If lighter armored vehicles are fitted with heavier guns they might be tempted to be used more to hunt 'bears' (heavy armor)rather than their intended role to hunt 'rabbits (infantry)'. Besides, for anything heavier most IFVs are armed with ATGM already.
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Battlefield1942
post Feb 26 2017, 11:13 PM

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BMP-3 turret offer the best of both world with 100mm and 30mm autocanon and 7mm MG. It also can be fitted with ATGM launcher on the turret. No wonder UAE standardize on a single turret for it BMP-3 and MRAP and 8x8 Wheeled IFV.
Fat & Fluffy
post Feb 26 2017, 11:23 PM

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QUOTE(Battlefield1942 @ Feb 27 2017, 01:13 AM)
BMP-3 turret offer the best of both world with 100mm and 30mm autocanon and 7mm MG. It also can be fitted with ATGM launcher on the turret. No wonder UAE standardize on a single turret for it BMP-3 and MRAP and 8x8 Wheeled IFV.
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byk mahal mang... only pak arab can afford... and by the way their armor are dropping like flies... i doubt will be cost effective
patt_sue
post Feb 26 2017, 11:34 PM

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QUOTE(yinchet @ Feb 26 2017, 09:58 PM)
I would love to see 76mm gun back into the field.
It would easily destory helicopters, ifv and apc.
Currently seeing just too many 30mm and 40mm gun.
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talking about 76mm gun,is 'rooikat' still in service with south african army ?

a battle proven armoured vehicle that can use naval 76mm ammo.. rooikat probably among the first 8x8 armored vehicle in the world.. rooikat was produced to counter Angolan t55 tank
yinchet
post Feb 26 2017, 11:56 PM

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QUOTE(MilitaryMadness @ Feb 26 2017, 10:49 PM)
In what role?

IMHO 20mm or 30mm autocannons are already ideal weapons for IFV platform. Those types of calibers can already damage/destroy almost all types of armored vehicles until up to IFV level. Vehicles can carry more ammo and autocannons can already reach up to 2-3 km no problem.

Also, smaller caliber are more versatile, as they are more suited to be used against a variety of smaller targets that IFVs usually encounter like infantry, field fortifications and lighter vehicles.Also, rapid-firing autocannons are much more suited to shoot down aerial targets like helicopters or UAVs than heavy single shot guns.

If lighter armored vehicles are fitted with heavier guns they might be tempted to be used more to hunt 'bears' (heavy armor)rather than their intended role to hunt 'rabbits (infantry)'. Besides, for anything heavier most IFVs are armed with ATGM already
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Some are moving toward 40mm.
Honestly 20mm and 30mm become less effective on newer generation armor vehicle not every1 can afford DU round.
76mm can rapid fire at least for naval gun. hmm.gif
MilitaryMadness
post Feb 27 2017, 07:44 AM

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QUOTE(patt_sue @ Feb 26 2017, 11:34 PM)
a battle proven armoured vehicle that can use naval 76mm ammo.. rooikat probably among the first 8x8 armored vehicle in the world.. rooikat was produced to counter Angolan t55 tank
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Hahaha anything also can be used to counter a T-55. It's a dainty, fragile little tank, even back in the 1950s. laugh.gif

BTW as if South Africa ever had a shortage of Olifant (locally-built Centurion) MBTs anyway.

Fat & Fluffy
post Feb 27 2017, 09:32 AM

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Abu Sayyaf beheads German hostage

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Islamist militants in the Philippines have reportedly beheaded a German man who, eight years ago, survived being held for nearly two months by Somali pirates.

According to reports that security officials said they have yet to fully verify, Abu Sayyaf murdered Mr Jurgen Kantner, 70, after the collapse of talks for his release in exchange for a 30 million-peso (S$854,000) ransom.

"Despite efforts exerted by groups and the security forces, I have received reports about the alleged beheading of a German kidnap victim in Sulu (on) Sunday afternoon," Mr Jesus Dureza, President Rodrigo Duterte's peace adviser and chief hostage negotiator, said in a statement he issued late on Sunday evening (Feb 26).

A police report released earlier in the afternoon said Mr Kantner, a sailing enthusiast, was executed at around 3.30pm, on Sunday (Feb 26), in Buanza district, Indanan town, Sulu province, 1,500km south of the capital Manila.

Mr Kantner was beheaded by men under a certain Muammar Askali, alias Abu Rami, purportedly a unit leader of the brutal Abu Sayyaf group, linked to the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria.

