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 LYN Runners Version.11

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hondaracer
post Nov 26 2018, 08:40 AM

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QUOTE(LittleSmarty @ Nov 24 2018, 01:10 PM)
Thanks for the advices. What you meant is for weekdays I train in zone 3 & 4, and for weekend I train in zone 1?
In addition, do long distance runners have extra time to do gym/workout? I like to run but at the same time I do not want to have a very skinny body like those professional marathoner.

Why is it unsustainable? Do you mind elaborate more?
*
Hi,

Do you have s HR GPS watch? Need to monitor your HR, rest HR and vo2max. As your fitness improves, rest HR drop, some people rest HR drop 60, 50 and even 35-40 bpm.

Aerobic pace is HR zone 3. Zone 4 is higher than zone 3. There are 5 HR Zone. Go read up on HR zone if you are training 6 days week.Therefore, based on your level of fitness and years of training, you can have a more structured training.Generally aerobic zone are about 70% max HR, and easy pace is the "pace you can talk in full sentence" which for most people may be in higher zone 2 and lower zone 3. Not easy to run purely in zone 4 for long period, few can do it for long distance but doctors dun advise it.

Hanson marathon method:
(1) 1 long run in weekend
(2) speedwork workout tuesday
(3) rest day or easy or crosstrain on wednesday
(3) tempo workout thursday
(5) most days are easy run: 80% of runs are in easy pace, including the long run.
The above is the general structure of hanson, it may not be suitable to most people as it has 5-6 days of running, and the 3 SOS (ie Something-of-Substance) which are (a) speedwork, (b) tempo and© long run are typical "energy draining" n potential injury causing...

There are other known methods like hal higdon and macmillian and jack daniels. Important thing is not to follow blindly but listen to your body and dun force your runs or workout. We are not elite nor gifted, so we adapt a bit more: for example, less repeats on tuesday, hanson say 5 repeat; may be you start at 2 repeats of 400 meter.

I am not a coach, just that running is my hobby.

hondaracer
post Nov 26 2018, 09:00 AM

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QUOTE(Vrese @ Nov 24 2018, 11:40 AM)
This is unsustainable for long term build up. Careful with injury
Hi,

Speedwork need to adjust to fitness level and capability, and need to listen to body. Best to adjust speedwork after listen to body. Always follow 20% & 80% rule of running.

Thanks for concern.
ariffdude
post Nov 27 2018, 09:43 AM

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Damn marathons are another level, I clearly didn't trained enough. Got picked up by a sweeper bus at KM37. Never expected to run in thunderstorms before, habis rosak my mp3 player.
afiqishak
post Nov 27 2018, 10:35 AM

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QUOTE(ariffdude @ Nov 27 2018, 09:43 AM)
Damn marathons are another level, I clearly didn't trained enough. Got picked up by a sweeper bus at KM37. Never expected to run in thunderstorms before, habis rosak my mp3 player.
*
come back stronger bro! flex.gif

safety is more important. mp3 boleh beli baru. laugh.gif
Vrese
post Nov 27 2018, 11:42 AM

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QUOTE(hondaracer @ Nov 26 2018, 09:00 AM)
Hi,

Speedwork need to adjust to fitness level and capability, and need to listen to body. Best to adjust speedwork after listen to body. Always follow 20% & 80% rule of running.

Thanks for concern.
*
I thought you are referring to 90-100% heart rate zone. My bad..sometime i get confuse because i didn't really consider resting heart rate zone as a zone for work out. Mind you some new runner can be jogging at zone 4 at 8m/km, and it's not a speedwork (like me) nod.gif
hondaracer
post Nov 27 2018, 02:38 PM

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QUOTE(Vrese @ Nov 27 2018, 11:42 AM)
I thought you are referring to 90-100% heart rate zone. My bad..sometime i get confuse because i didn't really consider resting heart rate zone as a zone for work out. Mind you some new runner can be jogging at zone 4 at 8m/km, and it's not a speedwork (like me)  nod.gif
*
Hi

Hahaha... yes you are right, some are at 8 min/km but HR like hit max HR... i was one of them 😞.. Running is good, it can bring your rest HR down.

I have been running almost 2 years.. at 8 min/km pace, my HR today is at lower zone 3. But if you monitor carefully, it has some connection to muscle glycogen, at start of run my HR is in zone 2 at pace 8 min/km.. but after 15 km, if i dun refuel, even at pace 8 min/km, HR is at LT level, 88% max HR. My body is not burning fat fast enough efficiently 🙄.

