- Yeah, the cloak bit was annoying. Than again, it was a surprise attack so maybe even it was caught unawares. Who's to say that it doesn't have a LOS and reaction time?

- Mordo was the ancient one's oldest pupil at that point, so of course she's going to say he'll be needed by Strange. Whether or not that is true is another matter.

- Strange wasn't 'barely a master' at that point. Both and Ancient One and Mordo have already commented that he was the most gifted they have seen and has been learning faster than everyone else. He just seems to lack confidence and seems to still think his broken hands are holding him back.

- He didn't nuke the villain. He bored the main bad guy with time loops to the point where he just gave up and called it quits. That's called thinking outside the box. Quite a creative way of winning.

- This isn't a martial arts action movie. Dr Strange has never punched anyone in the comics nor resorted to the same fighting style that Kaecilious was using in the movie. If there was too much fight scenes, comic fans would have cried foul. That's not how he resolved problems.

I think this was better than Civil War, which to be frank...was quite a dumb movie with great action scenes. Civil War was fun to watch, but very very stupid with even more plot holes than Dr Strange.

Edit: Err, hang on. He does fight in the comics. But only when he can't use his powers.

This post has been edited by arubin: Oct 30 2016, 05:16 PM

Throwing people off their feet is quite possibly the best way to distract a sorcerer from casting spells. So far, it seems like they need to at least have steady footing. Plus the ancient one used the flips to squash quite a few of Kaecilious macai.

Exactly how were you expecting them to fight? Punch each other with those conjured stuff? I don't want another Ip Man. Or maybe zap each other like Harry Potter? That's also kinda boring too.

Civil War was overall quite stupid. Honest Trailers got it right over just how ridiculous Zemo's plot was to get the Avengers to fight each other. Its quite possibly the only plot that is even more complicated and dumber than Lex's idea to get Batman and Superman to fight each other.

Too much of that weapon and shield thing would have turned it into a martial art flick, which is exactly what they're trying to avoid.

Its a plan that was ridiculously complicated and relied on far too many circumstantial coincidences, all of which requires that the people involved look at the situation and than make the worst possible assumption. There's so many ways for the plan to go wrong yet somehow it all worked out for Zemo until the very end.

Yeah...no...I'm not buying that. The plan was even more retarded than Luthor's stupid plan, and that was really really stupid...

Well, Strange's hands are still broken-ish, aren't they? Unlike the comics where he was actually fully trained to fight physicially too even if he didn't often use it, the movie Strange didn't seem to have full martial training.

Not everything is explained in Civil War. At least not satisfactorily if you were even thinking about the plot.

I'll let this clip do the talking...



Yes, there is a counter video from CinemaWins. Not saying its a bad movie, but by gods...the plot is shitty. Its just the action that is good.

Strange had no confidence in himself.

Mordo was never stated to be super powerful. Just someone that Strange should rely on.

As for Civil War, there was no need to go through that complicated bullshit.

That tape Zemo had of Bucky killing Stark's parents? Just send it to Tony straight off. But nooo...had to do it the hard way. And even after Tony knows that Bucky had no choice in the matter, they still have to fight each other. Yeah, bloody great idea to stir up a fight.

And the whole idea for the registration act is dumb in the first place. Its not like oversight is going to change anything aside from now making the UN officially responsible for the Avenger's fuckups...as compared to them being taking reponsibility for their own fuckups. Yeah, I can see how that improves things for the better.

Nope. I don't buy. How do they even know for sure Bucky planted the bomb? Because he was seen fleeing the scene? That doesn't make sense to me.

If the technology exists that can to mold a disguise that can fool facial recognition software, than you can see how that throws ALL crime suspects into doubt from visual evidence alone - especially for high profile cases. But nobody thinks it can be anyone else but Bucky for some reason. Its not like Zemo's disguise was a tech exclusive to him.

And there's no need to escalate the situation. If Tony was going to hunt down Bucky over the video, than he would have done it and drawn Cap into the fight straight away. There was no need to keep switching faces with that weird ass convuluted plot to frame Bucky for something when the main evidence is already all there.