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Mr Dureza said Colonel Cirilito Sobejana, Joint Sulu Task Force commander, told him "validation efforts of such report is still ongoing".

Major-General Carlito Galvez, commander of the Western Mindanao Command, and Colonel Edgard Arevalo, head of the military's public affairs office, said they also received unconfirmed information from the field that Mr Kantner was beheaded.

Colonel Arevalo said security forces were still "on search-and rescue" mode, till they could determine what really happened to Mr Kantner.

Brigadier-General Restituto Padilla, the military spokesman, said: "Until sufficient proof is obtained..., our assumption remains that the subject kidnapped victim is alive and well. Do not believe unvalidated information going around until proven otherwise."

Mr Kantner was abducted while he and his wife, Ms Sabine Merz, were cruising a dangerous area of the Philippines, by the Abu Sayyaf, an insurgent group known for kidnapping and ransoming foreigners.

Ms Merz was killed, purportedly when she tried to fight back with a shotgun.

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The couple have been sailing the oceans for many years aboard their 53-footer, the Rockall.

They were held for 52 days in Somalia in 2008 before their captors freed them, reportedly after a six-figure ransom had been paid.

The Abu Sayyaf has defied more than a decade of US-backed military offensives against it and gone a lucrative kidnapping spree in recent years.

In 2014, the militants abducted another German couple off a yacht in the southern Philippines. They released the pair six months later after receiving what they said was the full ransom demand of US$5.1 million.

rdancel@sph.com.sg
azriel
post Feb 27 2017, 10:56 AM

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Live firing test of the Indonesian Marines new Norinco Type 90B MLRS.

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MilitaryMadness
post Feb 27 2017, 11:12 AM

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QUOTE(azriel @ Feb 27 2017, 10:56 AM)
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Nice camouflage. The sliding canvas can cover the launcher unit and make it as if they are normal transport lorries.
ayanami_tard
post Feb 27 2017, 05:24 PM

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QUOTE(MilitaryMadness @ Feb 27 2017, 08:44 AM)
Hahaha anything also can be used to counter a T-55. It's a dainty, fragile little tank, even back in the 1950s. laugh.gif

BTW as if South Africa ever had a shortage of Olifant (locally-built Centurion) MBTs anyway.
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Shit tank beats having no tanks at all. that's true since ww2

btw during the borders war the saffers had problem fighting ww2-era T-34 with the panhard aml. If the panhard and ratel (similar to our sibmas) had problem fighting T-34, T-55 would rip these 2 several new assholes.

when T-55 finally showed up, the saffers were forced to withdraw both vehicles and replace with olifant



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MilitaryMadness
post Feb 27 2017, 07:24 PM

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QUOTE(ayanami_tard @ Feb 27 2017, 05:24 PM)
Shit tank beats having no tanks at all. that's true since ww2

btw during the borders war the saffers had problem fighting ww2-era T-34 with the panhard aml. If the panhard and ratel (similar to our sibmas) had problem fighting T-34, T-55 would rip these 2 several new assholes.

when T-55 finally showed up, the saffers were forced to withdraw both vehicles and replace with olifant
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Why in god's name do you decide to fight a tank (even WW2 ones) with a Panhard AML light-recon armored car? If 1-2 accidental encounters I would believe, but u make it sound that SADF were deliberately trying to fight tanks with only light armored cars and IFVs. Of coz la like that even ancient tank like T-34 can always win. Panhard and Ratel both have only low-pressure gun with short range and low muzzle velocity more suited as infantry support, so what were they thinking they can take on tanks, even ancient ones? laugh.gif
azriel
post Feb 27 2017, 07:49 PM

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QUOTE
Bandung blast suspect dies after police gunfight: Report

By Chandni Vatvani, Channel NewsAsia Posted 27 Feb 2017 12:10 Updated 27 Feb 2017 15:14

JAKARTA: A terror suspect died on Monday (Feb 27) after being shot in the stomach by West Java police in the city of Bandung, said national police chief Tito Karnavian in an interview with local news channel Metro TV.  

The suspect, who died on the way to Bhayangkara Hospital, had engaged in a gunfight with security personnel after allegedly detonating a pressure cooker bomb in Pandawa Park.  

West Java police spokesman Yusri Yunus, in a live Metro TV interview, earlier cited eyewitnesses as saying that they saw two people on a motorcycle at around 8.30am in the park looking suspicious. One of them reportedly carried a backpack.