I have hit 110% max HR and have stayed in zone 4-5 HR for over 40 mins. Some runners are running HM and FM at zone 4 & zone 5 for hours, scary action but i believed that they trained wrongly by focussing on anaerobic system.


hondaracer
post Nov 27 2018, 02:41 PM

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QUOTE(Vrese @ Nov 27 2018, 11:42 AM)
I thought you are referring to 90-100% heart rate zone. My bad..sometime i get confuse because i didn't really consider resting heart rate zone as a zone for work out. Mind you some new runner can be jogging at zone 4 at 8m/km, and it's not a speedwork (like me)  nod.gif
*
Hi,

Have you tried to increase your muscle gylcogen store? It can be enlarged as well as increasing mitocondria and building more capilaries in leg.

I am not a coach, and not selling "snake oil", nor nu-skin... 😂..

Best Regards
hondaracer
post Nov 27 2018, 02:51 PM

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QUOTE(LittleSmarty @ Nov 14 2018, 09:56 PM)
My friends asked me to join too..Only joined hm before..havent even try fm yet then I join this ultra..since last week I try to jog everyday..feel like FEB is abit too rush for me lol..hopefully wont GG half way during the run...
*
Hi

I forgot... you joined ultra "jumping" over FM... saw your schedule... ok, i recommended some adjustment... but forgot to tell you about "back-to-back" long run...B2B long run

Most ultra runners train similar to FM on weekday schedule.... but have two "B2B long run". Takes a while to do the B2B long run.. say start with "15k sat plus 10k sun"... slowly work up to 70% of actual distance. Got an ultra friend doing 70km runs, he do a "30k sat plus 20k sun"..

Personally, i have been training for months but still cannot handle HM but habour ultra dreams 🤣... weak body, only recently i can do 15k long run with any DOMS on next day. So train wisely and tune body carefully.

All the best
Vrese
post Nov 27 2018, 03:19 PM

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QUOTE(hondaracer @ Nov 27 2018, 02:41 PM)
Hi,

Have you tried to increase your muscle gylcogen store? It can be enlarged as well as increasing mitocondria and building more capilaries in leg.

I am not a coach, and not selling "snake oil", nor nu-skin... 😂..

Best Regards
*
I know increasing mitochondria, but never heard of increasing your muscle glycogen store. I only replenish glycogen store, mind to share?
LittleSmarty
post Nov 27 2018, 03:21 PM

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QUOTE(hondaracer @ Nov 27 2018, 02:51 PM)
Hi

I forgot... you joined ultra "jumping" over FM... saw your schedule... ok, i recommended some adjustment... but forgot to tell you about "back-to-back" long run...B2B long run

Most ultra runners train similar to FM on weekday schedule.... but have two "B2B long run". Takes a while to do the B2B long run.. say start with "15k sat plus 10k sun"... slowly work up to 70% of actual distance. Got an ultra friend doing 70km runs, he do a "30k sat plus 20k sun"..

Personally, i have been training for months but still cannot handle HM but habour ultra dreams 🤣... weak body, only recently i can do 15k long run with any DOMS on next day. So train wisely and tune body carefully.

All the best
*
Thank you so much for all the advices. I think muscle endurance is very crucial for my upcoming Ultra..I ran HM last year, I can keep my pace steadily till 15km but then my leg feel like giving up altho I can still speak and breathe smoothly.
Vrese
post Nov 27 2018, 03:27 PM

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QUOTE(hondaracer @ Nov 27 2018, 02:38 PM)
Hi

Hahaha... yes you are right, some are at 8 min/km but HR like hit max HR... i was one of them 😞.. Running is good, it can bring your rest HR down.

I have been running almost 2 years.. at 8 min/km pace, my HR today is at lower zone 3. But if you monitor carefully, it has some connection to muscle glycogen, at start of run my HR is in zone 2 at pace 8 min/km.. but after 15 km, if i dun refuel, even at pace 8 min/km, HR is at LT level, 88% max HR. My body is not burning fat fast enough efficiently 🙄.