Note that it all boiled down in the end to "he killed my mum".

Zemo's not happy that the Avengers supposedly killed his family even though its obviously Ultron who did it (although it can be said that Stark created Ultron), so he kills a whole bunch of other innocent uninvolved civilians just so he can execute his revenge and get the Avengers to fight each other? Yeah...no...sorry...very stupid idea simply because there's so many ways it could have failed.

And no...the Superhero Registration Act wasn't a good idea in the comics as it was. There's a reason why the Civil War plotline isn't highly regarded in the Marvel Comicverse. Mixing that up with Baron Zemo's convulated revenge doesn't improve the situation. Its just ends up being dumber plot-wise.

Its not a series of Batman gambits. Zemo's plan relied on so many things happening that are outside his control yet it all somehow worked out in his favor. For example, he had to hope that Cap and Tony will disagree on the accords, or he would have just bombed the building for no good reason at all.

And than he has to hope that Tony is the one that gets to Bucky, because hey...its not like the special forces of other countries won't be chasing the bomb suspect down at all. If someone else got to Bucky before Tony, than the plan to make them fight each other goes right out the window instead of escalating it. That guy with the machine gun in the heli could have mown down Bucky except Black Panther got in the way with his Vanadium Suit.

Batman Gambit indeed.

None of Strange's fights "make sense" even in the comic.

Did you read Infinity Gauntlet? I want to see how the fight translates to the big screen later in Infinity War. Chances are you folks will start complaining about it all being merely "special effects" because it most certainly ain't punching each other or fighting using conjured weapons. That's not how you fight when you have infinite power.

Without giving away spoilers, Thanos basically defeats all the heroes (and even the gods) simply by warping reality. You and amon_meiz will love it.

Going to reply using your format:

- He was lucking his way through the fight with the help of the cloak. That binding device was suggested to him by the cloak

- You seem to have to have it fixed in your head that Mordo has to be powerful or dependable. He's just the AO's best apprentice after Strange. She's just asking that they work together. But no, by your interpretation he has to be more.

- You do realize they changed things for this movie right? This isn't the same Baron Mordo as the comics.

- Its as I pointed out. Zemo's scheme had so many possible points of failure. For example, bombing the building drew in Black Panther. If Panther did end up killing Bucky before Stark got to him, than how? Whoops, no reason for Iron Man and Cap to fight anymore. Its just all so contrived.

- Sending the tapes straight to Tony but making sure Cap is also aware of them means that only Tony will go after Bucky with Cap trying to stop him, while the other Avengers will have to pick who to side with. That crazy elaborate plan dragged in all sorts of factors that Zemo had no control over.

- The registration act was never about controlling superheroes. How the heck do non-powered humans expect they can control powered humans? By relying on other powered humans to help them enforce these laws? Yeah...makes a whole lot of sense.

- Which is kinda the point, isn't it? It works only cos its the movie verse. Because its otherwise a crazy elaborate plan that will normally stand no chance of working. But it does...cos its a movie.

That's what makes it stupid.

And here's the thing about the Superhero Registration Act which was the original cause of the Civil War in the comics. Its dumb as bricks. Heroes protect their identities not only because they want a normal life outside the 'hero stuff' but also to protect their friends and family in case other people want revenge. Forcing heroes to reveal their identities is mostly stupid.

- You realize that the reason the world needs superheroes is because there are supervillains right?

- Coming up with an idea that pits your heroes against each other when there are still super bad guys around is dumb as bricks.

- Heroes opposed to the act don't have to fight each other like the comics suggested. Its all contrived.

- You don't agree to the Act? Solution is simple. Fucking retire for a bit. Let the ungrateful world look after itself for a while.

- So 50% of the world's superheros decide to call it quits. 100% of the supervillains are still at large. The remaining heroes are going to be super-stressed and overworked.

- I give it about a month before the world thinks the act is a stupid idea and begs for the heroes to come back.

But hey...the comics are about the the heros fighting each other instead of the villains taking advantage of the situation to really fuck shit up, which is what I would have done if I were a bad guy.