The same suspect then put the bomb on the ground and after it exploded, the two were chased by members of the community. The eyewitnesses said the driver of the motorcycle rode off, while his passenger ran into a nearby government building.

The suspect allegedly set a room on the second floor of the building on fire and after firefighters attempted to put out the blaze, the suspect went down to the first floor where a confrontation with police occurred.

The alleged bomber was injured in the ensuing gunfight and Yusri said the police then seized a backpack, the remains of a second bomb, a knife and a firearm from him.  

Local police chief Anton Charliyan said nobody else had been hurt and everyone had evacuated from the building. 

"We tried to negotiate but instead the perpetrator tried to burn (the place)," he told Metro TV.

Anton had said in an earlier report by online news portal Detik.com that the suspect had demanded the release of counter-terrorism unit Densus 88 detainees . No specifics were given. 

The man was not identified, but according to Yunus, he was in his 30s or 40s.


http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asiapa...ng/3552612.html

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This post has been edited by azriel: Feb 27 2017, 08:11 PM
ayanami_tard
post Feb 27 2017, 08:16 PM

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QUOTE(MilitaryMadness @ Feb 27 2017, 08:24 PM)
Why in god's name do you decide to fight a tank (even WW2 ones) with a Panhard AML light-recon armored car? If 1-2 accidental encounters I would believe, but u make it sound that SADF were deliberately trying to fight tanks with only light armored cars and IFVs. Of coz la like that even ancient tank like T-34 can always win. Panhard and Ratel both have only low-pressure gun with short range and low muzzle velocity more suited as infantry support, so what were they thinking they can take on tanks, even ancient ones? laugh.gif
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exactly. hence the point; " (not) anything also can be used to counter a T-55."

Also, thing is, yes ratel and panhard do saw more anti armor action than olifant itself. it was only when the angolan and cuban start fielding T-55 (and even T-62) that they start fielding olifant.

reason, simple: mobility. them angolan (and its african allies) were pretty ill trained that panhard and ratel ran circles around them
xtemujin
post Feb 27 2017, 08:39 PM

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TESTING NEW TYPES OF WEAPONS BY THE RUSSIAN ARMED FORCES IN SYRIA
21.02.2017

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http://valdaiclub.com/multimedia/infograph...apons-in-Syria/
Fat & Fluffy
post Feb 27 2017, 11:05 PM

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DDG_Ross
post Feb 28 2017, 12:17 AM

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looks like tomorrow (or today?) the 2nd lcs keel will be laid down

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Fat & Fluffy
post Feb 28 2017, 11:19 AM

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Trump seeks 'historic' US military spending boost, domestic cuts

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WASHINGTON: President Donald Trump is seeking what he called a "historic" increase in defence spending, but ran into immediate opposition from Republicans in Congress who must approve his plan and said it was not enough to meet the military's needs.

The proposed rise in the Pentagon budget to US$603 billion (485 billion pounds) comes as the United States has wound down major wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and remains the world's strongest military power.

The plan came under fire from Democratic lawmakers, who said cuts being proposed to pay for the additional military spending would cripple important domestic programs such as environmental protection and education.

A White House budget official, who outlined the plan on a conference call with reporters, said the administration would propose "increasing defence by US$54 billion or 10 percent." That represents the magnitude of the increase over budget caps Congress put in place in 2011.

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But Mick Mulvaney, the White House budget director, said the plan would bring the Pentagon's budget to US$603 billion in total, just 3 percent more than the US$584 billion the agency spent in the most recent fiscal year, which ended on Sept. 30, 2016.

The rise would be slightly higher than the country's current 2.5 percent rate of inflation.

"President Trump intends to submit a defense budget that is a mere 3 percent above President (Barack) Obama’s defense budget, which has left our military underfunded, undersized, and unready to confront threats to our national security," John McCain, the Republican chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, said in a statement.

The defence boost would be balanced by slashing the same amount from non-defence spending, including a large reduction in foreign aid, the White House budget official said.

Trump does not have the final say on federal spending. His plan for the military is part of a budget proposal to Congress, which, although it is controlled by his fellow Republicans, will not necessarily follow his plans. Budget negotiations with lawmakers can take months.

McCain told reporters he would not vote for a budget with the slight military increase and thought it would face opposition in the Senate.

Trump told state governors at the White House his budget plan included a "historic increase in defence spending to rebuild the depleted military of the United States of America."

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He said his proposal was a "landmark event" and would send a message of "American strength, security and resolve" to other countries.

