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 Something wrong with my MCB, Outside fuse always blown; MCB not trip

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weikee
post Jun 13 2016, 12:32 PM

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Which fuse? the one beside the meter?

- Your's is 3 phase or single phase
- What is usually turned on? like the incident this morning?


weikee
post Jun 13 2016, 01:58 PM

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QUOTE(aeran @ Jun 13 2016, 12:37 PM)
Forgot to add, I have already replaced everything in the MCB box after it happened the second time.
I think its single phase. Nothing unusual switched on.
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If I am not mistaken, the fuse beside the meter is slow blow fuse (if its the one beside the meter), it take hell lots of current or high spark of voltage to blow that fused (shorting is one of the method). Or long use of overloading to blow that fused (Long as in > few second).

<Assuming your internal wiring are working> your's situation, the outside fuse blow at random time and internal fused box not trip, and internal Main switch (also fused protected) not blow / trip. Could happen if somethings / animal move a loose wire in between the meter and fused box inside.



weikee
post Jun 13 2016, 04:49 PM

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QUOTE(Richard @ Jun 13 2016, 03:38 PM)
You're describing a direct short circuit (Live to Neutral).. If you're sure the DB isolator is off then the cable  fault is between the kWh meter to the DB..

Have you had any renovation work done recently? Or anyone drive nails into walls ??

They might have accidentally driven a nail into the Live/Neutral cables thus blowing out your fuse..
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If shorted, but not trip TS will be able to enjoy HIGH electric bill, but before that a fire may also happen if the fuse are not blow.


weikee
post Jun 13 2016, 04:51 PM

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QUOTE(aeran @ Jun 13 2016, 03:31 PM)
Yes; already off all MCB. When inserting the new fuse, sparks come out and the fuse blow.
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Something have shorted.. If not it won't spark. Perhaps someone stealing your electric, or internal got shorted. Check how fast your meter going (if LED is faster the blink mean high consumption, if analog you see it turn like F1)
weikee
post Jun 13 2016, 04:52 PM

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Or did you do "creative" wiring to have your bill reduced?
weikee
post Jun 13 2016, 06:51 PM

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QUOTE(Richard @ Jun 13 2016, 05:01 PM)
I have no idea what you are talking about..  do you?
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If the live is shorted with resistance it will have current drain, that mean energy used, if the heat build up it will have bbqing.
weikee
post Jun 13 2016, 07:10 PM

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QUOTE(Richard @ Jun 13 2016, 07:01 PM)
you're saying a slow thermal buildup short circuit as in the case of indirect conductivity (surface dust, liquid and conductive flesh)..
but Aeran typed "already off all MCB. When inserting the new fuse, sparks come out and the fuse blow" that describes an instantaneous short circuit..

Anyway the easiest way to check is to disconnect both ends of Live Neutral and check for continuity between the two.. 
If there's continuity then its a direct short..
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Yes, and his problem maybe in between the meter and mcb main fuse/switch. That possible explain even after switch off all mcb it still have spark. Possible some shorting between there, or someone stealing electric, or maybe did some creative wiring to bypass meter.
weikee
post Jun 14 2016, 09:28 AM

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QUOTE(aeran @ Jun 14 2016, 09:09 AM)
Guys, finally can get electrician to come and see this morning. Will update later.

No; I'm not using any 'creative' wiring to bypass meter. Though previously I do notice the meter tend to spin a bit fast.
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Hope you find the problem.
weikee
post Jun 15 2016, 05:04 PM

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QUOTE(aeran @ Jun 15 2016, 02:40 PM)
Update: Confirm wire between meter and MCB was shorted.
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That is good to know you found the problem. Lucky it didn't catch fire. I hope the TNB bill won't go crazy, since is a temporary short / resistance shorted could eat up lots of energy.

Didn't you feel light or some of your equipment behaving? Assuming is resistance shorted, voltage into your house very likely will be way below 230v
weikee
post Jun 16 2016, 12:12 AM

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QUOTE(Richard @ Jun 15 2016, 11:17 PM)
you are one cuckoo fella..  people say incoming live/neutral already confirm short blow fuse still say resistance short, talk voltage ?? Pls stop talking cock !!! 

Already blow fuse means no more supply !!  You talk what !!
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If his house had fuse blow only sometime and not always is either a resistance short or expose short when movement happen. and If all MCB are trip are up Meter will not run, this only happen because of leakage due to lousy insulation or faulty meter, if leakage are major it will cause voltage drop. During my college time, i been working in factory and old house wiring and seen many of such cases.


QUOTE(aeran @ Jun 13 2016, 10:33 AM)
Hi all,

Lately my house always suffer power trip randomly; e.g. not because of lightning or switch on appliance. Example; this morning around 4am power trip again.

MCB/ELCB did not trip; but the outside fuse near TNB meter blown. Always happened this way. Usually I replaced this fuse; but it will randomly happened again.

Any idea why it trip this way? And is it normal if I switch off MCB but TNB meter still show movement (very slow)?
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QUOTE(aeran @ Jun 14 2016, 09:09 AM)
Guys, finally can get electrician to come and see this morning. Will update later.

No; I'm not using any 'creative' wiring to bypass meter. Though previously I do notice the meter tend to spin a bit fast.
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weikee
post Jun 16 2016, 08:51 AM

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QUOTE(ozak @ Jun 16 2016, 08:41 AM)
By right, the MCB should trip 1st.