And not the movie throws Zemo's crazy plot into it as well...

- That's because Dr Strange's move is 'magic'. Fighting with magic does not have to follow the sames rules as a punch-up.

- Note that there is little in the way of blasting each other with energy, and Strange wasn't interested in fighting as much as running. Flipping buildings is a way of throwing people off balance.

- Note how it stopped Strange from getting away by summoning a portal, and even the Ancient One used it repeatedly to stop Kaecilious until his macai distracted her enough for him to pull it off.

- The same logic applies to the movies. You want to make a hero register? They just need to hang up their boots and retire instead. No need to fight their former colleagues. Like I said...the world will realize just want a stupid mistake they made very very quickly.

- Who said heroes have to 'want to serve'? By going against their former friends and being fugitives from the law? Really? Again, that's a contrived reason to make the heroes fight each other.

- When you really get down to it, there is very little to differentiate Batman Vs Superman to Civil War. Both essentially have the same plot with the same convulated plan by some crazy guy to make heroes fight each other. Only difference? One movie was lighter in tone while the other is darker. Yet one movie 'sucks' while the other is 'awesome'. Err...nope. That doesn't quite fly. BOTH are stupid. One had better action scenes while the only thing good about B vs S is that Ben Affleck made a better Batman than people expected.

- I don't recall Strange fighting to win in the London sanctum. He was just trying to stay alive. Note that he wasn't even there by choice. He got blown in there.

- And as Mordo pointed out, going to the mirror dimension was a mistake as Kaecilious (K for short) was more powerful there due to his connection with dark powers. That's why Strange had even more reason to run instead of fighting. Also note that K did not have that warp ring thing while Strange does. Running and getting out means K and his macai will be trapped there. K did all the folding to stop Strange from running.

- Until Strange accepted that it was his responsbility to do something about it, he had only been an accidental hero until the point where the Ancient One died.

- And as I've also said many many times. So many things could have gone wrong that would screw up Zemo's plans. Saying he might have 'contingencies' does not excuse that he made up an over elaborate plan that was dependent on factors outside of his control or influence.

- No, you cannot say that its acceptable to automatically assume that its Bucky when its possible to craft a face mask that can fool facial recognition. Like I said, that pretty much disqualifies visual recognition as evidence. The default assumption in such a universe should be that visual identity can no longer be trusted anymore, but no one raises any doubt at all. Why? Movie logic.

- Not to mention Zemo somehow seems to have the same height and build as Bucky, and is able to fake having a metal arm? Really? You have software that can identify a face from a distance but not tell that there is something off with the body? Again, 'movie logic'. Things work like this because the plot requires it to.

- I can accept 'movie logic' in small doses. In that extremely large dose that is needed to make the Civil War plot believable? Nope. End of day, its a really dumb movie with great actions scenes.

Which is yet another bit of contrived movie logic, isn't it?

Chasing down a lead doesn't necessarily mean with violent force using a guy in a heli with a machine gun. That outright assumes guilt.

Tony tracked down Spiderman, didn't he? A guy with a lot of money and tech can track anyone down mighty fast.

Which is not needed, because "he killed my mum" is an illogical reaction. It just needed the video. If Tony was expected to go ballistic on watching the video, it would have happened without needing to frame Bucky for bombing the UN.

With what did he have the means? Special forces training from a small country? That would totally teach him how to build an ECM device single-handedly.

You would think that a van parked like that would have aroused suspicions before the meeting was even allowed to be held? No vehicle is allowed within a certain perimeter of a meeting of govt officials like the UN unless security knows exactly what it's in it. But Zemo was allowed to park one right there without raising any suspicion at all. Right...

And its like I said...framing Bucky based on visual evidence is seriously contrived. You have a tech to scan the face but not work out body height, build, and whether or not the metal arm is real? Convenient bit of failing on the software, no?

Whatever for? Just show the video since he's right there in front of Tony.

Which is...what plan exactly? Bucky dies, and there is no reason for Tony and Cap to fight anymore. There might be disagreements over the registration act (something Zemo has no control over) but there is little reason for them to confront each other violently anymore...unless he has some other contrived reason. So why even risk the possibility that Bucky might be killed by a 3rd party like Black Panther even?