I have hit 110% max HR and have stayed in zone 4-5 HR for over 40 mins. Some runners are running HM and FM at zone 4 & zone 5 for hours, scary action but i believed that they trained wrongly by focussing on anaerobic system.
*
I think you have not hit your max heart rate yet. Go run 1km as fast as you can possibly can or long hill sprint. The feeling should be 'almost passed out' by the time you finish it. With luck, you will register new highest heart rate reading. Then your zone could be more accurate. Not possible to hold zone 5 even for 15 minutes (for me)
Kidicarus
post Nov 27 2018, 03:42 PM

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QUOTE(hondaracer @ Nov 27 2018, 02:51 PM)
Hi

I forgot... you joined ultra "jumping" over FM... saw your schedule... ok, i recommended some adjustment... but forgot to tell you about "back-to-back" long run...B2B long run

Most ultra runners train similar to FM on weekday schedule.... but have two "B2B long run". Takes a while to do the B2B long run.. say start with "15k sat plus 10k sun"... slowly work up to 70% of actual distance. Got an ultra friend doing 70km runs, he do a "30k sat plus 20k sun"..

Personally, i have been training for months but still cannot handle HM but habour ultra dreams 🤣... weak body, only recently i can do 15k long run with any DOMS on next day. So train wisely and tune body carefully.

All the best
*
Personally, I think it's a waste of time to do speed work when you don't have the aerobic base for it. Basically, littlesmarty is just trying to complete an ultra distance - from half marathon base fitness... focus should just be on increasing the mileage before bothering with the speed work. 200m, 400m and 1k intervals are to help improve your race pace but should only be done once you have the aerobic base for it - otherwise it's just junk miles imo. Also, if you're running an ultra and your goal is to finish, that speedwork is not going to help you finish at all.

I have no doubt that Hansons marathon method is a good book - amazon reviewers love it. But if you're still trying to handle a HM, maybe you need to focus a bit on the base training before killing yourself on the speedwork.

Also HR Zones are a bit different depending on who's talking about it, rather than using numbers, maybe it's better to use terms like recovery, aerobic, tempo, threshold and anaerobic so that everyone understands what you're talking about.


hondaracer
post Nov 28 2018, 08:12 AM

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QUOTE(Kidicarus @ Nov 27 2018, 03:42 PM)
Personally, I think it's a waste of time to do speed work when you don't have the aerobic base for it.  Basically, littlesmarty is just trying to complete an ultra distance - from half marathon base fitness... focus should just be on increasing the mileage before bothering with the speed work.  200m, 400m and 1k intervals are to help improve your race pace but should only be done once you have the aerobic base for it - otherwise it's just junk miles imo.  Also, if you're running an ultra and your goal is to finish, that speedwork is not going to help you finish at all.

I have no doubt that Hansons marathon method is a good book - amazon reviewers love it.  But if you're still trying to handle a HM, maybe you need to focus a bit on the base training before killing yourself on the speedwork. 

Also HR Zones are a bit different depending on who's talking about it, rather than using numbers, maybe it's better to use terms like recovery, aerobic, tempo, threshold and anaerobic so that everyone understands what you're talking about.
*
Hi,

I have been running slightly over 24 months, in the first 12 monthly, I was running almost daily but progress was slow.

I have run a few 15k regularly recently, and a few 18k to 20k. But i am not ready to race a HM yet. I want to run longer distance over 20k in purely zone 3.

Question is always how do you run faster and keep the pace at HR zone 3 for longer distance? I have read few plans: MAF, hanson, hal higdon and macmillan, including FIRST. We may need to adapt some; do what the body can do safely without injuries; if hanson say 10 repeat 400 meter, do 3 repeat 400 meter if that is all one's body can do. Adaptation still occur after workout, perhaps less but important to avoid injuries.

As for me, Started with some speedwork 12 months ago, then added a bit tempo, my progress over 12 months is significant compared to earlier: having said that, not all will have the same adaptations. Just sharing my experience.

I am not a "hanson purist", the 80% 20% rule still apply. Lydiard method is good but if you are still already running 7 days a week and increasing mileage slowly, what would you do if the race is around the corner?

As for me, i have reverted back to majority "base run" last 3 months to try to build distance over 20k. Just sharing with littlesmarty, hopefully it may help him over the long run.

Cheers



Kidicarus
post Nov 28 2018, 10:35 AM

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QUOTE(hondaracer @ Nov 28 2018, 08:12 AM)
Hi,

I have been running slightly over 24 months, in the first 12 monthly, I was running almost daily but progress was slow.

I have run a few 15k regularly recently,  and a few 18k to 20k. But i am not ready to race a HM yet. I want to run longer distance over 20k in purely zone 3.

