Hi,

I run about 1-2 times weekly on weekdays, plus 1 long run on weekend; weekday run about 10k, and weekend about 15k to 18k mostly 15k. I practise 3-5 weeks up and 1 week down cycle to minimize injuries.

Last race is pjhm. No plan for next year yet.

Thinking about FM, but so far i see most say weekly volume need to be 30km to 50km. So when i saw you made it, i am amazed.

Most people hit high HR for long period in FM, not advisable to beat at 90% to 100% max HR for long hours.

Did you "bonk"? Any cramps in late stages?

I didn't stick protector glass mine. A thin glass should not be interfering with GPS signals

Glad to hear it solved the issue

i always bonk last 10km. thats why cannot get sub 6.

based on that 220-age formula I should be at 176max... the trouble with that is that it's very close to what my optimum running cadence is supposed to be - and I think the optical sensor on my watch (apple series 3) confuses the both and gives me some sort of cadence lock on my HR. At the recent Penang bridge HM, I had Peak HR readings of 180bpm for 6 mins and 176BPM (my theoretical max) for 20 mins which is BS if that's supposed to equate to an anaerobic effort. Pace zone was Tempo or M phase on my VDot.

I'm still a noob runner though, and I've only been running slightly more than a year so what do I know? All I know is that my HR zones don't make much sense currently I'm going to do a retest at the end of the year with a chest strap - do a 30 min all out effort and get the last 10 minute average for my lactate threshold HR and work out the HR Zones from there.

How can I train marathon to achieve sub 3.15 or even sub 3 hour target within 1 year? Since I ran 800m with 2:10 (current), 5k with 18min (PB 4 years ago), 18min45sec (current), 10k with 39min (PB 4 years ago),42min (current) ? My result has declined since 4 years ago due to lack of long distance training. I am determined to train hard to achieve that goal, I am hereby to ask whether it's a realistic target and the scientific method to achieve that. I am currently running slowly 6 times per week.

That 1 big of a puzzle that i myself try to figure out as well. The option is to get chest strap HRM for more accurate reading which I think not worth it as it cost a fortune just to know max hr. Looking forward to hear your retest result once you have done it

yeah..sure bonk depending how fast i start, if start fast then bonk earlier at 25k,
if start slow then bonk around 35k.

for the cramps, stop and stretch the calf muscle and do some squats to loosen the tight muscles.
and get the magic spray or 'snake' oil from the aid station and give the leg a good rub down.

Hi,

Need to practise the "glycogen" supercondensation approach.... train to run till G tank is empty... then within 30 mins, take 50-100 gm carbo, sugary intake... i normally take soya bean, it is about 50gm carbo for 500ml... then within 1 hour, eat a meal with 100gm carbo... tnrough out whole day... eat about 100 gm carbo... your body has about 2000 calorie of glycogen... eat enough to top up... if you practise well.. your G tank can increase till 50% more...

This will help you..

1 gm carbo is 4 calorie... so our body can store from 500 gm carbo to 900 carbo... depending on our size and muscles.

Hi,

We have a limited supply of glycogen, most have about 2000 calorie while those that train have about 3,000 calorie if they train right.

For me, i have difficulty running past 20km or 3 hours for a long run, not yet hit the wall yet... i know it is there waiting 😬. I just dun want to get injuries, 2018 had too many injuries.

If you run your fastest 10km run, chance are your G tank can be depleted even faster than normal... so best to go at your marathon pace...

But i am still amazed that despite bonking and cramps you managed to make it within the COT. RESPECT 🙋‍♂️.

Hi

I am also not very young... 😁

Why do you say your garmin 235 HR reading is not accurate?

Do you always have higher reading for max HR? Or your runs mostly hit in zone 4 or zone 5... even for 3k runs.

There are other HR formulae beside the 220-age, google and you get better explaination. But everyone is unique.

My personal experience: my max HR never go much higher than the 220 -age formula in my early years of running 1-2 years... already 3 years of running. But in my recent HM, garmin recorded that i hit 185 bpm, means that i am 35 years old.

If you have been running many years, i guess your max HR will always be higher than normal people. But if you practise MAF and lydiardian methodology, their max HR is normally much lower.

My average max heart rate the passed 11 months is 202. Mostly getting it from long hard effort hiking up steep hills. currently set my max HR in my Garmin as 182bpm getting zone 5 everytime I go out on easy run. Yet I stil skeptical if the reading are accurate, as we know optical HRM aren't as accurate and see most people HR not as high as what I gotten from mine. When you come to a phase of training where you want to do the quality workout, this max HR think are really critical if you dont want your hard effort go as good as a wasted time.

As I understand, our max HR not determine by how long we've been running or how fit we are but how young we are instead. I could be wrong..I think you mean our heart rate reading on easy effort will be lower if we have more fitness. As for MAF methodology 180-age, I really think this method really hard to put into practice unless you are someone whos want to run the safest possible way(wont take even a hint of injury risk). You wont progress much with this method. While I adore Lydiard method.

