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 Chinese School v. International School - pros/cons, Tell me your personal experiences

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aaron1717
post Jun 23 2016, 03:26 PM

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QUOTE(kwackers @ Jun 23 2016, 02:07 PM)
You're generalizing as much as the people to whose comments you're overreacting.

I can tell you from my own experience in recruiting fresh grads that plenty of top-performing Chinese students were rejected, due to either their poor command of English or their inability/unwillingness to speak up or project any sort of impression about themselves.

I'm not singling out the Chinese students; I'd say that easily 90% of the fresh grads I interviewed couldn't articulate their thoughts or express them clearly in English. 

What v1n0d mentioned in their first post is pretty consistent with the general perception on kids who attend the Chinese/national system.
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Generally, it also comes to your own experience while other employers may facing different perspectives than you? My friends who came out from Chinese education secondary school doesn't seems having any trouble of finding a job in US or Europe's MNCs or a company where english is their main communication language...

although I do agree to a certain extent that they are unwilling to share their thoughts due to the typical Chinese mentality, but there are exceptions as well...
truth_warrior
post Jun 23 2016, 04:37 PM

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Is Chinese still useful in Malaysia?
mothangel
post Jun 23 2016, 04:44 PM

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doesnt matter what school really if parents just focus on work come back pat 2 times your kid and go to bed.
v1n0d
post Jun 23 2016, 04:55 PM

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QUOTE(Vape On @ Jun 23 2016, 12:27 PM)
i dont see what is the problem with EQ. Can you share more?
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The EQ problem I referred to is their general inability to get along with others. From what I see, it boils down to two factors - the language barrier, and the cultural divide. Whenever I pair up Chinese-ed and non-Chinese-ed students for group assignments, the group member feedback forms tend to indicate the same thing - they are either not keen to contribute, or not active in discussions, sometimes both.


QUOTE(Vape On @ Jun 23 2016, 12:27 PM)
So what about those from tamil/malay school?
About the talkative part.

Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools because they have to say something.

From western man. Plato
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There are no secondary Tamil schools. Most Tamil school students end up in a national secondary school. Also, note that I mentioned communicative, not talkative. Chinese-ed students are talkative as well. They're not afraid to talk when it comes to chit chat. They are however generally afraid to share their opinion in discussions related to the subject matter. I firmly believe that a lot of this behavior stems from the fact that they are so used to the "teacher is always right" treatment.


QUOTE(Vape On @ Jun 23 2016, 12:37 PM)
People like vinod is not helping. Perhaps he can share more on his background and real example.
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As mentioned in my earlier post, I'm lecture at the diploma and degree level. I currently teach at a private university in Malaysia, though I have taught at other public and private institutes over the last 8 years. I speak from an educator's standpoint based on the students I meet on the job. With respect to the discussion at hand, I teach Mathematics 101, which is one of the first core subjects all freshmen take. A large portion of the students that take my course are those from Chinese independent schools, having just completed their UEC. The rest consist of SPM and O-Levels leavers, with a larger portion of these two being the local exam. My opinions in this thread are based purely on my experience teaching and observing these young adults in a classroom setting.

QUOTE(Vape On @ Jun 23 2016, 01:13 PM)
English proficiency is weaker than international school. But i wont trade 2 languages for 1.
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When their spoken and written English is so poor that it can't be used for professional communication, that's not trading 2 languages for one. It's trading one language for another. To be fluent at a language one has to practice it enough, and unless the student speaks English outside of the classroom, they just do not get enough exposure at Chinese schools. This is why I favor migrating from Chinese primary to international secondary - it gives the student enough time to readjust to the cultural shift and improve their English proficiency before they head off to university. This is especially critical to those students who come from a Chinese-speaking family as they don't get the required language practice at home. Sure, they can break out of their shell and improve their English at university, but by then it's usually too late to make a significant impact without putting a lot of undue stress on the student.

I can see that you're a little offended by my views in the previous posts, but there's really no need to be. This is a discussion, not an argument. Please take my comments as constructive criticism, whereby I'm just pointing out the pitfalls in the current system and suggesting the best possible route for TS based on my experience.

This post has been edited by v1n0d: Jun 23 2016, 04:56 PM
oe_kintaro
post Jun 24 2016, 09:55 AM

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QUOTE(kpfun @ Jun 23 2016, 02:18 PM)
You are right.

Today's folks are generally more wealthy. They are not looking for money in return. They want the real care from children's heart.