Question is always how do you run faster and keep the pace at HR zone 3 for longer distance? I have read few plans: MAF, hanson, hal higdon and macmillan, including FIRST.  We may need to adapt some; do what the body can do safely without injuries; if hanson say 10 repeat 400 meter, do 3 repeat 400 meter if that is all one's body can do. Adaptation still occur after workout, perhaps less but important to avoid injuries.

As for me, Started with some speedwork 12 months ago, then added a bit tempo, my progress over 12 months is significant compared to earlier: having said that, not all will have the same adaptations. Just sharing my experience.

I am not a "hanson purist", the 80% 20% rule still apply. Lydiard method is good but if you are still already running 7 days a week and increasing mileage slowly, what would you do if the race is around the corner?

As for me, i have reverted back to majority "base run" last 3 months to try to build distance over 20k. Just sharing with littlesmarty, hopefully it may help him over the long run.

Cheers
*
First of all, I have to say that I am a noob. I'm in my 40s and I've just started training for triathlons (started c25k in march 2018, first 10k in July, sprint tri in Oct) and all I know is that by this time next year I will be able to swim 1.9k, cycle 90km and run 21k without killing myself. For this I'm working on my annual training plan, it's a WIP but I'm planning to join lots of different B and C events to check my progress. I know I'm not going to suddenly find myself doing something I didn't know was coming a mile away.

If the race is round the corner, you're either in the build phase with more quality workouts or you're in taper when you're winding down to hit peak form before your race. If you've not done the base work all the speed work in the world is not going to help you because you are not prepared. The worst thing you can do before an event is run 7 days a week. You will walk and in the worst case injure yourself.

I think if you're already doing 15k long runs regularly, I think you're ready to train for a HM. How you train depends on that your goal is: Finish, finish without walking, finish under 2hrs, finish at Kipchoge's marathon pace? Running in zone 3 do you mean your own personal pace zone or HR zone? Your terminology is really confusing. Personally I feel that if a plan tells you to do 10x400 and you can only do 3x400 - then you're following the wrong plan for you.


hondaracer
post Nov 28 2018, 11:36 AM

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QUOTE(Vrese @ Nov 27 2018, 03:19 PM)
I know increasing mitochondria, but never heard of increasing your muscle glycogen store. I only replenish glycogen store, mind to share?
*
Hi

Sorry bro, i was re-digging my old notes, hanson used to have links that discuss how to do "muscle glycogen replenishment" and how to induce growth of glycogen size... can grow till certain size. But i cannot find it, broken links... to share with you... my bad..

Looks like luke humphrey (co-author of Hanson book) is "branching"out.. i see "humprey running logo" in some of the previous hanson web site.
hondaracer
post Nov 28 2018, 12:03 PM

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QUOTE(Kidicarus @ Nov 28 2018, 10:35 AM)
First of all, I have to say that I am a noob.  I'm in my 40s and I've just started training for triathlons (started c25k in march 2018, first 10k in July, sprint tri in Oct) and all I know is that by this time next year I will be able to swim 1.9k, cycle 90km and run 21k without killing myself.  For this I'm working on my annual training plan, it's a WIP but I'm planning to join lots of different B and C events to check my progress.  I know I'm not going to suddenly find myself doing something I didn't know was coming a mile away.

If the race is round the corner, you're either in the build phase with more quality workouts or you're in taper when you're winding down to hit peak form before your race.  If you've not done the base work all the speed work in the world is not going to help you because you are not prepared.  The worst thing you can do before an event is run 7 days a week.  You will walk and in the worst case injure yourself.

I think if you're already doing 15k long runs regularly, I think you're ready to train for a HM.  How you train depends on that your goal is: Finish, finish without walking, finish under 2hrs, finish at Kipchoge's marathon pace?  Running in zone 3 do you mean your own personal pace zone or HR zone? Your terminology is really confusing.  Personally I feel that if a plan tells you to do 10x400 and you can only do 3x400 - then you're following the wrong plan for you.
*
Hi

Good to know that you are training well. Good progress.

I did not say "i can only do 3x400 repeat".. what i am saying is that one may need to adapt the training to one's capability without injuries. Yes agree with you that some people get injuries from following a plan, unless one train under a certified coach.

Yes.. there are many different terminology depending on different viewpoint, what i mean by zone 3 is HR zone 3 which is about 70% to 80% max HR.

I am not a "real runner who target few races per year 😂", and I am not a coach and I am not selling any "snake oil" or coaching service or running event 😂...just sharing with fellow hobbist... i enjoy running, not into racing.