Edited: I just check again my average Max HR the pass 12 months has gone down a bit to 198 which is still didn't make sense. Btw, are you using optical HRM for your reading as well? or you got chest strap HRM?

This post has been edited by Vrese: Dec 4 2019, 04:05 PM

Hi,

I have 2 friends, one of them have similar heart rate with you. He has been running for over 6 years, and his heart rate always hit high 200 bpm even in the first 5 mins. The other has been running for over 6-8 years, and he never run in zone 4/zone 5. Both are in their 50s.

Both can run a full marathon. Guess who has the fastest speed and his avg HR.

Lately, the guy with the high HR, let's call him A, has started to try to run easy but ensuring his HR stay below MAF, he started 2-3 months ago, he started at 9-10 min/km, today he is at 8.30 min/km. A always blame garmin or whatever, he has been to a specialist who ruled out no cardiac issues.

It is about fat burning, capillaries and mitocondria, these are the brnefits of running in zone 3 or easy. Once your body has adapted, you will feel it... the journey takes 3-6 months for some but 6-12 months for others.

And yes my other friend, call him B. B runs 40 mins for 10km at HR below 120bpm, and his FM is 3 hours at avg HR 135bpm. Amazing right?

There are objectives and benefit for each type of training. MAF/Easy, tempo and speed work.

For your info, since i started to run easy, my vo2max dropped 7 points.

Reference:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/20900321960...41315196371483/

https://www.usafmarathon.com/endurance-engine/

Hi,

I use a garmin fenix 5X, and at one time wanted a chest strap. But today i just accepted it.

I used to jog at pace 10 min/km at a high HR, but that was 36 months ago and i was large. Today i can do a 8 min/km at easy zone 3 HR.

Takes time to build capillaries, mitocondria volume and mitocondria density.

Just like you, I can run easily 20-30 mins in zone 5. But recently I choose not to do it. When you teach your body to burn fat, it will continue to use fat but that only happen in lower zone, once you go into high zone 3 snd zone 4/5, you will be burning purely glycogen, and then lactate. There is a limited supply of glycogen. I have a friend who paid for a lab test, he showed me his results, I was convinced.

But agreed with you, difficult to get legs to start at slower pace, no point to slow down once HR cannot stay in zone 3. I still do run at zone 4 and zone 5 for the pure milking of endorphins... 😁

Best Regards

Updates:
completed both, 2nd FM takes additional ~20mins (with injuries)
not that bad as per discussed, thanks guys

Interesting what write there. I take some time to read it..

As someone who run a lot and has read the internet a lot I'm sure you know Jack Daniel (Not the alcohol drink). He has explain all this is details based on science and maths.

If you run 80% of your weekly volume on easy effort that still help you develop fat burning efficiency, capillaries and mitochondria as well. So there is no need for MAF method for that as all other training method also have this. Some of these people running at amazing time should be taken their talent into consideration as well and all other factor. For myself as I have no coming race, almost 100% of my running are on easy conversation pace.

Good training should increase VO2max not the opposite.


Thats what im thinking, since I run most of my run on easy conversation pace chest strap HRM will not have much use for me and it cost a boom on the wallet that about to change my mind now since this HR thing really creating puzzle on me.

Someone who has run enough mileage should be efficient enough to burn more fat then glycogen at zone 3 and 4 (maybe even lower zone 5 not sure). It actually take years to develop yourself into a good marathon time. I do run really easy whole 10k from time to time but it didn't change the fact that the quality workout that really give you the improvement you want. Btw, what is your resting HR..

Still wondering where should set my max HR in my garmin..

Hi,

Yes, i follow Jack Daniel, watch his youtube videos, and use his excel table to train.

Yes, you are right about the vo2max figure, but reality is reality... i follow few facebook running groups... it is simple, if you have a certain volume that you run, say X miles it gives you Z vo2max, but if you slow down significantly, over 2-3 weeks, you will lose fitness first, as your intensity now drops but milage remain the same,... with that, your "vo2max goes out the window first"... then over time, it will go up again... make sense?

If you run easy, it MUST be "heart rate" at a certain level...not the "feel"... because... some people, like you are "not affected" by lactic acid... so you run faster.... most people can feel the "barrier" as they move past aerobic point, and then LT point... But mitocondria and capillary development only happen at HR of zone 3.... not our "feel of easy".

For fat burning... on running... you need to go be tested... my friends have tested... you will be surprised... i know i was surprised... but the tri-athletes are RIGHT... you are asked to run on a treadmill with different speed which is increasing, and your HR and blood are tested... the results are cross-referenced against pace, HR, CHO, fats, lactic acid... at a certain point, fat burning stops as body turn to CHO, then to lactate...

There are ways to force the body to burn fat in a run... like keto diet... or fasted run... i was on keto for a while... really fatigue...