Not quite in that manner. You don't get to be a costumed vigilante by leaping to conclusions.

Going in prepped for deadly force is outright assumption of guilt. Following up a lead means sending someone to ask some questions.

One YouTube video and he knows who Spidey is.

One video of Bucky fleeing and he can't figure out its a fake Bucky. Nice.

Reason doesn't take a back seat to the point where you will use a super-powered suit to go kill someone. You might have done stupid things, but are they stupid on the level of trying to bash out someone's brains? Not to mention how does he go from talking about how powered individuals need to be reigned in and kept under control only to go ballistic himself.

I think you're also assuming that the film was kept in the facility instead of being part of the encrypted Hydra archives that were released to the public in Winter Soldier. Cap seems to know about the video and he does not know about the facility, so it must mean the video is not just stored at the facility.

So you're saying that Zemo lacks the ability to find Bucky by himself so he must engineer a bombing (which really shouldn't have worked) so that someone else flushes out Bucky for him without accidentally killing him (and thus risk losing access to the facility along with the main reason for Cap and Tony to fight), and than he has to take on a disguise to infiltrate a SHIELD facility where he expects to be able to interogate Bucky by himself with no other guards present (an expected and normal security precaution, which is strangely missing and not noticed by observers) just so he can use the control procedure without interference? His plan is riding on a lot of contrived situations that are not always in his control, isn't it?

I think it would have been easier for him to just find Bucky by himself...

One that can knock out your cell phone over a short distance? Sure.

One that can knock out a power grid? Yeah...no. Based on current tech, you need a small controlled nuclear blast. Marvel Universe? Stark could do it. Mr Fantastic probably could (but not in the Cineverse, cos different studio lol). Spidey? Smart guy that he is, this is beyond his ability and access to tech. The actual Helmut Zemo of the comics should also be able to obtain such a device. Mr ex-special forces soldier of some small fictional country Zemo? No chance.

No. That's now how security detail works at such events. Not anymore since the threat of terrorist bombings. Press vans and 3rd party vehicles are expected to arrive for inspection and background checks way before any UN conference even starts before they will be allowed into the perimeter. Once the deadline for that passes, NOTHING is allowed in anymore. You get there late, too fucking bad. You will simply not be allowed in.

So no...there is no such thing as a press van showing up unexpectedly or unnoticed. That just doesn't happen even in our world, and should be less likely to happen in their world. Its someone's job to notice. Heck, its the job of multiple people to notice, for precautions and check/balance.

To put it quite simply, Zemo was also relying on UN security being ridiculously super lax just for his bombing to work.

Not at Stark level tech, no. He can identify Spiderman from a video, he can't pick out a real or fake Bucky?

You really think Tony is that much of a bastard? Plus a strained group dynamic doesn't result in the group destroying each other which was what he objective was.

Oh, and let's just talk about how the fight at the airport, awesome as it was, is just so totally unnecessary when Tony could have just disabled the Quinjet from the start? He funded and built it. He lacks the ability to disable it from unauthorized access? Let's just assume for a moment he forgot this important safeguard...couldn't he like, just blast the thing from the start so that Cap and Bucky have nothing to fly? Not like he can't afford to build another. One of his suits alone costs more than a Quinjet. But oh, hey...let's fight it out and than only think of trying to knock out the jet at the last possible moment. Yeah...

As entertaining as this was, I think this can go on forever...

Thanos isn't merely powerful. He's also a crafty bugger. He and Dr Doom are among the few in the comicverse that are proficient in both tech and mystic arts.

Thanos doesn't have to defeat Strange to take the stone. He just need to distract for long enough for a macai to take it and Thanos is more than powerful enough to do that. Especially if he has the other stones to help too.

It would be interesting to see how the movie Infinity War pans out, but in the comcs...well, Thanos didn't exactly lose to the heros and gods assembled to face him but I'd rather not give away spoilers.

Infinity Gauntlet is worth reading. The follow up Infinity War and so forth...not so much...