Time to change the MCB.
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It may not trip the main switch if happen between the meter and main switch . Most common happen with old houses with 3 phase meter at gate pillar when underground cable is damage.
weikee
post Jun 16 2016, 09:16 AM

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QUOTE(ozak @ Jun 16 2016, 09:00 AM)
Not TS case. But aeiou228 case.

MCB won't trip if the short circuit happen before the MCB incoming.

While aeiou228 case is after the MCB. Since the MCB have lower Amp rating than the fuse, it should trip 1st before the fuse.
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Ok, if is extended from inside the MCB yes, if its extended from the meter will blow the main fuse..

This post has been edited by weikee: Jun 16 2016, 09:17 AM
weikee
post Jun 16 2016, 12:35 PM

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QUOTE(aeiou228 @ Jun 16 2016, 12:14 PM)
The shorted cable has a dedicated MCB extended from the DB in house A and all the way to a birdhouse B. The cable shorted in between A and B.
Only realized cable shorted upon seeing a spark at the cable.
I did ask my electrician why there is no tripping but was told when live and neutral shorted, the MCB wouldn't trip but the main fuse blown instead. Can any sifu care to explain ?
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Every DB will have one main fuse or some call it main breaker. There are many possible how your house cable is extend,
01) Extension/tapping before the main fuse
02) Extension/tapping after the main fuse.
03) Extension/tapping after the main fuse and one MCB.

<If all Circuit Breaker function as normal> and your Cable A & B are shorted
extension 01 method, only the incoming fuse beside meter will burned
extension 02 method, the main fuse will trip making entire house will have no electric
extension 03 method, usually is the prefer if current are not high. The individual MCB will trip first. This is also good if you want to totally shutdown the supply from outside.


You can test it out by trip the Main fuse in the DB Box. and if the birdhouse still have power mean is using method 01.
weikee
post Jun 16 2016, 02:10 PM

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QUOTE(aeiou228 @ Jun 16 2016, 01:44 PM)
Thank you sir,
These are the info that I can gether.
1) when cable A to B shorted, the was a big spark, main fuse blown off and house A and birdhouse B no electricity.
2) before knowing the actual cause of the problem. wireman came replaced the main fuse in the morning but evening fuse blown again.
3) wireman disconnected the birdhouse cable from MCB in the DB, no more blown fuse but birdhouse B no electricity.
4) upon checking no wiring problem inside birdhouse B, I asked wireman to reconnect the birdhouse cable to MCB.
5) it lasted for a few days before the main fuse blown again. Replaced the fuse again without disconnecting the MCB for the birdhouse for further investigation.
6) break through came when a spark happened before my every eyes. A and B is about 40-50m apart and the extension outdoor cable is supported by cable pole and trees. The spark happened at a tree.
7) wireman fixed the exposed cable and no more blown fuse ever since.

So which extension method in this case?
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Can't give a firm answer base on your experience. #1 happen because incoming fuse are blow. That affect House A & B.

If you happen to be in that house, just try trip the main house Master switch inside your house. Check if your birdhouse still have electric. This will confirm of the birdhouse is tap before or after the Master switch. If is tap after the master switch, and your house master switch did not trip, you need to replace it as per ozak suggest. If is before the master switch that is normal behavior.


weikee
post Jun 16 2016, 08:33 PM

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QUOTE(aeiou228 @ Jun 16 2016, 06:07 PM)
Thank you sirs.

I'm very sure if the master switch in house A tripped, the birdhouse no electricity also. Happened few times already.
Also, when wireman disconnected the birdhouse cable from the MCB inside the house A's DB, birdhouse house no electricity. When reconnected the cable to MCB, birdhouse got electricity.
The power supply of birdhouse is definitely tapped from DB of house A.

So in this case, the wireman was wrong to say that if live and neutral shorted (the cable between A and B), the MCB wouldn't trip but main fuse will blow instead ?
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Based on your description, your main fuse may need to change. Did you replace correct rating fuse on the incoming? There is 60A, and 40A version. Same size but different Amp rating.
weikee
post Jun 17 2016, 09:27 AM

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QUOTE(ozak @ Jun 17 2016, 09:20 AM)
Yes, the wireman is wrong. If he know it, he will test it for you and recommend to change or not.

MCB Amp rating should be lower than the Fuse Amp rating. So the MCB will trip 1st.

Beter check your MCB any problem. Most of the time, I encounter the MCB is mechanical jam. 

Ignore my rare case. It is just some rare experience that I experience before. But it do happen.
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Mechanical can jam if the house DB flooded before and not replace.
weikee
post Jun 17 2016, 10:23 AM

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QUOTE(ozak @ Jun 17 2016, 09:55 AM)
Not just that.

Some is aging. If you always put it at ON for thousand yrs, and never trip it before, the mechanical will stuck there.

Some is quality issue. You know nowadays this MCB source from where la. Cheap is the issue. What I know is ABB still produce MCB locally. In subang.

In some case, the contact fuse together. Prevent it from trip.

Some is broken contact joint to the tripping mechanical. Result no contact.

This are some case that I encounter before. Normally I will CSI inside to see what happen.

here is 1 of the MCB component. This is the fuse tripping coil from my customer.

user posted image
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ABB Subang, (facing Kesas) no longer produce MCB for residential and commercial. All the low voltage MCB are build in China for many years already. The Subang factor are producing larger scale switchboard, I know, because my previous company I go there often and into their factor too.

This post has been edited by weikee: Jun 17 2016, 10:23 AM

 

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