Oh yes... the running/blood/heart rate/CHO/fat test by friends, at his pace of 5 min/km at avg HR of 118, which is zone 2 for uncles 😜, fat burning still works, moment he hit avg HR 130 and above as he press into zone 3... all fats dissapeared, only CHO was burning... it correlate to his comment, he is a sub 3 marathoner and ultra 80km runner, he says past 50km, he can feel his body slow significantly and he never bonk in a marathon.

So our glycogen tank is limited, if you run too fast, it will burn much much much faster, you go try to run a 3K pace and try to hold... but if you stop, continue to try... you will find that you will not able run at that first speed. Our G tank is normally 2000 calorie, 400 liver glycogen and 1600 muscle glycogen, but only 60% of muscle glycogen are in legs you can use for running, so if you run for 15km early morning you will burn 900 calorie, by mid day, you will feel the effects of low G tank when your calorie exceed 2000 calorie.

So you may want to try to run at no more than 70% your max HR as easy... the other only method that say easy is easy but do not look at heart rate is "hanson marathon method"... kevin says " I do not train in heart rate, the day they give olympic gold medal on HR, i will train HR" 🤣🤣🤣....

I have seen some amazing avg HR for people that run sub 3 marathon, their HR are so low when they are running 4 min/km for hours... question: how did they train to run fast at such low avg HR? They never run at zone 4 or zone 5 HR. On the other hand, i have seen old people run 5-6 hours at HR 160 to 190 bpm for a marathon 😨😨😨. A cardiologist once remarked that if these people were to take a test for heart attack, the test result will be POSITIVE 😂 but ordinary people will just die 😏.

My other friend has converted to MAF easy run... no loss, if it does not work, he want to be 20 years old again 🤣🤣🤣.. i told him, give yourself 12 months at weekly volume of 40 miles, walk if needed... 3 months di, it has only started to drop 😥, he was almost giving up 😨

If you maintain yor mileage the fitness should not be lose. you are right mitocondria and capillary development mostly happen in zone 2, most coaches call it base building phase where you will use this aerobic engine that you've developt to develop higher lactate threshold and VO2max later on. Lactate threshold and VO2max need to be stressed in order to improve it which require you to run at it.

I admit me myself mess up the easy run sometime and dont exacly sure where my zone is including my max HR. I should learn more..well I never stop learn running and learning my body It part of the thrill of running. Like you said, once you experience running at all level of your fitness you kind of know by feel where your threshold is. Stay way below it on easy run..just relax and cruise it. You should be good..

These people who have very big aerobic engine now if you add interval in their training Im sure they will get even more faster. In marathon if you dont go near the wall you are not running to your potential, likewise in 5k or 10k if you didn't showered with lactate acid at the finish line you are not running to your potential.

Just picked up a forerunner 945 over the weekend. The amount of stats over the series 3 apple watch I was using makes for some interesting reading as I have been doubting the data on that watch for months now.

I was doing this JD red plan workout based on vdot 32 intensity yesterday - 10min E, 4xST, 2x(5minI+4min Jog+3min I+2min jog), 10min E. Optical HRM recorded a max of 191BPM - but this was in the middle of the 3rd interval and then it dropped back down 182BPM at the end of the interval (my pace was consistent) - for me this doesn't make sense. Moral of the story is - you have to look at the HR graph to see whether it passes the sanity check.

2019 was my year of aerobic base training, I was training for a half ironman from a very low fitness base so 90% of my running was done at a zone 2 conversational pace. This year, I would like to focus on my running which means more quality workouts but I'm still a believer in easy miles - since I'm in my mid 40s and I really need that recovery lol. That's why I need my training zones. Vdot works for me right now, because the difficulties feel just about right and I've run at those distances. HR just doesn't work right now because I'm not sure I can trust the data from my devices. If i get a chest strap then will update my HR zones. Right now I've set my HR zones for Garmin Connect based on %LTHR which i have guesstimated at about 169 which seems to make sense from an intensity point of view.

The other thing about using HR for training, it's effected by so many things Heat, sweat, hydration, stress... like this month, my min HR is up from 50 to something like 57 due to workplace stress and 1 month of detraining... Mat Salleh heart zones are not directly comparable unless you adjust for our heat and humidity.

Look like we have the same problem here.


I like the way you put it "passes the sanity check" That's what I do, check if it just a spike. No..it linear

Agree with you. Easy miles are compulsory. Looking forward to see your update, if my doubt are proven maybe I should get chest strap HRM as well. My forerunner 235 no %LTHR option though.

Agree with you hr are effected by many things. Respect for you to be able to handle and run with the stress from workplace at the same time. That's the exact issue with running, we know exactly how to get there, how to execute it but somehow couldn't it required a lot of discipline and motivation. While others problem I see when someone get the understanding through reading or listening from other people about intensity of Lactate Threshold training but somehow still didn't hit the correct intensity. This thing require a lot of trail and error until you truly understand your body and the correct intensity that you should put to it in order to get the outcome you wanted. I've seen people dashing 1k repeat for lactate threshold training, that just too intense

love to read the above discussion on science of running

apart from that, I would like to know, if anyone like me having bruises on legs after running? i did google, but, hope to hear anyone here are having same problem?