As said in my story, the daughter took 2 months off for caring her sick father, is a very touching example. Her losing incomes of the 2 months can employ dozens nurses to do the same care.
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angmoh parent would probably say, "thanks for your concern, but don't you have better things to do?"
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kpfun
post Jun 24 2016, 10:11 AM

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QUOTE(oe_kintaro @ Jun 24 2016, 09:55 AM)
angmoh parent would probably say, "thanks for your concern, but don't you have better things to do?"
laugh.gif
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I love your reply.
oe_kintaro
post Jun 24 2016, 10:18 AM

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QUOTE(v1n0d @ Jun 23 2016, 04:55 PM)
The EQ problem I referred to is their general inability to get along with others. From what I see, it boils down to two factors - the language barrier, and the cultural divide. Whenever I pair up Chinese-ed and non-Chinese-ed students for group assignments, the group member feedback forms tend to indicate the same thing - they are either not keen to contribute, or not active in discussions, sometimes both.
There are no secondary Tamil schools. Most Tamil school students end up in a national secondary school. Also, note that I mentioned communicative, not talkative. Chinese-ed students are talkative as well. They're not afraid to talk when it comes to chit chat. They are however generally afraid to share their opinion in discussions related to the subject matter. I firmly believe that a lot of this behavior stems from the fact that they are so used to the "teacher is always right" treatment.
As mentioned in my earlier post, I'm lecture at the diploma and degree level. I currently teach at a private university in Malaysia, though I have taught at other public and private institutes over the last 8 years. I speak from an educator's standpoint based on the students I meet on the job. With respect to the discussion at hand, I teach Mathematics 101, which is one of the first core subjects all freshmen take. A large portion of the students that take my course are those from Chinese independent schools, having just completed their UEC. The rest consist of SPM and O-Levels leavers, with a larger portion of these two being the local exam. My opinions in this thread are based purely on my experience teaching and observing these young adults in a classroom setting.
When their spoken and written English is so poor that it can't be used for professional communication, that's not trading 2 languages for one. It's trading one language for another. To be fluent at a language one has to practice it enough, and unless the student speaks English outside of the classroom, they just do not get enough exposure at Chinese schools. This is why I favor migrating from Chinese primary to international secondary - it gives the student enough time to readjust to the cultural shift and improve their English proficiency before they head off to university. This is especially critical to those students who come from a Chinese-speaking family as they don't get the required language practice at home. Sure, they can break out of their shell and improve their English at university, but by then it's usually too late to make a significant impact without putting a lot of undue stress on the student.

I can see that you're a little offended by my views in the previous posts, but there's really no need to be. This is a discussion, not an argument. Please take my comments as constructive criticism, whereby I'm just pointing out the pitfalls in the current system and suggesting the best possible route for TS based on my experience.
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your findings tend to mirror mine. I just want to add that I believe many people in this country are making the mistake of conflating language learning vs education systems. They overlap but are separately defined entities. If I had a choice, I would choose an international schooling for my kids, along with multiple language proficiency from an early age.
oe_kintaro
post Jun 24 2016, 10:20 AM

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QUOTE(kpfun @ Jun 24 2016, 10:11 AM)
I love your reply.
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that's because I'm acutely aware in the difference in expectations between both the mindsets. laugh.gif
aaron1717
post Jun 24 2016, 12:21 PM

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QUOTE(truth_warrior @ Jun 23 2016, 04:37 PM)
Is Chinese still useful in Malaysia?
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you must be good in both English and Chinese I would say... if lets say you work in a Company going for China expansion or most of your customers from China.... without proficiency in Chinese... you cant earn a cent from them.... if you able to command both... you heading towards a better portfolio mix in your career life...
jamestc
post Jun 24 2016, 09:33 PM

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QUOTE(oe_kintaro @ Jun 23 2016, 01:30 PM)
In Asia, parents treat their children like investments or assets for their retirement. They expect their children to take care of them when they are old. In the west, the children are supposed to leave the nest and be independent after they leave for college. The parents don't want to trouble the kids and would rather check themselves into a retirement home when they are old. Their desire to maintain their independence well into their old age is strong.
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THIS!!
SUSeksk
post Jun 24 2016, 10:47 PM

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allow me to share my observation of my cousins who went to chinese primary school. their parents were from national / missionary schools and so did not speak mandarin and were, anglo in outlook. the children went to chinese school, at home spoke english with their parents, spoke english to their friends whose parents were also like my cousin's parents. now after university , they cannot read or write or converse in mandarin.

they are outspoken, forthright and willing to speak their mind. is it a product of chinese school culture ? or is it a result of their familial background? What i am trying to say, your family has a big say in how your children will turn out, whether they go to chinese school or international school.


truth_warrior
post Jun 25 2016, 12:29 PM

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QUOTE(aaron1717 @ Jun 24 2016, 12:21 PM)
you must be good in both English and Chinese I would say... if lets say you work in a Company going for China expansion or most of your customers from China.... without proficiency in Chinese... you cant earn a cent from them.... if you able to command both... you heading towards a better portfolio mix in your career life...
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Yes I agree if it concerns with customers from China.

Unfortunately it seems like young Malaysian Chinese slowly switching from Mandarin to English in their daily interaction with each other.