Kidicarus
post Nov 28 2018, 12:38 PM

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QUOTE(hondaracer @ Nov 28 2018, 12:03 PM)
Hi

Good to know that you are training well. Good progress.

I did not say "i can only do 3x400 repeat".. what i am saying is that one may need to adapt the training to one's capability without injuries. Yes agree with you that some people get injuries from following a plan, unless one train under a certified coach.

Yes.. there are many different terminology depending on different viewpoint, what i mean by zone 3 is HR zone 3 which is about 70% to 80% max HR.

I am not a "real runner who target few races per year 😂", and I am not a coach and I am not selling any "snake oil" or coaching service or running event 😂...just sharing with fellow hobbist... i enjoy running, not into racing.
*
Haha I have no illusions of actually making it onto the podium. Still need to have some sort of basic plan though. After all we're here to improve our running.

One thing that is very satisfying for me is seeing the improvement in my average heart rate. I've been doing most of my runs at zone 2 last few months for me is 132-150bpm and it's definitely helped me improve my recovery, weekly mileage, pace and to lower my average heart rate all at the same time. Otherwise I don't think i'd be able to manage the extra swimming, biking and strength training.
hondaracer
post Nov 28 2018, 12:41 PM

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QUOTE(LittleSmarty @ Nov 27 2018, 03:21 PM)
Thank you so much for all the advices. I think muscle endurance is very crucial for my upcoming Ultra..I ran HM last year, I can keep my pace steadily till 15km but then my leg feel like giving up altho I can still speak and breathe smoothly.
*
Hi,

Good to know you finish the HM last year. Great you can hold your pace steady till 15k.

Some people have good cardio, seems you have... can still speak & breath smoothly... Some have high HR like 90% max HR, even though, they can speak and breath smoothly.

As for me, my legs are fine till 15k to 18k, if i keep avg pace around 8 min/km at that range of distance but my HR keep inching upwards 🤣🤣🤣... never tried running/training at 25k to 30k distance...

Perhaps we can do a group slow run, after you complete your first ultra race early next year. Are you in KL?
hondaracer
post Nov 28 2018, 12:52 PM

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QUOTE(Kidicarus @ Nov 28 2018, 12:38 PM)
Haha I have no illusions of actually making it onto the podium.  Still need to have some sort of basic plan though.  After all we're here to improve our running.

One thing that is very satisfying for me is seeing the improvement in my average heart rate.  I've been doing most of my runs at zone 2 last few months for me is 132-150bpm and it's definitely helped me improve my recovery, weekly mileage, pace and to lower my average heart rate all at the same time.  Otherwise I don't think i'd be able to manage the extra swimming, biking and strength training.
*
Hi.

You are doing well already... doing "ironman" is really hard 🤣. But you are training well.. at 40 ish. Good to meet you... i am 50 ish 🤣🤣🤣..

Looking for new hobbist runner to run with....🤣🤣🤣... scared to mix with the sub 5 or sub 4 pace runners... i noticed most people run in groups when they enter trails... not safe to run in 2-3 person nanti find gang of 10 immigrants with parang... dead di 😱😱😱..

Hard to find a running group to do long run... same level of experience, similar training schedule.

I dun do biking n swimming... but i do some gym so that is why i say i am "not a real runner" 😂😂

Are you in KL?
Kidicarus
post Nov 28 2018, 01:09 PM

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QUOTE(hondaracer @ Nov 28 2018, 12:52 PM)
Hi.

You are doing well already... doing "ironman" is really hard 🤣. But you are training well.. at 40 ish. Good to meet you... i am 50 ish 🤣🤣🤣..

Looking for new hobbist runner to run with....🤣🤣🤣... scared to mix with the sub 5 or sub 4 pace runners...  i noticed most people run in groups when they enter trails... not safe to run in 2-3 person nanti find gang of 10 immigrants with parang... dead di 😱😱😱..

Hard to find a running group to do long run... same level of experience, similar training schedule.

I dun do biking n swimming... but i do some gym so that is why i say i am "not a real runner" 😂😂

Are you in KL?
*
I live in puchong. Yep, finding people at the right level to train with is difficult. I work full time and my job involves travelling. Consistency is the hardest thing for me. Curi curi exercise whenever I can.

I swim about 2k 3 times per week after i drop my kid at school and before work. I have no doubt that it has contributed greatly to my overall fitness.

Also just wanted to add age is no barrier. There's this lady i know who's in her 50s and just did the full ironman on an 18hour per week training schedule. her 10k pace is 5:30/km.


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