Hi there.

I think there needs to be some check and balance of information here.

There is no good evidence anywhere that Vit C will cure any cancer. Period.

The links provided are commercial or sponsored links and non-academic. Never use Youtube as scientific evidence.

Your NCBI links are to isolated case reports - equivalent to anecdotal reports, but scientifically documented - or in-vitro testing. Even the authors wouldn't draw hard conclusions. And there are only a handful of such case reports vs the thousands of patient studies and hard evidence of other medications that actually work.

It does however offer a basis to look into the role of IV Vit C in the treatment of cancer.

Also, The theory that doctors and hospitals are "hiding" this treatment due to pharma influence is completely nonsense... Any doctor or medical centre that can prove this kind of treatment will be a superstar overnight.

P/s: I'm not bringing this up to knock you or prevent people from looking into it. But there needs to be a proper perspective. There is very little hard evidence it does anything VS the very established treatment options that actually work.

This post has been edited by Py80: Feb 29 2016, 01:51 AM

Hi , Good morning to you too.

I'm not here to convince you not to use your Vit C. I'm here to add balance to your statement that it CURES cancer. People who suffer from cancer need to have a balanced opinion thats all.

I am not here to engage in an internet argument with you either. Just raising awareness.

I am well versed with pubmed and medical research. I myself have published in good journals and have worked in a tertiary cancer centres abroad during my training years... so i know a little bit about what i am talking about.

My bottom line for whoever is reading this, please seek proper medical advice rather than getting internet advice.

There may be a role of Vit C in cancer treatment, but it has yet to be defined.

My colleagues and I have successfully treated more cancers than any vitamin C or pineapples and ginger ( yes, some say it cures liver cancer... which is my field.. and i can tell you now it doesn't)

Take care.

Oh dear, my bad. I missed your statement on the cure bit.

You seem rather aggressive in your ideology. But anyway, you at least have a better approach to scientific data.

I don't think this is the platform to discuss medical journals. Theres literally tonnes of papers claiming all sorts. Again, I'm not saying your Vit C isn't true. But clearly there's lack of substantial evidence hence its lack of popularity in mainstream treatments.

I think we'll just put this to rest.


Thanks for the discussion though.


P/S: no I'm not an oncologist. I'm a consultant gastroenterologist and hepatologist at a University, which is why i mention liver cancers. We deal with them...and some endoscopically resectable GI cancers. But no one in any of the teaching centres I've been in uses Vit C as part of mainstream therapy hence my curiosity.

BTW, If you do a true double blind control study.. the patient won't know what he is taking anyway. Both arms are blinded to what they are taking, so assuming some of your patients are throwing drugs away, it could be either the drug or placebo, therefore should be statistically insignificant.

Have you conducted a clinical study ? I have. The amount of clinical control and statistical analysis is intense. We control for all these factors. which is why only treatments with genuinely positive results will make it through.

and then it is subject to study replication by other centers around the world before it becomes an accepted scientific fact.

This post has been edited by Py80: Feb 29 2016, 10:55 AM

Hi Tham,

It's actually quite good to have a discussion with you. Provided we stay civil and not call each other 11 year olds with kindergarten education.. haha

Anyway, with no offense, I think you misunderstand how a double blinded trial works.

Both patient and investigator don't know whether the patient is receiving the placebo or the actual drug. It is the only way to control to placebo effect. Without testing drugs this way, there is no way to know if your drug/treatment is effective.. then we will be back to age of snake oil and witch craft... basically you can claim anything works without needing to prove it.


However, we are talking about proper diseases here such as cancer. And claiming that clinical trials are useless and idiotic means you don't buy into one of the founding principles of modern medicine - Evidence based medicine.

To put into perspective, some traditional medicines have been around for thousands of years... yet life expectancy has nearly doubled in the last 100 years only with the advent of modern medicine.

you are right, placebo effect is significant , especially in functional disorders. Which is why you must exclude it, otherwise we'd be treating patients for no reason when all they need is a sugar pill. I use a mild placebo with reassurance sometimes for cases which i know are psychological, and presto , they feel better.






in a double blinded study it can be controlled for. Example, If both arms have a 15% non compliance rate and they are blinded to the placebo / drug, then statistically it doesn't matter. The odds of placebo dropouts and actual drug dropouts will be the same, assuming your sample is big enough and evenly matched. Doing a good trial is not easy. Many trials are rejected from Q1 journals because they have too much bias. If you want to publish in low ranking journals then they tend to be less fastidious.


Ultimately, despite all these complementary medicines, when proverbial shit hits the fan, and they come down with a severe illness they still end up coming to major hospitals seeking treatment.


Anyway, Tham, i respect your passion for Vit C and its been great having this discussion. I will certain keep my eye out on this subject and in the event I get asked this by anyone else at least I will have some insight into it.

I only came to add an opinion, not to argue or convince anyone. I don't have time to respond anymore, but if you would like we can discuss in private someday.

Hi Tham,

Sorry couldn't go through your post in detail. you don't need to quote newspapers and websites with me.

If you can prove a treatments efficacy, whether it be Vit C, Durian juice, or maggi mee daily then publish it for you and yes, even SJMC would use it. Why wouldn't they ? We are not biased against any particular drug. Just the ones that don't have enough convincing CLINICAL data.

Cellular studies like the one you posted are a good starting point, but you need to translate into clinical outcome before you can start bragging about it to the world. Maybe one day.

If its finally proven to work in clinical practice, people will be falling over themselves to give you money to use it.. trust me. Drug companies will be rushing to incorporate it into their existing treatment regimes. I'll be presenting it at international conferences etc.

BTW, the Lancet published years ago that Homeopathy doesn't work. It could never be proven in proper clinical trials... and yes.. the supporters have gone on a rampage about how it cannot be applied in trials and how trials are not accurate blah blah.. basically they are claiming they don't need evidence and what they say is true. sounds like religion no ?

But acupuncture on the other hand did prove effective in pain management in trials and is now even supported by the orthopaedic societies.

I think the medical profession globally may come across as arrogant towards alternative medicine, but in truth, its skepticism and social responsibility. When you are telling a patient or insurance company to pay potentially tens of thousands in medication and treatment fees, are you going to randomly suggest things that have no evidence ? or things that have been proven to work? It would be completely irresponsible to do the former.

However if you have all the money and are willing to pay for anything, then by all means do whatever you want. As long as its not going to make your condition worse.


The discussion has strayed very far. Its moved from Vit C to discussing the world of academic medicine and the clash between alternative and modern medicine.... you could write a book on this subject alone..

Anyway, I will no longer be able to continue this discussion here. I will continue to reply those that PM for advice, but I don't really have the time to keep updating this thread. I won't be replying from now.

Thanks Tham for your lively discussions


regards

p/s: you never know, maybe years from now if Vit C treatment in cancer becomes established, we'll have to come to you for advice.

This post has been edited by Py80: Mar 2 2016, 10:59 AM