I am a pro-Mandarin person but sadly it's quite rare to find someone who is passionate about speaking and writing Mandarin in Malaysia.

See even the largest online community in Malaysia (ie: This lowyat forum) is in English. Chinese text each other in English, facebook in English and other social media you name it.

Seems like in the coming years, Malaysian Chinese will become more banana than ever......
v1n0d
post Jun 25 2016, 04:42 PM

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QUOTE(Faiz_captain @ Jun 25 2016, 04:22 PM)
You are referring to student from independent Chinese school?there isn't any Chinese secondary school in Malaysia
Btw TS talking about primary school.....not secondary school....

Usually ppl from independent secondary Chinese school will have communication problem but not ppl from Chinese primary school...
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Yes, I'm sorry. Conversation got a little sidetracked because I originally stated that my preference is for Chinese primary to international secondary.

Anyhow, I think that TS has abandoned this thread as I don't see him replying anymore.
Blofeld
post Jun 26 2016, 05:26 PM

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QUOTE(oe_kintaro @ Jun 23 2016, 01:30 PM)
This points to the fundamental difference between Asian / Western culture. No right or wrong here. In Asia, parents treat their children like investments or assets for their retirement. They expect their children to take care of them when they are old. In the west, the children are supposed to leave the nest and be independent after they leave for college. The parents don't want to trouble the kids and would rather check themselves into a retirement home when they are old. Their desire to maintain their independence well into their old age is strong.
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I have mentioned that point before in another thread and Vape-on bashed me instead.
Blofeld
post Jun 26 2016, 05:39 PM

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QUOTE(kpfun @ Jun 23 2016, 10:57 AM)
The 4 kids are already in middle age now. In the past, the two without Chinese education, are hardly visiting parents. They are very affordable people. They never take initiative to do anything for their parents. They are definitely not bad son or bad daughter. Indeed, they always do the best to fulfil their parents' requests. But, the parents have to ask.

It is fair to say that they do not prioritise their time and focus for parents like the other two siblings.

I just illustrate an example of how they manage family matter.

During their father funeral, their kids were sent back to home after staying a night. I can understand if these kids went back for examination, but, it was not, just for normal school days. They don't see the important of grandsons and granddaughters to attend their grandpa's funeral in full.

I was educated by Chinese education. My teachers always like to teach us, how important to respect and take care of parents. This is the core value of Chinese culture.

I share with you another story to see the shock which is related to education and culture background.

I was working in a multi-national company. One day, my European counterpart came to see me with sour face. He was seeking my advice for should he approves his Asian staff who asked for 3 weeks leave for taking care of his sick father. He couldn't see the validity of the reason because taking care of a sick father is a nursery job, should not by son or daughter.

I have a relative in Singapore, a very reputable specialist in medical field. She closed her clinic for 2 months to accompany his father who was very sick. The 2 months caused her more than S$100K in income lost. She was educated by early Chinese Education in Singapore.

There is no right or wrong here. It is only that, the education background, especially the early stage, makes someone see thing differently.
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Thank you for your observation. I have mentioned that as well in another thread and I was bashed by someone who appeared in this thread as well who seems to get easily offended whenever someone discusses Chinese education.

Of course, there is nothing right or wrong in your observation (in that context) above but in the other thread, I mentioned that the chinese-educated parent expected/forced the child to do something even if the son is not capable of doing it. I said that was very unreasonable of the parent to force the child to do something when he could not afford to do so.

As what oe_kintaro had mentioned, I mentioned this as well in that thread.
In Asia, parents treat their children like investments or assets for their retirement. and they expect their child to do something for them upon retirement...

while those parents with western values do not have such expectations.
oe_kintaro
post Jun 26 2016, 08:31 PM

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QUOTE(Blofeld @ Jun 26 2016, 05:39 PM)
Thank you for your observation. I have mentioned that as well in another thread and I was bashed by someone who appeared in this thread as well who seems to get easily offended whenever someone discusses Chinese education.

Of course, there is nothing right or wrong in your observation (in that context) above but in the other thread, I mentioned that the chinese-educated parent expected/forced the child to do something even if the son is not capable of doing it. I said that was very unreasonable of the parent to force the child to do something when he could not afford to do so.

As what oe_kintaro had mentioned, I mentioned this as well in that thread.
In Asia, parents treat their children like investments or assets for their retirement. and they expect their child to do something for them upon retirement...

while those parents with western values do not have such expectations.
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This book written by Rita Sim describes best in my mind, the reality of the so called Malaysian Chinese mindset. To understand where each commentator is coming from, this would be a useful guide.
My core values are from a G2 background but have over the years shifted somewhat slightly by mixing with G1 people socially and at work.
Blofeld
post Jun 26 2016, 09:49 PM

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QUOTE(oe_kintaro @ Jun 26 2016, 08:31 PM)
This book written by Rita Sim describes best in my mind, the reality of the so called Malaysian Chinese mindset. To understand where each commentator is coming from, this would be a useful guide.
My core values are from a G2 background but have over the years shifted somewhat  slightly by mixing with G1 people socially and at work.
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That's a good read. Thanks for the article. I'm a regular reader of The Star but somehow I missed this article.