BIG CUTS TO STATE DEPARTMENT

Officials familiar with Trump's budget blueprint said the plan would call for cuts to agencies including the State Department and the Environmental Protection Agency.

One official familiar with discussions over State's budget said the agency could see spending cut by as much as 30 percent, which would force a major department restructuring and elimination of programs.

The United States spends about US$50 billion annually on the State Department and foreign assistance.

More than 120 retired U.S. generals and admirals urged Congress on Monday to fully fund U.S. diplomacy and foreign aid, saying such programs "are critical to keeping America safe."

Trump has vowed to spare middle-class social programs such as Social Security and Medicare from any cuts.

Nancy Pelosi, the top Democrat in the House of Representatives, said Trump’s plan to slash funding for federal agencies to free up money for the Pentagon showed he was not putting American working families first.

"A US$54 billion cut will do far-reaching and long-lasting damage to our ability to meet the needs of the American people and win the jobs of the future," Pelosi said. "The president is surrendering America’s leadership in innovation, education, science and clean energy."

SHORING UP 'CHOKE POINTS'

An official familiar with the proposal said Trump's request for the Pentagon included more money for shipbuilding, military aircraft and establishing "a more robust presence in key international waterways and choke points" such as the Strait of Hormuz and South China Sea.

That could put Washington at odds with Iran and China. The United States already has the world's most powerful fighting force and it spends far more than any other country on defence.

About one-sixth of the federal budget goes to military spending.

Trump has said previously he would expand the Army to 540,000 active-duty troops from its current 480,000, increase the Marine Corps to 36 battalions from 23 – or as many as 10,000 more Marines – boost the Navy to 350 ships and submarines from 276, and raise the number of Air Force tactical aircraft to 1,200 from 1,100.

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He has not said where he would place the extra hardware and forces or made clear what they would be used for. The United States has been shutting some of its military bases in recent years.

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Trump has also said he would bolster the development of missile defences and cyber capabilities. Last week, he told Reuters the United States had "fallen behind on nuclear weapon capacity." He pledged to ensure that "we're going to be at the top of the pack."

(Additional reporting by Tim Ahmann, Doina Chiacu, Andy Sullivan, Idrees Ali, David Alexander, and Patricia Zengerle; Writing by Alistair Bell and Lisa Lambert; Editing by Nick Tattersall and Peter Cooney)

- Reuters

This post has been edited by Fat & Fluffy: Feb 28 2017, 11:22 AM
Fat & Fluffy
post Feb 28 2017, 11:30 AM

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China says it has received its largest foreign drone order - Xinhua

SHANGHAI: An undisclosed buyer has placed the largest overseas order for China's home-developed military drones, the Xinhua news agency has reported, in a boost for the Chinese arms industry's efforts to increase export volumes.

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The order for the Wing Loong II was placed before the next-generation unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) successfully completed its maiden flight, Xinhua said late on Monday, citing the system's developer Chengdu Aircraft Design and Research Institute.

It did not identify the buyer or the size of the order.

The Wing Loong II, which has wingspan of more than 20 metres (65 feet), is a medium-altitude, long-endurance UAV that has both reconnaissance and strike capabilities.

It conducted a 31-minute flight for the first time on Monday after taking off from a runway in western China.

"Its flight marks China's new generation reconnaissance and strike UAV. Following the United States, China becomes another country capable of developing such new-generation, large reconnaissance and strike UAV," said Li Yidong, chief designer of the series, whose programme is overseen by the state-owned Aviation Industry Corp of China.

China has been stepping up research into military drones in the hope that it can steal market share from the United States and Israel with its cheaper technology and willingness to sell to countries that Western states are reluctant to deal with.

The Wing Loong II's predecessor sells for just US$1 million according to Chinese media reports. The U.S.-made MQ-9 Reaper, to which it has sometimes been compared, is priced at around US$30 million.

China has previously had limited success exporting manned military aircraft but is hoping to do better with UAVs, given that they are cheaper and easier to manufacture. Foreign buyers for its drones include Nigeria, Pakistan and Egypt.

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China's military modernisation has rattled nerves around the region with increasingly assertive moves to bolster its sovereignty claims in the South China Sea and over Taiwan, which it regards as a breakaway province.

It showed off its Chengdu J-20 stealth fighter in public for the first time in November and months earlier put into service a new, domestically developed large transport aircraft.

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(Reporting by Brenda Goh; Editing by Paul Tait)

- Reuters

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