I have also explained that both the Chinese eds and English eds have different mindsets and yet I have been bashed for saying this.

I'm also G2 and I don't think I will able to shift to G3 at all.
oe_kintaro
post Jun 26 2016, 10:18 PM

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QUOTE(Blofeld @ Jun 26 2016, 09:49 PM)
That's a good read. Thanks for the article. I'm a regular reader of The Star but somehow I missed this article.

I have also explained that both the Chinese eds and English eds have different mindsets and yet I have been bashed for saying this.

I'm also G2 and I don't think I will able to shift to G3 at all.
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My personal values are more influenced by Buddhist values and western ideals rather than Confucian ones.
While I have come to a point where I am familiar with Chinese history and culture and the history of the diaspora, and can follow basic Mandarin conversations and read Chinese characters, I cannot identify with the "so called 3 pillars" and have generally viewed the Mandarin language from the point of utility. But as the article also notes, the clusters tend to be somewhat fluid. So while I can empathize with G1 people's feelings, I don't necessarily agree sometimes.
TSkwackers
post Jun 27 2016, 09:28 AM

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QUOTE(v1n0d @ Jun 25 2016, 04:42 PM)
Anyhow, I think that TS has abandoned this thread as I don't see him replying anymore.
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Hi v1n0d,

Sorry I haven't been replying in this thread; I've been reading everyone's replies and discussing them with my wife. I didn't really want to chime in too much, since my intention was to seek input from others on the pros and cons of Chinese and International school.

You and the others have raised lots of interesting points that we've been considering. I think, for the most part, we feel that our decision to send our kids to Chinese primary and International secondary school is the right one, for our kids.

Nothing we've read so far in the thread has convinced me that they'd be better off with a different route.

And we firmly agree that our own influence at home and how we approach our involvement with their education and other aspects of their upbringing will also play a significant role in determining how they develop.

Personally, I'm a third-culture kid. I'm Malaysian by birth and nationality, but grew up overseas. I've never been exposed to the local curriculum, so I have little familiarity with the Sekolah Kebangsaan curriculum.

what aaron1717 said earlier in this thread really struck a chord with me: "... I have friends' who studied in international school... in the end.... I don't see they have any advantages when come to survival in this cruel harsh world.... instead they felt like over-protected kids who can't figure out what to do with their life...."

I'm embarrassed to admit that this statement is an accurate assessment of my own life. My wife also has friends and acquaintances who are products of International schools, for whom this statement also applies.

You can understand why we want to avoid our kids from going down the same path; the best idea we could come up with was to send them to Chinese school in the hopes of developing self-reliance and discipline.

v1n0d
post Jun 27 2016, 11:08 AM

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QUOTE(kwackers @ Jun 27 2016, 09:28 AM)
Hi v1n0d,

Sorry I haven't been replying in this thread; I've been reading everyone's replies and discussing them with my wife.  I didn't really want to chime in too much, since my intention was to seek input from others on the pros and cons of Chinese and International school.

You and the others have raised lots of interesting points that we've been considering.  I think, for the most part, we feel that our decision to send our kids to Chinese primary and International secondary school is the right one, for our kids.

Nothing we've read so far in the thread has convinced me that they'd be better off with a different route.

And we firmly agree that our own influence at home and how we approach our involvement with their education and other aspects of their upbringing will also play a significant role in determining how they develop.

Personally, I'm a third-culture kid.  I'm Malaysian by birth and nationality, but grew up overseas.  I've never been exposed to the local curriculum, so I have little familiarity with the Sekolah Kebangsaan curriculum.

what aaron1717 said earlier in this thread really struck a chord with me: "... I have friends' who studied in international school... in the end.... I don't see they have any advantages when come to survival in this cruel harsh world.... instead they felt like over-protected kids who can't figure out what to do with their life...."

I'm embarrassed to admit that this statement is an accurate assessment of my own life.  My wife also has friends and acquaintances who are products of International schools, for whom this statement also applies. 

You can understand why we want to avoid our kids from going down the same path; the best idea we could come up with was to send them to Chinese school in the hopes of developing self-reliance and discipline.
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Personally, I believe we all try to improve on our parents' parenting practices. Regardless if whichever route you choose, make it a point to meet with your children's teachers on a regular basis. Find out about what can be done at home to make the entire education process smoother. Also, don't forget to speak to your children themselves. They need to be comfortable talking with you about any issues they have. icon_rolleyes.gif

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